Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 311
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 2:26 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #311
champ-l-digest Tuesday, May 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 311
In this issue:
Re: Translating Adventures
Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
Re: TK Stuff
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: TK
Re: TK
Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Re: Duplication
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: Darth
Projectile HERO (was Archetype Clone Force, Attack!)
Re: Duplication
Re: Duplication
Re: Duplication
Re: Duplication
Re: Duplication and Multiform
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:54:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "John Desmarais" <john.desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Translating Adventures
On Mon, 03 May 1999 15:48:04 -0400 (EDT), Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> I wish to rework an adevntures for different game system
>supplements to HERO.
>
> By doing so, I need to rewrite all of the rules and reformulate
>all of the characters.
>
> Be it in HERO, or other conversions, do you find that you have to
>"gut" an adevnture to make it more workable?
My typical method of converting an adventure is to ignore most of the game mechanic
"stuff" in it and just use the plot/maps/etc as presented (modified to fit within my
campaign) and make up villians and what-not with similar concepts as the villains from
the adventure scaled for my campaign. If I'm pressed for time I'll convert/create the
villians on the fly as I need them.
- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:47:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Telekinesis (was CHAR: Darth Vader)
>
>I wonder, does anybody have a campaign running, or even a PC, that will
>span all the editions? My longest-running campaign spanned 2-4, but ended
>years ago. I do have a couple of PC's originally written up for the 2nd ed.
>(and revised a bit for later) supplements & editions which I could see
>myself playing again some day.
I've got a couple of PCs I've used in Second, Third and Fourth Edition, but
for the most part their concepts weren't impacted all that much by the
changes. To the degree they did (Striker works somewhat better with the
modern Martial Arts system than the original, and Nightshade's Darkness and
Flight powers were impacted a bit by various things) they usually benefited.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:30:41 -0700
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff
>On Mon, 3 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> > In order to get the proper effect, he had to buy TK, Indirect,
>> > BOECV, Does Body, Invisible to all Sense Groups but Mental, NND (The
>> > reasoning behind NND being that if you're levitated with TK, there's no
>> > action/reaction possible unless you have Flight or you can grab on to an
>> > object. Also NND for "tricks" like attacking someone inside a power armor
>> > suit). He was even more put off by the outrageous cost-- PLUS he didn't
>> > get Flight as a "free side effect power" and he had to pay lots of END.
>> Whoa. I think you over did it. By my figuring, you could go the simple
>> route and but it as Invisible and Indirect. I don't see the need for
>> "Does Body" or NND. Long discusses what BOECV TK gets you in TUM, and he
>> didn't remove the ability to damage objects with it. The NND part goes
>> against hte idea of NND, what is the defense? Having TK? In the Akira
>> world, anyone with TK had enough to render anyone else's STR moot, so you
>> didn't need NND. In a super's world things should be more balanced
>> between characters.
>
> NND Defense: Having Flight, KB Resistance, Stretching, Clinging,
>Swinging, TK, or any other power that can prevent the "action/reaction" of
>being lifted up and suspended with no visible means of support.
>Essentially, you could be a 100 STR brick, but I move you from any surface
>to act against, and you'll be swinging at the air...
> The NND effects the grabbing/lifiting portion of the TK power...
>not necessarily the damage.
>
> And Does BODY is included not because of BOECV, but because of
>NND- since the power can still "do BODY" as per standard TK.
It gets really expensive, but in my group we buy this kind of TK as AVLD
vs. filght used as STR (as per the BBB page 142, colum 2, paragraph 4: 2"
of flight can be used as 1 point of STR) thus allowing tekes to have a
chance to hold flyers. Then again in my group we are reall permissive
when it comes to what goes in the "telekinesis" Multipower, and pretending
it's all just one power
Max Callahan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:59:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
At 07:44 PM 5/3/1999 EDT, Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 5/3/99 7:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>haerandir@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< You're right about Palpatine, and I believe you are correct about
Obi-Wan,
> but the proper spelling for Darth Vader's given name is Anakin Skywalker.
> Or, at least, that is the spelling that I have seen in every publication,
> canon or otherwise, that I have perused, including, but not limited to,
most
> of the novels & novelizations, the RPG, and magazine articles about Epsiode
> I.
