Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 35
Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:28 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #35
champ-l-digest Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 035
In this issue:
Re: Comeliness / Perception
RE: unsub
RE: Comeliness / Perception
RE: Negative Sight
RE: Negative Sight
Re: Comeliness / Perception
Re: Negative Sight
[none]
Re: not negative vision anymore. .
Re: Negative Sight
Re: Negative Sight
RE: Comeliness / Perception
Re: Negative Sight
Re: Negative Sight
RE: Negative Sight
Meta: digest mailing list
Re: Negative Sight
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:18:51 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Comeliness / Perception
>some would fall into that category Bob, but I know some people who are just
>about as dumb as a rock and yet very perceptive. Good hunters but you
>wouldn't want them doing any mental based work for you because there would
>be quite a few mistakes. But they can usuallt get their limit of deer with
>in the first couple of days of deer season.
There's almost no generalization of a stat that you can't find cases that
don't fit. Almost any time you have a characteristic in a game, it's an
amalgam of several related but not necessarily identical abilities, and
there will always be some people who don't fit the model.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:04:06 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: unsub
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: unsub
<snip>
> To unsubscribe from the Champions Mailing List send an email to
> <champ-l-request@sysabend.org> with UNSUBSCRIBE as the body
> of the message.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
>
> -= John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> =-
> -=
> -= Keeper of the Champions Mailing List.
> -= http://www.sysabend.org/champions
Maybe we should post this information to the list once a month, or
week even. It seems to get asked for a lot. We could also include the
mailing list FAQ address and other useful information.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:04:09 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Comeliness / Perception
From: Kim Foster
<snip>
>
>
> I might be in the minority, but I prefer Com as a stat. It
> allows for more
> variation in the appearnce of characters for comparison's
> sake. With the
> "talent" method, it tends to break down in two or three
> levels. You're
> eithers (for example) Pretty or Beautiful. Anything from
> homely to slightly
> attractive is lumped together and with the talents there
> are only two
> levels. The supermodel is Beautiful and so is the Goddess
> of Beauty.
Not quite. In HERO there are some Talents, like Speed Draw, which are
treated like skills. Not everyone with them is the same.
In Fuzion, they did the Fuzion equivalent with Beauty. A mere mortal
can have up to five levels in it; presumably the goddess of beauty has
even more.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:04:01 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Negative Sight
From: Lockie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
> To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 3:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Negative Sight
> >If you do that, human-sized bricks with the strength to lift
> >battleships won't be able to so much as reach out at arms length in
> >front of him and lift 1,000kg, even using both hands,
> since, no matter
> >how strong he is, a human being could never to that; it
> violates very
> >basic physics.
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
>
> not really base physical laws. . it's a practical issue.
> Tension, friction,
> surface area.
> There's no energy-based-concept that say that sort of force
> can't be applied
> over that
> small an area, it just usually results in things going
> 'kaboom' or 'crunch'.
Never heard of Archimedes? A human-sized (and massed) being cannot
reach out, grab a car, and lift it, because of the laws of balance.
None of the "practical issues" you mention are nearly so significant
and basic.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:04:04 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Negative Sight
From: Stainless Steel Rat
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> He didn't ask for the physics rational behind the
> character, he asked
> F> for how to represent a specific SFX: A man to whom dark
> was light and
> F> hot was cold.
>
> Ummm:
> >> In other words, biology and physics say that he will
> have no problem
> >> being able to see in this universe.
>
> If you think about that for a moment, you would relize that the game
> mechanics for this are simple: do nothing.
Which does not cover what he asked for, and isn't, in fact, even more
scientifically correct, since if you were right, then "darkness"
wouldn't even enter into the equation; you'd just be calling "light"
"darkness" if it came from his universe, and no other effect. If you
are correct,then what possible measurement could determine that
darkness in his universe was darkness? According to you, it would
behave like light in all respects. The question wouldn't even exist.
He wants someone who sees darkness, even like it is in our universe,
as if it were light. Your suggestion does not cover that idea, since
you specifically state that he wouldn't see darkness as light; he'd
see like everyone else. He'd never even know he was out of his
universe.
<snip>
>
> The other alternative is that the guy cannot see at all if
> you flip him out
> of his universe, since there is no 'radiant darkness' in
> this one. In
> which case the game mechanic is almost as simple: Physical
> Limitation:
> Blind, 25 points.
That would be closer to what was requested, but it still doesn't cover
the SFX requested.
> F> Besides, are you actually using physics in a comic book world? :)
>
> He made the statement that darkness in his universe is the
> same as light in
> ours.
He also clearly indicated that darkness in _our_ universe is the same
as light to him. Your mechanics do not cover this.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:15:41 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Comeliness / Perception
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: Comeliness / Perception
>At 07:50 AM 11/8/98 -0500, C. Badger wrote:
>>At 08:38 11/07/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>> If they're both nearsighted and absent-minded, then this is
consistent,
>>>since the game functions of INT ("the ability to take in and process data
>>>quickly") don't really reflect one's IQ or knowledge.
