Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 317
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 9:39 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #317
champ-l-digest Wednesday, May 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 317
In this issue:
Aid and comfort
Re: Duplication and Multiform
Re: Aid and comfort
Re: Duplication and Multiform
Re: Aid and comfort
Re: Duplication and Multiform
CHAR: Intellect Devourer
Re: Aid and comfort
Re: Aid and comfort
Duplication Question was Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Re: Duplication Question was Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
Cosmic Pool VPP
Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
subscribe
Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:21:12 -0500
Re: Duplication and Multiform
New age elementals.
Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
Re: New age elementals.
CHAR: Upcoming
Re: New age elementals.
Re: Aid and comfort
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 18:57:18 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Aid and comfort
I am curious about something. I always used Aid for three things:
1. To boost a power or characteristic that someone already has
2. To heal someone that is damaged or drained in some way
3. To give someone a power they lack for a temporary period.
According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
UBO and UAO seem to be very limited in their scope and utility (you have to
keep line of sight, etc) and cost a lot to do something as simple as give
someone IR vision, especially considering none of that is needed and you
get points back if you use a focus. Transform costs even more, and has no
mechanic to control what happens (you can give someone 1 point of Knockback
resistance or give them 85D6 energy blast for the same dice roll if you use
Transform for this).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
>>Since it was pretty much clear in discussions of the power when it was first
>>being developed what it was and wasn't for, no, I don't feel a need to dig
>>three years of back ACs and other pre-Fourth Edition material just to make
>>you happy.
>
>I'm really not trying to be offensive, I am sorry if I came across that
>way. At least one other person got that impression and decided to send me
>several rather offensive letters and then put me on Killfile when I asked
>about them. It just seems to me that you are just making assertions
When you aggressively insist on chapter and verse on something, and cast
apparent doubt on someone's veracity when they don't feel like going to the
trouble, expect to get a somewhat hostile reponse.
>without any statment to support them and I honestly dont understand where
>it comes from. Reading the description of Multiform and the examples they
>give in the rules seems to strongly support my view of how the power works.
> It is said to be for making characters who can turn into a variety of
>forms, no stricture is given, suggested or implied of how those forms
>should be of a similar concept. The example in the book is specifically
>about a fellow able to turn into various animals.
And you'll note, a very short list of them. It in no way implies it's
designed for someone who has a large or unlimited set of forms, and is so
obviously poorly suited for that that if you assume that was it's intent,
you have to assume the designers are idiots.
>
>This is where I came to the conclusion that the power is intended to be
>able to change shape into various forms, each with different powers and
>abilities. There is a power to simulate changing your form without
>altering powers, that is Shapeshift. Each one achieves a distinctly
>different but similar effect, and using one to do the other seems to me to
>be in error. The only reason people use a construct like you suggest with
It may so seem to you, but given the discussion in many places including
Fantasy Hero mention doing just that, how much evidence do you need? In
fact, they don't even recommend using Multiform for shape changing spells in FH
>Shapeshift and a Variable Power Pool is because Multipower (the power that
>is written up to do a certain effect) is too expensive to give the results
>desired. If you bought a character who had all the multiple forms that the
>Shapeshift/VPP effect results in, it would cost many times more, literally.
> Yet they would end up very similar if not the same effect, would they not?
They'd end up as overkill is what they would. Even if the power was
incredibly cheap, it'd be remarkably clumsy doing a general shapeshifter
with Multiform.
>
>
>You make a point about disadvantages, moving characteristics. Again this
>seems to reinforce my point, Multiform is designed to simulate someone able
>to turn into distinct, discrete forms with their own characteristics and
>disadvantages (like a dinosaur, an eagle, and an elephant, in the example),
>which the Shapeshift/VPP combination is unable to simulate properly. Even
Because for a regular shapeshifter, it's largely overkill. Especially since
Multiform can do things like move around skills and alter psychological
limitations.
>on this merit, the Multiform is the clear choice for such a power. But
>again, it costs so much that you simply cannot afford to buy the character.
