Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 325
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 5:28 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #325
champ-l-digest Saturday, May 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 325
In this issue:
Re: Superman weaknesses
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: Classic Super Team
RE: Elementals & Archetypes
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
The Five
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Naito Karasu, Rebel of The Five
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: How hot is hot?
Re: The Seven Deadly Sins (was New age elementals.)
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
Re: Superman tecnicolor
Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:22:16 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Superman weaknesses
Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> << Superman is like a living solar battery; he doesn't immediately lose all
> his powers when under a red sun, but they don't get replenished except
> under a yellow sun. A couple of years ago a sun-eater completely blocked
> out all the Sun's radiation, and Superman ran out of juice in a few days.
> Of course, he was really, really busy those few days...
> --_
> Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net) >>
>
> So, superman has an END pool that runs his powers, and it has the limit "can
> only replenish under yellow sun" ?
Better than that... different wavelengths of light enhance different specific
powers...
Luthor messed with him by over enhancing his various powers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:15:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team
At 05:29 PM 5/7/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>The World of Darkness's _Demon Hunter X_ by Jim Moore suggests the
>following as being atypical of Anime, but I think it rings true of
>American hero groups as well:
>
[snip original text]
>
> It goes on to say that they "live" the best in the following ways,
>and should be regarded with experience or bonus points for doing the
>following:
> Handsome Leader: Keeping the team alive through another battle,
>and through decisions he made as to how they approach the situation.
> Rebel: Beats an opponent, but does so in a way that once again
>proves his physical superiority over the Handsome Leader.
> Geek: Saves the day with another gadget, or by cracking the case
>while surfing the Internet for clues, etc.
> Bruiser: Prevents injury of another team member by taking the blow
>himself or tackling the Bad Guy(s) in the nick of time.
> Beautiful Girl: manages to keep them all together and stop them
>from killing each other.
Interestingly, this is pretty close to describing my two favorite
animated hero teams of all time, the Space Monkeys and the Road Rovers,
though each has some variation:
Type Space Monkeys Road Rovers
Leader Capt. Simian Hunter
Rebel Spyder Blitz
Geek Splitzy/Dr Splitz Shag
Bruiser Gor Illa Exile
Girl Shao-Lin Colleen
(I think it was the producers' original intent to make Shag the Bruiser
and Exile the Geek, but things turned out the way I show here.)
Of course, Spyder never really tried to show himself as superior to the
Captain, and Colleen spent at least as much time causing arguments as she
did stopping them, but the general idea is there.
Also, I wonder if it's just coincidence that both Shao-Lin and Colleen
are top-notch martial artists? (Probably.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:19:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team
At 05:38 PM 5/7/1999 EDT, Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
>Id have to say that is a fantastic formula. Im printing out a copy of that
>for refrence. Matches up with most every team i can envision, except gen13.
>
>Now, stick some powers on there.
>
>Handsome Leader (or Fearless Leader)
Your basic martial artist, probably with a ray-gun to use in ranged
combat and an armored costume for protection.
>Rebel
A feral type, with high STR and Martial Arts (as opposed to HL's medium
STR, Martial Arts, and MA Damage Classes), innate defenses, some
fancy-schmancy sensory powers, and general physical (but not intellectual)
superiority over HL.
>Geek
This would be your basic gadgeteer, and probably also a vehicle
operator. (A geek doesn't look quite so geeky when he's inside a 60-foot
mech....)
>Big Guy
A basic "brick," possibly with one or two levels of Growth (Always On).
>Beautiful Girly
Either a mentalist or an energy-controller.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:06:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team
At 05:08 PM 5/7/1999 EDT, Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
>ive passed the 2009 campaign on to my friend Chuck, who is the one who got
me
>into supers rpg's. Hes agreed that i can do the creative part better, and i
>know that almost anyone could do the power building and such with the HERO
>system better. Its now a joint effort.
>
>So, next ill do things the 'normal' way. Im gonan run a 'generic' game, and
>build the world as the characters encounter the diffrent parts. As opposed
to
>contriving an entire world before hand, and than letting them loose in it.
>
>Now, i need to know what the formula comic book team is, with 4 or 5
diffrent
>characters. just generalizations will do, like 'brick', 'fire projector'
blah
>blah.
