Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 330

Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 330
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:13 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #330

champ-l-digest Monday, May 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 330

In this issue:

RE: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks
Re: Female Bricks (was CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks)
Trigger was Alchemist
Re: Alchemist
Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Classic Super Team
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Alchemist
Re: My problems... as per your request
[Fwd: Trigger Question]
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
RE: CHAR: Succubus
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: Alchemist
Re: Female Bricks (was CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks)
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: Alchemist
RE: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: Alchemist
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Superman tecnicolor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:56:16 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks

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Hmm... Sounds like my current batch of PCs: a 30,000 year old alien, a 3,000
year old elven mage, a trans-dimensional loonie and his demon-posessed
sidekick, a psionic private eye, an ex-russian ex-assassin and my own
character, a were-dragon mage...

/Henrik

- -----Original Message-----
From: Stephen B. Mann [mailto:smann@cnsvax.albany.edu]
Sent: den 10 maj 1999 15:41
To: geoff heald
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks

geoff heald wrote:
> Another female brick can be found on the team The Southern Knights (it was
> a small press comic). She looked like a cheerleader but could punch out a
> building.

Yep, the Southern Knights were an interesting team. Only one real
"superhero" on the team, supported and abbetted by an Olympic fencer
with a stun-only psionic lightsaber, the aforementioned beautiful and
rich brick, a retired dragon, and a 17th or 18th century teen
mage-in-training who spent the past coupla centuries sleeping behind
their fireplace.
And the local Viper-equivalent crime boss was another dragon.

- --

Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln

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Hmm... Sounds like my current batch of PCs: a 30,000 =
year old alien, a 3,000 year old elven mage, a trans-dimensional loonie =
and his demon-posessed sidekick, a psionic private eye, an ex-russian =
ex-assassin and my own character, a were-dragon mage...

/Henrik


-----Original Message-----
 From: Stephen B. Mann [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:smann@cnsvax.albany.edu">mailto:smann@cnsvax.albany.edu</=
A>]
 Sent: den 10 maj 1999 15:41
 To: geoff heald
 Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
 Subject: Re: CHAMP: muscular men and slick =
chicks

 

geoff heald wrote:
 > Another female brick can be found on the team =
The Southern Knights (it was
 > a small press comic).  She looked like a =
cheerleader but could punch out a
 > building.


     Yep, the Southern Knights =
were an interesting team. Only one real
 "superhero" on the team, supported and =
abbetted by an Olympic fencer
 with a stun-only psionic lightsaber, the =
aforementioned beautiful and
 rich brick, a retired dragon, and a 17th or 18th =
century teen
 mage-in-training who spent the past coupla centuries =
sleeping behind
 their fireplace.
      And the local =
Viper-equivalent crime boss was another dragon.


-- 


Stephen B. =
Mann           &n=
bsp;   smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
 SUNY Learning =
Network         <A =
HREF=3D"http://sln.suny.edu/sln" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://sln.suny.edu/sln</A>


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:02:48 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Female Bricks (was CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks)

geoff heald wrote:
>
> At 01:55 PM 5/8/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 5/8/99 11:48:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
> >
> ><< Which brings to mind... how many female bricks can people think of in
> > comics and animated TV? The ones I can think of offhand include:
> >
> > Big Bertha (of the Female Furies)
> > Ms Marvel
> > Power Girl
> > Rogue
> > She-Hulk
> > Supergirl
> > Wonder Girl
> > Wonder Woman >>
> >
> >The leader of gen13
> >the femal kryptonian from the superman movie
> >inque from Batman Beyond
> >American Maid, from the tick
> >
>
> I don't think Inque is really a brick. She's tough and all, but maybe a
> martial artist would be a better description.

I would say that American Maid is not a brick either.

- -Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:10:35 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Trigger was Alchemist

The way I always understood Trigger is that you pay endurance for the
power and do everything except actually have the power "go off". As part
of the Trigger you declare an event that causes the power to "go off."