> If you had the points to be able to, the other characters would be
>considerably more powerful than the multiformed one again.
Several people have shown this isn't necessarily true.
>
>I can only speak from personal experience, but unless you specifically set
>out to make a character that abuses the rules (which you can do with almost
>any power construct, as we all know as GMs) the Multiform character is
>significantly weaker than other heroes with the same point cost.
I don't agree that a character designed to take advantage of the virtues of
Multiform is abusing it. I think, in fact, it's largely using the power for
what it's intended.
>
>>It was their intent whether you care to believe it or not. And I've
>>explained why above.
>
>I guess you have talked to them and believe so, it would help if that was
>their intent not to give the opposite impression and statement in the rule
>book if so.
They don't give the opposite impression. Not to me and many others. And
they certainly don't ever state it intended otherwise. In fact, the example
Multiforms in the power has exactly three, and the sample in the Champions
had one. Perhaps one is supposed to draw a conclusion from this?
>>Because it's not in the rules. Except of course, in the fashion that you're
>>objecting to; that the designers priced it so that this was not a useful
>
>>thing to do with it. I'd think it would be obvious from the design
>>overhead building Multiforms, no matter how they were priced, that this
>>wasn't a particularly good way to do it, but apparently not to you.
>
>It is clear that the price prevents that, yes, but not that the intent was
>to do so. I believe they were worried that someone would make Utility God
Then you assume the designers were idiots that wrote up a power that fails
to do what you consider it's intent.
>Man, the hero with 57 forms who can do anything. But this is possible even
>more so with Variable Power Pool and other power constructs, and all the
>succeeded in doing was crippling Multiform from being what it could be and
>in the examples they give looks how it was intended to be.
The examples don't look like any such thing to me...or obviously to others
on this list.
>>Because they deliberately priced it that way, or have said so both in print
>>and in person perhaps?
>
>If so, it was in a forum I did not ever see so, and it does not come
>through in the rules they published, rather the opposite.
Again, not to me. I would not have read that section and even vaguely
assumed it was for a broad band shapeshifter.
>>>Ah he had more damage dice? Or he had multiple attacks (like, say
>>>autofire... for example?)
>>
>>Are you particularly slow? There are 12 characters. Each is doing 10D6.
>>The energy projector is doing 10D6. They both fire at a give target, and
>>have the same accuracy. Who is going to be doing more damage? Answer: the
>
>>12. If you don't understand why this is the case, I don't know how to
>>explain it to you.
>
>Please dont be insulting, Im asking valid questions that I hoped you would
>be polite enough to answer me. Im surprised that he was able to afford
I wouldn't think I'd have to explain why someone with multiple bodies can
deal out more damage overall than someone with one. It's like someone
asking why someone with a higher Speed does more damage. Since I was
talking about otherwise identical accuracy and damage, it didn't seem like I
needed to explain that, and your attempt to put it on something other than
the Duplication seemed dubious in intent.
>10D6, but I suppose its possible if he was a gun emplacement like Cyclops.
>Id love to see the writeup, with 12 forms I can't imagine how he would be
>able to build the guy. The thing is, Wayne, you are acting as if somehow I
Do recall I started off by mentioning I don't use the standard pricing. I
just think yours is too good. As I mentioned, with my pricing a starting
Champs character could have 12 bodies at 130 points each. There are any
number of ways to build super-agent quality individuals with that many
points; that's more than your typical Viper Agent is, for example.
>Im sorry I thought you said he had 12 forms, perhaps it was 16, either way,
>I am surprised that you wouldnt use area effect against him, he can't have
>had much in the way of movement powers, at least I wouldn't think so.
One can spread out pretty well with an extra 3" of running. And that costs
a whole 6 points.
>>Most supers could be taken down well before that by most agents. And you
>can't do what
>>he could do with any standard set of Advantages, because he could take down
>>those 16 agents scattered all over the battlefield, intermixed with his
>>friends, in seperate rooms...if there was a power that essentially allowed
>>you to hit people anywhere you could see, in large numbers, with no concern
>>as to people and things like corners, I'd expect it to be pretty damn
>>pricey. The closest thing to that is a very large Selective Area effect,
>>and even it won't quite do it. A a large selecitve area effect is quite
>>expensive in and of itself.
