Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 318
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 4:57 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #318
champ-l-digest Wednesday, May 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 318
In this issue:
Re: Combat banter, part 2
Re: Aid and comfort
Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: Duplication and Multiform
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
RE: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: New age elementals.
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
RE: New age elementals.
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: New age elementals.
RE: New age elementals.
How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: New age elementals.
Re: New age elementals.
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: New age elementals.
Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Re: New age elementals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 06:07:12 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Combat banter, part 2
At 08:17 PM 5/4/1999 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 04:22 PM 4/30/99 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>>
>>What about when PCs want to talk to each other? Do you let them banter
>>back and forth, discussing strategy and whatnot, while the game is
>>essentially frozen in time? If not, how do you handle this?
>
>However, I draw the line at conversation. When two players want to
>start bantering back and forth, it's time to drop out of combat. The
>players in my group are often fond of arguing with the villain. Not
>that they have a chance in hell of changing the bad guy's mind, but
>it really slows down the play.
Sometimes, if the banter is kept snappy, this can be allowed, though:
"Why did you pick that thug to blast?"
"He destroyed my magazine collection! It made me so..."
"Mad?"
"No, Popular Mechanics."
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:40:02 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and comfort
>According to a GM I talked to recently, number 3 is not valid, she quoted
>the BBB: "With this Power, a character may increase one of his or another's
>powers or characteristics." This seems to preclude using Aid to give
>someone powers they dont have. My questions are twofold. First, is this
>true, can you not give people powers they lack with Aid. And second if
>this is not possible, what would you use to do so?
I had a character who did this (specifically, he gave people Mental
Defense)...after losing the above argument with my GM :), I bought Aid
along with Transform (Minor or Cosmetic, I forget which), Transform target
into target with 0 points of Mental Defense. (This character's Mental
Defense was Ablative, so the Transform went away when the defense Ablated;
but in most cases, you could just say the Transform wears off when the Aid
fades to zero.)
For those who think it's illegal to give someone less than the minimum cost
of a power, is it less abusive than giving them Mental Defense with the
Transform? This way, it's a two step process that is limited by the Aid rules.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 06:08:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cosmic Pool VPP
At 01:27 AM 5/5/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> If I have 150 points to spend on a "cosmic" VPP (No Skill Roll,
>0 phase action), how many points does the VPP end up being?
If my math is right, you have 60 Active Points in the VPP.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 06:44:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
- --- happyelf <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> wrote:
> But in
> any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the 'elements',
> and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern life like
> capitalism and
> industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc cna be converted into reasonably
> non-goofy supervillains.
>
> The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a
> guy with a seemingly limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who represents
> the military-industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy.
> I need at least two more, and each one has to be able to hold their own in
> combat,
> preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas?
On a somewhat classical bent: War, Disease, Famine, Pestilence.
More in line with what you describe:
* Firepower
* Pollutant (lots of obvious disgusting attacks for this one)
* Comm-Star (not just the internet, but an ability to make use of all forms of
electronic communication)
* Sozialdefekte (I love German - it means "social defect". The idea is a
character who embodies all of society's ills. I see lots of mental powers
here, particularly area effect mind controls and mental illusions used to throw
civilians at the heroes.)
- -=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:00:14 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
In a message dated 5/5/99 8:43:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jonesl@cqnet.com.au writes:
> One of my players' characters is an elemental magician who is part
> of a quartent of such mages. his powers are of the winds, and
> the others have eart, fire and water powers. They're led by a
> mysterious 'one' who taught them, they know not whay. Now, i've
> decided that, for more subtle reasons than are hidden from view, this group
> are going to battle their masters opposite number, or more specifically,
HIS
>
> quartet of 'mages'. The idea is that they have classical-age elemental
> powers, where their foes have contempoirary age powers, each modeled
> on a contemporary 'element'. It may be that these are elemental forces, but
> the real reason for the groups power configurations is more sneaky.
>
> But in
> any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the 'elements',
> and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern life like
> capitalism and
> industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc cna be converted into
reasonably
> non-goofy supervillains.
>
> The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a
> guy with a seemingly limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who represents
> the military-industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy.
> I need at least two more, and each one has to be able to hold their own in
> combat,
> preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas?
