Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 313

Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 313
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 12:02 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #313

champ-l-digest Tuesday, May 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 313

In this issue:

Re: Duplication
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Cumulative effect question
Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Duplication and Multiform
RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
Re: Power Construct: Bow
Ignoring armor
Re: Ignoring armor
Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Re: Ignoring armor
Re: TK Stuff (fwd)
Re: Ignoring armor
Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)
RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:18:55 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplication

At 09:21 PM 5/3/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>Take a look at the source material though, Wayne, almost every character
>>who can duplicate makes a ton of guys, not just like one or two. If you
>>have ever played a duplicator you rapidly discover that while you can be
>>two guys, you are two guys of less power level -- significantly less power
>>level than the rest of the group and being two guys just doesnt make up for
>>not being able to rate in almost any area of ability.
>
>But at some point it's quite possible to build someone who turns into an
>army of agents...and it's very possible to turn that into a winning process.
>Many of the supers who turn into many, many people are also pretty wimpy.

Absolutely, yes. My soon-to-be-revived duplicating PC, Miss Dozen, was
able to turn into 12 "selves." After Duplication, I was able to get her
just enough in Martial Arts and an armored costume that she could barely
take on a low-level super one-on-one. Essentially, she did become a small
army of agent-level characters, and did just fine in a group of more
standard heroes. In fact, she was less useful in combat than as a means of
communication (her "selves" had a telepathic rapport that was quite handy
when the team split up).
As you can guess, while Miss Dozen was already low-powered under 3rd
Edition, she's completely impractical under 4th -- I don't recall which
(since I gave up on it in '91), but I either couldn't even buy 11
Duplicates at 250 points each at all, or if I could they were each less
effective than a Normal.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 06:56:36 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

At 05:28 AM 5/4/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>I'm working on a female archer.
>
>I'd like to construct her bow as a HKA, Ranged, Range Based on STR (part
>of a multipower w/ recoverable charges) and give her a bow which is STR
>+12, 0 END, OAF Bow, Limitation: STR only used to project arrows.
>
> How much would you charge for the Limitation STR only used to
>project arrows?

In a case like this, probably -1/2 (and I'd also want to impose "No
Figured Characteristics" on it, for a total Lim of -1).

>Also, she has a STR of 13. I want to buy her STR of 13 with the Advantage
>1/2 END, but with the Limitation: Only for using bow and arrow.
> How much would you charge for the Limitation: Only for using bow
>and arrow?

Since I wouldn't charge STR-based END for this at all, I wouldn't allow
the construct.

>I'm giving her SPD, Only for using Bow and Arrow. She has a SPD of 4. I
>want to raise it to a +4.
> How much would you charge for the Limitation: Only for using Bow
>and Arrow?

Until recently, I wouldn't allow this at all, but a recent post on this
topic pointed out how a character like this couldn't use those Phases to
move, Recover, change defensive Multipower slots, or anything else, and
Aborting to a Phase when your next one is one of these skips it and goes to
the next one. For all that, I'd call it -1.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 06:58:16 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

At 06:36 AM 5/4/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>On Tue, 4 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
>> I'd like to construct her bow as a HKA, Ranged, Range Based on STR (part
>> of a multipower w/ recoverable charges) and give her a bow which is STR
>> +12, 0 END, OAF Bow, Limitation: STR only used to project arrows.
>>
>> How much would you charge for the Limitation STR only used to
>> project arrows?
>
>Hmm. It's definitely greater than -1/2, because it'll include 'doesn't
>affect figured stats', but it's also her primary schtick so it'll get used
>a lot. I'm going to go for a -1, maybe -1 1/4.
>
>Note that to be strictly realistic, the STR should cost END - the more
>powerful the bow is, the harder it is to pull back...

This would be covered in the END cost for the RKA.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:23:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cumulative effect question

At 09:47 AM 5/4/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Okay, I'm working on an idea for a creature that summon storms. The trick
>is, the more creatures you have, the more powerful the storm can be.
>So... obviously the storm itself is a mixture of Telekinesis and Change
>Environment (representing wind and rain), but how would I build the
>increased intensity effect?
>
>Do I buy the whole power and then apply a lim that you get so many active
>points per creature, or do I but a base amount of power and then add in an
>Aid (with a massive top end) that is used to pump up the power?
>
>Suggestions welcome.