Well, there isn't really such a thing as a "classic" team lineup, but
the basics would probably include a strongman (brick), mentalist, ranged
combat expert (either an energy controller or a marksman), close-combat
specialist (usually a martial artist or speedster, though a stretcher or
similar power can substitute), and a "wierd talent" (that is, someone that
doesn't quite fit into any of the above categories).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:25:02 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Elementals & Archetypes
At 03:06 PM 5/7/1999 -0700, Harvey, Michael wrote:
>> For the new age elementals, I 'd recommend: Time, Space, Order, Chaos.
>>
>> This gives two pairs of 'related opposites,' just as fire/water and
>> earth/air are.
>
>Ooh, very elegant. I like it!
>The four classic elements were arranged in a square:
>
> Fire HEAT Air
> DRY WET
> Earth COLD Water
>
>> Fire: Space + Chaos
>> Water: Time + Order
>> Earth: Space + Order
>> Air: Time + Chaos
>
>Using your definitions we can place the "new" elements as follows:
>
> Fire Chaos Air
> Space Time
> Earth Order Water
>
>It would be useful to define their attributes. Maybe something like:
>
> ENERGY Chaos QUANTUM
> Space Time
> DETER. Order ENTROPY
One could possibly make a grand chart from this, starting with Energy,
Quantum, Deter[whatever that is], and Entropy as the basics; then moving
down to Chaos, Space, Time, and Order; then Fire, Air, Earth, and Water;
then Dust, Ice, Lightning, and Steam (the classic para-elements); and then
Dark, Light, Metal, and Wood (interpolations I made for my Matrix Magic
Plug-In for Fuzion). Whether one could take it even further is subject to
interpretation.
Hm. I may just have a new extension for the MMPI in the works here....
>Blight ...... Order (inevitable corruption)
>Deviance .... Chaos (energetic and unpredictable)
>Progress .... Time (adaptive)
>Firepower ... Space (industrial juggernaut)
>
>You could stretch this and say that the "entropic" aspect of Order is
>vulnerable to Fire, while the "dry" aspect of fire is vulnerable to Time.
>
>I dunno. It certainly isn't perfect, but maybe it'll give someone an idea.
Well, it did. Happy now? :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:51:59 +0800
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
To: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
> Funny...I use GURPS for all my non-supers and non-super-agent games, and I
> don't seem to have a problem with Hero. Or maybe that's because they
> published something I wrote, I dunno....
>
Me too! If only I could combine the non-super power side of GURPS character
creation with the super-power creation of Champions I would be happy.
*sigh* back to tinkering around the edges.
BTW for those of you who haven't checked out Geoff Speare's house rules page
make sure you do so. It looks good and has good content too. Oh and it's
also got a few of my bits and pieces in there too :)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:15:54 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: My problems... as per your request
In a message dated 5/7/99, 4:50:45 PM, SteveL1979@aol.com writes:
<<<< See, i have no problem with HERO, so much as i have a problem with a few
of its stats, and the use of them in game. >>
Perhaps I missed it, and if so I apologize, but it would be helpful
if, rather than just saying, "There's a problem," you told us exactly *which*
parts of the system you have a problem with, and *why*, so that we can all
discuss them in a rational and enjoyable manner. :)>>
My problem with stats is this:
either... all the stats BUT STR are priced incorrectly...
or.... STR is too cheap.
i'd be perfectly happy if either were corrected. the math works like this:
5 points of STR nets 5.5 points of FIGURED stats+damage(3, as per Hand
Attack)+lifting(??). [that's 8.5 points of free stuff.] That means that STR
is free
(actually, it costs -.1 points per point, or somthing like that).
How are Ego, Body and Recovery worth TWICE as much?
How is Int and Pre worth the same?
I know, i've been told... but I still feel the same way.
I was told that the reason that STR was not changed is that all the
characters in the world would have to be changed to comply with the new rules.
and yet... other things changed. i'm sure that nothing as drastic as STR
changed, but other people will have to re-do their character sheets to comply
with the 5th ED rules. Reworking your character to meet the new rules is what
rules revision means.
