Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 348
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 10:02 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #348
champ-l-digest Tuesday, May 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 348
In this issue:
Re: Re: The Hero system
Re: Fifth Edition
Re: Re: The Hero system
Re: Fifth Edition
Re: Asian Elements (was Elements)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: Asian Elements (was Elements)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: NCM Move By/Through
Re: NCM Move By/Through
RE: mind link = encrypted comunications ?
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
RE: <FHList> Spell power levels
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: Magic Systems (Was Re: The Hero system)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:17:56 -0400
From: "David Utter" <neo@prolaunch.com>
Subject: Re: Re: The Hero system
- ---- Begin Original Message ----
Well, Horror Hero didn't come out too badly IMO; and one of the projects
I have burning in the back of my mind is Saturday Morning Hero... :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
Thank you. Nice to see the old book mentioned.
David Utter
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:20:59 -0400
From: "David Utter" <neo@prolaunch.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition
- ---- Begin Original Message ----
For those of you keeping score at home, I thought you'd like to know
that, after over a year of work, I've finally turned in the completed 5th
Edition HERO System manuscript to Hero Games as of today. Time for editing
and layout....
Steve Long
And on the seventh day, Steve rested :)
Congratulations.
David Utter
private replies-to monograph@hotmail.com please
- ---- End Original Message ----
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:41:16 -0400
From: "David Utter" <neo@prolaunch.com>
Subject: Re: Re: The Hero system
- ---- Begin Original Message ----
>What is it about CoC that works better than Hero-CoC might?
The base insanity rules. They tried to work them out for Horror Hero, with
limited success, but they are so simple and elegant in Call of Cthulhu and
the game just works together well for that.
Complete agreement here. Our original recommendation that insanity is better roleplayed than numerically represented gave us the most satisfying results during gameplay.
David Utter
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:19:08 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition
> (In case it wasn't very clear before: I hate C.L.O.W.N. to the Nth
>degree. I think they were one of the worst ever ideas Hero ever
published. I
>don't use them, I won't use them. And if I never see them again, it will
be too
>soon!)
>
> Sponsored by the commitee to change Genocide's crusade against
>mutants to a crusade against C.L.O.W.N. (Though I am betting most heroes
would be
>sympathetic to Genocide if that ever happened...)
Actually I like C.L.O.W.N. they're a neat idea for injecting humor into
a game that can get sorta grim, especially if the players like X-Men
comics fomr the 80's and 90's...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:35:44 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Asian Elements (was Elements)
Donald Tsang wrote:
> >> I'm working on entities based on the Asian Elements of Water,
> >> Fire, Air, Metal, and Wood.
>
What happened to VOID?....
>
> Is everyone sure these are "Asian", or just Japanese? It sems ludicrous
> that a country with 1/3th of the history and 1/10th of the land &
> population of a region (even when it had been at the height of its
> expansionist policy) is the default standard for culture.
>
> If you want "Asian", you need to mix Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese,
> Malaysian, Philipino, Thai, etc etc. Plus India, if you consider that Asian.
> And (okay, maybe I'm biased) that list should start with the biggest
> and oldest of those.
>
> Otherwise, please specify that you want Japanese.
>
>
> >> I need bodily correspondences for the concept to work, but I'm
> >> having trouble...
> >>
> >> Water- Chi
> >
> >AFAIK, this doesn't really work. Chi is not water. it is inner energy.
> >Feng Shui can redirect Chi, making it almost an Earth based power.
>
> Worse, "chi" is literally "breath"/air/gas. Also known as "breath control"
> in non-Chinese parlance (such as AD&D's Oriental Adventures, as I recall).
>
> You might want to look up some stuff about Chinese herbal medicine; many
> substances are said to be "cold" or "hot", corresponding roughly (?) to
> water and fire...
>
> I'm not sure about "ki"; it may or not be identical to "chi".
correspondence between breath and spirit...
>
> >>[...]
> >Nope. It's Phoneix, Kirin, Dragon, Turtle and Tiger.
