Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 331
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 7:13 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #331
champ-l-digest Monday, May 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 331
In this issue:
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: Breaking down INT (was My problems... as per your request)
Re: Yul Brynner (was The Seven Deadly Sins, and before that New age elementals)
Re: Alchemist
How much can I lift?
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: Alchemist
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
Re: How much can I lift?
Dhole (absurd)
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Yul Brynner (et al)
Re: How much can I lift?
Re: My problems... as per your request
Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
Re: My problems... as per your request
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:05:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
On 10 May 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> | This is a magical character type that can use almost scientific
> | magical formulas to create potions, oils, dust, and whatever.
>
> Okay, I mentioned this before, but if a weaponsmith does not need to buy
> HKA to make a sword, why does a magicsmith need to buy AID to make a
> healing potion? This is a philosophical question that you need to answer
> for yourself.
On the other hand...a warrior does not need to buy RKA to have, own, and
use a Bow - he just buys the Bow skill (and a bow). A mage /does/ need to
buy RKA to fling magical bolts.
Or, why does the alchemist get to make a healing potion for 'free' when a
mage needs to pay points to be able to cast a healing spell?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:16:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Breaking down INT (was My problems... as per your request)
At 11:35 AM 5/10/1999 -0400, aregalad@miami.edu wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>Although your house rule is interesting, it still doesn't fix MY problem
>with stats. :] Actually, the only stat _I_ have a problem with is INT. It
>is only useful in increments of 5, so how do I encourage my players to buy
>a 14 INT if a 13 is just as good? A house rule I've implemented (and one
>that was suggested by two good net buddies) is having INT figure into SPD.
>The Speed formula in my campaigns is now (DEX+INT)/10.
>
>Anyway, I was wondering if you guys address the INT "problem" at all in
>5th Edition?
It's doubtful, since this is the only real "problem" with INT. However,
I do have a few ideas (some published variants, and some house rules) that
can break apart INT along other lines:
1. While INT Rolls round in favor of the character as the current rules
hold, for INT/5 limits on number of Powers that can be active at one time
and similar things, I don't round.
2. TUM gives an option of making Mental Powers affect INT for a -1/2
Limitation, along with the option of making such Powers use Intelligence
Combat Value (ICV, equal to INT/3). Besides ICV breaks, this also makes
every INT pip count toward defending against such Mental Powers.
3. Then there's the alternate SPD formula that you already use, which I
happen to like (based on the description of INT in HSR4).
4. Mentalists might use INT for initiative on their Mental Powers
(instead of EGO, per the current rules).
5. One rule which I don't use, but which could also be helpful, is to
base initiative on the sum of INT and DEX.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:30:23 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Yul Brynner (was The Seven Deadly Sins, and before that New age elementals)
At 06:58 AM 5/10/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:32 AM 5/10/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>>On Sat, 8 May 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>> Back on topic (and the main reason I kept this on list), I think
it'd be
>>> an interesting exercise to come up with a group of characters (heroes, I
>>> think) based on Yul Brynner movies. One could have the robot gunslinger
>>> (West World/Future World)
>>
>>Actually, the character should probably be a human gunslinger (Magnificent
>>Seven), but he's got a Hunted: there's a robot gunslinger out there that
>>looks just like him. Sort of an 'Evil Twin' disadvantage. (The
>>gunslinger from Westworld, IIRC, was wandering around killing people...not
>>very heroic...)
>
> True, quite true. And the way you have it here does indeed make for an
>interesting subplot. :-]
>
I missed (accidentally deleted) the first part of this conversation, but
(assuming nobody else already mentioned it) I think this is relevent. There
was a comics mini-series (or was it a short-lived series) in the 80's
called Silverblade which featured an old actor who could assume the form
and abilities of any character he'd ever played. He'd been an Errol Flynn
type in his early days, had played monsters in 40's horror movies, an so
on, so he had quite a range of abilities to chose from. That could work
nicely in Champions (with Multiform or Shapeshift & VPP), and could be even
more fun with a real-life actor like Yul Brynner.