I understand that the price of some powers (like aid) have gone up. that just
makes STR that much better a deal. Now (as I understand it), you have to pay
10 points per die for a STR aid (question: do you get figs from that??). You
roll your 1d6 and you add... (on average) 3 points of STR. How is this a good
deal? and it fades!!!
never buy aid... unless you have a huge multipower and want to slightly aid
another character... just buy more stats! they don't fade - or, if you like,
for a disadvantage!
that's my main problem... and again... STR is free. not fixing this leaves
the most basic hole in the system.
please understand, I do understand your reasons - I just don't agree with
them.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>I understand that the price of some powers (like aid) have gone up. that just
>makes STR that much better a deal. Now (as I understand it), you have to pay
>10 points per die for a STR aid (question: do you get figs from that??). You
>roll your 1d6 and you add... (on average) 3 points of STR. How is this a good
>deal? and it fades!!!
If Aid could not be used multiple times, with an increased Maximum, it
wouldn't be. But the fact you can spend 45 points of STR out of 30 points
of Aid under some circumstances has a lot to do with the pricing. Aid isn't
_supposed_ to be a substitute for buying other abilities after all. It's
supposed to be a suppliment to it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>never buy aid... unless you have a huge multipower and want to slightly aid
>another character... just buy more stats! they don't fade - or, if you like,
>for a disadvantage!
I also should note that buying Aid has a number of other ways to be a good
deal...even an overly good deal. For example, I buy an extended fade rate
Aid, with a slightly extended maximum. I Aid my STR...and the STR of
everyone in the group. Then we go into battle. You can get a heck of a lot
of bang for your buck out of this operation.
Now if you ask whether to boost yours, and only your own abilities, if
straight Aid without maximum increase is a cost effective way to go...no,
it isn't. Nor should it be. If it was, the extended fade rate and extended
maximum cases (and the combined cases) would be godawful, as is the case
under the current rule.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:56:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: The Five
I'm making up a group of Anime-esque agents known as "The Five."
Actually, it's "The Five, remainder 2," but the two don't count, as one is
there for Comic Relief and Cuteness and the other is there as a Pet (and
is, as well "cute.")
Here's my line up so far:
Shinshi Soushu- The Handsome Leader. Mature, brave, and skilled,
he leads the Five.
Naito Karasu- The Rebel of the party. A skilled Martial Artist
with a mysterious past. He suffers from amnesia, and is a "skilled
ametur." Deadly with a sword.
Rikou Nezuni- The Geek of the party. Although very young, he is
very skilled, and can fix nearly anything. His knowledge far trancends
his age. He is the resident "nosebleeder."
"Rocky" Oushi- The Bruiser of the group. An ex-professional
Wrestler from American origins, mainly hired for muscle where muscle is
needed.
Dara Shinai- The Beautiful Girl is more than she seems. A latent
psionic whose perceptions, and genre specific counciling skills, are
invaluable to the group.
Then there's Dara's little sister, Okiko, who is the cut and
annoying aspect.
Dara will also have a "pet baby dragon" or a spirit, or fairy, or
something equally silly and pokemonish.
The first write-up will be of Naito ('cause the rebel is always
the coolest.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:05:24 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
In a message dated 5/7/99 7:18:27 PM, AndMat3@aol.com writes:
>that's my main problem... and again... STR is free. not fixing this leaves
>the most basic hole in the system.=20
>
Well, STR is not free; you can't sell off more than one figured=20
Characteristic, and you may not need all the extras you get from STR. Also,=20
the cost of STR is part of an intricate balance of cost breaks in other area=
s=20
(such as power frameworks).
As for the 5th Edition requiring reworking of all character sheets, it does=20
nothing of the sort. All stat costs remain unchanged. Most power costs=20
haven't changed (except for Aid, which is now at 10 points/die which is more=20
balanced). And we explicitly say you can "grandfather" existing characters=20
into the 5th Edition; leave their writeups unchanged and they work just fine=20
(since the basic game systems remain unchanged). However, we've added so man=
y=20
new options to a lot of powers that I expect players will *want* to rewrite=20
characters to take advantage of new choices... which is *not* the same as=20
requiring rewrites.