Toxic comes to mind... even if not as a Shamantic totem thing... but as a
more "heremetic" elemental... trash; toxic waste... 3-mile island type stuff.
another is Sprawl... bringing blight, depression... that kind of stuff.
and Information... which would be a lot like an Otaku.
let me know when you decide what's what.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:04:30 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
In a message dated 5/5/99 10:01:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AndMat3@aol.com
writes:
> Toxic comes to mind... even if not as a Shamantic totem thing... but as a
> more "heremetic" elemental... trash; toxic waste... 3-mile island type
stuff.
>
>
> another is Sprawl... bringing blight, depression... that kind of stuff.
>
> and Information... which would be a lot like an Otaku.
>
> let me know when you decide what's what.
>
> andy
ahhh... sorry.... i must have been thinking about Shadowrun... sorry.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ben Brown <benbrown@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
On Wed, 5 May 1999 AndMat3@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/5/99 10:01:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AndMat3@aol.com
> writes:
>
> > Toxic comes to mind... even if not as a Shamantic totem thing... but as a
> > more "heremetic" elemental... trash; toxic waste... 3-mile island type
> stuff.
> >
> >
> > another is Sprawl... bringing blight, depression... that kind of stuff.
> >
> > and Information... which would be a lot like an Otaku.
> >
> > let me know when you decide what's what.
> >
> > andy
>
> ahhh... sorry.... i must have been thinking about Shadowrun... sorry.
>
> andy
No, no, Sprawl is good. Sprawl! Bringer of endless dull suburbs, clogged
freeways, and (horror of horrors) Malls!
- -Ben
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:08:53 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
Elementals are the fundamental pieces of the world. Early
civilizations believed that everything was made up of varying
quantities of earth, wind, fire, and water. (Void was also
in the mix, but in much the same way as Zero is included in
mathematics.)
With that in mind, what you're looking for is four items (though
it doesn't necessarily have to be 4) with which you can build
anything.
How about:
- - Time (That was somebody else's idea. I liked it.)
- - DNA (or matter)
- - Technology (or Knowledge)
- - Life Force (or energy)
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:18:13 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
At 11:08 AM 5/5/99 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>Elementals are the fundamental pieces of the world. Early
>civilizations believed that everything was made up of varying
>quantities of earth, wind, fire, and water. (Void was also
>in the mix, but in much the same way as Zero is included in
>mathematics.)
>
>With that in mind, what you're looking for is four items (though
>it doesn't necessarily have to be 4) with which you can build
>anything.
>
>How about:
>- Time (That was somebody else's idea. I liked it.)
>- DNA (or matter)
>- Technology (or Knowledge)
>- Life Force (or energy)
>
If you want to go that direction, there's:
Strong Force
Weak Force
Gravity
Electromagnetism
(Interesting how it still comes down to four, isn't it?)
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:50:39 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
At 11:18 AM 5/5/99 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>If you want to go that direction, there's:
>
>Strong Force
>Weak Force
>Gravity
>Electromagnetism
>
>
The "Quantum Squad"!
That could work!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:27:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
On Wed, 5 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >With that in mind, what you're looking for is four items (though
> >it doesn't necessarily have to be 4) with which you can build
> >anything.
> If you want to go that direction, there's:
>
> Strong Force
> Weak Force
> Gravity
> Electromagnetism
> (Interesting how it still comes down to four, isn't it?)
My four are:
Solids (Earth)
Liquids (Water)
Gasses (Air)
Plasma (Fire)
You can add to this Dimensional, Antimatter, etc.
If you're looking for conceptional elementals, I'd go for:
Society, Economy, Urban Habitation, and Media/Communications. You can
break these down into seperate sections.
Individual groups who have archetypes can blend very well with
elementals, such as the Society of the Homeless, with the Economic
condition of Poverty, with the Alleyways and Gutters being their
Habitation, and the public's perception of them.
How about Id, Ego, and Superego?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:29:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
If there was a character who could either transform into
representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate into his Id,
Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think they/it would have?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:35:38 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Duplication and Multiform
>> That is by definition not a change... Allow me to quote the power's
>> description from the book (description, you know, that which
>> defines what a power does, details its use, and explains how it works):
>>
>> A character with this Special Power can have several different forms, each
>> with is own personality, Characteristics, and Powers.
>
>That implies to me that if you're /not/ going to have separate
>personality, Characteristics, and Powers, you /shouldn't/ use Multiform. Yes?
I can't deny that, with the exception of personality (new disads do not
neccessarily mean a change in personality) :) In all honesty I would say
that you are better served making someone who (for example) changes into
different animals using Multiform, since different creatures would have
different disadvantages and certainly characteristics.
