Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 321

Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 321
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 5:50 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #321

champ-l-digest Friday, May 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 321

In this issue:

Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: The Seven Deadly Sins (was New age elementals.)
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Alien Limitations (was Archetype Clone Force, Attack!) (fwd)
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: CHAR: Succubus
Re: CHAR: Succubus
HERO simulated Level Drain (was CHAR: Succubus)
Re: Int vs. Age
Re: HERO simulated Level Drain (was CHAR: Succubus)
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
OT: The story of new Coke
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
RE: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:16:30 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

In a message dated 5/6/99 2:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:

> Now, Inquest Gamer does report that a 5th Edition of Champions is around
> the corner. My impression was that the reason behind a 5th Edition was to
> clear up some of the complexity, but it looks like another purpose it will
> have to serve will be simply to let the world know that Hero System
> Champions is still alive.

The way that I look at it is like this. When HERO joined up with RTG and came
out with Fuzion, we (the HERO players) were left out in the cold. No matter
what HERO says; the dumped the game system to other vendors (including Gold
Rush who produced a most excellent book (SA)). No paper books = a game with
company support. Those of us who love it (or at least like it) and play it...
kept it alive - with little or no help from HERO.

Now, they're coming out with a 5th ED. and i say... "great! thanks! and
welcome back."

or maybe I have this all wrong.

andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ben Brown <benbrown@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: The Seven Deadly Sins (was New age elementals.)

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> I think The Seven are suitable for Fantasy, Horror,
> Magic/Supenatural, Superheroic, and possibly other genres and cross
> genres... (Anime Seven... Wild West Seven... Cthulu Seven...)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So which one's Yul Brynner?

> I'd like to see variations on these themes...
>
> If anyone wants to start an off list thread for actually
> constructing the Seven, contact me.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:52:28 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

In a message dated 5/6/99 5:33:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AndMat3@aol.com
writes:

<< The way that I look at it is like this. When HERO joined up with RTG and
came
out with Fuzion, we (the HERO players) were left out in the cold. No matter
what HERO says; the dumped the game system to other vendors (including Gold
Rush who produced a most excellent book (SA)). No paper books = a game with
company support. Those of us who love it (or at least like it) and play
it...
kept it alive - with little or no help from HERO.

Now, they're coming out with a 5th ED. and i say... "great! thanks! and
welcome back."

or maybe I have this all wrong. >>

I expect that the HERO people thought that the Fuzion system would be
recieved better by die hard players, and saw it as a way to make the rules
more workable and accessable to a wider buyer market.

Unfortunatly, most of you (meaning die hard HERO fans; i am not one) saw the
fuzion systems faults as being to overpowering, and felt abandoned instead of
blessed. Die hard fans somehow picked the HERO system, with all its
complexity and core mechanics errors, over the Fuzion system.

After some time, the HERO people realized that theyre most dedicated fans
wernt buying it. So they said " well, more of the same", and came up with the
5th edition in hopes to win fans back.

If the hero system was revieved better, than i think that we would be waiting
for a much more streamline, smooth running, and overall workable rulebook
that converted what will now be 5th edition ( by default) into a wonderfully
versatile Fuzion-esque game.

As a side note, ive decided to rule the 2009 game with powers constructed in
4th ed. BBB and than converted to Fuzion. I think that the "KILLS" of damage
mechanic is much more tolerable than the major Stat mechanic errors in the
BBB. Hopefully 5th ed will have a section in the back with a better way to
convert to fuzion.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:20:50 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

> I expect that the HERO people thought that the Fuzion system would be
> recieved better by die hard players, and saw it as a way to make the rules
> more workable and accessable to a wider buyer market.

Actually, they continue to say that the two are and always were meant to be
seperate, though similar in some ways and easily converted, systems. Did I
miss where they say otherwise, or were this post and the post previous to it
based on the assumption that they were lying to us?