We have also put in some suggestions for those who are concerned about the=20
costs of stats such as STR. Our main suggestion (remember, this is an option=
)=20
to "fix" the perceived problem that some have with STR, CON, DEX, etc. is=20
this: Remove the relationship between the primary stats and the figured=20
stats. All figured stats start at the current base level (that is, figured a=
s=20
if the primary stats were 10); you buy up figured stats if you wish. Figured=20
stats get no benefit at all from higher primary stats. This is a simple hous=
e=20
rule to implement, and solves the perceived problem with no cost changes=20
required.
=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:04:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>We have also put in some suggestions for those who are concerned about the
>costs of stats such as STR. Our main suggestion (remember, this is an option)
>to "fix" the perceived problem that some have with STR, CON, DEX, etc. is
>this: Remove the relationship between the primary stats and the figured
>stats. All figured stats start at the current base level (that is, figured as
>if the primary stats were 10); you buy up figured stats if you wish. Figured
>stats get no benefit at all from higher primary stats. This is a simple house
>rule to implement, and solves the perceived problem with no cost changes
>required.
The problem with that is that at that point Consitution is probably too
expensive. Most of what it does for you is give you figured stats; 2 points
a point is too expensive just to make you harder to stun.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Naito Karasu, Rebel of The Five
NAITO KARASU
Val=09CHA=09Cost=09Roll=09Notes
18=09STR=09 8=0913-=09350kg; 3d6+1
27=09DEX=0951=0914-=09OCV: 9 / DCV: 9
16=09CON=0912=0912-
16=09BODY=0912=0912-
10=09INT=09 0=0911-=09PER Roll 11-
12=09EGO=09 4=0911-
15=09PRE=09 5=0912-=09PRE Attack: 3d6
14=09COM=09 2=0912-
6=09PD=09 2
5=09ED=09 2=09=09
6=09SPD=0923
8=09REC=09 2
32=09END=09 0
35=09STUN=09 2
Total Characteristics Cost: 125
Movement:
Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost=09Powers & Skills
Combat Training: Yougrasu Ninjitsu
Cost=09Name=09=09Maneuver=09=09OCV=09DCV=09Damage
5=09Jab=09=09Defensive Strike=09+1=09+3=09STR
4=09Strike=09=09Martial Strike=09=09 0=09+2=09STR+2d6
5=09Roundhouse=09Offensive Strike=09-2=09+1=09STR+4d6
4=09Block=09=09Martial Block=09=09+2=09+2=09Block/Abort
4=09Side Step=09Martial Dodge=09=09--=09+5=09Dodge/Abort
4=09Atemi Touch=09Nerve Strike=09=09-1=09+1=092d6 NND
5=09Iron Claw=09Choke Hold=09=09-2=09 0=09Grab,2d6NND
4=09Knife Hand=09Killing Strike=09=09-2=09 0=091/2d6 HKA
4=09Disarm=09=09Martial Disarm=09=09-1=09+1=09Disarm,STR+10
4=82=09Escape=09=09Martial Escape=09=09 0=09 0=09+15STRvs.Grab
1=09Use MA with Sword
10=09+2 OCV w/ Martial Attacks
2=09+1 w/ Sword
3=09Acrobatics
3=09Breakfall
3=09Stealth
2 =09Mystery KS: Yogarasu Ninja Clan Knowledge & past
3=09Combat Sense
10=09Defense Maneuver
2=09Lightning Reflexes: +6 DEX; Only to go first (-1), Only with sword
=09attacks (-1/2)
3 =09Fast Draw
1 =09Latent Find Weakness
26=096d6 AID "Second Wind," Effects END, STUN, and BODY all at once
=09(+2), Trigger: When loosing in combat (+1/4); 1 Recoverable Charge
=09(-1 1/4), Restorative (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2),
=09Requires CON Roll (-1/2)
13=092d6 HKA; OAF: No Dachi (-1), Real Blade (-1/4)
100+=09Disadvantages
15=09Enraged: When in combat with an enemy (Very Common, 14-, 11- to
=09recover)
15=09Distinctive Features: Grim visage with dark, deathly voice
=09frightening penetrating gaze, black hair and dark red eyes
=09(Concealable, Is always noticed and causes major prejudice)
10=09DNPC: Normal, -8 "Shinai's Little Sister" (who has a crush
=09on the Rebel.)