Other actors who I think might be interesting to do this sort of thing
with: Errol Flynn, Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant, Rutger Hauer, Harrison Ford,
Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Alec Guiness, Sean Connery, Mark Lenard,
Christopher Lloyd, Kurt Russell, Kenneth Branaugh. Some action favorites
wouldn't work particularly well, though - Clint Eastwood's characters
really don't have that wide a range of abilities.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:49:55 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist
At 11:37 AM 5/10/99 -0500, Mitchel Santorineos wrote:
>>That's why as a GM I allow certain substances, rituals, and time periods to
>give character points for making items. Most of them actually give points
>only if they are spent personally, but not all. The way I look at it also,
>is that a Machine Gun made in our world is independent (it has no
>>connection to its creator, if someone takes it he loses that item and has
>>to make a new one (or buy one)). Thus, independent items do not
>>neccessarily have to come from personal points.
>
>The problem is that the rules state that because of the -2 limitation, if it
>is put into a focus and lost, the creator loses those points. Loosing the
>points is the only way that I can see to make such a large limitation
>viable. If the player is not worried about losing the points for the
>focused independent, he would put independent on everything.
I agree, I just think that many items take the limitation (like every magic
item in any example) that clearly didnt cost the characters any points. I
wonder if ANYONE ever uses it when they really pay points for it.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:57:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: How much can I lift?
Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
Mike,
> Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
I don't have the Champions book handy, so I don't know what the base
lifting capacity is, but 250 is 50*5, which means 2 to the 50th power, which
is my unix "bc" calculator says is 1,125,899,906,842,624.
Have fun.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:12:48 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>> way of Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us&>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
At 09:51 AM 5/10/99 -0500, bobby farris wrote:
>I didn't realize that this would be such a hot bed of discussion :) Thank
you all
>for suggestions. Please don't stop.
>
>Okay, First I refuse to use Independent. I can't believe that anytime
something
>is created people are spending character points on it. Look at it from a real
>world perspective. If everyone is making things Independent where are all the
>points coming from....yes I know it is just a game...I am just trying to
make a
>point.
>
I ran into this problem with a PC alchemist once. I came up with a rather
unusual fix, though it may no longer be relevent since I'm pretty sure this
campaign used 1st ed. Fantasy Hero rules Still, I'll explain what I
remember of my (admittedly dubious) construction.
As I recall, I bought each formula for a potion as an Independent effect,
but without a Focus. In essence, I bought the ability to make the potions
as something separate from the alchemist. Like an enchantment on a place, a
curse, or any other Focus-less Independent, it couldn't easily be destroyed
or taken away, but did have some disadvantages: it could be stolen (copied)
by another alchemist, or it could be destroyed if the alchemist's memory
were to be wiped, his notes destroyed, and so on. I believe the individual
potions were constructed as Charges and/or END in an END Battery.
I believe 4th ed. Hero System & 2nd ed. Fantasy Hero have set precedent for
some other ways to make potions without burning points. I probably wouldn't
use my Focusless Indepedent construction these days, but I do think it had
some logic to it.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
- --- Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> wrote:
> Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons)
- -=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Desmarais wrote:
> --- Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> wrote:
> > Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> > ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
>
> 25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons)
Perfect! The Dhole and I thank you!
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: 10 May 1999 16:32:54 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 10 May 1999
| Or, why does the alchemist get to make a healing potion for 'free' when a
| mage needs to pay points to be able to cast a healing spell?
Because an alchemist makes common equipment. Said equipment has magical
special effects, but it is all still common equipment. Common equipment is
not paid for in heroic games.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:33:39 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
At 01:08 PM 5/10/99 -0700, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>Mike,
>
>> Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
>> ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
>
> I don't have the Champions book handy, so I don't know what the base
>lifting capacity is, but 250 is 50*5, which means 2 to the 50th power, which
>is my unix "bc" calculator says is 1,125,899,906,842,624.