>You are using them to create a character who can change the shape of his
>body, and who can use a VPP to mimic the powers of various animals.
>There is no personality change. There is no separate character sheet.
>Therefore, it is not Multiform.
I guess here is the way I would say it: the Shapeshift/VPP construct gives
you someone who can change shape to LOOK like an animal (or other shapes)
and Multiform gives you someone who can BECOME animal (although mind and
personality is usually maintained). I still think that Multiform would be
used rather than the kludge if it was cheaper, and thus the whole point and
argument from the beginning is correct. However, I am glad you took the
time to be polite and kind to me and I do see your point, it was well stated.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:48:03 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
At 12:29 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> If there was a character who could either transform into
>representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate into his Id,
>Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think they/it would have?
>
>
Id would be a brick. Superego might be a mind-controller. Ego I'm not sure
about - maybe a skilled martial-artist type?
I'd prefer to go with the Jungian model: Ego, Persona, Shadow, and
Anima/Animus. Ego as above, perhaps. Persona would be a shapeshifter with
PRE skills. The obvious power for Shadow is Darkness, but link it with a
Mind Control to bring out opponents' repressed sides and things could get
really interesting. Anima/Animus would depend on the sex of the PC; Anima
might be have creative (Transform?) powers, healing, and/or empathic
abilities, while Animus would be an aggressive warrior type.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Jason Sullivan writes:
> If there was a character who could either transform into
> representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate into his Id,
> Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think they/it would have?
The classic example of this is Kirk/Spock/McCoy (id/superego/ego)
which is why those three made such a good team, storywise. They were
actually one character! :-).
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:58:07 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
Not to be a knob, but...
Id would dig ditches, Superego would work at a book store and Ego would say,
"You want fries with that?"
Sorry, I couldn't let the whole thread go by without taking at least one dig
at the psych majors.
BRI
] Jason Sullivan writes:
] > If there was a character who could either transform into
] > representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate
] into his Id,
] > Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think
] they/it would have?
]
] The classic example of this is Kirk/Spock/McCoy (id/superego/ego)
] which is why those three made such a good team, storywise. They were
] actually one character! :-).
]
] Steven J. Owens
] puff@netcom.com
]
]
]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:08:44 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
>Id would be a brick. Superego might be a mind-controller. Ego I'm not sure
>about - maybe a skilled martial-artist type?
>
>I'd prefer to go with the Jungian model: Ego, Persona, Shadow, and
>Anima/Animus. Ego as above, perhaps. Persona would be a shapeshifter with
>PRE skills. The obvious power for Shadow is Darkness, but link it with a
>Mind Control to bring out opponents' repressed sides and things could get
>really interesting. Anima/Animus would depend on the sex of the PC; Anima
>might be have creative (Transform?) powers, healing, and/or empathic
>abilities, while Animus would be an aggressive warrior type.
That brings up an interesting hero while you are on the Jungian fantasy
model, the Archetype. You could have a Multiform of different Archetypes
(warrior, healing nurturer, etc).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:19:31 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> At 11:08 AM 5/5/99 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> >Elementals are the fundamental pieces of the world. Early
> >civilizations believed that everything was made up of varying
> >quantities of earth, wind, fire, and water. (Void was also
> >in the mix, but in much the same way as Zero is included in
> >mathematics.)
>
> >How about:
> >- Time (That was somebody else's idea. I liked it.)
> >- DNA (or matter)
> >- Technology (or Knowledge)
> >- Life Force (or energy)
>
> Strong Force
> Weak Force
> Gravity
> Electromagnetism
If you can find it, you can pick up the Elemental Companion for Rolemaster.
Kind of silly, but has proven useful to me. I don't have the book on me, but
it had a heirachy of elements from basic elements to complex elements. Light
+ Heat makes Fire, etc...
- -Mark
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age
happyelf writes:
> > With respect to changes in intelligence due to age; consider it
> >from a pattern recognition perspective:
> >
> > People learn more patterns (of vision, of movement, of behavior,
> >of information, etc) as they mature. Adults have a wealth of internal
> >patterns and (hopefully) the ability to recognize a series of facts as
> >related to or similar to an existing pattern, and react accordingly.
>
> So do children.
You don't consider children people?
> In fact, the majority of such data is recieved in childhood. That's
> when people learn most of what the learn.
You phrase this as if it were a contradiction of my statement,
but in point of fact you're agreeing with my statement. Or was there
something else you were trying to convey?