>
>Probably so, but again without extra movement he isnt likely to be able to
>scatter too quickly if surprised and even if he does, again, he should be
>roughly the same power level as the agents, and thus a fair fight for them
>(agents in my experience greatly outnumbering the heroes). I played a
Not when one of the heroes turns into 12 or 16 guys they don't. I don't
typically put more than 3-5 Viper agents up against a given super, because
if I do, they'll likely lose (the super, that is). And your assumption this
character could not afford movement was invalid.
>martial artist who could become 4 forms (in 3rd edition, he was too pricey
>in 4th and retired), and he was interesting from a role playing aspect as I
>said, but he was not any more effective in combat, just able to be several
>places at once, which he paid for.
Given a fairly pure martial artist, I could build one even under the current
rule and beat the heck out of a lot of supers; I could easily do it under mine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:06:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
>I am curious about something. I always used Aid for three things:
>1. To boost a power or characteristic that someone already has
>2. To heal someone that is damaged or drained in some way
>3. To give someone a power they lack for a temporary period.
>
>According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
>the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
>powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
>someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
>true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
>this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
>
>UBO and UAO seem to be very limited in their scope and utility (you have to
>keep line of sight, etc) and cost a lot to do something as simple as give
>someone IR vision, especially considering none of that is needed and you
>get points back if you use a focus. Transform costs even more, and has no
>mechanic to control what happens (you can give someone 1 point of Knockback
>resistance or give them 85D6 energy blast for the same dice roll if you use
>Transform for this).
Truth is, there really _is_ no good power granting mechanism within Hero.
You note the problems with all three: Aid is technically not able to do it,
Tranform is open ended about it (though I've heard Fifth may address that a
bit), and UBO has it's problems.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
>>>In a sense, but you do have to realize that when you buy flight as running
>>>(for example) you are building something that running does not do, such as
>>>run up walls. Movement in a manner that does not require you to remain
>>>under gravity's pull on a surface is simulated by flight, isnt it? I still
>>>believe that the reason people use other constructs to build
>>>multiple-formed characters is not because Multiform does not do the trick,
>>>but rather because it costs too much to do so.
>>
>>Even if it was priced differently, the overhead in writing up sheets for all
>>those Multiforms would be a profound discouragement. No one wants to have
>>to do up a full character sheet for every possible form a broad band
>>shapeshifter could assume. Just covering a representative sample of animals
>>would be amazingly tedious, and if you turn into more exotic entities, you
>>can't even make do with published write-ups.
>
>:) I can't deny that, it would be a whale load of work, although so is
>using a power pool to sim powers, you pretty much would need a writeup for
>each form (bear has x def, x claws) even if it was limited in nature.
I can record all of the stuff I need for a given animal that way on just a
line, if I'm not being incredibly fussy. Try doing that with a Multiform.
------------------------------
Date: 04 May 1999 22:34:13 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Tue, 04 May 1999
| According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
| the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
| powers or characteristics."
That is correct. Aid can only add points to something a character already
has. If you want to temporarilly give him something new, use the power
with Usable By Others. You might need other advantages to do what you
want, such as Uncontrolled (advantages on advanteages, whee!).
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 04 May 1999 22:35:58 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
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* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Tue, 04 May 1999
| When you aggressively insist on chapter and verse on something, and cast
| apparent doubt on someone's veracity when they don't feel like going to the
| trouble, expect to get a somewhat hostile reponse.
Indeed. :)
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Intellect Devourer
[I'm not 100 percent sure I got all of this right, but hey, I figure
someone will point out anything I missed... Ayt any rate, this is one
nasty critter.]