Well, if you insist on going there, perhaps the more interesting
question is not how much you can lift, but
1) Where will you find something that big?
2) What's holding you up when you lift it?
3) How far can you throw it once you've got it?
(Let's ignore the question of whether the object's structure will
hold its own weight when you lift up on a piece of it.)
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:35:09 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist
- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Alchemist
>At 11:37 AM 5/10/99 -0500, Mitchel Santorineos wrote:
>>>That's why as a GM I allow certain substances, rituals, and time periods
to
>>give character points for making items. Most of them actually give points
>>only if they are spent personally, but not all. The way I look at it
also,
>>is that a Machine Gun made in our world is independent (it has no
>>>connection to its creator, if someone takes it he loses that item and has
>>>to make a new one (or buy one)). Thus, independent items do not
>>>neccessarily have to come from personal points.
>>
>>The problem is that the rules state that because of the -2 limitation, if
it
>>is put into a focus and lost, the creator loses those points. Loosing the
>>points is the only way that I can see to make such a large limitation
>>viable. If the player is not worried about losing the points for the
>>focused independent, he would put independent on everything.
>
>I agree, I just think that many items take the limitation (like every magic
>item in any example) that clearly didnt cost the characters any points. I
>wonder if ANYONE ever uses it when they really pay points for it.
I imagine they don't. I've made it pretty clear to my players what to
expect. Independent has a way of making the game very complicated. I think
that the original intent of the limitation was to give a bonus when creating
items that could be used by anyone, any time.
I always thought that what the old focus rules were for, at least until they
started adding Independent to everything.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:43:53 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
>Because an alchemist makes common equipment. Said equipment has magical
special effects, but it is all still common equipment. Common equipment is
not paid for in heroic games.
What if you wanted to make a character, who in his spare time made shields
of such great quality they seemed like magic? I would still make the
character buy the equivalent "spell" ability, even though he doesn't make
truly magic shields.
I think this is a special effect question. You're saying a skilled person
makes potions. I'm saying it requires a skilled person on the verge of
being magical, thus the "spell", to do it. Actually paying for this ability
above and beyond the simple skill of PS: Alchemist.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
- --- Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Desmarais wrote:
>
> > --- Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> wrote:
> > > Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> > > ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
> >
> > 25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons)
>
> Perfect! The Dhole and I thank you!
So, now that you can juggle Phobos (the larger of Mars's two moons), what's
next?
- -=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:48:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
On Mon, 10 May 1999, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> >> Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> >> ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
>
> Well, if you insist on going there, perhaps the more interesting
> question is not how much you can lift, but
> 1) Where will you find something that big?
A planet?
> 2) What's holding you up when you lift it?
I have no idea.
> 3) How far can you throw it once you've got it?
Does it matter?
> (Let's ignore the question of whether the object's structure will
> hold its own weight when you lift up on a piece of it.)
See above.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Desmarais wrote:
> > > > Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity? I
> > > > ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
> > >
> > > 25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons)
> >
> > Perfect! The Dhole and I thank you!
>
> So, now that you can juggle Phobos (the larger of Mars's two moons), what's
> next?
Dunno, I gotta ask the Dhole. I think he wants to eat Phobos.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:57:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
On Mon, 10 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> Dunno, I gotta ask the Dhole. I think he wants to eat Phobos.
Seriously, I'm building a dhole, a Lovecraftian creature that's easily
800-1000 feet long (or longer). Thinkk the sandworms from Dune (that get
to be a kilometer in length) is 250 STR waaaaaaay to much, or two little
or what?
The 'offical' Hero version of Godzilla has a 115 STR. The Dhole in CoC
has a 555 STR (on *average*) while guys like Cthulhu himself as 100 or so
and a normal human has a 10-11 (on average). I'm trying to get a
resonable number for the thing (well, as resonable as one can get at this
scale).