JAJ, GP

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:39:48 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

In a message dated 5/6/99 2:33:27 PM, AndMat3@aol.com writes:

>The way that I look at it is like this. When HERO joined up with RTG and
>came=20
>out with Fuzion, we (the HERO players) were left out in the cold. No matter
>
>what HERO says; the dumped the game system to other vendors (including
>Gold=20
>Rush who produced a most excellent book (SA)). No paper books =3D a game
>with=20
>company support. Those of us who love it (or at least like it) and play
>it...=20
>kept it alive - with little or no help from HERO.
>
>Now, they're coming out with a 5th ED. and i say... "great! thanks! and
>
>welcome back."
>
>or maybe I have this all wrong.

Indeed, you have this all wrong. :)

We have continued to produce Hero System supplements and will continue to do=20
so. All of our products will have both Hero System and Fuzion stats in them.=20
Gold Rush Games is producing both Hero System and Fuzion products as well.

InQuest is a little confused. Champions 4th Edition has not been out of prin=
t=20
at all; actually, it just went out of print last week. Copies have been=20
available for distributors and retailers continuously since 1989. The failur=
e=20
of a retailer to buy copies is not because copies were not available. We've=20
let the game fall out of print now in order to try and eliminate copies in=20
stores between now and when the 5th Edition Hero System book comes out.

There will be no more huge, three-books-in-one volume edition of Champions.=20
It's too big and too expensive. Instead, we're producing those books=20
separately. The Hero System will now only appear in its own book (5th=20
Edition). We have two Champions campaign settings (New Millennium and San=20
Angelo: City of Heroes), with several more on the way. And we're working on =
a=20
Champions genre book (all about creating and running superhero campaign=20
settings). This way fans can get what they want without paying extra for wha=
t=20
they don't want or need, and each book can deal more thoroughly with its=20
subject matter.

=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:51:16 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

>After some time, the HERO people realized that theyre most dedicated fans
>wernt buying it. So they said " well, more of the same", and came up with
the
>5th edition in hopes to win fans back.

Seems to me I remember a cola company trying that in the 80s with much the
same success hmmmm what is the lesson here.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:44:58 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

In a message dated 5/6/99 2:58:47 PM, Akirazeta@aol.com writes:

>I expect that the HERO people thought that the Fuzion system would be=20
>recieved better by die hard players, and saw it as a way to make the rules
>
>more workable and accessable to a wider buyer market.

No, we never expected Hero System players to adopt Fuzion. We did expect=20
Fuzion to bring in new players, which it has done very successfully indeed.

>Unfortunatly, most of you (meaning die hard HERO fans; i am not one) saw
>the=20
>fuzion systems faults as being to overpowering, and felt abandoned instead
>of=20
>blessed. Die hard fans somehow picked the HERO system, with all its=20
>complexity and core mechanics errors, over the Fuzion system.
>
>After some time, the HERO people realized that theyre most dedicated fans
>
>wernt buying it. So they said " well, more of the same", and came up with
>the=20
>5th edition in hopes to win fans back.
>

We've been planning a 5th Edition for several years, but we wanted to wait=20
until we'd sold all the copies of the 4th Edition that we had, rather than=20
throwing them away. The 5th Edition had nothing to do with Fuzion; if=20
anything, the success of Fuzion would argue that we shouldn't do a 5th=20
Edition of the Hero System. But that's not the way we've ever thought about=20
it.

=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:22:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

> In a message dated 5/6/99 2:58:47 PM, Akirazeta@aol.com writes:
> >I expect that the HERO people thought that the Fuzion system would be=20
> >received better by die hard players, and saw it as a way to make the rul=
es
> >more workable and accessible to a wider buyer market.
On Thu, 6 May 1999 HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
> No, we never expected Hero System players to adopt Fuzion. We did expect=
=20
> Fuzion to bring in new players, which it has done very successfully indee=
d.
> <SNIP>
> =97 Steve Peterson, Hero Game

In a time not so long ago...
=09I'll admit, at first, I was intrigued by the FUZION system. I was
a big fan of RTG games, and I thought it would be neat to try something
new. I picked up the system quickly, and compared it to HERO... hm.
Wasn't "everything I liked in HERO" in a quick and easy format.
Organization, side notes, customization- Fuzion's strong points, in my
opinion, were a welcome addition, and a great help in structuring House
Rules for my own personal HERO game...