Someone has said that this doesn't make the power persistant. This might
be. However, I would like to know then how you make a land mine? The
only way you could do it is make it Independent?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:50:46 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

(As a complete aside, in my FH game right now I would handle alchemy in the
same way as I would handle a character who wanted to be a blacksmith: with
the right skills, time, and materials, you can make things without spending
character points. However, the magic system in my FH game would best be
described as atypical. :)

>1. Potions are liquids which, when drunk, provide certain powers or
>abilities to the person drinking them. As an object, a potion is a Focus
>(OAF). As a liquid which can easily be spilled, diluted, or spoiled, I'd
>call it a Fragile OAF to boot.

Sure, though of course there will be exceptions (see DMG :).

>2. Potions are brewed by alchemists using all sorts of components, some
>difficult/dangerous to acquire, some not so much. In part this depends on
>the campaign setting and the specific potion. This sounds more or less like
>applying the Expendable modifier to the Focus, to varying degrees depending
>upon specifics. I'd call the end result: OAF Fragile (easily spilled or
>diluted potion; ingredients may be Expendable to some degree).

Sure...

>3. The person who brews the potion doesn't necessarily have to be the person
>using it. For the most part, anyone can drink, and obtain the benefits of, a
>potion. To me, this primarily sounds like the Focus is Universal. In some
>games the GM might want you to apply Usable By Others to get that sort of
>effect, but that doesn't seem necessary to me because of the special effects
>involved here. YMMV.

I'm on the fence here: a Universal Focus seems like a clean way to go,
except that it's really simulating an Advantage with a Limitation which
seems like a no-no. I would note, however, that the UBO text says "It is
not necessary to buy this Power Advantage to create a Focus that can be
used by other characters; this is already a part of the Focus Limitation."

Let's assume for the moment that we ignore this sentence...

>6. Brewing up a potion involves a lot of procedures -- throwing ingredients
>into a pot, chanting, concentrating, scribbling formulae, and whatnot -- that
>drinking the potion does not. The best way to simulate this sort of thing,
>IMO, is Delayed Effect. This also limits the number of potions Ye Alchemist
>can walk around in the game with (to INT/5 potions, or what have you),
>providing a balancing factor.

I don't think Delayed Effect is right for a couple reasons:

1) The "casting" character is the only one who can invoke Delayed Effect. A
potion could be drunk halfway across the world without the creator's knowledge.

2) Hm, actually make that one reason. :)

Also, if you want an INT/5 limit, mandate it as a limitation.

Trigger makes a lot more sense: "Drink me" = activate power.

>POTION OF GIANT STRENGTH: +30 STR, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (37 Active Points);
>OAF Fragile Expendable (easily spilled or diluted liquid, brewed from giant's
>blood and other components which are difficult or expensive to acquire; -1
>1/2), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1/4), Concentrate (has 0
>DCV while brewing potioni; -1/2), Extra Time (takes minimum of 1 Hour to brew
>potion; -2 1/2), Gestures (must make arcane gestures while brewing potion;
>-1/4), Incantations (must incant magical formulae while brewing potion;
>-1/4), Requires An Alchemy Roll (-1/2). Total cost: 5 points.

Shouldn't that be Aid? :p

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:51:57 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies

I didn't realize that this would be such a hot bed of discussion :) Thank you all
for suggestions. Please don't stop.

Okay, First I refuse to use Independent. I can't believe that anytime something
is created people are spending character points on it. Look at it from a real
world perspective. If everyone is making things Independent where are all the
points coming from....yes I know it is just a game...I am just trying to make a
point.