>>> At the same time, "Nearisighted" and "Absent-Minded" are both
>>>Disadvantages (both Physical Limitations, though some would consider the
>>>latter to be Psychological), and not really affected by Characteristics.
>>> The real question is, if a character is more able to "take in and
>>>process data quickly," then would that character logically be more able
to
>>>notice things that come within his field of perception (visual, audio,
>>>olfactory, or otherwise)?
>>
>>some would fall into that category Bob, but I know some people who are
just
>>about as dumb as a rock and yet very perceptive. Good hunters but you
>>wouldn't want them doing any mental based work for you because there would
>>be quite a few mistakes. But they can usuallt get their limit of deer
with
>>in the first couple of days of deer season.
>
> These, of course, are the guys with low INT and Enhanced Perception.
:-]
>
general intelligance irl, simply doesn't exist. Skill show very little
crossover,
even when they seem identical- like addition and subtraction in differrent
contexts.
They did tests of these street kids who sell stuff in. . um south america
somewhere,
comparing their skill in figuring proper change with *identical* sums in a
lab context.
VERY clear differences, which lessened a bit when the math questions were
phrased
as sales and change, ect. This is just one example, but there are many
others. So the
entire 'general int stat' idea is pretty silly from a realist perspective,
but so is general
str, and especially general coordination, ect.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:06:57 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
- -----Original Message-----
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
>> not really base physical laws. . it's a practical issue.
>> Tension, friction,
>> surface area.
>> There's no energy-based-concept that say that sort of force
>> can't be applied
>> over that
>> small an area, it just usually results in things going
>> 'kaboom' or 'crunch'.
>
>Never heard of Archimedes? A human-sized (and massed) being cannot
>reach out, grab a car, and lift it, because of the laws of balance.
>None of the "practical issues" you mention are nearly so significant
>and basic.
Well for one thing. . evnergy equals mass, so just as an object moving
towards the
speed of light gains mass, so does an object exerting extrodinary force on
another
object.
Second, the REASON that a human sized object is seen as such is that due to
the issues of friction and surface area, they are seperate from the ground
on which they
stand. Sink someone up to their knees in concrete, bolster it with steel,
and
assuming their tough enough to stand the strain, thay can lift as a relation
to the
mass on the concrete, not their own mass. If a super is strong enough, they
could concievable
ram one hand into the floor and grab hold of the steel mesh in reinforced
concrete,
and lift weght the other- again, it's an issue of friction and effective
mass, NOT force and the
mass of the mechanical entity.
Third, yer description is too precise, more precise than mine.
There is nothing from stopping superdude from lifting up one side of a car,
then leaning
in underneath, getting a good hold of the jack hardpoint on the other side,
and balancing
the load as he moved his centre of gravity into line with the car's. Sire,
the ground might crack,
and the car might buckle too, ect. The issue of lifting is far more a matter
of wether or not you are firmly grounded than wether or not you mass is
right. When people lift stuff, that's what they concentrate on.
Fourth, that doesn't disute my last point- there is no energy-based concept
that says you
can't apply large force over small area.
Fifth, for al we know all bricks have inate telekinesis anyway. I luuve them
naturalised plot devices!
>
>Filksinger
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:09:30 -0400
From: Juan Antonio Ramirez Morell <thanatos@amadeus.upr.clu.edu>
Subject: [none]
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From: Juan Antonio Ramirez Morell <thanatos@amadeus.upr.clu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:07:57 -0400
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On Mon, 09 Nov 1998, jonesl@cqnet.com.au wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
>>> not really base physical laws. . it's a practical issue.
>>> Tension, friction,
>>> surface area.
>>> There's no energy-based-concept that say that sort of force
>>> can't be applied
>>> over that
>>> small an area, it just usually results in things going
>>> 'kaboom' or 'crunch'.
>>
>>Never heard of Archimedes? A human-sized (and massed) being cannot
>>reach out, grab a car, and lift it, because of the laws of balance.
>>None of the "practical issues" you mention are nearly so significant
>>and basic.
>
>
>Well for one thing. . evnergy equals mass, so just as an object moving
>towards the
>speed of light gains mass, so does an object exerting extrodinary force on
>another
>object.
>
Not unless he's moving it... If you just "exert force" on an object without
moving it, you're not doing any "work" and not building any kinetic energy...
you'd just be expending internal energy... and so _losing_ mass.
[snip snip]
>
>Third, yer description is too precise, more precise than mine.
>There is nothing from stopping superdude from lifting up one side of a car,
>then leaning
>in underneath, getting a good hold of the jack hardpoint on the other side,
>and balancing
>the load as he moved his centre of gravity into line with the car's. Sire,
>the ground might crack,
>and the car might buckle too, ect. The issue of lifting is far more a matter
>of wether or not you are firmly grounded than wether or not you mass is
>right. When people lift stuff, that's what they concentrate on.