> >
> >I *think* it's a blue turtle, white tiger, red phoneix, gold kirin and
> >yellow dragon. I do know that the tiger is white.
>
> Again, in Chinese or Japanese culture?
>
Their may be quite a bit of overlap atleast originally...
>
> Donald
If you can shed some differentiation, please help.
Though perhaps pointing out that Asian isnt the best generalization.
Lance
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:39:52 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Not my thing. I don't like that style. It smacks of maliciously picking on the
PCs. C.L.O.W.N., to me, is a complete waste of time. Because the "joke" is not funny
to the players. It is a "joke" that only the GM gets. Which, to me, is pointless to
have in a group setting. It does not entertain the players. It causes them to become
angry and indignant. Which can actually hurt the vital trust necessary in a game
group.
"Stephen B. Mann" wrote:
> Hey! I *like* C.L.O.W.N.! I've only ever used them once, but they
> were a blast!
> The characters: a Wolverine-clone, a Mr. Fantastic-clone, a Ghost
> Rider-clone, and an NPC mage.
> The situtation: the PCs are guarding an auction. CLOWN wants one of
> the items. Snapshot is sitting in the front row pretending to be a news
> photog, with Marbles, Toe-Tapper and Dot as backup. Tag is waiting
> outside, and Buford is in Tee-Hee a couple of blocks away.
> Dot starts the attack with a Flash, blinding the PCs. CLOWN starts
> for the door with their prize. Mr Fantastic and Ghost Rider slip and
> fall on Marbles' marbles, and Wolverine gets whacked by Toe-Tapper's
> cane and starts dancing uncontrollably. The mage falls on the marbles
> and knocks himself out.
> Mr Fantastic and Ghost Rider finally make it to the door just ahead
> of CLOWN. Mr Fantastic stretches himself to block the door, Ghost Rider
> stands behind him (outside the door) and braces him. Marbles calmly
> walks up to them, smiles at Mr Fantastic, reaches around him, gently
> taps Ghost Rider and yells "TAG YOU'RE IT!", then steps back.
> Tag pops up from where he's been hiding, and whallops Ghost Rider
> in the back. Ghost Rider slams into Mr Fantastic, Fantastic stretches
> (still trying to block the door), slams into the opposite wall, and then
> rebounds back into Ghost Rider. Both are now unconscious, Fantastic
> lying stretched out like a worn rubber band atop Ghost Rider.
> Fantastic's head is perched precariously on the seat of a nearby
> motorcycle.
> Back inside, Wolverine is still dance, and becoming more and more
> berserk as Toe-Tapper keeps whacking him with that cane. I'll also note
> that the *player* is becoming incredibly frustrated. Wolverine can't hit
> Toe-Tapper, and Toe-Tapper is dancing circles around Wolverine.
> Toe-Tapper finally runs out to make his getaway.
> Once Wolverine stops dancing, he runs (screaming) after Toe-Tapper.
> Reaching the outside (stomping on the bodies of his unconscious team
> mates), he sees CLOWN making their getaway in Tee-Hee. Howling in
> frustration, he jumps up on the motorcycle seat (flattening Mr
> Fantastic's head) and leaps for Tee-Hee.
> Landing on the roof, he punches his claws through the roof and
> starts slashing his way in. Tag keeps punching his claws back out of the
> roof, further enraging Wolverine (and the player). Then...Tee-Hee runs
> up the side of a tall building to shake Wolverine loose. Wolverine tries
> to hold on, but Tag punches him loose, 15 stories off the ground.
> Not wanting to kill the berserk hero, Snapshot takes his picture,
> transforming him into a photograph. The next thing Wolverine knows, he's
> standing knee-deep in developing fluid, with all the members of CLOWN
> standing around him. CLOWN figures on calming Wolverine down,
> congratulating him on his attempt to stop them, and treating him to
> dinner. Wolverine, still berserk, screams and leaps. April Foolmaker
> mind controls him into unconsciousness.