The story continues...
=09After downloading and reading allot of the rules for FUZION, I saw
it was an extremely flexible system. Some of the free on line supplements
were really great. I was a bit excited because it would be easier for me
to "wing it", plus, the stuff was free.
=09I still wasn't pleased when I actually ran the game. It was in a
hyper kinetic futuristic aliens and super spy and psionic and cybernetic
setting, with plenty of martial arts and supernatural thrown in... I
wrote up all the house rules, clipping from here and there, correcting
errors, customizing, converting from the BBB. We decided to go with a
very simple set of stats, with the Combat divsions (Dexterity, Reflexes,
Coordination, Agility, and Tech) being the only "broken down" stat. Each
character created got a "special" stat for purchasing their individual
power sets. Mario decided to play a young punk TK with a motorcycle and a
bad attitude. (Mario worships _Akira_).

So it came to pass...
=09I sat down with Mario, for our first test game. Mario didn't like
HERO. Admittedly, he didn't ever read any of the books, but he knew there
was math and "complex character creation involved." Being of the AD&D and
White Wolf stock, his logic dictated a simpler Fuzion character would be
better suited for play...=20

=09"Eh." I said.
=09"What?" Mario asked.

=09I went on to explain that this system wasn't balanced like HERO,
and I wasn't as comfortable with it. It was harder to break things down,
and build things up. Instead of having lumber to build houses with, I
felt like we were given trees... and I was in merry Fuzion forrest
without an axe.

=09We played. We stumbled. The sun set.

=09I wanted my wubbie.

=09I crawled for hours... and at last, an oasis.

=09HERO.

The melodrama ends ...or does it?
=09So here I am, back on the mailing list with my antiquated notes,
freakish concepts, and very odd power constructs.
=09I'm introducing Mario to HERO bit by bit. I have a better grasp
of the rules than I ever had in the past, thanks to most of you, and a
better appreciation of the system, thanks to Fuzion.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:34:25 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

At 06:39 PM 5/6/1999 EDT, HeroGames@aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 5/6/99 2:33:27 PM, AndMat3@aol.com writes:
>
>>The way that I look at it is like this. When HERO joined up with RTG and
>>came
>>out with Fuzion, we (the HERO players) were left out in the cold. No matter
>>
>>what HERO says; the dumped the game system to other vendors (including
>>Gold
>>Rush who produced a most excellent book (SA)). No paper books = a game
>>with
>>company support. Those of us who love it (or at least like it) and play
>>it...
>>kept it alive - with little or no help from HERO.
>>
>>Now, they're coming out with a 5th ED. and i say... "great! thanks! and
>>
>>welcome back."
>>
>>or maybe I have this all wrong.
>
>Indeed, you have this all wrong. :)
>
>We have continued to produce Hero System supplements and will continue to do
>so. All of our products will have both Hero System and Fuzion stats in them.
>Gold Rush Games is producing both Hero System and Fuzion products as well.