> >At the same time, that advantageous behavior can cause problems: when
> >the pattern only *seems* to resemble a known pattern; when the adult
> >is fixated on fitting the facts into a known pattern to such an extent
> >that he or she ignores or discounts facts that don't fit the known
> >pattern; when it doesn't resemble a known pattern and the adult balks
> >at learning a new pattern; .
>
> Insight problems? I wasn't aware there was an age-based
> trend there.
Ever tried to teach a 55-year-old housewife how to use a
computer? Not to knock 55-year-old-housewives; pick any demographic
that wouldn't have been exposed to complex technological systems; or
turn it around and discuss trying to teach an engineer how to be
more artistically creative after being hammered into a systematic,
methodical mindset by the five-year-hazing-process that is called
getting an engineering degree.
> > Children are often faster to learn and become proficient in
> >completely new situations (for example videogames and more generally
> >computers in the last generation or so :-). In part this is because
> >they're more open to absorbing new patterns directly, by virtue of
> >having fewer patterns and less of a history of fitting new situatoins
> >to known patterns.
>
> gee, it could be because they're primed to learn at that age, too.
> In fact, i'd say that's the major reason for child learning rates.
> Remember, a preexistant event schema can aid in learning as well.
> Try getting anything out of an advanced physics course when
> you've never even done physics 101.
You're pretty much restating my case, albeit in different jargon
and in a slightly more complex fashion. Sounds like you've done some
interesting reading in this area. Adults have existing patterns of
information, which often aids them but sometimes hinders them.
Children (starting from infancy) have less information, which often
makes them more open to new experiences (having fewer expectations of
fitting the new experience into a, as you put it, "preexistant event
schema").
> In fact, thw genre convention of a mutent seem sunfortunate in this-
> speaking psudoscientifically, if mutants do manifest during
> puberty, then likely they've missed the best time to learn to
> use their powers, unless the critical period for such things was much
> later than is usual, as is suggested by a recent comparison of
> magneto and that clone of his.
I never did really like this genre, but then again, how much fun
would it be to write a comic about a super-powered toddler (unless the
toddler were more the plot device for a comic about a parent or
guardian of a super-powered toddler).
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:41:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age
On Wed, 5 May 1999, Steven J. Owens wrote:
> happyelf writes:
>
> > > With respect to changes in intelligence due to age; consider it
> > >from a pattern recognition perspective:
> > >
> > > People learn more patterns (of vision, of movement, of behavior,
> > >of information, etc) as they mature. Adults have a wealth of internal
> > >patterns and (hopefully) the ability to recognize a series of facts as
> > >related to or similar to an existing pattern, and react accordingly.
> >
> > So do children.
>
> You don't consider children people?
To quote above: "ADULTS have a wealth..." (emphasis mine)
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:57:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
At 09:50 AM 5/5/1999 -0700, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>Jason Sullivan writes:
>> If there was a character who could either transform into
>> representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate into his Id,
>> Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think they/it would have?
>
> The classic example of this is Kirk/Spock/McCoy (id/superego/ego)
>which is why those three made such a good team, storywise. They were
>actually one character! :-).
Oddly, I have a similar observation about Bill and Ted (that's Bill S.
Preston, Esquire, and Ted "Theodore" Logan). Bill seems to have the raw
intellectual stuff (such as it is), while Ted has a more poetic side.
Thus, Bill represents the left side of the brain, while Ted represents the
right side.
This would actually explain quite a bit about those two, if one accepts
the premise that they have only one brain between them.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:22:25 -0700
From: "Harvey, Michael" <michael.harvey@intel.com>
Subject: RE: New age elementals.
happyelf wrote:
> But in any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the
> 'elements', and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern
> life like capitalism and industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc
> cna be converted into reasonably non-goofy supervillains.
>
> The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a guy with a seemingly
> limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who represents the military-
> industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy. I need at least two
> more, and each one has to be able to hold their own in combat,
> preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas?
Hmm. I have a difficult time seeing 'firepower' as an element. It is an
abstract idea, and the universe is not made of ideas: it is real. The Four
Elements were an attempt to describe what is real and physical, so it seems
to me that the modern elements should follow that pattern too.
At first glance I like Mike's suggestion (renamed):
1. Time
2. Matter
3. Knowledge
4. Energy
However Knowledge is not an element, it is an abstract concept. But matter,
energy and time are all physical concepts. Even better, they are
interrelated, like the original four elements. If you replaced Knowledge
with something physical it would work, but offhand I can't think of anything
that Time/Matter/Energy does not cover.