INTELLECT DEVOURER
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
15 STR 5 12- 200kg; 3d6
18 DEX 24 13- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
15 CON 10 12-
13 BODY 6 12-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
20 EGO 20 13- ECV: 7
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
0 COM -5 9-
6 PD 3 Total: 10 PD / 4 PDr
6 ED 3 Total: 10 ED / 4 EDr
4 SPD 12 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
6 REC 0
30 END 0
30 STUN 1
Total Characteristics Cost: 92
Movement: Running: 8" / 16"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
4 Combat Skill Levels: +2 OCV with Claws
9 Combat Skill Levels: +3 with Psychic Powers
Intellect Devourer Powers:
30 Psychic Powers Elemental Control: 60 Point Pool
30 1 - Ego Whip: Drain: 6d6 vs EGO, END 6
30 2 - Psychic Crush: Ego Attack: 6d6, END 6
40 3 - Mind Transference: Transformation Attack: 3d6 Major,
BOECV (+1), Uses EGO instead of BODY (-0), No Range (-1/2), END
17 Claws: HKA: 1d6+1 (2d6+1 with STR) (2x 1/2d6, 2 x 1d6 with STR),
0 END (+1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Each RP attack requires
a separate 'to hit' roll (-1/2)
12 Thick Hide: Armor: +4 DEF
60 Invulnerability: Damage Reduction: 3/4, Energy, Resistant
60 Invulnerability: Damage Reduction: 3/4, Physical, Resistant
20 Thought Shield: Mental Defense: 20 DEF, Hardened
10 Thought Shield: Damage Resistance: 20 DEF (MD)
30 Plane Travel: EDM, Related Group of Dimensions: Astral / Ethereal
planes, END 3
4 Running: +2" (8" Total), END 2
42 Psionic Sensitivity: Detect: Psionic Energy, Sense, Ranged, 360
Degrees, Transdimensional (Astral / Ethereal planes) (+3/4) 14-
35 Psionic Sensitivity: Spatial Awareness, 360 degrees
Background Skills:
32 Know Languages: Talent: Universal Translator 18-
11 Concealment 16-
7 Shadowing 13-
9 Stealth 16-
3 Tracking 12-
495 Total Powers & Skills Cost
587 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
25 Distinctive Features: Large brain on four legs
Physical Limitation:
15 'Blind'
15 Driven away by bright light / sunlight
15 No fine manipulation
20 Psychological Limitation: Unrelentingly evil
422 Experience
587 Total Disadvantage Points
Appearance:
An intellect devourer appears to have a huge brain (usually said to appear
like a human brain) or brain-like body, slung between four powerful and
clawed legs. The body is whitish, while the legs are usually a light tan.
The devourer has no visible eyes, ears, nose or mouth. It is unknown what
it eats, but it is believed to subsit of the mental energy of others.
Ecology:
Intellect devourers live deep underground, or in dark wilderness lairs.
They abhor bright light and if outside are only encountered on dark
nights. Underground they are active at all times. They live off of
psychic energy, and will feed on almost any thinking being, although the
more intelligent, the better. Little else is known about these creatures,
other than that they are very inimical to almost all forms of life.
Motivations:
Intellect devourer's are very intelligent, and possess a great cunning.
As they desire to feed of of psychic energy, they tend to be crafty while
hunting, preferring to lie in wait and ambush the unsuspecting, as opposed
to fighting openly. Their near invulnerability to many forms of attack
does make then somewhat arrogant, and an intellect devourer may attack a
large group of small creatures, trying to slay as many as possible in
order to feed off of the energy released by the creatures deaths.
Combat Techniques:
An intellect devourer teds to stalk a single victim, seeking to trap the
target alone. Their initial assault will then be a psychic crush, which
will hopefully stun their target. This is followed by Ego Whip, which
will then prepare the victim for mental possession by the devourer. The
devourer will then seek out the victim's allies and friends and try to
repeat the process.
Other Names: Thought Eater, Mind Eater
Rumors:
Intellect devourers may be the creation of the horrid race known as mind
flayers.