I would tend to go for the latter.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:29:19 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

>I love duplication and multiform; but I don't really ever buy them. No one I
>play with
>buys them... though they may come up with ideas... that die during points
>factoring. why? b/c these powers are too expensive. how many times has the
>duplicating character destroyed or run rampant in a game? the powers are
>currently broken because they are too expensive to buy.

I've found the only way to effectively use Duplication and Multiform is to
put -1/2 to -1 worth of limitations on them, and even then you have to try
hard to abuse them. :)

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:36:47 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

>I'm working on a female archer.

These answers will apply to male archers too. :) However, I am wondering if
this is a superheroic or heroic game...

>I'd like to construct her bow as a HKA, Ranged, Range Based on STR (part
>of a multipower w/ recoverable charges) and give her a bow which is STR
>+12, 0 END, OAF Bow, Limitation: STR only used to project arrows.
>
> How much would you charge for the Limitation STR only used to
>project arrows?

So if she loses the bow, she can throw the arrows a shorter distance? That
seems...odd, never seen someone throw an arrow hard enough to do damage.

I would be inclined to fold the extra range with the bow into the "Range
Based on STR" Limitation: if Range Based on STR is -1/2, make it Range
based on STR, doubles with bow and charge -1/4. You will probably end up
spending fewer points that way.

>Also, she has a STR of 13. I want to buy her STR of 13 with the Advantage
>1/2 END, but with the Limitation: Only for using bow and arrow.
> How much would you charge for the Limitation: Only for using bow
>and arrow?

- -1/2, since it sounds like she will be using the Bow most of the time.

13 STR = 13 Active, 1/2 END costs 13 * .25 = 3, 3 / 1.5 = 2 points for the
1/2 END. Yahoo, you saved a point. :)

>I'm giving her SPD, Only for using Bow and Arrow. She has a SPD of 4. I
>want to raise it to a +4.
> How much would you charge for the Limitation: Only for using Bow
>and Arrow?

I charge -1/2 for SPD: Only for Extra Attacks. I would give -3/4 or -1 for
Only for Bow attacks, depending on how flexible the character is.

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:41:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:

> >I'd like to construct her bow as a HKA, Ranged, Range Based on STR (part
> >of a multipower w/ recoverable charges) and give her a bow which is STR
> >+12, 0 END, OAF Bow, Limitation: STR only used to project arrows.
> >
> > How much would you charge for the Limitation STR only used to
> >project arrows?
>
> So if she loses the bow, she can throw the arrows a shorter distance? That
> seems...odd, never seen someone throw an arrow hard enough to do damage.

I would like to point out that a long bow can fire arrows something like
300 yards. That's 150". I think buying it as an RKA makes far more
sense. A 1d6 RKA would have a range of 75", a 1 1/2d6 RKA 125" and a 2d6
RKA 150". About right for a bow.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

Elric: "Not long since, I counted myself without comrades. Now, I have
many. For that reason alone I will fight beside them!"
Erekose: "That is, perhaps, the best of reasons."

_Elric: Sailor on the Seas of Fate_, Michael Moorcock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 10:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:

> >I'm working on a female archer.
> These answers will apply to male archers too. :) However, I am wondering if
> this is a superheroic or heroic game...
Superheroic.
> >I'd like to construct her bow as a HKA, Ranged, Range Based on STR (part
> >of a multipower w/ recoverable charges) and give her a bow which is STR
> >+12, 0 END, OAF Bow, Limitation: STR only used to project arrows.
> > How much would you charge for the Limitation STR only used to
> >project arrows?
> So if she loses the bow, she can throw the arrows a shorter distance?
> That seems...odd, never seen someone throw an arrow hard enough to do
> damage.
I'd probally work it like this...
If she really had to use an arrow thrown, I'd count it as a non
aerodynamic, non balanced object, since it's very awkward, and it's launch
trajectory is not similar to a bow.
The reason I made it HKA is so the weapon can be used at 0 Range
in hand to hand combat to stab... and the reduced STR (from not using the
bow) causes less damage.