>
> A couple of hours later, a nondescript van pulls into Times Square
> and pauses at an intersection. The back doors open and a figure drops
> out before the van speeds away. Left behind is an unconscious Wolverine;
> he's wearing a frilly calico sundress and glass slippers, a lacy bonnet
> with a blonde wig, rouge, lipstick, mascara, a corset and padded bra,
> and several yards of super-adhesive Red Tape (wrapped especially tightly
> around all his hairy parts). Overlaying all this is a sign hung around
> Wolverine's neck that reads: "SORE LOSER"
> The PCs get a call from the cops. It seems that when Wolverine woke
> up, he was still berserk, and the cops didn't wanna unwrap him from the
> Red Tape. So the PCs had to go down to the police station, subdue a
> berserk Wolverine (the player kept flubbing his EGO rolls), and pull the
> really sticky Red Tape off his hairy parts (and Wolverine is hairy all
> over)! They had to do all this without trashing the police station, and
> with the cops laughing their asses off outside the room!
>
> Eventually Wolverine calmed down to where he only growled loudly
> when somebody mentioned CLOWN, and he only got slighly hysterical when
> he smelled developing fluid....
>
> --
>
> Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
> SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:42:16 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Asian Elements (was Elements)
"Dr. Nuncheon" wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> > I'm working on entities based on the Asian Elements of Water,
> > Fire, Air, Metal, and Wood.
>
> Hmm...the Chinese elements that I've seen used are Water, Fire, Earth,
> Metal, & Wood. Japanese uses Earth/Air/Fire/Water/Void (at least
> according to Musashi's _Book of Five Rings_.
Thanks, I knew void was in there how about a sci based set I know I'm too
late but ;)
[solid/gas/liquid/energy/space/time]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:47:37 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
> C.L.O.W.N., to me, is a complete waste of time. Because the "joke" is not
funny
> to the players. It is a "joke" that only the GM gets. Which, to me, is
pointless to
> have in a group setting. It does not entertain the players. It causes them
to become
> angry and indignant.
Depends on the group.
>Which can actually hurt the vital trust necessary in a game group.
Certainly, if your group is not of a mindset to appreciate the change of
pace.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:58:20 GMT
From: mhoram@relia.net (Curtis A Gibson)
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
On Mon, 17 May 1999 22:25:53 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
>The problem with CLOWN is only the GM thinks everything is funny. =
Myself,
>I'd hate to be made an idiot of in a game. Especially considering how
>CLOWN seems virtually untouchable in many ways. I mean, where's the fun
>in that?=20
I generally don't use clown, but the best adventure I ever did with
them was with a hero that 'stooped' to thier level. After having one
of those riducluling cartoons that clown makes made about her, she got
upset (really upset) and decided the only way to beat them was to beat
them at thier own game. She had ' ridicule clown' cartoon done, and
aired, infiltrated thier base and left rude notes all over, that sort
of thing. That worked sort of well.
The best use I can see for clown- have the funny stuff happen to NPCs
(and let the players enjoy the escapades because it happens to someone
else) and then the only time they show up themselves with the heroes
turns out to be something big, where clown is an ally. That way the
PCs don't become fools, and the humor in clown can be used. In my
crurrent campaign (which has run almost 13 years) they have appeared
twice.
- -Mhoram=20
"I have great faith in fools--
'self-confidence', my friends call it." --Edgar Allen Poe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:43:55 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <backflash@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
"J. Alan Easley" wrote:
> Certainly, if your group is not of a mindset to appreciate the change of
> pace.
>
> Alan
There is a change of pace, then there is just being mean to the players and
their characters. C.L.O.W.N. I view in the latter sense. I see them as an
instrument of a GM's pettiness and selfishness.
I have done alot of humor in my campaigns over the years as a break from the
usual seriousness. All of it was geared for the enjoyment of the whole group,
not just myself.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:13:11 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: NCM Move By/Through
>I assume you mean the _optional_ velocity DCV table? This would help
>the guy moving at high speed to have a better DCV, but it doesn't make
>things uneven. It has no effect on the DCV of the target. Not unless
your
>using a house varient of an optional rule.
Uh, I would use that rule based on the relative velocity of the two
objects, especially If I wanted it to defeat game ending NCM-Move-bys.