Designer's Notes:
This write up was tough, as I had to try and make sense of AD&D's rules
for psionics. The problem is, that the devourer can kill it's target with
it's psionic attacks and then inhabit the body that's left. One could do
this in Hero (I guess), but it would require a far more complex character
design. The Mind Transference power comes from "The Ultimate Mentalist",
and allows the intellect devourer to swap minds with it's target. In
effect, the devourer inhabit it's victims body, while mind of it's victim
lives in the devourer's comatose form. For more info, see the "The
Ultimate Mentalist."
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I don't buy everything I read,
I haven't even read everything I've bought..."
Barenaked Ladies, "This is Where It Ends"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:33:30 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
>>I am curious about something. I always used Aid for three things:
>>1. To boost a power or characteristic that someone already has
>>2. To heal someone that is damaged or drained in some way
>>3. To give someone a power they lack for a temporary period.
>>
>>According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
>>the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
>>powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
>>someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
>>true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
>>this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
>>
>>UBO and UAO seem to be very limited in their scope and utility (you have to
>>keep line of sight, etc) and cost a lot to do something as simple as give
>>someone IR vision, especially considering none of that is needed and you
>>get points back if you use a focus. Transform costs even more, and has no
>>mechanic to control what happens (you can give someone 1 point of Knockback
>>resistance or give them 85D6 energy blast for the same dice roll if you use
>>Transform for this).
>
>Truth is, there really _is_ no good power granting mechanism within Hero.
>You note the problems with all three: Aid is technically not able to do it,
>Tranform is open ended about it (though I've heard Fifth may address that a
>bit), and UBO has it's problems.
Dang I was hoping for something more useful. I have been letting people
use Aid for this (it just is half as effective to give powers that you dont
have already) and it seems to be okay, but then nobody has had the guts to
make Aid man, the character who can give you 40 active point powers in 10
powers.... turn a normal to a superhero, given a few hours.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
>>Truth is, there really _is_ no good power granting mechanism within Hero.
>>You note the problems with all three: Aid is technically not able to do it,
>>Tranform is open ended about it (though I've heard Fifth may address that a
>>bit), and UBO has it's problems.
>
>Dang I was hoping for something more useful. I have been letting people
>use Aid for this (it just is half as effective to give powers that you dont
>have already) and it seems to be okay, but then nobody has had the guts to
>make Aid man, the character who can give you 40 active point powers in 10
>powers.... turn a normal to a superhero, given a few hours.
Well, as long as you follow the usual limits, even though it's against the
rules it's not unbalanced probably. At least any worse than Aid usually is.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:10:04 -0400
From: "Erik Schweitzer" <elschwei@mich.com>
Subject: Duplication Question was Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
> I've found the only way to effectively use Duplication and Multiform is to
> put -1/2 to -1 worth of limitations on them, and even then you have to try
> hard to abuse them. :)
A method I've found to make duplication work is to pile on limitations, and
then
give the duplicates duplication. And then give the duplicates that they
make
duplication. Ect...
Example...
Concentration 0 DCV -1/2
Extra Time: Phase -1/2
Power Costs End -1/2
Requires a skill roll -1/2
Side Effect -1/2
With a -2 1/2 lim on the power, you can have two 220 point duplicates for
25pts.
Give the Duplicates the duplicate power, and you now have one 250 pt
character,
two 220 point characters, and four 190 pt characters for 22 points. Ect...
For some reason, I've never been able to find a GM willing to let me play
Wormhole, my
character with this power. ;)
One question about duplication that is somewhat vague in the rules. How
are disads
figured in? If you buy a 100 point character, can you then add more points
with
disads, or are the duplicates not able to have disads, or what?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:59:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Duplication Question was Re: Means Testing Powers (was Duplication)
>Give the Duplicates the duplicate power, and you now have one 250 pt
>character,
>two 220 point characters, and four 190 pt characters for 22 points. Ect...
It's at least arguably illegal to do this. Only the base form may by
Duplicates from the way the rules are written.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 01:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Cosmic Pool VPP
If I have 150 points to spend on a "cosmic" VPP (No Skill Roll,
0 phase action), how many points does the VPP end up being?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
>
> If I have 150 points to spend on a "cosmic" VPP (No Skill Roll,
>0 phase action), how many points does the VPP end up being?