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: 10 May 1999 17:03:49 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
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* Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net> on Mon, 10 May 1999
| What if you wanted to make a character, who in his spare time made shields
| of such great quality they seemed like magic?
It is still "common equipment". Characters who own such shields would not
be required to spend character points to own them.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
- -- Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > Dunno, I gotta ask the Dhole. I think he wants to eat Phobos.
>
> Seriously, I'm building a dhole, a Lovecraftian creature that's easily
> 800-1000 feet long (or longer). Thinkk the sandworms from Dune (that get
> to be a kilometer in length) is 250 STR waaaaaaay to much, or two little
> or what?
1000ft. That's about 305 meters, or about 22 levels of growth. 22 levels of
growth will impart an extra 110 STR. On top of 10-20 "Base" STR that really
sounds like enough to me - it's up above that "I can juggle battleships" range
where my ability to visualize how strong something is begins to fade...
But then again, in my Champions games the strongest PC to ever exist had a STR
of 90, so 120-130 STR is "really, really, really strong" to me.
- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:23:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alchemist Ver 1.1 and My replies
On 10 May 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 10 May 1999
> | Or, why does the alchemist get to make a healing potion for 'free' when a
> | mage needs to pay points to be able to cast a healing spell?
>
> Because an alchemist makes common equipment. Said equipment has magical
> special effects, but it is all still common equipment. Common equipment is
> not paid for in heroic games.
...which is exactly the thing that I am challenging.
Let's say I have a bow and 8 arrows. The bow does 1d6+1 killing damage at
range. It can be taken away from me, and I have to have my hands free to
use it.
Let's say that you have a magical spell that you can cast 8 times. It
does 1d6+1 killing damage at range, and it requires material components
that can be taken away from you, as well as gestures that require your
hands to be free.
Why do I get that ability for free, while you pay 9 points for the
privelege? Doesn't that strike you as a bit unfair? Why aren't spells
counted as 'common equipment'? Where is the line drawn between 'common
equipment' and 'stuff that must be paid for'?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:25:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Desmarais wrote:
> > > Dunno, I gotta ask the Dhole. I think he wants to eat Phobos.
> >
> > Seriously, I'm building a dhole, a Lovecraftian creature that's easily
> > 800-1000 feet long (or longer). Thinkk the sandworms from Dune (that get
> > to be a kilometer in length) is 250 STR waaaaaaay to much, or two little
> > or what?
>
> 1000ft. That's about 305 meters, or about 22 levels of growth. 22 levels of
> growth will impart an extra 110 STR. On top of 10-20 "Base" STR that really
> sounds like enough to me - it's up above that "I can juggle battleships" range
> where my ability to visualize how strong something is begins to fade...
>
> But then again, in my Champions games the strongest PC to ever exist had a STR
> of 90, so 120-130 STR is "really, really, really strong" to me.
It's needs to be stronger than Godzilla (115 STR) and Grond (90 STR). I'm
thinking 250 is a bit too much... so maybe 150 STR. Ypu see, dholes
really do *eat* planets (abet from the inside out) and in the CoC game are
given a damage bonus of "Can crush a battleship". Maybe 30d6 from the 150
STR and some extra dice of HA to represent sheer mass?
Yes, this is an excersize in the immense.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:28:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Dhole (absurd)
BTW: Here is the rough draft for the dhole (a creature of the Dreamlands).