>>Oh, no, no, no. High speed running almost demands a turn mode. Other
>>wise the character would have ankles, knees and hips as powerful as the
>>strongest bricks and then more.
>
>While an individual GM might require this, neither the game nor system
>do!! These are comic book Superheroes we are writing about not reality!
>:-)
Oh! OH!!!! You're right. But Turn mode for NCM movement just seems to
make sense to me unless the FX are weird. Wally West as the flash is a
mortal being with speed powers, while Barry Allen was an energy being
with a delusion. So I'd as Wally's player to take turn mode on NCM while
I wouildn't of Barry's (Assuming I let such a character into the game.)
>For the record though, I'm one of the GM's who probably would reqire
>it, as I like things a little more "real-world."
It sets up rules for the PC to operate under that ask the Player to think
things through. IMHO.
>Keep in mind that in my original note, I was simply pointing out that
high
>speeds for flight and running _can_ have an impact in combat. That was
all
>I was trying to do.
>
>~ Mike
Oh. Well yes, of course they can. if nothing else a character with high
movement can escape battles...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:08:47 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: NCM Move By/Through
>This is exactly how you _should_ play a Move Through, Brick or not!!
D'OH!!! I knew I should have read the rules more closely!
>On a Move By though, the attacking character is only supposed to take
>1/3 damage ... whether or not there is knockback. At these velocities
>that can still be a fair amount of damage though. :-)
yup-yup.
>At the same time, it would be pretty easy for a person to design a
>character to take advantage of these things ... all within the framework
of the
>rules.
Sure, sure. Munchkins can always abuse a system. If you make the system
fool proof, some one will just turn out a better fool.
This is why a GM with an extremely coherent idea for how the Campaign
looks and runs, and consistent rules, fairly but firmly applied to all
works a little better.
This is the function for a "jeramie-test" or house rule limits on
firepower, defenses and the effects of powers.
For the Omega Squad Campaign I was aiming at a 75%+ of achieving the
desired effect on a normal, and a 50% chance of achieving the desired
effect on a PC. This is for powers other than direct combat stuff.
This narrowed down the range of stats to a manageable level, and gave us
a broad bench mark to measure the effects of a new character against.
And if a Character wouldn't work within these limitations I wouldn't
hesitate to say "Sorry, please try that again."
>Understand that I am simply presenting what is in the rules, the way
>it is in the rules ... not variations that specific GM's would use in
>specific situations. I can't argue against those with your, unless what
you
>want to argue the merits of a specific house ruling. From what you
wrote, you
>and I probably would have similar house rulings ... but that does not
change
>what is in the book.
>
>~ Mike
I am under no obligation to do what the book says if it suits me, my
players and my campaign to do something different.
OTOH many things I instinctively just whomp up a house rule on are in the
HSR. My bad. Read the Rules thoroughly. Then hack.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:45:23 -0700
From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: mind link = encrypted comunications ?
Dark Champions has an example of what you are trying to do. I don't have my
book with me but there is an example of a throat mike which uses Mind Link
as it's base power. Anyone got a copy handy ? I may be able to get it a bit
later and post the write-up.
Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On
Behalf Of Curt Hicks
Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 11:18 AM
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: mind link = encrypted comunications ?
I'm sort of going round with my GM on the following:
I want to build ''walkie talkie' devices which allow the users to
communicate with each other over any distance using mind link as the
base power.
Mind link clearly states that line of sight is required to establish
the link.
Does this mean that the devices must also have the mind scan power
in order to allow the users to contact each other ?
The Ultimate Mentalist says that mind link is commonly used for encrypted
radio communications, as well as for actual 'mental' powers.
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:33:21 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> Though I have no law enforcement experience, I'll go through how I
> would've handled things -- or, more specifically, how I would've handled
> things differently (where I don't respond to something, I would've done it
> the same, or at least close enough).
>
> >Officers ... entered through the hole in the cupola
>
> I don't think real officers would have entered without a warrant unless
> they were in "hot pursuit" of a suspect, or had reason to believe that
> someone was in immediate danger.