>
> Jesse Thomas >>
>
>I second this statement. :)
And now that I see it written correctly, it registers to my mind as
right.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:04:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 3 May 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Check your name spellings here. I'm pretty sure Skywalker's name is
> spelled Aniken, I'm almost totally certain that Obi-Wan is hyphenated, and
> I'm reasonably certain that the Emperor's name is Palpatine.
Hey, I wrote this at work in between floods and crashing hard drives.
And, of course, this is why I posted it, for all those last minute error
corrections.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Does this planet have a never-ending supply of weird stuff!"
Susano Orbatos, _Orion_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:07:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 3 May 1999 Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> << > << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6
> per Segment >>
> >
> > If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this
>is very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character,
>they get no points.
>
> But the suit (or at least the helmet) /can/ be removed, as evidenced by
> the last movie.
I can easily resolve this problem by making that 'helmet' instead of
suit.
> Me, I thought the 'odd' disad was Secret ID. It's not really all /that/
> secret, he never seems to try to conceal it, and I don't think that most
> peopel care that Darth Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan is the
> one who conceals it from Luke, but that's a different story...
Well, this is version II (sorta). I think I will drop it.
> (Oh, and when a character has a 400+ point 'Dark Lord of the Sith
> bonus'/experience points/whatever, does it /really/ matter whether he gets
> the points from Dependency/Secret ID/whatever or not? No...not really.)
A good point.
> so what. she has built the character with the concept that the character
> cannot remove the suit. >>
She? I think you need to check your pronouns.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Does this planet have a never-ending supply of weird stuff!"
Susano Orbatos, _Orion_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:21:19 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
>>As far as I know, Vader's history runs like this: Darth Vader was born
>>Annakin Skywalker on Tatooine. He showed a powerful gift for the Force
>>from an early age and eventually became the student of Obi Wan Kenobi, a
>>Jedi Knight. Eventually, he went on to train under Yoda and was made a
>>fully-fledged Jedi. At some point, Annakin was seduced by the power and
>>the promise of the 'Dark Side' and turned against his fellow Jedi. He
>>betrayed them to the Emperor, and helped to hunt down and destroy the
>>once-proud Knighthood. During these events, he had a final battle with
>>Obi Wan Kenobi, during which he was grievous injured (reports vary) and
>>was only able to survive the experience by being rebuilt as a virtual
>>cyborg.
>
> Check your name spellings here. I'm pretty sure Skywalker's name is
>spelled Aniken, I'm almost totally certain that Obi-Wan is hyphenated, and
>I'm reasonably certain that the Emperor's name is Palpatine.
Its Anakin, from the materials I have seen. And he got damaged by falling
into a volcano, from what I heard, actually, the burns and damage causing
his injuries
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:21:14 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/99 5:07:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Akira zeta writes:
>
> <<
> << > << 20 Dependence: His suit (internal life support mechanisms), 1d6
> per
> > Segment >>
> >
> > If you are going to build him as not being able to remove the suit, this
> is
> > very unappropriate. If a disadvantage does not penelize a character, they
> get
> > no points.
>
> But the suit (or at least the helmet) /can/ be removed, as evidenced by
> the last movie.
>
> If Darth never chooses to remove the suit, that is very different from
> Darth being physically unable to remove the suit.
>
> If (somehow) someone knocked Vader out, they could take the suit off and
> he would die. This is definitely a disadvantage...
If Darth Vader is knocked out someone could slit his throat far quicker and
with far greater ease this is a case of if it isn't a disad or you don't expect it
to reasonably happen you dont get any points for it ... sorry I just dont buy it
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:24:01 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: TK
> Telekinesis is so totally screwed in 4th Edition, between the above and
>the skewed cost, that I had to trash all my 3rd Edition telekinetics,
>including one who was my second-favorite PC. From what I gather, I won't
>be able to rebuild them under 5th Edition either; TK is still way to
>expensive to make it anything more than a "utility" power.
> (I also had to trash two of my three 3rd Edition duplicators, but I do
>think that the old +5 points per 2X duplicates is coming back.)
Telekinesis is horrendously powerful even in this edition. The fact that
the upper end was cut does not really indicate the power of TK. Think
about what you can do with your hands, and then reconsider what TK does.