15=09Hunted: Mystery Hunted (More Powerful, 8-)
5=09Physical Limitation: Partial Amnesia and Flashbacks from past=20
=09(Infrequent, Slightly)
15=09Psychological Limitation: Dislikes authority (Very Common,
=09Moderate)
10=09Psychological Limitation: A bit unstable, will take unnecessary
=09risks, fearless in this regard (Common, Moderate)
15=09Psychological Limitation: Secretive (Common, Strong)
5=09Psychological Limitation: On the edge of Darkness (Vigilantism,
=09Killing, Murder, and Bloodthirsty Behaviour) (Uncommon, Moderate)
20=09Rivalry: With Team Leader (Professional and Romantic, Rival is in
=09Superior Team Rank, Rival is PC)
15=09Secret ID: Hidden Past (Yogarasu Ninja)
10=09Watched: By FIVE organization, As Powerful, -8
Designers Notes:
=09A pretty straight forward Martial Artist with a huge sword and
tons of Martial Arts training.
=09This character has deadly efficency and speed as his advantage.
=09Note, his "Second Wind" ability is in no way supernatural. It is
pure cinematic fun.
Description:
=09Naito is a grim visage with a dark, deathly voice, a frightening
penetrating gaze. His hair is night black hair, and his dark red eyes are
the colour of blood.
=09Naito can be summed up in one word: intense. He's the type of man
who is quiet and mysterious enough to make you wonder, and good looking
enough to make the ladies swoon. He has that Japanese Anime "walking
against the wind, hair in eyes" thing going on... (a lot of close ups of
his eyes highlighted and his pupils dialating).
=09Naito has a very dark, edgy side that you can almost feel.
=09Naito wears casual clothes, always dark. On missions, Naito wears
a modern black stealth suit that covers most of his body and his black
steel No Dachi on his back.
Disadvantages Notes (spoiler included):
=09Naito has a troubled past. He was once a Yogarasu clan ninja... a
master assassin. His father, the clan leader, commanded him to kill his
one and only true love, Aelita (who he knew since childhood, they shared=20
tutors), as proof of loyalty to his clan.
=09Despite the fact that he followed his father's orders and went
through with the brutal murder with cold, calculating efficency, she still
was able to mutter three last words before dying.
=09"...I ...love ...you."
=09and she died.
=09Naito snapped, blanked out, and wandered the streets aimlessly in=20
search of a purpose, until he was found by the Five organization.
=09
=09Naito will always be haunted by his beloved Aelita's death--
secretly, within his heart. His anguish is reflected in his eyes.
His past is reflected on his friends... Shinai's little sister reminds him
of Aelita as a child, Shinai reminds him of Aelita... Shinshi and the
Five organization remind him of the authority the clan once held over
him...
=09With such painful memories, it's a wonder why he stays. Perhaps
so he can remember, perhaps so he can mourn, perhaps for his own penance
and the forgiveness of his beloved Aelita. Either way, he has a slight
self destructive streak, apparent in the all out way he fights.
His Psychological Limitation, on the edge of Darkness, represents his
"shadow self"- echoes of his former life trapped in his subconscious. He
is still the same man, after all.
=09The Hunted represents his clan, who want him back or dead.
(Naito Karasu created by Jason Sullivan, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
>
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
On Fri, 7 May 1999, Lance Dyas wrote:
> > About the
> > only thing that does the wild-action style of gaming better is Feng Shui.
>
> I'm not familiar with it?
Feng Shui simulates the wild action of HK cinema. Martial artists, magic,
gunfighters, wierd science. Think Hard Boiled/The Killer/Once Upon a Time
in China and you can't go wrong.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"We are men of action. Lies do not become us."
Westley, the Man in Black (Cary Elwes), from _The Princess Bride_
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:02:26 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
In a message dated 5/7/99 10:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shaw@caprica.com
writes:
> If Aid could not be used multiple times, with an increased Maximum, it
> wouldn't be. But the fact you can spend 45 points of STR out of 30 points
> of Aid under some circumstances has a lot to do with the pricing. Aid
isn't
> _supposed_ to be a substitute for buying other abilities after all. It's
> supposed to be a suppliment to it.
that's not my point. my point is this: you could buy extra STR as "power
pills" or you could buy it as an aid. (which is most likely is). if (say) you
wanted and extra 24 points of STR (that would be 7d6 of aid)... it would cost
you 24 points (minus disads) if you purchased it as straight STR. or it would
cost you 70 points if you purchased it as aid.