I believe that evidence of a break-in gives police the right, indeed the
duty, to enter the premises to determine if the burglars are still inside
and to check on the safety of occupants. Moreover, in my mind, there was
adequate reason to fear that there might be wounded in need of immediate
medical attention.
>
> >That is about what I think the police would have by early morning, when
> >Mr. Smith will start asking to be released. He has no ties to the
> >District of Columbia and is quite clear that he intends to leave the
> >jurisdiction within a day. I know what I think the police would do, but
> >ask where you think they would go from here?
>
> This is a hard call. Offhand, I'd call it a dead-end case, unless some
> additional evidence shows up.
Actually, it doesn't look like a dead-end at all to me. With daylight,
the forensic teams can check for evidence of a car chase: tire tracks,
broken glass and/or metal. Detectives will canvass the neighborhood, and
go over the house with a microscope. There will be time to run down the
truck and car used by JD #1 through #4. They can see what attorney that
JD#3 and #4 call -- perhaps he is a mob lawyer. It still takes time to
run fingerprints and suchlike.
My concern was that, if the police released Mr. Smith, he would have
been in New Jersey before there was a chance to sort evidence. I felt
that this would justify holding Mr. Smith for the period allowed (I used
72 hours -- I believe it varies by jurisdiction) while more evidence was
gathered. In fact, the police "lost" the paperwork on where he was held
so that his attorney couldn't find him for a while.
One point in dispute is whether it is reasonable for the police to
suspect a connection between the two incidents, which were five blocks
and ten to fifteen minutes apart.
> With the damage to Smith's car, they may
> have the right to impound the car as material evidence in an investigation
I think this goes without question. IMO, the insurance company will not
pay on a claim like this until the police clear Mr. Smith of any
wrongdoing that might void the policy.
A second point in dispute is whether it is reasonable (Mr. Smith's having
failed his 8- acting roll) for the police to suspect that he knows more
than he is telling, and to further suspect that Mr. Smith is not being
forthcoming because he may have been involved in something shady.
jayphailey@juno.com wrote:
> The Cops from our Vista City campaign (heroic, PC police deal with odd
> unusual, nmad science/supernatural threats) would dredge the canal for
> the truck (too much information there.)
The truck was recovered from the canal at 4AM, containing two corpses,
firearms and surveillance paraphernalia. Registration is in the name of
William H. Shaw, but neither corpse had identification.
Jay then followed up with a number of good suggestions for general
investigation, which mostly confirmed my thoughts about where the police
would head. In case anyone is interested, I provide the answers.
> Run a paper tail on the house.
> Who owns it? For how long? How was it paid for etc? Ask the Insurance
> Company nicely. The insurance company doesn't *have* to give out any
> information to the police, but may not know this or may elect to share
> information of their own free will.
Insurance policies are subject to a subpoena duces tecum, and insurance
companies are licensed by the state, so they are inclined to cooperate
anyway unless the request is overbroad. The house is owned by Eastern
Potomac Real Estate Investors, Inc., which is owned by a Potomac Real
Estate Partners, LP, whose general partner is Washington & Richmond Real
Estate Investors, NA and whose principal limited partner is DelMarVa
REIT, Inc., a closely-held corporation that is not required to register
with the SEC. The house is insured as a rental property with the Lee &
Longstreet Insurance company, a small firm in Falls Church, Virginia.
> Has the professor ever filed insurance claims before?
Only minor claims that don't look unusual.
> Priority ONE identify those bodies!
There had been some attempts to obliterate fingerprints with acid, but
these were, as usual, not very successful. The corpses were identified
by the FBI as former S/Sgt Erwin Gehman, 49, and former Spec/8 (Ordnance)
Paul Muse, 50. both Army, both Veterans from the Vietnam Era, and both
the recipients of General Discharges in 1972.
JD#3 was identified by fingerprints as former Spec/4 Alex Laudenslager,
48, a Master Sharpshooter with Army Special Forces in Vietnam.