When I want an Alchemist this is what I want (Note that this might differ from
what other people want, like I said this is what I want.):
This is a magical character type that can use almost scientific magical
formulas to create potions, oils, dust, and whatever. When used in a prescribed
fashion these will cause a magical effect. He should be able to continue to
create these "potions" as long as he is able to 1)stay awake and 2)find component
materials used to make the potions.
Once the potions are made they should have NO tie to the creator. They
should can be used by ANYONE at ANYTIME. If he wishes to save them fine. If he
wants 500 healing potions, as long as he can find the components, fine. If he
wants to sell them fine.
I am assuming that each time the Alchemist creates his item he is
creating ONE dose or use. If the Alchemist wants to create multiple doses of a
healing potion, for example, then he creates the item multiple times. Thus he
could create the potion 5 times and put it in a bottle saying that it is 5 doses
of a Healing Potion.

That said he is what I have revised to. Note that these are the BASE limitations.
Several others can be added at the players option.

OAF Fragile Expendable, Universal (easily spilled or diluted liquid, components
which are difficult or expensive to acquire; -1 1/2)
- -1/2 Requires Skill Roll (This is made by the Alchemist when the potion is made.
Secretly if need be.)
+1/4 Trigger: Use the Item.
+1/2 Cost 0 END (I didn't buy Persistant, because then a person drinks one potion
of , say Giant Strength thank you Steve Long, and they would have if forever.
Though that is an interesting idea...umm.....)

Why not Charges? I am unsure of this one. Maybe someone can help. The way I
have always thought of charges is that the power can be used once in a certain
amount of time...say a day. So if I give this power charges does that mean that
the finished potion has the charges or the creator of the potion. If the creator
of the potion has the charges that means he is limited to creating a number of
potions NO MATTER how many reagents he has. He could have enough reagents to make
100 potions, but because he bought the power with 4 charges he can ony make 4 per
day. Is this right or wrong? If this is right then I don't want Charges.

I have already stated my total hatred for Independent. If Independent is
really used for Magic Items and Potions then there never would be any ever
created.

I like Trigger, because delayed effect depends to much upon the creator of
the item. As I said, if my alchemist has enough reagents to make 100 potions I
want him to be able to make 100 potions. That is like telling a person with a
gun...well I realize your have 30 bullets, and your gun can carry them, but you
can only put 10 in your gun because one of your stats is two low.

I didn't include Extra Time, because the way I see it once the potion is drunk
it can be used immediately. Of course some could have the Extra Time limitation
showing that the potion takes time to work.

Well, what do you think again...anymore comments. Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:54:47 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

I think stat costs should be changed. Making Figured Characteristics
"unfigured" is the quickest way to do this, and, it could be argued, the
least intrusive (STR doesn't get more expensive, easy to grandfather
existing characters).

I do agree with Wayne Shaw, however, that just decoupling Primary and
Figured Characteristics is not enough. I would lower CON to 1 point and
raise DEX to 4 points (yes, even without SPD I think DEX is too cheap at 3).

I think it's important to have the base, printed system be as free from
cost inequalities and loopholes as possible. As the recent INT debate
pointed out, there are some oddities to the Hero stat system, and those
oddities are affecting new players' perceptions of the game.

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1999 10:58:00 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Super Team

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* "B.C. Holmes" <bcholmes@interlog.com> on Sun, 09 May 1999
| Other Guy: (whatsisname?)

Jason (Condor Joe)
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:27:36 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>Actually, I never said anything about that. You're confusing me with
>someone else. What I said was that if you remove the figured
>characteristics from Constitution, that the other things it does under
>the standard rules do not make it worth two points per point. If you
>disagree with that, then respond to it...not a point I never made.

The same argument applies - you see the cost of CON as too high and I do
not. Take out mention of onbe game mechanic and add in the one about CON
and it's exactly the same point.

You see a problem where I do not. What's wrong with using a house rule
your very wn self to fix the problem to you percieve?

>Since I was addressing a suggested _fix_ for the problems with some
stats,
>perhaps you could actually look at what I'm saying rather than missing
>my point?

No, I think I'm doing fine. Thank you! And what suggested fix were you
addressing?

> I'm not talking about a current cost feature at all. I'm talking
>about the fix Steve Peterson was suggesting for people who dislike some
of
>the stat costs and saying why I thought _that_ was a bad idea, unless
you
>changed other things.