DHOLE
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
250* STR 160 59- 25 teratons (25000 gigatons); 50d6
3 DEX -21 10- OCV: 1 / DCV: 1
150 CON 280 39-
100* BODY 148 29-
3 INT -7 10- PER Roll 10-
35 EGO 50 16- ECV: 3
60 PRE 50 21- PRE Attack: 12d6
0 COM -5 9-
35 PD 1 Total: 70 PD / 35 PDr
30 ED 0 Total: 65 ED / 35 EDr
2 SPD 7 Phases: 6, 12
50 REC -48
300 END 0
260* STUN 0 * Includes modifiers for Growth
Total Characteristics Cost: 615
Movement: Running: 18" / 36"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Tunneling: 10" / 20"
Cost Powers & Skills
Dhole Powers:
107 Immense Size: Growth: 16 Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2): +80 STR, +16 BODY/STUN, -16" KB, +16" Reach,
+10 PER, -10 DCV
16 levels of growth gets me an 800' dhole becuase the dhole is 'only' 30
feet wide. By reconfiguring the width vs height values, I get the right
length.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"10,000 of them...four of us. Those unlucky bastards!"
Andy "the Buffalo" Bartalone
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
>>Other than with game settings where playing them at least mostly
>straight is
>>pretty much the point in the exercise, I rarely use a predone game
>setting.
>>I will occasionally use chunks of material from one when useful, but
>even
>>that's uncommon. That's one reason I was impressed by the New Millenium
>>setting; it's one of the few I've seen I could see using pretty much 'as
>is'
>>albiet with Hero rather than Fuzion.
>
>Ah. And what makes the C:NM setting something you could use straight as
>opposed to C:U or...uh... The CyberPunk 2.0.2.0 setting?
Well, the latter is a non-issue because a 'pure' cyberpunk setting isn't of
much use to me. The advantage to the New Millenium Universe over the old
Champions Universe is that it feels coherent; supers come into existance in
a lot of different ways, but if of a type, the way things work seems
consistent ('mutants' for example, only come from two sources, and therefor
you can talk about what constitutes one and what common traits they're
expected to have intelligently) and things are interwoven in a way that
seems consistent (you don't have the problem of multiple secret
organizations with apparently overlapping bailiwicks with no clear idea how
they interact). The C.U. suffered from the fact it was, in practice,
patched together from a piece of a campaign here, a piece of a campaign
there...and all too often showed it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>>Actually, I never said anything about that. You're confusing me with
>>someone else. What I said was that if you remove the figured
>>characteristics from Constitution, that the other things it does under
>>the standard rules do not make it worth two points per point. If you
>>disagree with that, then respond to it...not a point I never made.
>
>The same argument applies - you see the cost of CON as too high and I do
>not. Take out mention of onbe game mechanic and add in the one about CON
>and it's exactly the same point.
Then defend why 2 points for CON that, in the game system as written with
the addendum I was addressing, does nothing but defend against stunning.
Bringing your house rules into it has nothing to do with my point.
>
>You see a problem where I do not. What's wrong with using a house rule
>your very wn self to fix the problem to you percieve?
Because I shouldn't have to. And even if I did, it would not change the
fact that as written, it's too damn expensive because there are other ways
to produce much the same effect cheaper.
>> I'm not talking about a current cost feature at all. I'm talking
>>about the fix Steve Peterson was suggesting for people who dislike some
>of
>>the stat costs and saying why I thought _that_ was a bad idea, unless
>you
>>changed other things.
>
>Then do not use Steve petersons fix...
And tell him why it's a mistake, which is what I was doing.
>>Labelling them off topic for a discussion about why changing a rule in
>one
>>specific way without changing others, on the other hand, is a simple
>>attempt to keep the discussion to a manageable level.
>
>Was Steve Peterson suggesting a fully thought out and play tested
>optional rule or as he throwing out an idea to explore as a house rule
>and refine as the player went?
He seemed to suggest it was a solution to the STR problem. I was pointing
out it created an entirely different problem.
>>See my point about not having paid attention to what the thread was
>>about?
>
>As far as I can see the point remains the same. I don't see a problem
>with the game as written. Someone (you? some one else?) doesn't like that
>element. So design a house rule to fix it. But you say that house rules
>are irrelevant- So what exactly do you want again?