andy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:05:42 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
In a message dated 5/7/99 10:41:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shaw@caprica.com
writes:
> I also should note that buying Aid has a number of other ways to be a good
> deal...even an overly good deal. For example, I buy an extended fade rate
> Aid, with a slightly extended maximum. I Aid my STR...and the STR of
> everyone in the group. Then we go into battle. You can get a heck of a
lot
> of bang for your buck out of this operation.
you may have a point here. but a rapacious player might say "what about
usable by self + 4 at range"... that's a +1.5 advantage (i think)... making 5
points of STR cost 12 points. (minus limitations for no figs and such)... to
get 5 (or 6) points of STR with Aid would require 20 points of effect. IMHO,
this would be illegal, but not unthinkable (as I have just thought of it).
andy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>In a message dated 5/7/99 10:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shaw@caprica.com
>writes:
>
>> If Aid could not be used multiple times, with an increased Maximum, it
>> wouldn't be. But the fact you can spend 45 points of STR out of 30 points
>> of Aid under some circumstances has a lot to do with the pricing. Aid
>isn't
>> _supposed_ to be a substitute for buying other abilities after all. It's
>> supposed to be a suppliment to it.
>
>that's not my point. my point is this: you could buy extra STR as "power
>pills" or you could buy it as an aid. (which is most likely is). if (say) you
>wanted and extra 24 points of STR (that would be 7d6 of aid)... it would cost
>you 24 points (minus disads) if you purchased it as straight STR. or it would
>cost you 70 points if you purchased it as aid.
Or considerably less if you utilized extended Maximum, as I said. You can't
looke at just the cost of dice of Aid to figure out the balance points. You
have to look at the whole structure including things you can do with
extended Maximums and the like. 24 Points can get you as _34_ points of STR
if done properly; it just requires a bit of extra time. And as the points
go up, this is more and more true.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>In a message dated 5/7/99 10:41:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shaw@caprica.com
>writes:
>
>> I also should note that buying Aid has a number of other ways to be a good
>> deal...even an overly good deal. For example, I buy an extended fade rate
>> Aid, with a slightly extended maximum. I Aid my STR...and the STR of
>> everyone in the group. Then we go into battle. You can get a heck of a
>lot
>> of bang for your buck out of this operation.
>
>you may have a point here. but a rapacious player might say "what about
>usable by self + 4 at range"... that's a +1.5 advantage (i think)... making 5
>points of STR cost 12 points. (minus limitations for no figs and such)... to
>get 5 (or 6) points of STR with Aid would require 20 points of effect. IMHO,
>this would be illegal, but not unthinkable (as I have just thought of it).
It also has a lot of other limits on it, such as range to the original
owner. Aid can get very, very robust if used carefully.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 04:18:38 -0400
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com>
Subject: Re: How hot is hot?
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>At 03:09 PM 5/7/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>>On Fri, 7 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>
>>> So, what sort of an RKA would 4000 degrees C (or 7200 degrees F)
produce?
>>>
>>
>> Someone on this list posted rules for converting real world heat
>>units (joules) to Champion's dice of damage.
>>
>> I'm actually _actively searching_ for these rules, as they were
>>really neat and will probally want a nice happy home in my house rule
>>section.
>
> It was Len Carpenter who did this. I've saved the article twice, and
>apparently lost it again.
> If memory serves correctly (and it probably doesn't), my old rule of
>using 2d6 for 100 degrees C and adding 1d6 per 2X temperature held more or
>less correctly, so 4000 degrees C would be 7-1/2d6, give or take a bit.
>Converted to Killing damage, that'd come out to about 2-1/2d6.
I've dug up that original post on heat and temperature, a response to a
question from Bob Greenwade. It grew out of a discussion on relating
damage dice to a repeated doubling scale of damage energy. I noted that
the old Champions II table of vehicle damage, for example, has a 100-kg
vehicle travelling at 6"/segment (7,200 joules of KE) doing 8d6 damage, the
vehicle moving at 8"/segment (12,800 joules) doing 9d6, the vehicle moving
at 12"/segment (28,800 joules) doing 10d6, and so on. Every doubling of
the vehicle's mass adds an extra +1d6 damage.