> 13 STR = 13 Active, 1/2 END costs 13 * .25 = 3, 3 / 1.5 = 2 points for the
> 1/2 END. Yahoo, you saved a point. :)
It's the concept behind it. :)
> >I'm giving her SPD, Only for using Bow and Arrow. She has a SPD of 4. I
> >want to raise it to a +4.
> > How much would you charge for the Limitation: Only for using Bow
> >and Arrow?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 08:01:16 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform

>>You are going to have to demonstrate how bypassing the structure and rule
>>for designing a character that can become different forms is legitimate,
>>proper, and does not violate this standard rule for me and the others on
>>the list then Wayne. Its fairly self evident that Multiform is the power
>>to do this with, at what point do you decide that you won't use the given
>

>Actually, since it's not in any way self evident to me, since it was created
>for an entirely different purpose, I disagree with the premise. And I think
>you'll find the authors of the game agree. Multiform was created to
>represent someone who had a very limited number of forms. it was never
>intended for a broad band shapeshifter as I've said before.

OK so you dont find any need to demonstrate your premise, I guess I'll let
that go. I just would like to understand why you think it is allowable and
not unbalancing for someone to make a 'multiform' character with shapeshift
and a power pool (for example) and yet it is so to use multipower to do
this. You don't have a problem with someone making the power by bypassing
the power in the book intended for this (read the definition again, I'm
sorry you don't want to agree that is what it is there for, but it quite
simply WAS the intent of the authors to make a power that allowed you to
have different forms with different abilities, there isn't any limit on the
number of forms other than cost, which at this point in the rules is far
too expensive to allow more than 2 or 3. This does not mean that this was
their intent from the beginning, rather that the cost prohibits it). You
just seem to dislike the idea of someone using MULTIFORM to do this, which
seems oddly inconsistent.

>>power for this? It is when you look at multiform and realize it will cost
>>you 1500 points to build zoo man who can become any animal.... which is
>>absurd, when you consider the utility and power of what you get for those
>>1500 points. Isn't that a definition of a broken power? Costs more than
>>its utility?
>
>Only when you're using it for something it was never intended for.

You still have yet to show me in the rules how it was never intended for
that. Its not possible to do that undermost cost limitations, but nowhere
can you demonstrate that wasn't the intent. Clearly the intent of the
power was to allow you to build characters that had several diverse forms,
one at a time. I cannot conceive how you come up with the idea that this
was intended to be limited to a small number. The only reason it tends to
be is that campaigns don't give out 1500 points to build a character with.
This is a cost issue, not a concept issue for the power. You dont mind
people building that power bypassing multiform, so it clearly isnt a power
level issue either.

>>Just how often do the opponents consistenly defeat any of the other
>>characters? Was this character unreasonably powerful compared to the
>>campaign brick? Was he immune to area effect powers? I'm just curious,
>
>Yes. He could easily deal out many times the damage the equivelent energy
>projector could, at compareable accuracy.

Ah he had more damage dice? Or he had multiple attacks (like, say
autofire... for example?)

>>what you describe doesnt sound all that awful, nor a definition of how
>>duplication works so well. I suspect in practice that he would fold up
>>like a cheap card table in any agent fight and in a standard stand up
>>supervillain battle would do his part just like everyone else.
>
>In a standard supervillain fight he'd take down a villain a round pretty
>reliably, and would have likely done better against agents to boot, since he
>could effectively fire at 16 seperate targets in the initial phase of
>combat, something no normal character can do.

Unless they pay the points to be able to do such a thing with, say,
autofire, or area effect. Are those grossly overpowered? Agents would
drop his underdefensed self in a hurry, unless you misrepresented his
defenses.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:55:07 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE963E.1F0E3050
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

That's because either you're good roleplayers, or you're bad character
designers (in the sense of powergaming).
Try this:

Multiform #1:
Normal with high INT and PRE and some 100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
Multiform #2:
Stealth character with invisibllity, shrinking, desolidification and
what-have-you.
Multiform #3:
Energy projector with lots of foci and uses.
Multiform #4:
Close combat specialist with lots of foci.

And of course you can always have multiform #5:
Lots of duplication and an NND EB, coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.