I want people to realize that fixing one thing by breaking something else
isn't a useful process. And not to bring third elements in that have
nothing to do with my point.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>>You see a problem where I do not. What's wrong with using a house rule
>>your very wn self to fix the problem to you percieve?
>
>The usual reason: Wayne think he's right. I happen to agree with him. :)
>Although, I'd be much happier if the decoupling of Figured Characteristics
>had been made official and this was all we had to argue about!
>
Actually, what irritated me was that it didn't really respond to my point,
which was, if you get rid of the figured characteristics without doing
anything else to it (perhaps I didn't state the latter, but then, I didn't
state adding any of ten million possible house rules either) it was too
expensive at 2 per point.
Personally, I don't like the idea of decoupling figureds, but that wasn't
what I was arguing per se.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:08:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: arcus@webtv.net (chrisopher spoor)
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
<<Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity?
I ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons) >>
How does this compare to the weight of the earth? How many can he
juggle? :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:08:21 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
> Then defend why 2 points for CON that, in the game system as written with
> the addendum I was addressing, does nothing but defend against stunning.
> Bringing your house rules into it has nothing to do with my point.
On the other hand, if it is desired that this fix be discussed, suggesting
house rules as fixes to the problems would not be inappropriate. If CON
rolls and mental attacks based on CON are as common as EGO rolls and regular
mental attacks, is it still overpriced at that point? In that case, for that
game, maybe EGO also has to be reduced in cost...
Hmm, another fix. Ah, well. This could probably go on for a while.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:08:28 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yul Brynner (et al)
At 03:30 PM 5/10/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>Other actors who I think might be interesting to do this sort of thing
>with: Errol Flynn, Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant, Rutger Hauer, Harrison Ford,
>Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Alec Guiness, Sean Connery, Mark Lenard,
>Christopher Lloyd, Kurt Russell, Kenneth Branaugh. Some action favorites
>wouldn't work particularly well, though - Clint Eastwood's characters
>really don't have that wide a range of abilities.
Possibilities I can think of offhand (and each probably has more movies
that would be good source material that I just don't know of):
Rutger Hauer - Blade Runner, Ladyhawke, Blind Fury
Sean Connery - early James Bond movies, Indiana Jones & the Last
Crusade, Highlander, ffolkes
Christopher Lloyd - Back to the Future, Star Trek II, Deadly Games [TV
series], My Favorite Martian
I'm not sure about the others you listed, though with Kurt Russell you'd
have not only his more recent action flicks, but some earlier Disney movies
too (like The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes).
Don't forget Sylvester Stallone. Besides the easy ones from Rocky,
Rambo, and Judge Dredd, there's Cliffhanger, along with Stop! or My Mom
Will Shoot (for this last one, he gets a Follower with No Conscious Control).
With Avery Books, you get at least Hawk (from the same-titled series as
well as Spencer: For Hire) and Captain Sisko (from DS9) to start.
Or how about the late Roddy McDowall? There you get Planet of the Apes
(three different characters if you count the TV series), his guest shots on
Fantasy Island (where he played Mephistopheles), another TV series called
(I think) Fantastic Journey, and probably at least one or two others from
his lengthy and illustrious career.
I'd like to see if some one could get enough material for a tribute team
for William Daniels, which would of course include KITT.
I've also had the concept of having a group of superpowered NPCs (not
sure whether heroes or villains -- probably just over-obsessed fans) based
on Elvis Presley songs. I was thinking of Jailhouse Rock (martial artist),
Teddy Bear (brick with a big squeeze of a hug), All Shook Up (vibration
powers), Way Down (tunneler), and The Great Pretender (shapeshifter) to
start.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:40:33 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: How much can I lift?
At 06:08 PM 5/10/99 -0400, chrisopher spoor wrote:
><<Okay.... if a character has a 250 STR, what is there lifting capacity?
>I ground t a hault somewhere around 800 Gigatons (what's after that?).