I've done quite a bit of tinkering with the game's energy/mass/STR/BODY
scales since then, so my current house-rules approach is different from
when I first though about such issues. But here's the old post.
BEGIN
LC>> To get a better grasp on the nature of damage energy, a simple
>> guideline I adopted some time ago was to treat 1 DC as roughly
>> equal to 50 joules of energy. I read somewhere that a typical punch
>> is in the 25-100 joule range, so this seemed reasonable. For every
>> additional DC, the energy involved doubles--a 2d6 punch is about
>> 100 joules, a 3d6 kick about 200 joules, and so on. This neatly
>> follows the same numbers in the progression of the doubling of lift
LC>> mass with increasing STR.
>
BG> Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules
BG> into, say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would
you?
>
So Bob Greenwade asks. Gimme a minute while I dig out my old college
physics text.
The kilocalorie (or kcal, which is the same as the food Calorie, which is
actually 1,000 calories) is equal to 4,187 joules of mechanical energy. 1
calorie will raise 1 gm of water from 14.5 to 15.5 degrees Centigrade. So
4,187 J of mechanical energy will raise the temperature of 1 kg of water by
1 degree Celsius, just as will 1,000 cal.
From there, you can translate 1 DC into 50 J * (1,000 cal/4,187 J) = 12
calories of heat energy. Call it 10 calories for a nice, round number. A
12d6 EB of heat energy packs about 100 kJ or 20 kcal. A 24d6 EB packs 400
MJ or 80,000 kcal, enough energy to turn 100 kg of room-temperature water
into vapor, even when you factor in the heat of vaporization for water, 539
kcal/kg. That's enough energy to instantly vaporize a normal human.
I suppose one could call a cold-based energy attack one that drains a
comparable amount of heat energy from a target. A 24d6 cold ray that
drains 80,000 kcal from that same human would leave him just as dead.
(Note that the heat of fusion of water is only 80 kcal/kg, so that same
amount of cold energy could freeze considerably more than 100 kg of water,
though that's really a Transformation Attack.)
Translating heat energy into degrees of temperature gets tricky.
Substances differ in the quantity of heat needed to produce a given rise in
temperature in a given mass. The ratio of the amount of heat energy
delta-Q supplied to a body to its corresponding temperature rise delta-T is
the body heat's capacity C, or C = delta-Q/delta-T.
The specific heat c, or heat capacity per unit mass of a body, is a
characteristic of the material of which the body is composed. Specific
heat c = delta-Q/(m * delta-T). At 20 degrees Celsius and 1.0 ATM, water
has a specific heat of 1.00 cal/(g degree Centigrade). The specific heat
of aluminum is 0.215, copper 0.092, and lead 0.031. Generally, the greater
an element's atomic weight, the lower its specific heat.
Knowing the specific heat, the current temperature, the melting/freezing
point of a given material, and the material's heat of vaporization/fusion,
you can calculate how much heat/cold energy is required to melt an iron
golem or turn a liquid-metal Terminator 2-type cyborg into a popsicle. And
there are still the flash or ignition points of flammable materials to be
considered. All very messy.
To easily translate damage dice into degrees of temperature, you have to
choose a standard material and a standard unit of mass. Suppose you pick
water, the basic material of life. Water can store a lot of heat, so
temperature figures for damage dice don't sound so impressive. Treat BODY
as the standard unit of mass, and you have to choose between living or
unliving matter, a choice between 1 BODY equals 200 gm or 1 BODY equals 1.6
kg, a choice that changes temperature figures by a factor of eight.
I'm inclined to pick some generic form of steel as the standard material,
since how well a hero can blast through armor seems to be the true way to
measure a character's mettle (yes, pun intended). That gives a specific
heat in the range of 0.1. I personally think the BODY figures for unliving
matter to be too low, save for somewhat inelastic and brittle materials, so
I'd use the mass figure for living matter and vehicles.
1d6 of energy is 10 calories, which would raise 200 gm of a material with a
specific heat of 0.1 by about 0.5 degrees Celsius. A 12d6 attack would
raise that 1 BODY of metal by 1,000 degrees, and a 24d6 attack by four
million degrees. By way of comparison, the sun's surface is about 6,000
degrees (15 DC), the sun's core 15 million degrees (26 DC), and the center
of an H-bomb explosion exceeds 300 million degrees (31 DC).