JD#4 was identified by fingerprints as David W. Williams, 31, formerly a
small-arms instructor for the USMC.
> Have a
> forensic team go over the house with a fine tooth comb.
The house is virtually clean of fingerprints and DNA. If someone was
living here, either they weren't living here very long, or that person
is careful to the point of paranoia. A single usable fingerprint was
found on a glass in the dishwasher, belonging to Lipheng Han, a Hmong
immigrant.
> Get complete ballistics and forensics data from
> the bullets stillmin the car.
They correspond to weapons found in the truck. Pieces of broken glass
and metal were found on various streets near the house that correspond to
the type and color used in the car. The car was recently cleaned and is
pretty free of identifiable fingerprints other than Mr. Smith's.
- --
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:07:39 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: <FHList> Spell power levels
Hi,
I'm currently running a FH campaign that uses a VPP system for magic. I
think it does a good job of limiting the raw power a mage has but increases
his versatility. I have 1 full-on mage, 2 magic specialists and a non-magic
guy. What you soon find out is that with high versatility and
low-to-moderate power, the spell casters end up using the right tool for the
job rather than the same big hammer for everything. The warlock [see full-on
mage above] has a pool of about 35pts. and 6 different spheres. He almost
never uses a straight-up EB or RKA in a scrap.
However, I have limited access to certain powers. I insist on images instead
of invisibility and I don't allow straight armour or force fields with
magic, it just makes the mages too untouchable.
Since this is the first time I'm using the VPP model, I've kept a very close
eye on the imbalance issue and have tweaked the magic system a couple of
times during the campaign.
With the VPP model, you don't need to worry about artificial limits like
that INT/5 stuff. The pool is the pool and it's as big as it is.
Also, the VPP model can be a lot of extra work if you make up all your own
spells. The extra versatility begs a much larger grimoire. Lucky for me, the
guy playing the warlock is good at building spells, so I rarely need to make
any changes too them.
Later
BRI
] Hello everyone
] As a longtime fan of FH who has never actually had a chance to
] play the game, I have been pondering lately on the effect of power
] levels on a game as the prospect of finally 'breaking my duck'
] looms.
] As I have never seen what effect it has in a gmae situaition, would
] anyone care to share experiences of using active point limits on
] spells or running/playing in different games where the average spell
] active points have been significantly different?
] My current concern at the moment is that it would be very easy for
] wizards to dominate a game. I base this on some of the spells in
] the Fh book (and companions) which have active point costs of 30 -
] 40 (and more occasionally), but with limitations could conceivably
] be within the range of starting PCs. Although I haven't found many
] specific examples, I guess there would be nothing stopping
] someone buying an energy blast or force field with 40 points
] either? If so, I can't see many fighters standing up to an 8D6 EB or
] two, or being able to make much headway through a 20 pt
] forcefield......I suppose this would mirror an Ars Magica type of
] appraoch but I wouldn't like someone playing a non wizard to feel
] undervalued.
] One answer would obviously be to build teh PCs on a low point toal
] but this would still hit non-wizards, and besides that, as there ar
] elikely to be only 2 players and I am aiming for a reasonably high
] fantasy game, I would like the PCs to be pretty competent and
] capable of taking on a variety of challenges.
] SO, would it be worth limiting some spells? Is this perceived
] imbalance not a problem in games?
] My other thought was to contemplate allowing spells to be put into
] multipowers. Although the FH book strongly suggests this
] shouldn't be done, I have found many examples on teh net of GMs
] who use VPPs and the like for magic systems in games. Anyone
] have any comments on this? My thinking for this one would be that
] the cost break you would get for the spells would allow wizards to
] have a much widre choice of spells as they would be relatively
] cheap to add. BUT obvioulsy the questiuon I raise above would still
] be a major concern (although it does occur to me that in some
] respects having spells within a multipower would be self limiting to
] a certain extent in that in any one phase only the points in teh
] reserve could be spent whereas having all spells separate would
] allow wizards to have potentially more effects (END permitting)
] simulataneously (if I remember something about INT/5 spells active
] at any one time correctly)).