Bill suggested
1. Strong Force
2. Weak Force
3. Gravity
4. Electromagnetism
This is very elegant, but is has two problems: strong force and weak force.
These are really only useful at a subatomic level, which is probably outside
the scope of the game (unless it is a really wierd game). So I think I'd go
back to:
1. Time
2. Matter
3. Energy
4. Dimension (suggested by Jason, with interesting powers)
Your original suggestion *was* an abstract idea though. The original four
elements were based more on properties of matter, and overlapped quite a
bit. Going with this approach I'd suggest [borrowing from various other
people]:
1. Blight (pollution, ecology, sprawl, toxic, depression, disease)
2. Media (EGO-based powers, information, illusion, PRE)
3. Technology (physics, genetics, weapons [firepower], etc)
4. Change (time/speed, transform, change environment, mutation, etc)
It would be interesting if the conflict was fought in a virtual environment;
the modern team attempting to transform it into a cyberpunkish place, and
the classical team trying to create a natural utopia. It could be
frustrating as Blight creates urban sprawl and then Change accelerates time
for 100 years to create a metropolis!
Just my 2c
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:26:33 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
At 11:57 AM 5/5/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:50 AM 5/5/1999 -0700, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>>Jason Sullivan writes:
>>> If there was a character who could either transform into
>>> representive forms of his Id, Ego, & Superego or Duplicate into his Id,
>>> Ego, & Superego all at once, what powers do you think they/it would have?
>>
>> The classic example of this is Kirk/Spock/McCoy (id/superego/ego)
>>which is why those three made such a good team, storywise. They were
>>actually one character! :-).
>
> Oddly, I have a similar observation about Bill and Ted (that's Bill S.
>Preston, Esquire, and Ted "Theodore" Logan). Bill seems to have the raw
>intellectual stuff (such as it is), while Ted has a more poetic side.
>Thus, Bill represents the left side of the brain, while Ted represents the
>right side.
> This would actually explain quite a bit about those two, if one accepts
>the premise that they have only one brain between them.
Excellent! My friend Ted and I got pretty tired of hearing about those
movies every time we did something together, though. Now, can you explain
why Keanu Reeves has had a career beyond Ted 'Theodore' Logan?
Another good example of this sort of character group is Frodo (Ego), Sam
(folk-wisdom Superego), and Gollum (Id).
And more from the Jungians: Scarecrow = Thinking, Tin Man = Feeling,
Cowardly Lion = Sensing, Toto = Intuition.
- - Bill Svitavsky
ObChampions: This sort of thing is really very effective in creating
character groups.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:28:47 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
In a message dated 5/5/99 3:22:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
michael.harvey@intel.com writes:
<< > But in any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the
> 'elements', and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern
> life like capitalism and industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc
> cna be converted into reasonably non-goofy supervillains.
>
> The obvious one is 'firepower', which is a guy with a seemingly
> limitless supply of weapons and ammo, who represents the military-
> industrial complex, and maybe an internet guy. I need at least two
> more, and each one has to be able to hold their own in combat,
> preferably in a non-corny way. Any ideas? >>
May i suggest picking up a copy of shadowrun. They have a system like your
looking for detailed in depth. Even if you dont wanna play it, look for
someone who has a copy, and use it for ideas. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:32:26 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: RE: New age elementals.
At 12:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, Harvey, Michael wrote:
>However Knowledge is not an element, it is an abstract concept. But matter,
>energy and time are all physical concepts. Even better, they are
>interrelated, like the original four elements. If you replaced Knowledge
>with something physical it would work, but offhand I can't think of anything
>that Time/Matter/Energy does not cover.
>
Nothing says that there have to be four elements. That's just
a holdover from the original 4 elements.
How about:
- - Time
- - Matter
- - Energy
- - The Wonder Twins
:)
Sidenote: That sickenly PC Ted Turner creation, Captain Planet
used a modern version of the 4 elements. And then it added a
fifth -- Heart. Take it for what it's worth.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:42:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:46:04 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
At 03:26 PM 5/5/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>> This would actually explain quite a bit about those two, if one accepts
>>the premise that they have only one brain between them.
>
>Excellent! My friend Ted and I got pretty tired of hearing about those
>movies every time we did something together, though. Now, can you explain
>why Keanu Reeves has had a career beyond Ted 'Theodore' Logan?
Some things man was not meant to know.
However, there may be some tie-in with Uma Thurman and Oprah Winfrey. ;-]
>ObChampions: This sort of thing is really very effective in creating
>character groups.