Actually, the problem here was that what few Hero System supplements
there have been (between Watchers of the Dragon in 1995 and The Ultimate
Martial Artist, 2nd Edition, announced as due out within the next couple of
weeks) were all in Hero Plus format. I happen to like Hero Plus (otherwise
I never would have bought TUSM or Unknown Eagles, and I'm only waiting for
the online store to return so I can buy the new PRIMUS), but there's been
some market resistance to it; only a few stores will handle Hero Plus
(including none in Oregon that I know of), and even those who do carry it
and are highly supportive of it have trouble making it really visible (as
someone else's anecdote illustrated).
Even counting Hero Plus, in the four years since WotD there have been
only, what, less than ten books? After a schedule of one a month, that
doesn't look good.
Mind you, I'm not criticizing what's been going on. Hero Plus crams a
lot of information into an inexpensive package, and enables you to put out
books that would otherwise never see the light of day. I don't just
understand the move you made toward electronic publishing; I endorse it.
It's the lack of a visible presence in the stores that has made
Champions and the Hero System *appear* dead to those not better informed.
All that the average store owner or player has been able to see until now
is that the old Champions supplements are fading away, and what new ones
are coming out are for this new Fuzion system.
Of course, it was the split from ICE (which someone sardonically
suggested stands for Incessant Cashflow Embarrassment, because of the
financial troubles that, in large part led to the split -- or so I
understand) that led to the stop in paper supplements, and it took until
the partnership with RTG before anything new could be done. Many of us
wish, though, that new paper supplements for Hero had been put out before
now (me among them).
When TUMA2 and HSR5 are released, we can expect this perception to
change -- and even more so when Fifth Edition Champions hits the shelves.
There will be no question that the Hero System is here to stay.
Of course, those of us on this list already know that. We're just
waiting for the rest of the gaming world to catch on.
The short of it is, there has been a problem in the past, but it's
already in the process of being fixed, so don't worry about it.
Hey, anybody up for a game of Space Wizards? ;-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:40:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Alien Limitations (was Archetype Clone Force, Attack!) (fwd)

I'm working on an "alien mystic/messiah" archetype.
Aliens like Martian Manhunter, and to a lesser extent, Superman,
fit this bill. Movies like Starman, Powder, The Man Who Fell to Earth and
The 5th Element, or television series like the Phoenix, also fit the
criteria for this type of hero. This is a very popular archetype in
fiction, used over and over again in many different mediums.
Strange visitor fallen from the skies and stranded on a world not
his own. He posses awesome and frightening powers, and is generally
misunderstands, and is misunderstood. He is stalked by both alien races
he is escaping from and the government (it's a witchhunt type scenerio).
Only a small group of scientists who wish to help him are his friends.

While he apears human because he adapted to this world, he is
anything but... he still has a frighteningly complex internal system. He
is unfamaliar with Earth things and does not understand Earth culture. He
belives killing is wrong.

These roughly translate into Physical Limitation: Internal Alien
biology, Psychological Limitation: Unfamaliar with earth culture and
society, DF: Cultural fish out of water, Psychological Limitation:
CAK, DNPC, and various Hunteds.

Unfortunately, his Statistics and Skills (Xenopology and
Xenobiology) cost about 100, and his Cosmic VPP (his only power) costs
150. Even with the lims I have now, he falls below the mark.

If you're famaliar with the genre, I would appreciate help with
this character's drawbacks. Hope to hear from you soon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:15:07 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

happyelf wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
> To: happyelf <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
> Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Int vs. Age
>
> >
> >
> >> Second, oldrer people learn new things less because they aren't
> >> in the phase where their norms are set down,
> >
> >this means the same to me as being "Set in Ones Ways"
>
> wrong. Unless you've shifted deffinitions again, you were talking about
> learning.

You said learning, read your own sentence.... are you saying you mean teaching?

> it's more accurate, and clearly distinct to say, that i'm speaking
> of comunication before learning. It's a vital difference. The problem is a
> problem that is present whenever any two groups try to interact.
>

yes sounds like you mean teaching

>
> >It is usually
> >manifest in the older crowd, whether its a stage of development like
> >you seem to be differentiating or a process whereby ones thinking becomes
> >"crystalline" alah Piaget
> >
>
> noooo, neither. it's a different subculture.

Not sure where culture comes into this, Yes computers were not a part of my
parents generatons "cultural norms" any more than " they are intrinsically a
part
of a newborn childs cultural norm"

I expect the child in 10 years to be using his computer better and for more
things
than that 60 year old mother does hers...