You want to move a car? You dont have to lift it, you can just start the
thing up and drive it. Want to stab someone in the back? Most fx dictate
being able to do it without them even knowing where it is coming from
(there does not have to be a direct line of energy connecting you and the
object, just if they see the object it is clear that you are moving it).
Build a guy with 10 STR TK and watch what he can do, its a utility power,
not a power to conquer the universe with, but if you build a guy with 100
STR TK, well... you WILL conquer the universe.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:28:06 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: TK
>Well, this is one of the problems where the cost of other powers largely
>trapped them in a corner. Under the old system there was all too many cases
>where you were an idiot taking a physical normal EB when TK existed. And
>that was even without the ability to do direct damage. Given the cost of
>Energy Blast and Strength, I'm not sure how they could have priced it any
>differently.
>
>Duplication is a different problem. It's very hard to price it so it
>doesn't land either in 'too good' or 'useless'. The doubling for five rule
>can _easily_ hit too good too fast. I personally double for each successive
>increment of Duplication of a single type.
I trebel that and advise it strongly for Multiform as well. All additional
forms past the most expensive should cost 5 pts, and Duplicates should not
die permanently (if you lose your duplicate, you shouldnt permanently lose
the character points, thats absurd, my house rule is you have to 'heal' the
points back as if they were BOD).
Actually I have a lot of house rules for various things at
http://www.viser.net/~joelat/hrules.htm
if you are interested
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 18:29:50 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
>> If Darth never chooses to remove the suit, that is very different from
>> Darth being physically unable to remove the suit.
>>
>> If (somehow) someone knocked Vader out, they could take the suit off and
>> he would die. This is definitely a disadvantage...
>
>If Darth Vader is knocked out someone could slit his throat far quicker and
>with far greater ease this is a case of if it isn't a disad or you don't
expect it
>
>to reasonably happen you dont get any points for it ... sorry I just dont
buy it
If someone took your arm off when you were unconscious you would die too, I
wouldn't call the suit a focus at all, its just part of him, he dies
without it, maybe its worth a succeptible or something.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:43:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
On Mon, 3 May 1999 Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> If he can remove the suit, and never does, that means the suit can be stolen,
> and would be bought as a foci. that is the definitive "powered armor".
You mean like the 'Life Support: OIF' power that was included?
> If this was the case, there would also be two sets of stats, one with the
> suit on, and one without. there are not.
This assumes that the 'Vader Armor' actually has an effect on his stats.
> If the suit was removable, its powers/stats would be bought as seperate
> powers, not as the characters base stats. they were bought as base stats.
See above.
> This character was built with the suit being an intergrated part of the
> character, not a seperate item. It cannot be removed the way it was built.
> This is what im saying. Im not debating if the suit is removeable in george
> Lucas's universe.
Why are you assuming that Vader's costume gives him any powers at all? All
of Vader's 'powers' come from either the Force (not affected by the suit
and not removable) or his cybernetic body (not affected by the suit and
not removable), except for the Life Support (which is part of the suit and
is removable). But even so, the entire issue of the Dependence is
something else. By saying that the character has a Dependence, one is
saying that the item can be removed. You don't need to have any
Focus-based powers for that. I could make a character with a Dependence:
'lucky underwear', and he would take damage whenever the underwear was
removed, /even if it didn't give him any powers/.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:30:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication
>>Duplication is a different problem. It's very hard to price it so it
>>doesn't land either in 'too good' or 'useless'. The doubling for five rule
>>can _easily_ hit too good too fast. I personally double for each successive
>>increment of Duplication of a single type.
>
>I trebel that and advise it strongly for Multiform as well. All additional
>forms past the most expensive should cost 5 pts, and Duplicates should not
>die permanently (if you lose your duplicate, you shouldnt permanently lose
>the character points, thats absurd, my house rule is you have to 'heal' the
>points back as if they were BOD).