The control cost is normally 50% of the cost of the pool. Since that's a +2
Advantage on it, that means it's 150% of the cost of the pool. Or simply
put, 60 points of pool.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:06:33 -0500
From: "Jamz" <Jamz@ComNetCom.Net>
Subject: subscribe
subscribe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
>a 60 Point Cosmic VPP costs 150 points? :)
Yup. Expensive as heck, aren't they?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:21:12 -0500
From: "Jamz" <Jamz@ComNetCom.Net>
Subject: Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:21:12 -0500
help
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:15:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
On Tue, 4 May 1999, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> That is by definition not a change... Allow me to quote the power's
> description from the book (description, you know, that which
> defines what a power does, details its use, and explains how it works):
>
> A character with this Special Power can have several different forms, each
> with is own personality, Characteristics, and Powers.
That implies to me that if you're /not/ going to have separate
personality, Characteristics, and Powers, you /shouldn't/ use Multiform.
Yes?
So Animal Man, who /keeps his human mind/ when he changes into an animal,
is going to have the same personality and at least some of the same stats
(INT, EGO) as a human, lion, mongoose, echidna, whatever.
Hmm. Sounds like maybe Multiform isn't exactly what he wants...even if it
were cheaper, it wouldn't be what he wanted, because he doesn't /want/ a
new character sheet for each and every animal form.
If you don't want the STUN lottery, you don't buy a Killing Attack. If
you don't want a new personality, Characteristics and Powers, you don't
buy Multiform. It's that simple.
> Hopefully that is clear.
It is to me, at least.
> Are you unclear what I was saying there? When you use shapeshift and power
> pool to do the same thing that an existing power: Multiform does, you are
> violating the rules.
No, you are not using Shapeshift and VPP to do what Multiform does.
You are not using them to make a character with "several different forms,
each with it's own personality, Characteristics, and Powers."
You are using them to create a character who can change the shape of his
body, and who can use a VPP to mimic the powers of various animals.
There is no personality change. There is no separate character sheet.
Therefore, it is not Multiform.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:47:09 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: New age elementals.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE9749.357947A0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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One of my players' characters is an elemental magician who is part=20
of a quartent of such mages. his powers are of the winds, and=20
the others have eart, fire and water powers. They're led by a=20
mysterious 'one' who taught them, they know not whay. Now, i've=20
decided that, for more subtle reasons than are hidden from view, this =
group
are going to battle their masters opposite number, or more specifically, =
HIS=20
quartet of 'mages'. The idea is that they have classical-age elemental
powers, where their foes have contempoirary age powers, each modeled=20
on a contemporary 'element'. It may be that these are elemental forces, =
but
the real reason for the groups power configurations is more sneaky.=20
But in=20
any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the =
'elements',=20
and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern life like =
capitalism and
industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc cna be converted into =
reasonably=20
non-goofy supervillains.=20
The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a=20
guy with a seemingly limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who =
represents
the military-industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy.=20
I need at least two more, and each one has to be able to hold their own =
in combat,=20
preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas?
"Enslave humanity willya?"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>One of my players' characters is an =
elemental=20
magician who is part </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>of a quartent =
of such mages.=20
his powers are of the winds, and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the others have eart, fire and water powers. They're =
led by a=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>mysterious 'one' who taught them, they know not =
whay. Now,=20
i've </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>decided that, for more subtle reasons than are =
hidden from=20
view, this group</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>are going to battle their masters opposite number, =
or more=20
specifically, HIS </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>quartet of 'mages'. The idea is that they have =
classical-age=20
elemental</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>powers, where their foes have contempoirary age =
powers, each=20
modeled </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>on a contemporary 'element'. It may be that these =
are=20
elemental forces, but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the real reason for the groups power configurations =
is more=20
sneaky. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>But in </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>any event, i need some ideas for contemporary =
versions of the=20
'elements', </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of =
modern=20
life like capitalism and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc cna be =
converted=20
into reasonably </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>non-goofy supervillains. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>guy with a seemingly limitless supply of weapons and =
ammo, who=20
represents</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the military-industrial complex, and maybe an =
internet guy.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I need at least two more, </FONT><FONT size=3D2>and =
each one has=20
to be able to hold their own in combat, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>preferably in a non-corny </FONT><FONT size=3D2>way. =
Any=20
ideas?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>"Enslave humanity=20
willya?"</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:10:27 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Acceptance of Powergaming (was re RE:Darth Vader)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
>That's a great concept. I'd probably go with the Good Humour Man, able to
>change his abilities, personality, and physical type by altering the
>balance of humours in his body, varying between phlegmatic, melancholy,
>choleric, and sanguine.