>
>
> >Whether norms become NORMS due to the influence of experience
> >"alah the progression of time modified by details of that experience"
> >or due to a progression of developmental stages.
> >
>
> no. . .norms develop in all cultres, and aren't simply a matter of
> information processing.

I was referring to personal norms not cultural ones... making personal
styles and identity into cultural is rape

>
> >It seems to me this can still be simulated in the game in much the same
> >manner.... and maybe that is the whole crux.
> >
>
> nope. one's abotu cultural identity, one's about learning. Both
> have distinct concepts and are best seperated, as makes sense in
> rp terms as well.

I was rather distinct in saying I was talking about learning all along
and how older folk don't seem to learn new things as fast...

> >> like kiddies are.
> >> It takes longer, especially if new concepts are placed in a context and
> >> jargon unfamiliar to them.
> >
> >Jargon is just another form of a "preexistant event schema"
> >
> >You know its pretty obvious such things can both aid or hinder
> >
>
> yeah? so why didn't you mkae that clear, instead of squewing everything to
> one
> side?

Ummm more than just you an me in the conversation bud

>
>
> >The peiceing through larger amounts of experience which may aid or hinder
> "takes
> >longer
> >even when it means in a particular case you may get more out of the new inp
> ut
> >over a larger
> >amount of time WOW kids think faster...not more accurately... Voila' HERO
> has it
> >backwards
> >
> >Mental Quickness ... as in HEROS definition of INT is after all where this
> >argument came from
> >
>
> accuracy? yeesh, this is getting nowhere. don[t you think when a
> child observes something more completly,

Sheesh we arent getting anywhere... where did i ever say anything
approaching the child observes more completely????
You equate mental quickness with perception??? The game system
links the two that doesnt make them equate.

> they're seeing things accuratly,
> since they omit less?

I said adults have more to analyse from other experiences before coming
to conclusions... who said anything about how much gets omitted

> Whatever.

sometimes you seem to make up stuff

>
>
> >> Often the idea of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' has less to do
> >> with
> >> learning and cognitive processing, and more to do with the way different
> >> professions comunicate. Have you tried to teach a housewife computer
> usage
> >> in a housewife's terms? Usually another member of the same social
> subgroup
> >> has way more luck.
> >
> >My wife seams like she would be far better at teaching other housewifes
> about
> >computer
> >tech.
> >
>
> social. dig?

I don't disagree with everything you point out

>
>
> >When Older people seem to have difficulty with learning new things it seems
> one
> >reason is because they
> >are no longer willing to be very bad at doing things... embarassed more by
> >falling down and falling
> >down and falling down when learning to skate backwards for instance.
>
> try teaching somebody 20 years your junior who's above the age of 14
> something. then
> you'll see 'set in their ways'. it's cultural as well. in fact, it's more
> reasonably cultural.
>
> >I'm 35
> >and have let ego
> >interfere in this fashion. I can skate forwards and perform lots of fun
> Dance
> >like steps, and ocassionally try to get backwards skating figured out.
> >
>
> try teaching that to a 15 year old. they prolly won't be very interested.
> it's about motivation more than anything. Are these older people
> motivated to change their ways? no. the same can be said for
> teen students in school.

A large part of my argument is that lack of motivation to change is more
dominant
in people who have a lot of skills and knowledge and self definition, developed
already
and that the older you get the more likely this kind of lack of motivation will
be yours

I'm restating this I know
Mentality:
Why do I need to use the damn computer.. "The typewriter is better it never
loses my
story". Its what I'm used to for gods sake. Sure Its easier to edit the stories
on a computer
but I'd have to spend so much time learning to use it, and in that time I could
type up several stories... and besides i'd have to change some part of the way i
think and alter my percieved self identity, like
"Real writers use such-and-such typewriters and so do I"
I can accomplish everything I really need another way why do I want to start
over as a beginner again?
besides, I would have to learn from that young kid, what does he know anyway.