>
>25 metric teratons (or, 25000 metric gigatons) >>
>
>How does this compare to the weight of the earth? How many can he
>juggle? :)
>
According to the 1999 World Almanac, the Earth weighs about
6,590,000,000,000,000,000,000 short tons, which is
5,977,130,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons; It's easier just to say about 6
zettatons.
In the days before I forgot how to do logs, I once calculated how much STR
would be required to lift that mass - I think about 400 STR. Consequently,
somewhere I have a write-up of the Pre-Crisis Superman with STR in that area.
- - Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:05:51 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>Actually, what irritated me was that it didn't really respond to my
point,
>which was, if you get rid of the figured characteristics without doing
>anything else to it (perhaps I didn't state the latter, but then, I
didn't
>state adding any of ten million possible house rules either) it was too
>expensive at 2 per point.
Ah. Thank you for the clairification.
>Personally, I don't like the idea of decoupling figureds, but that
>wasn't what I was arguing per se.
I don't either.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:04:36 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Inquest Gamer: Champions is Dead?
>Well, the latter is a non-issue because a 'pure' cyberpunk setting
>isn't of much use to me.
Ah. is this a function of the types of games you play? if you were to GM
a game of 'pure' cyberpunk whtsystem would ou use?
> The advantage to the New Millenium Universe over the old
>Champions Universe is that it feels coherent;
Okay, noted. Thank you.
> supers come into existance in
>a lot of different ways, but if of a type, the way things work seems
>consistent ('mutants' for example, only come from two sources, and
>thereforyou can talk about what constitutes one and what common traits
>they're expected to have intelligently)
And this isn't so for C:U?
> and things are interwoven in a way that
>seems consistent (you don't have the problem of multiple secret
>organizations with apparently overlapping bailiwicks with no clear
>idea how they interact).
That was a pretty serious problem I agree.
> The C.U. suffered from the fact it was, in practice,
>patched together from a piece of a campaign here, a piece of a
>campaign there...and all too often showed it.
Okay. I never used the C:U mysef exept as another source of ideas to
bporrow for my own homebuilt setting, And since I know what mutants are
and etc, for the purposes of my setting I tend to edit out anything that
doesn't agree subconsciously...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:51:45 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: My problems... as per your request
>Then defend why 2 points for CON that, in the game system as written
with
>the addendum I was addressing, does nothing but defend against stunning.
>Bringing your house rules into it has nothing to do with my point.
It doesn't just defend agfainst tunning though. CON is a measure of the
robustness and stability of the PC's physiology. Using CON in this way is
not invalid simply because it's not mentioned directly in the rulebook.
So you're saying that if you count in Figured Stats, then STR costs too
little, while if you *don't* count the figured stats, then CON costs too
much?
Huh? (Jeez, you just can't please some people) The way I use CON it's
balanced at 2 points per levelsinmply because it does have secondary
effects that are useful as well as being a measure of something that's
vital to PC's but a little hard to define rigourously in RL terms...
>>You see a problem where I do not. What's wrong with using a house rule
>>your very wn self to fix the problem to you percieve?
>
>Because I shouldn't have to.
Again we get to the question of whose opinion weighs more.
> And even if I did, it would not change the
>fact that as written, it's too damn expensive because there are other
>ways to produce much the same effect cheaper.
The same gross effect perhaps, but not that would measure and imply the
same things about the PC.
>>Then do not use Steve Petersons fix...
>
>And tell him why it's a mistake, which is what I was doing.
A mistake *for you*.
>>Was Steve Peterson suggesting a fully thought out and play tested
>>optional rule or as he throwing out an idea to explore as a house rule
>>and refine as the player went?
>
>He seemed to suggest it was a solution to the STR problem. I was
>pointing out it created an entirely different problem.
Then what's your solution to the STR problem?
>I want people to realize that fixing one thing by breaking something
else
>isn't a useful process. And not to bring third elements in that have
>nothing to do with my point.
I actually have always been partial to the color blue.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #331
*****************************
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:56 PM