I think that very easily could produce an army of supers that would likely
overwhelm any reasonable opposition designed for someone of similar point
ranges. I also have problems with the Multiform, mostly because it gives a
character way too much versitility at an extremely minor cost.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:49:17 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Thank you Bill... I've pretty much given up on this argument, you and I seem to
be agreeing
entirely something I usually consider a good sign ;) Some people
seem to want to tow the party line... with regards to INT ,
Yes there are no real world indications that people think faster as they age or
even anything in our Comic Book Mythology to impy this either. There is
indications in the real world that they gain more knowlege but think slower ;)
and become crystalized less adaptable in their understandings.
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> At 07:31 AM 5/3/99 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>
> >I have been following this thread for some time, but I didn't intend
> >to make any comment. However, I did notice when people claimed that
> >INT rules didn't match what they were used for in the game, and
> >decided to compare what Einstein was known to be good at compared and
> >what Einstein was known to be bad at to INT and various skills.
> >
>
> I suspect most of the list has gotten bored of this debate, but for those
> of us still interested, I will respond.
>
> >INT grants: Einstein
> >
> >Perception Notably not perceptive.
>
> Agreed.
>
I still think being a very nameable and obviously held personality fault held
by many
Intelligent people "absent minded" as a disadvantage( makes more sense and is
more useful)
than pretending INT is actually used the way it is simply and innadequately
defined
rather than actually looking at the way it is used in the games mechanics.
>
> >
> >Decision-making abilities Notably poor decision maker
> >
>
> Where does it say INT grants decision making abilities? If you're aiming
> for a strict by-the-book interpretation of INT, this seems irrelevent to me.
>
I cant say I really have heard of a markedly bad decision attributed to the man
but hey
letting the world know about Nuclear Power may have been a whopper, Its too big
for me
to decide.
>
> On page 14 of the BBB it says this and only this: "Intelligence (INT): This
> characteristic represents the ability to take in and process data quickly.
> INT does not necessarily reflect knowledge. A character could have a high
> INT and be very ignorant. Conversely, a brilliant scientist who thought
> slowly might have a low INT. Intelligence increases teh character's
> Perception Rolls and certain Skills."
>
> Is the end result of processing necessarily a decision? I don't think so -
> the generation of a wide range of possibilities can also result from rapid
> processing of data - which is a large part of what makes certain
> intellectual types so indecisive.
Rapid processing indeed gives you more options If that is what you
are looking for. Habitually looking for the most options should allow
you to come to better answers but not necessarily faster ones.
> >Quick thinking in crisis Always stopped to consider before answering
> >even simple questions in his field.
> >
>
> Now this criterion does seem to fit the official description "ability to
> take in and process data quickly." However, I'd argue that Einstein could
> process data quickly - I imagine he was probably considering quite a bit
> quite rapidly in that time before answering.
Yes and deciding to take more time to decide things, is perfectly reasonable
non combat... We really have no clue how the big E acted/reacted in crisis
circumstances do we?
> >The ability to understand the world Notably easily confused by
> >real-world events around him.
> >
>
> Again, "ability to understand" is not a strict book interpretation of INT.
> I think it's a reasonable inference, but I think the factors giving
> Einstein an enormous IQ are also a reasonable inference of aspects of INT.
> And Einstein could certainly understand the world in ways most others could
> not.
>
Yes but their argument is E understood the worlds physics but not its fashion
styles ;)
>
> [SNIP]
>
> >In short, if a player came to me with a character who had a high INT,
> >but none of the abilities granted by high INT except the skill roll
> >increases, I would probably simply turn him down. And if I allowed it,
> >I would _not_ say that the character had a high INT, only that that
> >was a cheap way of buying something else.
>
> I can certainly see why you'd be cautious about that sort of limiting of a
> Characteristic. I think the definition of INT is broad enough, though, to
> allow for more than what you've inferred - and it seems to me that you
> have already inferred quite a bit.
>
> I've argued for a broader interpretation of INT in part in terms of how it
> would affect point costs, but others have quite rightly pointed out that
> levels with INT skills would even out the costs. All costs being equal, I
> still think that incorporating IQ and other aspects of intelligence into
> INT makes a lot of sense. It allows the simple construction of
> intelligence-affecting powers, which is certainly a comic book staple. It
> makes intuitive sense. And it seems to fit better the actual use INT has
> gotten in Hero characters than the speed of data processing definition.