That last line is for you... since you are attributing lack of motivation to
lack of communication.

> >> >> In fact, thw genre convention of a mutent seem sunfortunate in this-
> >> >> speaking psudoscientifically, if mutants do manifest during
> >> >> puberty, then likely they've missed the best time to learn to
> >> >> use their powers, unless the critical period for such things was much
> >> >> later than is usual, as is suggested by a recent comparison of
> >> >> magneto and that clone of his.
> >> >
> >> > I never did really like this genre, but then again, how much fun
> >> >would it be to write a comic about a super-powered toddler (unless the
> >> >toddler were more the plot device for a comic about a parent or
> >> >guardian of a super-powered toddler).
> >> >
> >> there was a flash anual that touched on this. an alternate future
> >> wally west who's son could move quickly, but didn't have the
> >> heat-resistant aura. It was basically like a handicap to him.
> >>
> >> >Steven J. Owens
> >> >puff@netcom.com
> >> >
> >
> >Using the optimal learning period model on mutants handles this quite
> >easily "Mutant" optimal learning period can be much later and much more
> >extended than human, even though they otherwise think like humans
> >.... this would make more of them very powerful intellectually.
> >
> >Lance
> >
> >
> if they think like humans, why owuld it make them intelectually powerful?

having a longer optimal learning period... if they don't otherwise think like
human they might having a longer optimal learning period might only make
up for deficiencies, and we can't predict much.

>
> the perid woudl relate to powers, not other concepts.

True unless they had the option to not work on the "powers"

> I mentioned critical
> period above, but neither one speaks generally about periods of learning,
> nesecarily. in fact a later optimal period would be a hinderance,

oops didnt mean start later just last till later... but it wasnt what I said.

> though a
> longer optimal period would be very interesting, yes.

Yep thas what i wasa thinkin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:21:04 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Succubus

Michael Surbrook wrote:

> On Thu, 6 May 1999, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> > >Succubus Powers:
> > >40 Kiss: Drain: 2d6 vs BODY, Continous (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Must
> > > follow grab (-1/4)
>
> > If I remember correctly, the AD&D ability this power corresponds to is a
> > level drain. Without D&D's level-dependent system, that's a bit tough to
> > simulate. In most cases I'd say not simulating D&D's level-dependency was a
> > *good* thing, but in this case a straightforward attack on BODY is farther
> > than D&D in simulating the Succubus's traditional effect of reducing
> > vitality.
>
> Well, simulating a level drain is more like a drain vs *all*
> characteristics, especially, DEX and SPD. Here, all I tried to do was
> simplify the intent ofthe AD*D power, which was to kill its target.

How about Drain versus General Skill Levels(10 pt skill levels) and allow
negatives.
solves it rather similarly. Yes I'm making loose with the law but hey... it is
very similar
in effect to the dreaded original level concept. You might have to put in some
minor
body drain as well ... but not if people are getting their improved defensive
ability
via skill.

Lance Dyas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:25:47 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Succubus

Michael Surbrook wrote:

> On Thu, 6 May 1999, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> > >>Succubus Powers:
> > >>40 Kiss: Drain: 2d6 vs BODY, Continous (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Must
> > >> follow grab (-1/4)
> > >
> > >If I remember correctly, the AD&D ability this power corresponds to is a
> > >level drain. Without D&D's level-dependent system, that's a bit tough to
> > >simulate. In most cases I'd say not simulating D&D's level-dependency was a
> > >*good* thing, but in this case a straightforward attack on BODY is farther
> > >than D&D in simulating the Succubus's traditional effect of reducing
> > >vitality.
> >
> > The traditional succubus (she caused wet dreams, dont ya know) drained your
> > life force slowly and sapped the holiness in you (slowly draining you until
> > you lost your salvation). Has a lot to do with Roman Catholic theology,
> > but a BOD drain works. Honestly I would build them a little less combative
> > and more sneaky, something that shows up at night, gives you a wild ride
> > and leaves you weaker each night until you just die.
>
> That's pretty mcuh a traditional succubus all right. However, as this is
> an AD&D sucubbus, it is going to be more 'combative'.