It really is. For that matter, I've sometimes thought about making out
a form with all the various types of personality divisions, and using it to
define the personality of each character I make. It'd certainly make for
well-rounded characters, IMHO!
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date:
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Id, Ego, Superego Multiform/Duplication HERO
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> on Wed, 05 May 1999
| Excellent! My friend Ted and I got pretty tired of hearing about those
| movies every time we did something together, though. Now, can you explain
| why Keanu Reeves has had a career beyond Ted 'Theodore' Logan?
Keanu Reeves has a career?
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:36:24 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
At 03:42 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
>
> What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
>
> ...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?
>
"limited DEX"? In what way is it limited?
I always assumed that DEX *was* your reflexes.
What am I missing?
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:21:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
>Elementals are the fundamental pieces of the world. Early
>civilizations believed that everything was made up of varying
>quantities of earth, wind, fire, and water. (Void was also
>in the mix, but in much the same way as Zero is included in
>mathematics.)
>
>With that in mind, what you're looking for is four items (though
>it doesn't necessarily have to be 4) with which you can build
>anything.
>
>How about:
>- Time (That was somebody else's idea. I liked it.)
>- DNA (or matter)
>- Technology (or Knowledge)
>- Life Force (or energy)
What I thought of was Gravity, Electromagnetism, the Weak Nuclear Force and
the Strong Nuclear Force...but it might well be hard to distinguish between
the latter two in character design.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 13:46:26 PDT
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
>In a message dated 5/5/99 3:22:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>michael.harvey@intel.com writes:
>
><< > But in any event, i need some ideas for contemporary versions of the
> > 'elements', and no i don't mean the periodic table. Concepts of modern
> > life like capitalism and industrialism, except not as weenie, whihc
> > cna be converted into reasonably non-goofy supervillains.
Why not borrow from Asian traditions. Chinese alchemical theories include
the element "Metal", which seems appropriate here, as does the Japanese
"Void".
In fact, it might be cool to make the Void be your nefarious evil mastermind
behind all of these modern "elementals", even if you don't use it as one of
the four counterpart villains.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:47:32 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
At 04:36 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 03:42 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>>Lightning Reflexes is simply limited DEX...
>>
>> What's the Limitation? How much is the Limitation worth?
>>
>> ...and how much is Lightning Reflexes?
>>
>
>"limited DEX"? In what way is it limited?
>I always assumed that DEX *was* your reflexes.
>What am I missing?
>
Agility, hand-eye coordination, and probably a few other things. A
character with Lightning Reflexes will react quickly, but won't be a
natural acrobat (no bonus to DEX rolls for maintaining balance, etc.) and
isn't necessarily more accurate in hitting or shooting. At least, that's
what I recall of the limitation.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date:
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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* "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com> on Wed, 05 May 1999
| Why not borrow from Asian traditions. Chinese alchemical theories include
| the element "Metal", which seems appropriate here, as does the Japanese
| "Void".
Japanese folklore and mythology use the Chinese alchemy. Japanese call it
"metal" while Chinese often call it "gold", but they mean the same thing.
Void is not an element, and its usage is philosophical rather than material.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 13:54:32 PDT
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How much is Lightning Reflexes?
On Wed, 05 May 1999 Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net> wrote:
>>"limited DEX"? In what way is it limited?
>I always assumed that DEX *was* your reflexes.
>What am I missing?
Lightning Reflexes is a talent, which I believe was introduced in one of the
Dark Champions supplements (Eye for an Eye?), and later reproduced in the
Ultimate Mentalist. It was basically extra DEX, "Only for going first in a
phase". It didn't give you bonuses to DEX skills or SPD. I don't have my
copy of TUM on me, so I'm not sure what the cost was for the talent. I
think it translated into a -1 limitation, expressed as a cost per level,
like other skills and talents. So, the first level was 3 points for +2 DEX
for purposes of going first, additional levels were either 1 or 2 points
each. But don't take my word for it.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date:
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New age elementals.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Wed, 05 May 1999
| What I thought of was Gravity, Electromagnetism, the Weak Nuclear Force
| and the Strong Nuclear Force...but it might well be hard to distinguish
| between the latter two in character design.
Hypothetically it is impossible to distingush them from each other, but
that has yet to be proven for all four fundamental forces :).
But my take is that 'weak' is represented with an internal direction,
powers that affect the character himself, while 'strong' is represented by
an external direction, powers that affect others.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
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