>
> One further inference about INT occurs to me. Consider that the Age
> disadvantage (p. 118-119) *raises* the max INT to 25 for age 40+, and to
> 30 for age 60+. This suggests(to me, anyway) that effective reasoning and
> the ability to recall acquired knowledge are in fact aspects of INT. It
> certainly isn't the case that older humans "take in and process data more
> quickly" in your strict interpretation; we're more likely to be less quick
> to perceive as we get older - just think of children's ability to learn
> languages. But I believe cognitive development theories do hold that adults
> think more effectively by applying knowledge & experience to their
> perceptions.
>
> - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:07:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Darth
Okay, I removed 'suit' and put in 'helmet' for the dependence, fixed a few
minor errors and corrected the spelling. Darth will be up on my webpage
in the next 24 hours or so, if you want to get the final product.
Oh, and to all who suggested power constructs... thanks!
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
The Phoenicians were not great philosophers... they pondered the simpler
questions, like "If I stick this spear in you, can I take your stuff?",
"Do you have relatives that would be mad if I took your stuff?", and
"Can my relatives beat up your relatives?"
(c) Doug Robarchek
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Projectile HERO (was Archetype Clone Force, Attack!)
Going down the list fo loveable heroes, I have come to the ever
loved projector, or "range fighter" HERO slot.
While I have yet to do actual energy type projectors, I was
thinking of concentrating on the Gadget-type ranged hero, the Projectile
and special training SFX, and power constructs there in.
Without further warning, here is what I have thought up (northing
original, mind you).
Outback HERO- Not Seeker... but rather a boomering using hero.
The range from normal, to line-and-boomerang, to razorang, to gimmicky
Gadget-rangs. I'm probally leaning towards a very survivalist type of
hero who just utilizes the normal boomerang.
Archer HERO- Archer HERO... I've tried this in the past, from
straight skill and accuracy, to trick-shot arches, to super-archers (Zen
like skill, skill so great they require Multipowers, brick or speedster
archers), to the ever popular "gadget archer" you see so often in comic
books.
Gun HERO- Guns. Lots of them. Revolvers, automatic pistols,
sniper rifles, big freaking machine guns. Everything from a big clip, to
multiple guns (each gun is represented by a "clip"), to a specialized
"multi-gun" (each clip being a different SFX), to crazy gunslinger SFX
(like TK, Autofire, Selective AoE).
Thrown Item HERO- Razor sharp playing cards, round Unobtanium
shields, pin balls, knives, bowling pins, stuff that you just pick up,
knives, axes. You have it, y ou throw it. Pretty basic.
In addition to the Foci, I'd like to give these characters some
"other" powers, be it super Dodges or Dives for Cover, Missile Reflection,
gimmicks or tricks useable with their weapons...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:09:14 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication
>>I trebel that and advise it strongly for Multiform as well. All additional
>>forms past the most expensive should cost 5 pts, and Duplicates should not
>>die permanently (if you lose your duplicate, you shouldnt permanently lose
>>the character points, thats absurd, my house rule is you have to 'heal' the
>>points back as if they were BOD).
>
>I think that very easily could produce an army of supers that would likely
>overwhelm any reasonable opposition designed for someone of similar point
>ranges. I also have problems with the Multiform, mostly because it gives a
>character way too much versitility at an extremely minor cost.
Take a look at the source material though, Wayne, almost every character
who can duplicate makes a ton of guys, not just like one or two. If you
have ever played a duplicator you rapidly discover that while you can be
two guys, you are two guys of less power level -- significantly less power
level than the rest of the group and being two guys just doesnt make up for
not being able to rate in almost any area of ability.
Multiform is even MORE outrageously not represented. Look at who has
multiform, and count the number of forms they are able to take. The
purpose and intent of the power is to represent someone able to change
shape and abilities, but anyone who wants to have that with any range of
flexibility (for example, animal man! He can be any animal!) has to buy it
using other power constructs. This violates the basic Hero rule (dont use
other powers to simulate a power that exists) but has to be done to fit the
genre. You may be very flexible, but again less powerful and you only get
those powers one at a time.