] Sorry that's a bit long winded. Any suggestions, advice or
] comments gratefully received.
]
] Cheers
] MCC
] Malcolm Coull
] m.coull@mluri.sari.ac.uk
] <FHList> <FHList> <FHList> <FHList> <FHList> <FHList> <FHList>
] The Hero Fantasy mailing list is hosted by fhlist-owner@planetx.org.
] For subscription changes send email to fhlist-request@planetx.org
] with a message body of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe". General
] information can be obtained with a message body of "info".
] Mail to the list itself is addressed to fhlist@planetx.org.
] See http://www.planetx.org/fhlist-archive for old messages
]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:25:23 -0400
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
happyelf wrote:
> ok- question- did the players have fun, or was it more of a
> 'hee hee, i'm so funney' job?
Oh yes, we all had fun. Once Wolverine's player stopped
hypervenilating, even he chuckled once or twice. :)
- --
Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:33:03 -0400
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Darrin Kelley wrote:
> Not my thing. I don't like that style. It smacks of maliciously picking on the
> PCs. C.L.O.W.N., to me, is a complete waste of time. Because the "joke" is not funny
> to the players. It is a "joke" that only the GM gets. Which, to me, is pointless to
> have in a group setting. It does not entertain the players. It causes them to become
> angry and indignant. Which can actually hurt the vital trust necessary in a game
> group.
Fortunately, it's never worked out that way with the two groups
I've CLOWNed. On both occasions, the players were frustrated, but
appreciated the ridiculousness of the situation. The auction PCs were
greatly satisfied by the notion of tracking CLOWN down and teaching them
the errors of their ways ("...he who laughs last..."). Even Wolverine's
player chuckled once or twice once he stopped hypervenilating.
I used CLOWN with a different group of players; the transmogrifier
ray gun scenario. We laughed so hard we had problems rolling the dice...
- --
Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:33:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
At 11:43 PM 5/17/1999 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
> There is a change of pace, then there is just being mean to the
players and
>their characters. C.L.O.W.N. I view in the latter sense. I see them as an
>instrument of a GM's pettiness and selfishness.
>
> I have done alot of humor in my campaigns over the years as a break
from the
>usual seriousness. All of it was geared for the enjoyment of the whole group,
>not just myself.
C.L.O.W.N. doesn't *have* to be used that way. One of the Justifiers
scenarios (from my sadly cancelled campaign) had Ms Steele defending Merry
Andrew for a murder he didn't commit, with other C.L.O.W.N. members popping
up here and there as witnesses, audience members, and such for gags drawn
from sources ranging from vaudeville to the Zucker brothers. It's a
scenario that could happen with no other group of NPCs (at least, no other
group in the Champions Universe).
I've dispensed with the pranks (not altogether; I keep it as a
background element) and explored how C.L.O.W.N. deals with a situation. I
have a hard time seeing pettiness and selfishness in that.
The key is that the players must share the style of humor in use. There
are plenty of players (and GMs) who don't care for the type of humor that
I've injected into the Squirrel King, and that's OK. I don't go to see
motion picture comedies myself, because I don't care for the type of humor
that prevails in most of them (sex jokes, fatulence, and general meanness).
It's just a matter of taste, and of tailoring the scenario to the
audience.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:59:57 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Magic Systems (Was Re: The Hero system)
At 09:07 PM 5/17/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>
>
>Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>> At 12:39 AM 5/15/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>> >
[snip]
>> >Every mage... in every fantasy and every one in the real world who ever
>> claimed to
>> >be mages, the mage emphasizes the mental and the spiritual aspect of
what is
>> >done... DND turned it into the ritual does the
>> >magic and you just cant remember how you did it that is so gauche and so
>> wrong
>> >
>>
>> I think you're overgeneralizing here.
>
>> Lots of magic systems depend more on
>> ritual than on understanding, including many folkloric understandings of
magic.
>> Gestures don't do magic? How about knocking on wood, keeping your fingers
>> crossed, or tossing salt over your shoulder? Magic words often have
power in
>> themselves as well.