/Henrik

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Speare [mailto:geoff@igcn.com]
Sent: den 4 maj 1999 16:29
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

>I love duplication and multiform; but I don't really ever buy them. No one
I
>play with
>buys them... though they may come up with ideas... that die during points
>factoring. why? b/c these powers are too expensive. how many times has the
>duplicating character destroyed or run rampant in a game? the powers are
>currently broken because they are too expensive to buy.

I've found the only way to effectively use Duplication and Multiform is to
put -1/2 to -1 worth of limitations on them, and even then you have to try
hard to abuse them. :)

Geoff Speare

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE963E.1F0E3050
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

That's because either you're good roleplayers, or you're bad character designers (in the sense of powergaming).
 Try this:


Multiform #1:
 Normal with high INT and PRE and some 100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
 Multiform #2:
 Stealth character with invisibllity, shrinking, desolidification and what-have-you.
 Multiform #3:
 Energy projector with lots of foci and uses.
 Multiform #4:
 Close combat specialist with lots of foci.


And of course you can always have multiform #5:
 Lots of duplication and an NND EB, coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.


/Henrik


-----Original Message-----
 From: Geoff Speare [<A HREF="mailto:geoff@igcn.com">mailto:geoff@igcn.com</A>]
 Sent: den 4 maj 1999 16:29
 To: champ-l@sysabend.org
 Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

 

>I love duplication and multiform; but I don't really ever buy them. No one I 
 >play with
 >buys them... though they may come up with ideas... that die during points 
 >factoring. why? b/c these powers are too expensive. how many times has the 
 >duplicating character destroyed or run rampant in a game? the powers are 
 >currently broken because they are too expensive to buy. 


I've found the only way to effectively use Duplication and Multiform is to
 put -1/2 to -1 worth of limitations on them, and even then you have to try
 hard to abuse them. :)


Geoff Speare


</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE963E.1F0E3050--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:01:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:

> > So if she loses the bow, she can throw the arrows a shorter distance?
> > That seems...odd, never seen someone throw an arrow hard enough to do
> > damage.
> I'd probally work it like this...
> If she really had to use an arrow thrown, I'd count it as a non
> aerodynamic, non balanced object, since it's very awkward, and it's launch
> trajectory is not similar to a bow.

Sorry, having used a bow, throwing an arrow is going to do nothing in the
the way of damage. If fact, I don't think you're goingto get much int he
way of range either. You might be able to hurl it over hand and send it
end-over-end into a target, but even then I really have to doubt how
effective that is going to be.

> The reason I made it HKA is so the weapon can be used at 0 Range
> in hand to hand combat to stab... and the reduced STR (from not using the
> bow) causes less damage.

In this case, I think you should allow SFX to take over. Instead of
building it to be a ranged HTH weapon, build it as a ranged weapon and
allow her to stab for 'free'. Do you really expect that problem to come
up that much?

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

Elric: "Not long since, I counted myself without comrades. Now, I have
many. For that reason alone I will fight beside them!"
Erekose: "That is, perhaps, the best of reasons."

_Elric: Sailor on the Seas of Fate_, Michael Moorcock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:35:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Tue, 4 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> > > So if she loses the bow, she can throw the arrows a shorter distance?
> > > That seems...odd, never seen someone throw an arrow hard enough to do
> > > damage.
> > I'd probally work it like this...
> > If she really had to use an arrow thrown, I'd count it as a non
> > aerodynamic, non balanced object, since it's very awkward, and it's launch
> > trajectory is not similar to a bow.
>
> Sorry, having used a bow, throwing an arrow is going to do nothing in the
> the way of damage. If fact, I don't think you're goingto get much int he
> way of range either.

Very true. An arrow isn't heavy enough to be thrown by hand effectively.

> > The reason I made it HKA is so the weapon can be used at 0 Range
> > in hand to hand combat to stab... and the reduced STR (from not using the
> > bow) causes less damage.
>
> In this case, I think you should allow SFX to take over. Instead of
> building it to be a ranged HTH weapon, build it as a ranged weapon and
> allow her to stab for 'free'. Do you really expect that problem to come
> up that much?