Then do not use Steve petersons fix...

>If you aren't paying attention to a thread, it'd be really nice not to
>respond to it.

But, oh, so much more boring!

>Labelling them off topic for a discussion about why changing a rule in
one
>specific way without changing others, on the other hand, is a simple
>attempt to keep the discussion to a manageable level.

Was Steve Peterson suggesting a fully thought out and play tested
optional rule or as he throwing out an idea to explore as a house rule
and refine as the player went?

>[Much snippage of stuff showing a complete misunderstanding of what I
>was talking about]

Oh my God! I've been edited!

>>Too expensive from whose POV and from which useage? And why take off
the
>>figured stats?
>
>See my point about not having paid attention to what the thread was
>about?

As far as I can see the point remains the same. I don't see a problem
with the game as written. Someone (you? some one else?) doesn't like that
element. So design a house rule to fix it. But you say that house rules
are irrelevant- So what exactly do you want again?

>I'm sorry if this is surly, but it really is hard to have a discussion
>when someone is responding to your post in effectively, a non-sequitor.

If you say so. Have a good afternoon anyway.

Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]

Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-

http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/

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------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1999 11:08:37 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Sun, 09 May 1999
| I'd say all this depends on the value of the items that make a potion up,
| and how difficult they are to recover. How rare alchemists are, etc, its
| campaign based. If you are in a typical AD&D world where potions roll down
| the streets like rain, probably its not worth anything.

I think I was unclear. Is the potion difficult for the alchemist to
replace, or is it difficult for the person quaffing the potion to replace?

[...]
| Charges seems valid for this, IF you build it as an indepedant, as most
| would.

An NPC alchemist would, since points do not matter so much for them. For a
PC alchemist, things get a little weird. Or a lot weird.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:15:12 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

>You see a problem where I do not. What's wrong with using a house rule
>your very wn self to fix the problem to you percieve?

The usual reason: Wayne think he's right. I happen to agree with him. :)
Although, I'd be much happier if the decoupling of Figured Characteristics
had been made official and this was all we had to argue about!

Geoff Speare

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:28:59 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: [Fwd: Trigger Question]

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Okay, I have a power that I can grant to someone else. I also have Trigger on the
same power.Example:
I create a power Growth and grant it to someone else using the Trigger
that it will go off if the person is attacked by brown bears.
If I also put the limitation of Incantations on the power, only to start.
When do these Incantations take place? When I grant the power? Or does the reciepent
of the power have to perform the Incantations once the Trigger is set off?

- --------------ACF6FFEDFFE37BA52AB39AD1--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:35:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: aregalad@miami.edu
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

Hi Steve,

Although your house rule is interesting, it still doesn't fix MY problem
with stats. :] Actually, the only stat _I_ have a problem with is INT. It
is only useful in increments of 5, so how do I encourage my players to buy
a 14 INT if a 13 is just as good? A house rule I've implemented (and one
that was suggested by two good net buddies) is having INT figure into SPD.
The Speed formula in my campaigns is now (DEX+INT)/10.

Anyway, I was wondering if you guys address the INT "problem" at all in
5th Edition?

Take care,

Dragonfly

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:34:11 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

Geoff Speare wrote:
>
> I think stat costs should be changed. Making Figured Characteristics
> "unfigured" is the quickest way to do this, and, it could be argued, the
> least intrusive (STR doesn't get more expensive, easy to grandfather
> existing characters).
>
> I do agree with Wayne Shaw, however, that just decoupling Primary and
> Figured Characteristics is not enough. I would lower CON to 1 point and
> raise DEX to 4 points (yes, even without SPD I think DEX is too cheap at 3).
>
> I think it's important to have the base, printed system be as free from
> cost inequalities and loopholes as possible. As the recent INT debate
> pointed out, there are some oddities to the Hero stat system, and those
> oddities are affecting new players' perceptions of the game.

Yeah, but there are these stubborn gamers that have been playing since the
early 80's...