I have a warped fondness for the RuneQuest Succubi/Incubi
It appeared as the appropriate gender first seducing and eventually killing a
male.
using the power gained to distorting the seed and then raping a female.
Who then gave birth to a changeling/demonic which killed her upon being born.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: HERO simulated Level Drain (was CHAR: Succubus)

Could you key a Drain to Drain ALL CP, in order of their Active
Points, Only down to Starting Values/Base points?

Thus, you can "reverse" any gained abilites that might have been
acquired through adventuring. You can set the reversal time to be a
lengthy session, so things are eventually "relearned." Also, certain
spells can "heal" some of the damage.

Anything more, and you're taking about going into "negative"
levels, which don't exist in AD&D. (Well, kinda... 00 Level and 0 Level).
I'm not to famaliar with the Level Drain rules, mind you... (and I think
the BODY drain makes a hell of a lot more sense).

>>>>>
A Side Note: Michael, have you considered converting any of the
Ravenloft monsters, or monsters from Van Richten's Guide? I'd be willing
to mail you the books on loan, or get the info to you, so you could do
some conversions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:03:17 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Int vs. Age

happyelf

I think I need to apologize to you and the list for being too vehement in my
last response to this particular thread.

Lance

"He who over-reacts in silly ways strangely interpreting... statements meant to
indicate culture differances result in communication and hence learning
differences as somehow demeaning to the individual by laying "blame" on their
culture"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:15:50 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: HERO simulated Level Drain (was CHAR: Succubus)

I kind of hate the specifics of level drain but lets call it soul drain and
sap the persons EGO, and END/MANA pool, this leads to a much more
interesting results... and can simulating ADnD

Always did like succubi... im a sucker for a pretty face ;)

Jason Sullivan wrote:

> Could you key a Drain to Drain ALL CP, in order of their Active
> Points, Only down to Starting Values/Base points?
>
> Thus, you can "reverse" any gained abilites that might have been
> acquired through adventuring. You can set the reversal time to be a
> lengthy session, so things are eventually "relearned." Also, certain
> spells can "heal" some of the damage.
>
> Anything more, and you're taking about going into "negative"
> levels, which don't exist in AD&D. (Well, kinda... 00 Level and 0 Level).
> I'm not to famaliar with the Level Drain rules, mind you... (and I think
> the BODY drain makes a hell of a lot more sense).
>
> >>>>>
> A Side Note: Michael, have you considered converting any of the
> Ravenloft monsters, or monsters from Van Richten's Guide? I'd be willing
> to mail you the books on loan, or get the info to you, so you could do
> some conversions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:50:26 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

At 03:20 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> I expect that the HERO people thought that the Fuzion system would be
>> recieved better by die hard players, and saw it as a way to make the rules
>> more workable and accessable to a wider buyer market.
>
>Actually, they continue to say that the two are and always were meant to be
>seperate, though similar in some ways and easily converted, systems. Did I
>miss where they say otherwise, or were this post and the post previous to it
>based on the assumption that they were lying to us?
>
>JAJ, GP
>
With all due respect to the Hero guys (and everyone else in the gaming
industry), you don't really believe that they only tell us what they truly
believe, do you?
I expect that Hero has lied to us at least once because they needed to
create a particular media image and I don't really mind that. I assumed
that that is what was meant by the above: that Hero had expected the Hero4
players to like Fuzion more than they did and maintains that they never
intended to switch over and orphan Hero4 because they have realised their
mistake and don't want to alienate them further. I'm not saying that that
is what happened, just that that's what I thought he was saying.