Stabbing with an arrow in HtH is also a pretty poor weapon (and incredibly
likely to break)...although building it as an HKA has some merit, since
the stronger you (and the bow) are, the more damage you'll do with your
arrow. After thinking about it, I don't think Range Based on STR is a
great idea now that I've thought about it - at least, not in the present
form. It's really more for things that are thrown.

You might consider making the bow & arrows a fragile OAF - that'd cover
the tendency to break in combat quite well.

J

Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:34:59 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: TK Stuff (fwd)

In a message dated 5/4/99 9:36:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffj@io.com
writes:

> > > I disagree. NND can be used for "BODY-less" attacks, such as
> > > Flash, Entangle, or Drain.
> >
> > I am almost certainly positive that this has been changed in the 5th ed.
>
> Source?

it was part of a conversation that Steve Long and I recently had.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:40:18 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: TK Stuff (fwd)

>> > > I disagree. NND can be used for "BODY-less" attacks, such as
>> > > Flash, Entangle, or Drain.
>> >
>> > I am almost certainly positive that this has been changed in the 5th ed.
>>
>> Source?
>
>it was part of a conversation that Steve Long and I recently had.

You have to tell us more now. :)

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:37:18 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: TK Stuff (fwd)

In a message dated 5/4/99 9:36:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffj@io.com
writes:

> Which is true in 4th Edition - it's only for attack powers. NND Running,
> for example, is meaningless. But NND Flash and Drain are certainly
> logical constructs, and I'll be disappointed if they're not officially
> allowed in the new addition.
>
> Example: Master Lee the martial artist can deliver a nerve strike that
> causes the victim's vision to black out. It's not delivered to the eyes,
> so any kind of normal Flash Defense (polarized goggles, for example) isn't
> going to help. Master Lee should buy an NND Flash vs Sight, requires a
> Physiology roll, no range, with the defense being rigid protection over
> the appropriate nerve endings.

I totally agree with Flash... but problems arise with powers like Entangle.
20points of entangle can place any villain (or hero or whoever) in limbo
forever... or until Mr. Plotz Device comes by.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:41:11 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Power Construct: Bow

In a message dated 5/4/99 10:56:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ravanos@NJCU.edu
writes:

> The reason I made it HKA is so the weapon can be used at 0 Range
> in hand to hand combat to stab... and the reduced STR (from not using the
> bow) causes less damage.

can't you use a RKA at no range... like a gun at point blank? and you would
not get ANY str when using it at this (or any) range.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:42:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Ignoring armor

Okay, so this monster I'm designing can hit people and ignore physical
body armor. Basiaclly, it is not fully part of this plane, and physical
armors (such as body armor) won't help you. Iwas thinking AVLD (Power DEF)
that does BODY, but then I was thinking that certain magical defenses
should stop it, as well as things like personal force screens and the
like. Anyone have better idea? NND that does BODY? Or some form of
Indirect instead?

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

Elric: "Not long since, I counted myself without comrades. Now, I have
many. For that reason alone I will fight beside them!"
Erekose: "That is, perhaps, the best of reasons."

_Elric: Sailor on the Seas of Fate_, Michael Moorcock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:47:58 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Ignoring armor

>Okay, so this monster I'm designing can hit people and ignore physical
>body armor. Basiaclly, it is not fully part of this plane, and physical
>armors (such as body armor) won't help you. Iwas thinking AVLD (Power DEF)
>that does BODY, but then I was thinking that certain magical defenses
>should stop it, as well as things like personal force screens and the
>like. Anyone have better idea? NND that does BODY? Or some form of
>Indirect instead?

Indirect to bypass armor (especially if it bypasses innate armor like thick
skin) is a wee bit abusive. I think you'll need to get NND or AVLD of some
sort...why not just get AVLD does BODY and limit it to say that certain types
of normal defense work too?

(As an aside, it would be nice if you could buy AVLD at different levels
depending on the commonality of the defense...)