Neither power is overwhelming as I suggested them, at least in our
playtesting experience
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication
>Take a look at the source material though, Wayne, almost every character
>who can duplicate makes a ton of guys, not just like one or two. If you
>have ever played a duplicator you rapidly discover that while you can be
>two guys, you are two guys of less power level -- significantly less power
>level than the rest of the group and being two guys just doesnt make up for
>not being able to rate in almost any area of ability.
But at some point it's quite possible to build someone who turns into an
army of agents...and it's very possible to turn that into a winning process.
Many of the supers who turn into many, many people are also pretty wimpy.
>
>Multiform is even MORE outrageously not represented. Look at who has
>multiform, and count the number of forms they are able to take. The
>purpose and intent of the power is to represent someone able to change
>shape and abilities, but anyone who wants to have that with any range of
>flexibility (for example, animal man! He can be any animal!) has to buy it
>using other power constructs. This violates the basic Hero rule (dont use
>other powers to simulate a power that exists) but has to be done to fit the
I don't think that's an accurate way to say it. Many concepts are properly
similated by many different power constructs, and there's nothing in the
Hero philosophy that says that's wrong. Multiform is not for similating
general shapeshifters. It's for simulating people who have a few very
distinct forms they use all the time. Shapeshift and a power framework
works much better for general shapeshifters, and I'm extremely unconvinced
that's an inappropriate way to do it, or that Multiform _should_ be cost
effective for doing it...because in some ways it does it far too well.
>
>Neither power is overwhelming as I suggested them, at least in our
>playtesting experience
Which is not an indication it's not overwhelming, it just indicates you
haven't pressed on it hard. I've seen someone design a duplicator under
even my more conservative approach, and it was intimidatingly capable
because of the numbers.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:20:55 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication
>>Take a look at the source material though, Wayne, almost every character
>>who can duplicate makes a ton of guys, not just like one or two. If you
>>have ever played a duplicator you rapidly discover that while you can be
>>two guys, you are two guys of less power level -- significantly less power
>>level than the rest of the group and being two guys just doesnt make up for
>>not being able to rate in almost any area of ability.
>
>But at some point it's quite possible to build someone who turns into an
>army of agents...and it's very possible to turn that into a winning process.
>Many of the supers who turn into many, many people are also pretty wimpy.
And you would be if you paid that many points to have lots of duplicates.
My point is in the game at present it simply isnt possible to make a
character like that. You can make 3, 4 characters at most before you reach
a point where you are reduced to utter ineffectiveness in combat. Note how
many agents can be thrown against a PC group and how they fall like wheat.
Numbers do not equal success, especially in Champions.
>>Multiform is even MORE outrageously not represented. Look at who has
>>multiform, and count the number of forms they are able to take. The
>>purpose and intent of the power is to represent someone able to change
>>shape and abilities, but anyone who wants to have that with any range of
>>flexibility (for example, animal man! He can be any animal!) has to buy it
>>using other power constructs. This violates the basic Hero rule (dont use
>>other powers to simulate a power that exists) but has to be done to fit the
>
>I don't think that's an accurate way to say it. Many concepts are properly
>similated by many different power constructs, and there's nothing in the
>Hero philosophy that says that's wrong. Multiform is not for similating
The standard rule still stands Wayne, if you want a killing attack you buy
KA, if you want a person to multiform you buy multiform. Shapeshifting in
the rules if for characters like Plastic man (you gain no powers, simply
alter form) if you want to have different abilities, Multiform is the
power. You could use Transform for ANY power in existence that does not
directly affect yourself, but that simply is not the way the rules work,
even if its cost effective or it works.
Multiform is the power that is used for this effect, and it is rarely used,
because most concepts are simply not possible for the cost. I have never
seen multiform dominate any campaign nor scenario, its useful but hardly
too powerful, rather the opposite. YOu end up being able to become several
weak characters who can barely compete.
>>Neither power is overwhelming as I suggested them, at least in our
>>playtesting experience
>
>Which is not an indication it's not overwhelming, it just indicates you
>haven't pressed on it hard. I've seen someone design a duplicator under
>even my more conservative approach, and it was intimidatingly capable
>because of the numbers.
And you played a game with this character often? Or was it just a concept?