============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:13:38 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: OT: The story of new Coke

At 03:51 PM 5/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>After some time, the HERO people realized that theyre most dedicated fans
>>wernt buying it. So they said " well, more of the same", and came up with
>the
>>5th edition in hopes to win fans back.
>
>Seems to me I remember a cola company trying that in the 80s with much the
>same success hmmmm what is the lesson here.
>
Gee, an excellent example.
This is exactly what Coca-Cola wanted you to think. Here's the real story:

Coca-Cola is really two companies: Coca-Cola and Coca-Cola Bottling. Back
near the turn of the century, two guys who knew the man who invented Coke
thought that selling it in bottles was a great idea. (They had had some
bottled beer in Mexico.) The man who owned Coke thought it was a silly
idea, as Coke was sold at Soda Fountains like ice cream, as a treat, and
was not the kind of thing folks would take home. So he sold them the
rights to sell Coke in bottles for $2. Further, he signed a contract to
sell the syrup at a fixed price.

In the 1960's, the Soda Fountains died and the sales of bottled (and
canned) Coke grew proportionately. And the price of sugar skyrocketed. It
went so high that Coca-Cola was selling syrup to Coca-Cola Bottling for
less than it cost to make. Because Coca-Cola was in danger of closing, the
Bottling company agreed to a new contract that fixed the price to the price
of sugar.

During the 1970's, inflation became a major problem in the United States,
and the price of everything in coca-cola went up by a factor of 10.
Everything except the sugar, that is. Coca-Cola was over a barrel as it
was bound by contract to keep selling the syrup to Coca-Cola Bottling at
the same price.

However, nothing in that contract prevented the changing of the formula.
So they changed the formula to one which they knew would be less popular,
claiming that they did it to be more like Pepsi. Eventually, public outcry
became so great that they announced they were bringing back the old
formula. But they didn't change the formula back. Instead, they kept the
new Coke and introduced a NEW product called "Coca-Cola Classic". As a
"new" product, they could set their own price for it.

So Coca-Cola lied to us, and used us as a pressure group to get a new
contract.
And I for one don't really mind.

============================
Geoff Heald
============================
"do you hear someone laughing megalomaniacally?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:57:07 -0700
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

> With all due respect to the Hero guys (and everyone else in the gaming
> industry), you don't really believe that they only tell us what they truly
> believe, do you?

Absolutely, based on two premises: innocent until proven guilty, and the fact
that I'm not on the inside, able to know what forces have shaped recent events.
What I do know is that they have maintained throughout that they were not
abandoning Hero, and they have continued publishing as best they could with Hero
Plus support for that system. They say Fuzion and Hero products are going to both
continue to be released, continuing to support both systems, now that they can
actually afford to, in paper form. They say the Fuzion project has done very
well, and that it wasn't intended or expected to be well received by the Hero
audience, though some have received it well. Where did they fabricate
information, provably?

Mind you, I am as certain as possible that they don't tell us everything, but
that's far from the same thing: there are a variety of reasons to withhold
information in any business.

> I expect that Hero has lied to us at least once because they needed to
> create a particular media image and I don't really mind that.

Well, that's not lying, that's marketing (-;

No, really, it's not lying: they marketed the Fuzion products to a (generally
different from Hero) specific target audience. They never said it was going to
replace Hero to my knowledge, so there was no statement to go back on.

As for the rest: they maintained that they weren't going to orphan Hero from the
very beginning. They also maintained that they couldn't afford to continue to
publish regular books, and worked to get Hero Plus off the ground. Which is
contrary to the post that I was commenting on the way I had read it.

JAJ, GP

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:43:10 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE986E.04D23A40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

Is it possible to buy the old (paper)books straight from Hero Games?
I ask because I haven't found the home page yet, and here (in Sweden) no one
even knew that Hero Games were still around...

/Henrik

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE986E.04D23A40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

Is it possible to buy the old (paper)books straight =
from Hero Games?
 I ask because I haven't found the home page yet, and =
here (in Sweden) no one even knew that Hero Games were still =
around...

/Henrik


</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE986E.04D23A40--

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #321
*****************************

Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:55 PM