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:47:15 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

In a message dated 5/4/99 11:02:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
henrik.giese@lgp.se writes:

> That's because either you're good roleplayers, or you're bad character
> designers (in the sense of powergaming).
> Try this:
>
> Multiform #1:
> Normal with high INT and PRE and some 100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
> Multiform #2:
> Stealth character with invisibllity, shrinking, desolidification and
> what-have-you.
> Multiform #3:
> Energy projector with lots of foci and uses.
> Multiform #4:
> Close combat specialist with lots of foci.
>
> And of course you can always have multiform #5:
> Lots of duplication and an NND EB, coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.
>
> /Henrik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Speare [mailto:geoff@igcn.com]
> Sent: den 4 maj 1999 16:29
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
>
>
> >I love duplication and multiform; but I don't really ever buy them. No one
> I
> >play with
> >buys them... though they may come up with ideas... that die during points
> >factoring. why? b/c these powers are too expensive. how many times has
the
> >duplicating character destroyed or run rampant in a game? the powers are
> >currently broken because they are too expensive to buy.
>
> I've found the only way to effectively use Duplication and Multiform is to
> put -1/2 to -1 worth of limitations on them, and even then you have to try
> hard to abuse them. :)
>
> Geoff Speare

I think that any GM worth playing with would have the ability to say "no" to
something that abusive. If not, then I guess that that GM's going to get
abused.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:48:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Ignoring armor

On Tue, 4 May 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:

> >Okay, so this monster I'm designing can hit people and ignore physical
> >body armor. Basiaclly, it is not fully part of this plane, and physical
> >armors (such as body armor) won't help you. Iwas thinking AVLD (Power DEF)
> >that does BODY, but then I was thinking that certain magical defenses
> >should stop it, as well as things like personal force screens and the
> >like. Anyone have better idea? NND that does BODY? Or some form of
> >Indirect instead?
>
> Indirect to bypass armor (especially if it bypasses innate armor like thick
> skin) is a wee bit abusive. I think you'll need to get NND or AVLD of some
> sort...why not just get AVLD does BODY and limit it to say that certain types
> of normal defense work too?

I was thinking that myself.

> (As an aside, it would be nice if you could buy AVLD at different levels
> depending on the commonality of the defense...)

I'd like to second that idea!

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

Elric: "Not long since, I counted myself without comrades. Now, I have
many. For that reason alone I will fight beside them!"
Erekose: "That is, perhaps, the best of reasons."

_Elric: Sailor on the Seas of Fate_, Michael Moorcock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:50:12 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: TK Stuff (fwd)

In a message dated 5/4/99 11:39:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, geoff@igcn.com
writes:

> >> > > I disagree. NND can be used for "BODY-less" attacks, such as
> >> > > Flash, Entangle, or Drain.
> >> >
> >> > I am almost certainly positive that this has been changed in the 5th
> ed.
> >>
> >> Source?
> >
> >it was part of a conversation that Steve Long and I recently had.
>
> You have to tell us more now. :)

i would but... i've seen the *real* Blue Moon Killer Character sheet...

a

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:51:28 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ignoring armor

In a message dated 5/4/99 11:44:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
susano@dedaana.otd.com writes:

> Okay, so this monster I'm designing can hit people and ignore physical
> body armor. Basiaclly, it is not fully part of this plane, and physical
> armors (such as body armor) won't help you. Iwas thinking AVLD (Power DEF)
> that does BODY, but then I was thinking that certain magical defenses
> should stop it, as well as things like personal force screens and the
> like. Anyone have better idea? NND that does BODY? Or some form of
> Indirect instead?

I think that you're only option is AVLD (or NND if its all or nothing)...

andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:55:17 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

>> Multiform #1:
>> Normal with high INT and PRE and some 100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
>> Multiform #2:
>> Stealth character with invisibllity, shrinking, desolidification and
>> what-have-you.
>> Multiform #3:
>> Energy projector with lots of foci and uses.
>> Multiform #4:
>> Close combat specialist with lots of foci.
>>
>> And of course you can always have multiform #5:
>> Lots of duplication and an NND EB, coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.

>I think that any GM worth playing with would have the ability to say "no" to
>something that abusive. If not, then I guess that that GM's going to get
>abused.

Heh, it's all a question of degree. My multiform character (which,
admittedly, I have never submitted to a GM) was pretty similar:

Form 1 (Wizard): 100 or so INT, Danger Sense, lots of INT Skills.
(Realistically, I would have toned down the INT; I think it's unbalancing,
but it was a neat exercise :)

Form 2: (Insect): Shrinking, Flight, Stealth

Form 3: (Wyvern): DEX, defenses, STR, poison NND, Flight

Form 4: (Elf): Bow with lots of cool arrows

Anything which can be abused can be toned down to acceptable levels. :)

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:59:44 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: CHAR: Darth Vader (fini?)