I have seen 3 characters made with duplication and each one was
disappointing except in strictly role playing situations (going on a date
while checking out bad guys while going to school, etc). In combat and
skills situations the duplicator simply was much less effective than the
other characters, because of the fewer points each character.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:33:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication
>>>Take a look at the source material though, Wayne, almost every character
>>>who can duplicate makes a ton of guys, not just like one or two. If you
>>>have ever played a duplicator you rapidly discover that while you can be
>>>two guys, you are two guys of less power level -- significantly less power
>>>level than the rest of the group and being two guys just doesnt make up for
>>>not being able to rate in almost any area of ability.
>>
>>But at some point it's quite possible to build someone who turns into an
>>army of agents...and it's very possible to turn that into a winning process.
>>Many of the supers who turn into many, many people are also pretty wimpy.
>
>And you would be if you paid that many points to have lots of duplicates.
>My point is in the game at present it simply isnt possible to make a
>character like that. You can make 3, 4 characters at most before you reach
>a point where you are reduced to utter ineffectiveness in combat. Note how
>many agents can be thrown against a PC group and how they fall like wheat.
>Numbers do not equal success, especially in Champions.
I've also seen three Agents very handily take down a super with some
reliability. It's very easy to expend offense at the expense of defense
when you know you can afford to have several of them go down. And since we
were talking about modifications that increase the number of duplicates,
your first point is rather off the point.
>>I don't think that's an accurate way to say it. Many concepts are properly
>>similated by many different power constructs, and there's nothing in the
>>Hero philosophy that says that's wrong. Multiform is not for similating
>
>The standard rule still stands Wayne, if you want a killing attack you buy
>KA, if you want a person to multiform you buy multiform. Shapeshifting in
Except you don't want 'a killing attack' you want a power that a killing
attack seems to best represent to you. Similarly, you don't want 'a
multiform'. You want someone who changes shape. There are at least two
different powers that represent this, and the choice of the best one is
subjective.
>the rules if for characters like Plastic man (you gain no powers, simply
>alter form) if you want to have different abilities, Multiform is the
>power. You could use Transform for ANY power in existence that does not
Nonsense. If you want powers you can just as legitimately...often more
legitimately...link a Multipower or a VPP to Shapeshift.
>
>Multiform is the power that is used for this effect, and it is rarely used,
>because most concepts are simply not possible for the cost. I have never
Or because it was never intended for broad band shapeshifters in the first
place, which is the case.
>seen multiform dominate any campaign nor scenario, its useful but hardly
>too powerful, rather the opposite. YOu end up being able to become several
>weak characters who can barely compete.
it's very easy to build a selection of three or four multiforms that are
ideal for certain situations, and move abilities you won't need in those
situations into other characters. I've got one in my current campaign.
>>Which is not an indication it's not overwhelming, it just indicates you
>>haven't pressed on it hard. I've seen someone design a duplicator under
>>even my more conservative approach, and it was intimidatingly capable
>>because of the numbers.
>
>And you played a game with this character often? Or was it just a concept?
I didn't allow it to be played. It was too obviously unbalanced.
> I have seen 3 characters made with duplication and each one was
>disappointing except in strictly role playing situations (going on a date
>while checking out bad guys while going to school, etc). In combat and
>skills situations the duplicator simply was much less effective than the
>other characters, because of the fewer points each character.
>
Since in the example situation the character simply dealt with the problem
by having minimal defenses and accepting that several of the duplicates
would go down in a fight, this was essentially a nonstarter. He had enough
defenses they wouldn't die, but no more. And didn't in practice need it,
since a given opponent was immensely unlikely to go through even half of
them before his duplicates put them down.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:25:06 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
>>>But at some point it's quite possible to build someone who turns into an
>>>army of agents...and it's very possible to turn that into a winning
process.
>>>Many of the supers who turn into many, many people are also pretty wimpy.
>>
>>And you would be if you paid that many points to have lots of duplicates.
>>My point is in the game at present it simply isnt possible to make a
>>character like that. You can make 3, 4 characters at most before you reach
>>a point where you are reduced to utter ineffectiveness in combat. Note how
>>many agents can be thrown against a PC group and how they fall like wheat.
>>Numbers do not equal success, especially in Champions.
>
>I've also seen three Agents very handily take down a super with some
>reliability. It's very easy to expend offense at the expense of defense
>when you know you can afford to have several of them go down. And since we
>were talking about modifications that increase the number of duplicates,
>your first point is rather off the point.