>
>- Bill Svitavsky
>
>
You could even allow hm to alter other peoples's balances, perhaps he'd have
to
maintain some sort of equilibrium. You could even have a team, it's make a
nice change form classcal elementals.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:29:17 +0100
From: Stephen McGinness <MCGINNESSS@parliament.uk>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
I thought this was a cool idea - Elementals of Modern Society. This is my first
thoughts on the matter and in the hope that others will pitch in and come up with
something much better.
Transport (The Almighty Car rather than other modes of transport)
Time (People today are far more tied to the clock and concept of time
than in historical times when they were tied to the length of the day
and the season of the year)
Pollution (We're learning about all kinds of pollution day by day and the
effects it is having on us - causing disease and causing asthma
changing genders and warming the temperature)
Mutation (whether through radiation or deliberate modification this gene
bending is another modern piece of life)
Stephen McGinness
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:32:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Upcoming
Well, the Intellect Devourer went up last night. I've finished the
write-up for the Succubus (now all I have to do is the text). Next is the
Type VI Demon (ie Balor / Balrog). After that? I'm not certain.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:30:10 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
At 10:47 PM 5/5/99 +1000, happyelf wrote:
[snip]
>i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the 'elements', and no i
>don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern life like capitalism and
>industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc cna be converted into
>reasonably non-goofy supervillains. The obvious one is 'firepower',
>which is a guy with a seemingly limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who
>represents the military-industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy. I
>need at least two more, and each one has to be able to hold their own in
>combat, preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas? ""
How about:
Plastic: The combat ability is easy - stretching & shapeshifting powers.
But you could give him/her the interesting SFX of *disposable* plastics;
imagine discarded limbs and forms being left littering the ground after the
battle.
Success: Representing the value our society places on material success. The
success elemental type would be wealthy & looking for more wealth, have at
least 3d6 Luck, and would probably be a skilled combatant - it's a
dog-eat-dog world out there, after all.
Media: This might be a broader alternative to the Internet guy. This
villain might attack with Information Overload (Flash? INT Drain? Entangle
vs. INT?), have various enhanced senses, Images, and maybe even Mind
Control powers.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 05:57:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
At 06:57 PM 5/4/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>I am curious about something. I always used Aid for three things:
>1. To boost a power or characteristic that someone already has
>2. To heal someone that is damaged or drained in some way
>3. To give someone a power they lack for a temporary period.
>
>According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
>the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
>powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
>someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
>true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
>this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
Under the 4th Edition rules, this is true. Someone (and if asked before
today I would have said it was you) has a nifty house rule that allows this
to be done at double point cost, but officially the target has to already
have the power for Aid to work.
>UBO and UAO seem to be very limited in their scope and utility (you have to
>keep line of sight, etc) and cost a lot to do something as simple as give
>someone IR vision, especially considering none of that is needed and you
>get points back if you use a focus. Transform costs even more, and has no
>mechanic to control what happens (you can give someone 1 point of Knockback
>resistance or give them 85D6 energy blast for the same dice roll if you use
>Transform for this).
While I agree with you here, and would rather see Aid or some similar
mechanic for the purpose, officially Transform is the mechanic to use for
this.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #317
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:54 PM