In a message dated 5/3/99 9:43:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jeffj@io.com
writes:

<< suming that Vader's costume gives him any powers at all? All
of Vader's 'powers' come from either the Force (not affected by the suit
and not removable) or his cybernetic body >>

The suit IS his cybernetic body. Which makes it non-removable, IMO. which
makes it impossable to get Dependency points for.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:55:42 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE9646.93D4FD60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

Just for comparation, my current character has three different multiform
slot. #1 is a human mage (power pool, some skilla), #2 is a dragonman
(standard combat character with very little skills) and #3 is a true dragon
(the whole slot is limited, meaning a lot of points aviable).

/Henrik

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Speare [mailto:geoff@igcn.com]
Sent: den 4 maj 1999 17:55
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)

>> Multiform #1:
>> Normal with high INT and PRE and some 100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
>> Multiform #2:
>> Stealth character with invisibllity, shrinking, desolidification and
>> what-have-you.
>> Multiform #3:
>> Energy projector with lots of foci and uses.
>> Multiform #4:
>> Close combat specialist with lots of foci.
>>
>> And of course you can always have multiform #5:
>> Lots of duplication and an NND EB, coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.

>I think that any GM worth playing with would have the ability to say "no"
to
>something that abusive. If not, then I guess that that GM's going to get
>abused.

Heh, it's all a question of degree. My multiform character (which,
admittedly, I have never submitted to a GM) was pretty similar:

Form 1 (Wizard): 100 or so INT, Danger Sense, lots of INT Skills.
(Realistically, I would have toned down the INT; I think it's unbalancing,
but it was a neat exercise :)

Form 2: (Insect): Shrinking, Flight, Stealth

Form 3: (Wyvern): DEX, defenses, STR, poison NND, Flight

Form 4: (Elf): Bow with lots of cool arrows

Anything which can be abused can be toned down to acceptable levels. :)

Geoff Speare

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE9646.93D4FD60
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

Just for comparation, my current character has three =
different multiform slot. #1 is a human mage (power pool, some skilla), =
#2 is a dragonman (standard combat character with very little skills) =
and #3 is a true dragon (the whole slot is limited, meaning a lot of =
points aviable).

/Henrik


-----Original Message-----
 From: Geoff Speare [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:geoff@igcn.com">mailto:geoff@igcn.com</A>]
 Sent: den 4 maj 1999 17:55
 To: champ-l@sysabend.org
 Subject: Re: Means Testing Powers (was =
Duplication)

 

>>  Multiform #1:
 >>  Normal with high INT and PRE and some =
100 pts skills (nice, huh?)
 >>  Multiform #2:
 >>  Stealth character with invisibllity, =
shrinking, desolidification and
 >>  what-have-you.
 >>  Multiform #3:
 >>  Energy projector with lots of foci =
and uses.
 >>  Multiform #4:
 >>  Close combat specialist with lots of =
foci.
 >>  
 >>  And of course you can always have =
multiform #5:
 >>  Lots of duplication and an NND EB, =
coordinate attacks for an OCV of 30+.


>I think that any GM worth playing with would have =
the ability to say "no" to 
 >something that abusive. If not, then I guess =
that that GM's going to get 
 >abused.


Heh, it's all a question of degree. My multiform =
character (which,
 admittedly, I have never submitted to a GM) was =
pretty similar:


Form 1 (Wizard): 100 or so INT, Danger Sense, lots of =
INT Skills.
 (Realistically, I would have toned down the INT; I =
think it's unbalancing,
 but it was a neat exercise :)


Form 2: (Insect): Shrinking, Flight, Stealth


Form 3: (Wyvern): DEX, defenses, STR, poison NND, =
Flight


Form 4: (Elf): Bow with lots of cool arrows


Anything which can be abused can be toned down to =
acceptable levels. :)


Geoff Speare


</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE9646.93D4FD60--

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #313
*****************************

Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:54 PM