In what way? Since the purpose of the rules are to simluate the source
material accurately at what point did saying "My point is in the game at
present it simply isnt possible to make a character like that." Since we
both agree that this is a part of comics in history and presently. Or was
it "You can make 3, 4 characters at most before you reach a point where you
are reduced to utter ineffectiveness in combat." That demonstrated that
the point cost of duplicate is too great that you have a problem with?
>>>I don't think that's an accurate way to say it. Many concepts are properly
>>>similated by many different power constructs, and there's nothing in the
>>>Hero philosophy that says that's wrong. Multiform is not for similating
>>
>>The standard rule still stands Wayne, if you want a killing attack you buy
>>KA, if you want a person to multiform you buy multiform. Shapeshifting in
>
>Except you don't want 'a killing attack' you want a power that a killing
>attack seems to best represent to you. Similarly, you don't want 'a
>multiform'. You want someone who changes shape. There are at least two
>different powers that represent this, and the choice of the best one is
>subjective.
>
>>the rules if for characters like Plastic man (you gain no powers, simply
>>alter form) if you want to have different abilities, Multiform is the
>>power. You could use Transform for ANY power in existence that does not
>
>Nonsense. If you want powers you can just as legitimately...often more
>legitimately...link a Multipower or a VPP to Shapeshift.
You are going to have to demonstrate how bypassing the structure and rule
for designing a character that can become different forms is legitimate,
proper, and does not violate this standard rule for me and the others on
the list then Wayne. Its fairly self evident that Multiform is the power
to do this with, at what point do you decide that you won't use the given
power for this? It is when you look at multiform and realize it will cost
you 1500 points to build zoo man who can become any animal.... which is
absurd, when you consider the utility and power of what you get for those
1500 points. Isn't that a definition of a broken power? Costs more than
its utility?
>>Multiform is the power that is used for this effect, and it is rarely used,
>>because most concepts are simply not possible for the cost. I have never
>
>Or because it was never intended for broad band shapeshifters in the first
>place, which is the case.
That is certainly your argument, but that is only due to the cost, not the
design of the power. If they made Armor cost 50 points per point of PD or
ED, that wouldn't negate the intended use, only its implimentation. This
is the case with Multiform, it costs more than it should for what it is
designed to do.
>>seen multiform dominate any campaign nor scenario, its useful but hardly
>>too powerful, rather the opposite. YOu end up being able to become several
>>weak characters who can barely compete.
>
>it's very easy to build a selection of three or four multiforms that are
>ideal for certain situations, and move abilities you won't need in those
>situations into other characters. I've got one in my current campaign.
And that character, you feel, outshines the others? Is too powerful? Or
does that player find that they often are less effective, powerful, and
frustrated compared to the other characters? Look at the character you end
up with, it's typically 20-50 points less than any of the rest in the game,
at minimum. The fact that you can be several is not that significant,
since you can only be one at a time. And if you would, shave 20-50 points
off a character you are playing in a game and spend a while considering how
effective and limited you would be.
>>>Which is not an indication it's not overwhelming, it just indicates you
>>>haven't pressed on it hard. I've seen someone design a duplicator under
>>>even my more conservative approach, and it was intimidatingly capable
>>>because of the numbers.
>>
>>And you played a game with this character often? Or was it just a concept?
>
>I didn't allow it to be played. It was too obviously unbalanced.
>
>Since in the example situation the character simply dealt with the problem
>by having minimal defenses and accepting that several of the duplicates
>would go down in a fight, this was essentially a nonstarter. He had enough
>defenses they wouldn't die, but no more. And didn't in practice need it,
>since a given opponent was immensely unlikely to go through even half of
>them before his duplicates put them down.
Just how often do the opponents consistenly defeat any of the other
characters? Was this character unreasonably powerful compared to the
campaign brick? Was he immune to area effect powers? I'm just curious,
what you describe doesnt sound all that awful, nor a definition of how
duplication works so well. I suspect in practice that he would fold up
like a cheap card table in any agent fight and in a standard stand up
supervillain battle would do his part just like everyone else.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #311
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:54 PM