END
Overall, this translation from mechanical to heat energy in Hero is crude
and breaks down at points if you think about it too much. Pour 100,000
joules of heat energy into a pail of water and throw the water at a tree,
and all that energy won't do very much to the tree. But 100 kJ of energy
in the form of a projectile or a small TNT charge will do some real damage.
The way energy is transferred to a target complicates things mightily.
For my current purposes, I now treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 25 joules at
the beginning of the energy scale. The repeated doubling scale for energy
and mass I've also changed to more clearly separate the superhuman from the
merely human. Makes the world more dangerous, and means you gotta roll
more dice for high damage attacks like anti-tank guns and such. It's less
four-color and cinematic than official Hero, but doesn't go quite as far
as, say, GURPS, where you might see hundreds of hits of damage done by high
explosives and AT guns aimed at a 2,000 HT main battle tank.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 04:06:54 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Seven Deadly Sins (was New age elementals.)
At 08:02 AM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>> So which one's Yul Brynner?
>>Um...Sloth? He certainly isn't doing much these days...
>>
>>"OK, if you're the seven sins, who's that propped up in the corner?"
>>"Sloth."
>>"Looks a bit...dead."
>>"Well, we're not really sure. He could be just having a really good nap."
>
> [sniffs] "Yep. He's dead all right. Been some time, too."
> (I just checked the Internet Movie Database at www.imdb.com to learn
>that Yul died of lung cancer on 10 October 1985. His last work was
>narrating 1980's "Lost to the Revolution.")
Actually, his last work was an ad for the American Cancer Society. It's
the very famous one where he looks directly into the camera and says "I'm
dead now, and smoking killed me."
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 04:24:15 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is dead?
At 12:33 PM 5/7/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/7/99 12:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>HeroGames@aol.com writes:
>
><< However, I'm not responsible if someone misinterprets what I say, or
> misremembers something I said. Which does happen. >>
>
>Ahh, the "politician" line. heh. i love it when people say they dont lie,
>than pull this line.
>
Hey, play nice.
It's true, and if I found lots of people thinking that I had told lies when
I hadn't, I'd say the same thing. I imagine you would, too.
For instance, I could quote you in a month or so as having "Attacked Steve
Patterson and Hero games, calling them chronic liars." Truth is, you never
directly said that you think Steve or anyone else at Hero has lied. At
least not in this post. And If I remember it wrong in a month, is that
your fault?
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 04:43:19 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Superman tecnicolor
At 05:03 PM 5/7/99 EDT, you wrote:
>>> No, that would be Green Lantern (who was helpless against anything<<
>>>yellow). <<
>
>It was yellow. Ahh. I think i was thinking of Green Lantern, because it was
>yellow that i was thinking of.
>
>Or it might have just been a delusion of mine. i havent read anything DC in
>years and years.
>
>
Kryptonite came in different colors and had different effects on Superman
depending on the color. One was Red, one was Green. I don't know if there
was a Yellow.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 04:49:37 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks
At 06:06 PM 5/7/99 EDT, you wrote:
>This is a rule i have lived by with every character ive made, or supervised
>since i got the bbb. It is used to explain how all the super chicks, and
some
>of the super guys, are slimmer than your average human, but can toss around
>oldsmobiles like baseballs, and why other supers of equal or compairable
>strength is the size of the oldsmobile.
>
>If the character buys theyre strength up stat as a base stat, they are huge.
>If they buy theyre strength as part of theyre power package, they can
dictate
>size.
>
>Basically, i used Gen13 for all my models, just cause i happen to like the
>feel of that particular comic over all others ive found.
>
>The leader of em is a trim and fit girl, with a super model figure. She also
>fills the Brick slot.
>
>
I always thought that normal looking people whith superstrength had bought
some of their strength with Invisable.
Another female brick can be found on the team The Southern Knights (it was
a small press comic). She looked like a cheerleader but could punch out a
building.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
So this is Earth. Not what I expected. Oh, well, I'll have to make do.
"Behold Earthians! Your new lord has arrived!"
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #325
*****************************
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:55 PM