I've been toying with the Stat disconnection as well, but I would
go with:
STR = 1, DEX = 3, CON = 1, BODY = 1
INT = 1, EGO = 2, PRE = 1, COM = .5

At this point REC becomes too expensive so I'd drop it's cost
to 1 as well. STUN is probably too expensive as well, but
I can't justify .5 and .75 would just be too fractional.

As for closing loopholes and oddities; Everytime Hero has closed
something, something else has popped open. It's the problem with
a very flexible and comprehensive system.

- -Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:43:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: RE: CHAR: Succubus

On Mon, 10 May 1999, David W. Salmon wrote:

> How about making the "Kiss" with invisible power effects so that the victim
> doesn't realize what's going on until it is too late. If the damage was felt
> when kissed, then I sure as heck would try to back off. This way they just
> keep getting more run down until they just die.

That's an excellent option for either this version, or the more
traditional succubi. Of course, note that one must overcome the
succubus's 20 STR in order to 'back off'.

- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html

"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:51:05 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies

At 09:51 AM 5/10/99 -0500, bobby farris wrote:
>I didn't realize that this would be such a hot bed of discussion :) Thank
you all
>for suggestions. Please don't stop.
>
>Okay, First I refuse to use Independent. I can't believe that anytime
something
>is created people are spending character points on it. Look at it from a real
>world perspective. If everyone is making things Independent where are all the
>points coming from....yes I know it is just a game...I am just trying to
make a
>point.

You dont always have to spend character points to make an independent. In
my campaign the points come from the items used (certain substances
inherently contain character points).

> Once the potions are made they should have NO tie to the creator.
They
>should can be used by ANYONE at ANYTIME. If he wishes to save them fine.
If he
>wants 500 healing potions, as long as he can find the components, fine. If he
>wants to sell them fine.

In Hero, thats what you use Independent and focus for, to make items
wholly separate from the creator.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:54:54 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

>| I'd say all this depends on the value of the items that make a potion up,
>| and how difficult they are to recover. How rare alchemists are, etc, its
>| campaign based. If you are in a typical AD&D world where potions roll down
>| the streets like rain, probably its not worth anything.
>
>I think I was unclear. Is the potion difficult for the alchemist to
>replace, or is it difficult for the person quaffing the potion to replace?

I'd say either way. If the materials and creation of a given potion are
difficult to obtain, then it is difficult for both the alchemist or a
prospective buyer to get another potion.

>| Charges seems valid for this, IF you build it as an indepedant, as most
>| would.
>
>An NPC alchemist would, since points do not matter so much for them. For a
>PC alchemist, things get a little weird. Or a lot weird.

That's why as a GM I allow certain substances, rituals, and time periods to
give character points for making items. Most of them actually give points
only if they are spent personally, but not all. The way I look at it also,
is that a Machine Gun made in our world is independent (it has no
connection to its creator, if someone takes it he loses that item and has
to make a new one (or buy one)). Thus, independent items do not
neccessarily have to come from personal points.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:14:29 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Female Bricks (was CHAMP: muscular men and slick chicks)

Mark Lemming wrote:

> geoff heald wrote:
> >
> > At 01:55 PM 5/8/99 EDT, you wrote:
> > >In a message dated 5/8/99 11:48:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > >bob.greenwade@klock.com writes:
> > >
> > ><< Which brings to mind... how many female bricks can people think of in
> > > comics and animated TV? The ones I can think of offhand include:
> > >
> > > Big Bertha (of the Female Furies)
> > > Ms Marvel
> > > Power Girl
> > > Rogue
> > > She-Hulk
> > > Supergirl
> > > Wonder Girl
> > > Wonder Woman >>
> > >
> > >The leader of gen13
> > >the femal kryptonian from the superman movie
> > >inque from Batman Beyond
> > >American Maid, from the tick
> > >
> >
> > I don't think Inque is really a brick. She's tough and all, but maybe a
> > martial artist would be a better description.
>
> I would say that American Maid is not a brick either.
>
> -Mark

hehehehe, I'd say that tick was the party brick and American Maid is leader
persona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:30:23 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies

> Why not Charges? I am unsure of this one. Maybe someone can help. The
way I have always thought of charges is that the power can be used once in a
certain amount of time...say a day. So if I give this power charges does
that mean that the finished potion has the charges or the creator of the
potion. If the creator of the potion has the charges that means he is
limited to creating a number of potions NO MATTER how many reagents he has.
He could have enough reagents to make
>100 potions, but because he bought the power with 4 charges he can only
make 4 per day. Is this right or wrong? If this is right then I don't want
Charges.

The charges will all be depending on how you use your special effect.
Charges could be: A- 4 doses in 1 bottle, B-1 dose in 4 separate bottles, or
C-the Alchemist can only make 4 doses at a time.

The problem to me is that charges restore after a certain amount of time.
Thus you have created the everfull bottle of wonder; great for food, water,
wine and other such 1 shot things you don't want to run out of.

I personally prefer to not use charges. The alchemist makes how ever many
he has time and energy to make.

> I have already stated my total hatred for Independent. If Independent
is really used for Magic Items and Potions then there never would be any
ever reated.

I never use independent. If my players build something with the independent
lim. I tell them strait-up that they will loose it at some time.

Independent, in my opinion, was designed to show a focus that can be
separated from its owner, like a weapon, or armor, or such. This is why I
choose to use focus as I do.

> I like Trigger, because delayed effect depends to much upon the creator
of the item. As I said, if my alchemist has enough reagents to make 100
potions I want him to be able to make 100 potions. That is like telling a
person with a gun...well I realize your have 30 bullets, and your gun can
carry them, but you can only put 10 in your gun because one of your stats is
two low.

I think trigger is the correct way to go.

> I didn't include Extra Time, because the way I see it once the potion is
drunk it can be used immediately. Of course some could have the Extra Time
limitation showing that the potion takes time to work.

All things like extra time, concentrate, Incantations, gestures would come
into effect when making the potions. When the trigger is activated it
immediately goes off. The extra time is there to say that it takes 1 hour
to make each potion, etc. Not one hour for the potion to work.

Michel Santorineos
ICQ# 22259362

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1999 12:40:34 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies

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* redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) on Mon, 10 May 1999
| Okay, First I refuse to use Independent.

I agree. For a PC of this sort, especially for 'disposable' stuff,
Independent is senseless.

| When I want an Alchemist this is what I want (Note that this might differ
| from what other people want, like I said this is what I want.):

| This is a magical character type that can use almost scientific
| magical formulas to create potions, oils, dust, and whatever. When used
| in a prescribed fashion these will cause a magical effect. He should be
| able to continue to create these "potions" as long as he is able to
| 1)stay awake and 2)find component materials used to make the potions.

Okay, I mentioned this before, but if a weaponsmith does not need to buy
HKA to make a sword, why does a magicsmith need to buy AID to make a
healing potion? This is a philosophical question that you need to answer
for yourself.

| Once the potions are made they should have NO tie to the
| creator. They should can be used by ANYONE at ANYTIME. If he wishes to
| save them fine. If he wants 500 healing potions, as long as he can find
| the components, fine. If he wants to sell them fine.

Universal Focus, plain and simple. UBO has a direct tie to the creator.
Trigger and Delayed Effect have indirect ties.

| I am assuming that each time the Alchemist creates his item he is
| creating ONE dose or use. If the Alchemist wants to create multiple doses
| of a healing potion, for example, then he creates the item multiple
| times. Thus he could create the potion 5 times and put it in a bottle
| saying that it is 5 doses of a Healing Potion.

This looks like Charges to me.

| That said he is what I have revised to. Note that these are the BASE
| limitations. Several others can be added at the players option.