>
>No thats just how non practicioners percieve the situation
>
I've known plenty of "practitioners" of the knocking on wood, finger
crossing, & salt-tossing methods, and I'm sure they didn't require any deep
spiritual attunement to perform these rituals. (I believe knocking on wood
started as some sort of invocation or abjuration of wood spirits, but
people with no idea of this history still attach power to the ritual.)
Magic isn't always something exclusive to gifted or trained magi.
Especially in primitive societies, magical rituals are commonplace and
practiced by virtually everyone. Granted, these societies might have a
shaman or equivalent person who knows more about these things than others,
but even then much of their power is presumed to be from personal gifts,
relationships with spirits, and greater knowledge (as opposed to
understanding) of rituals and the magical properties of things.
>> The Xanth books are full of magic with very
>> little mental or spiritual understanding involved.
>
>Anyone using Xanth as a model for their magic is shooting for humor not
magick
>
I don't think they're mutually exclusive categories.
>> Faust got his abilities
>> by following a summoning ritual, then getting everything else from
>> Mephistopheles.
>
>Over looking the spiritual corruption and insanity that channelling nastiness
>gets you, turns diabolism into silliness.
>
Silly or not, Faust overlooked them.
>> Zatara and Zatanna cast spells by saying words backwards.
>
>That is just their personal foci for doing something, thinking that is all
>and I suppose if anyone in their world talked backwards magic would happen
>that is so funny.
>
Actually it is a personal gift for them. But in their comics stories, using
that gift clearly doesn't require understanding; Zatara cast his first
spell accidentally, reading aloud from the backwards-written works of
Leonardo DaVinci.
>
>> Some magic depends on altered
>> perceptions (e.g. Zelazny's Changeling & Madwand).
>
>ah drugs or what do you mean? more details please, ofcourse perceptions
>usually imply the mental state and this is in keeping with my argument
>not in conflict with it.
>
I meant to include drugs in my altered perceptions description, though the
mage in Changeling & Madwand is able to perceive reality on a different
level due to his own gifts, not drugs. It's been a long time since I read
those books, but as I recall he initially perceives reality with colored
strings extending all around; he pulls the strings (which to others looks
like moving his hands in mystical gestures) to manipulate the world. Later
he learns to tune his vision to perceive magic in other ways, allowing him
to do different kinds of things.
True, perceptions are more closely related to a mental state.
>> In other systems, the
>> power resides exclusively in ritual;
>
>I doubt it
>
>> knowing the right names, right
>> inscriptions, right materials, and right procedures is what's important,
>> not understanding their nature.
>
>from the ignorant outsiders point of view I'm sure this seems true ;)
>actually I'm a purely unbeliever but... read P. I. E. Bonewitz's
>Authentic Thaumateurgy.... I'm not particularly fond of his game
>mechanic ideas, but his magical theory is the closest thing you
>can get to the "R word" for magick ;)
>
I haven't read that, but I have read a fair amount on magic in my general
readings on myth. One particularly interesting book I have on my shelf is
Magic in the Middle Ages by (I think) Richard Kieckhefer; flipping through
it last night, I found lots of descriptions of magical beliefs, and no
mention at all of a mental state necessary to carry out rituals. And one of
the classic descriptions of magic is from Sir James George Frazer's Golden
Bough. Frazer identifies the principles of Sympathy and Contagion, but
makes no mention of a necessary understanding.
It sounds to me like you may be projecting a modern bias onto archaic ideas
of magic. In the Middle Ages, authority counted for a lot more than
original thought. A society that thought that way could easily believe that
a magic ritual could work just by following instructions; the word of
authorities was the basis for their entire intellectual life.
If you want further proof that ritual does not require understanding,
consider the Catholic Latin Mass. Up until a few decades ago, the Mass was
held exclusively in Latin, and Latin Masses are still held frequently. The
majority of people attending these masses do not understand Latin, yet find
meaning in the ritual anyway. Certainly this ritual *induces* a particular
mental state, but that is the power of the ritual, not what powers the
ritual, and it is not a state of conscious understanding.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
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