What I would suggest doing is writing up the item, just the item. That is
the power. Once you have that, you go and figure out how an alchemist
would go about creating it. This is where you institute a house rule: say,
SC: Alchemy, at -1 per 10 active points in the item, possibly modified by
the commonality of the item. No character points are actually involved in
the creation of the item, unless a 'permanent' item is being created, in
which case the expenditure comes from the character for whom the item is
made.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:37:48 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

>That's why as a GM I allow certain substances, rituals, and time periods to
give character points for making items. Most of them actually give points
only if they are spent personally, but not all. The way I look at it also,
is that a Machine Gun made in our world is independent (it has no
>connection to its creator, if someone takes it he loses that item and has
>to make a new one (or buy one)). Thus, independent items do not
>neccessarily have to come from personal points.

The problem is that the rules state that because of the -2 limitation, if it
is put into a focus and lost, the creator loses those points. Loosing the
points is the only way that I can see to make such a large limitation
viable. If the player is not worried about losing the points for the
focused independent, he would put independent on everything.

Ironman's armor, assuming you use the focus and not hero id, would now be
bought independent. The Fantastic Four's unstable molecule suits would be
bought independent. Anything the players could think of to get that -2
limitation.

I like the idea of independent, I just don't think if the players are not
going to lose the points for it, it should be that big of a limitation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:46:27 -0400
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com>
Subject: RE: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies

Okay, I dug out my Fantasy Hero binder, which contains Fantasy Hero and both companions. (The covers were pretty much falling apart.)

In the first companion, on page 87, they discuss potions. Here's the common Advantages/Limitations:

Continuing Charges, Do Not Recover (-2)
OAF Potion, Fragile
Independent

(Sometimes there's an activation roll in there too.)

I've been basing my potions (dusts, salves, creams, anything of the sort) on those items solely. I even throw in Gestures (must drink/apply) and Extra Time: Full Phase.
However, these are just to drink the potion or apply the salve.

Perhaps this can be of some help.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Adam Johnson
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (RAT)
ajohnson@clariion.com
Life's a long song... but the tune ends too soon for us all
Jethro Tull, "Life's a Long Song," Living in the Past
- ----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1999 12:56:21 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist

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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Mon, 10 May 1999
| I'd say either way. If the materials and creation of a given potion are
| difficult to obtain, then it is difficult for both the alchemist or a
| prospective buyer to get another potion.

It comes down to the question that, if this were a superhero game, who
would be paying the points for it? In my book, if a character always has a
particular kind of thing, he pays points for it. It then becomes a matter
of determining how difficult it is for him to obtain it. The supplier will
just make it heinously expensive.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:08:21 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request

In a message dated 5/10/99 8:36:06 AM, aregalad@miami.edu writes:

>Anyway, I was wondering if you guys address the INT "problem" at all in
>5th Edition?

The costs of stats in 5th Edition have not changed from 4th Edition, nor hav=
e=20
the formulas for figured characteristics.

=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:13:10 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Superman tecnicolor

Green K: could hurt or kill Superman.
Red K: weird, random transformations; each piece had a different effect on=
Kryptonians.
Gold K: Could permanently remove his powers.
Blue K: A flawed artificial form that only affected Bizarro beings.
White K: destroys plant life
Jewel K: Served as a "psionic amplifier" for Phantom Zone villains.

These are all the types and effects of Kryptonite that I know of.

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 5/8/99 at 10:45 AM Mike Christodoulou wrote:

>At 10:37 AM 5/8/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Sat, 8 May 1999, geoff heald wrote:
>>
>>> Kryptonite came in different colors and had different effects on=
Superman
>>> depending on the color. One was Red, one was Green. I don't know if=
there
>>> was a Yellow.
>>
>>There is a gold kryptonite... I forget what it does.
>
>
>At one time, they had introduced Kryptonite in just about every
>color of the rainbow, and each one had different effects on
>Superman. While I never actually saw this in a comic book, it
>was summarized in some Superman trivia compilation.
>
>I guess DC finally saw this system for what it was -- just plain
>stupid -- and went back to just good ol' green.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
>Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
>(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

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*****************************

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