>
Yeah, but your superdude can't hold it out at arm's length... 8)
>Fourth, that doesn't disute my last point- there is no energy-based concept
>that says you
>can't apply large force over small area.
>
>Fifth, for al we know all bricks have inate telekinesis anyway. I luuve them
>naturalised plot devices!
>
8)
>>
>>Filksinger
>>
>>
Juan Antonio Ramirez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:17:52 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: not negative vision anymore. .
- -----Original Message-----
From: Juan Antonio Ramirez Morell <thanatos@amadeus.upr.clu.edu>
>>Well for one thing. . evnergy equals mass, so just as an object moving
>>towards the
>>speed of light gains mass, so does an object exerting extrodinary force on
>>another
>>object.
>>
>
>Not unless he's moving it... If you just "exert force" on an object without
>moving it, you're not doing any "work" and not building any kinetic
energy...
>you'd just be expending internal energy... and so _losing_ mass.
>
Hmm, maybe, maybe not.
Now on the other hand, were you to point out that the energy
was in *either* event transferred to another object, and hence the original
object
would lose mass while the 'destination' would gain it, i would be right with
you.
Of course, the entire first point was. . shall we say a *teensy* bit
non-serious?
>[snip snip]
>>
>>Third, yer description is too precise, more precise than mine.
>>There is nothing from stopping superdude from lifting up one side of a
car,
>>then leaning
>>in underneath, getting a good hold of the jack hardpoint on the other
side,
>>and balancing
>>the load as he moved his centre of gravity into line with the car's. Sire,
>>the ground might crack,
>>and the car might buckle too, ect. The issue of lifting is far more a
matter
>>of wether or not you are firmly grounded than wether or not you mass is
>>right. When people lift stuff, that's what they concentrate on.
>>
>
>Yeah, but your superdude can't hold it out at arm's length... 8)
>
yes, but he *can* lift it, as was originally posited. I mean superdude's
superduds would probably
rip off if he held it at arms length, due to the combination of the flexion
of his
ridiculously large calf muscles and his arm being extended, hence not
leaving any l
oose lycra across his back. Which is more important to the superhero of the
moment?
>>Fourth, that doesn't disute my last point- there is no energy-based
concept
>>that says you
>>can't apply large force over small area.
>>
>>Fifth, for al we know all bricks have inate telekinesis anyway. I luuve
them
>>naturalised plot devices!
>>
>
>8)
>
:->~
woops, my superhero version
B->~
ack, doesn't look right outside of ascII
>>>
>>>Filksinger
>>>
>>>
>
>
>Juan Antonio Ramirez
------------------------------
Date: 09 Nov 1998 10:31:46 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> He wants someone who sees darkness, even like it is in our universe,
F> as if it were light.
Well, you can't see darkness, per se. Darkness is a relative absence of
light. How can one perceive something that is not there?
Hand-waving the question, I'd do it with the aforementioned Physical
Limitation: Blind, and Discriminatory Spatial Awareness.
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------------------------------
Date: 09 Nov 1998 10:39:28 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
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"L" == Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> writes:
L> Well for one thing. . evnergy equals mass, so just as an object moving
L> towards the speed of light gains mass, so does an object exerting
L> extrodinary force on another object.
No. Velocity and energy are variable; mass remains constant. It only
seems that mass changes due to approximations made in flawed reference
frames, which is why e=mc^2 but k=0.5mv^2.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:59:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: RE: Comeliness / Perception
At 10:04 PM 11/8/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Kim Foster
><snip>
>>
>>
>> I might be in the minority, but I prefer Com as a stat. It
>> allows for more
>> variation in the appearnce of characters for comparison's
>> sake. With the
>> "talent" method, it tends to break down in two or three
>> levels. You're
>> eithers (for example) Pretty or Beautiful. Anything from
>> homely to slightly
>> attractive is lumped together and with the talents there
>> are only two
>> levels. The supermodel is Beautiful and so is the Goddess
>> of Beauty.
>
>Not quite. In HERO there are some Talents, like Speed Draw, which are
>treated like skills. Not everyone with them is the same.
The diffrence here is that Fast Draw can have diffrent levels of effect just
like a skill. The Beauty "talent" is generally a straight a modifer per
level. Every one thie, say +2 Beauty is the same.
>
>In Fuzion, they did the Fuzion equivalent with Beauty. A mere mortal
>can have up to five levels in it; presumably the goddess of beauty has
>even more.
>
>Filksinger
>
I think thats a maximum of three levels of beauty for anyone unless the GM
says otherwise, unless its been errata'ed it somewhere.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:16:12 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>"L" == Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> writes:
>
>L> Well for one thing. . evnergy equals mass, so just as an object moving
>L> towards the speed of light gains mass, so does an object exerting
>L> extrodinary force on another object.
>
>No. Velocity and energy are variable; mass remains constant. It only
>seems that mass changes due to approximations made in flawed reference
>frames, which is why e=mc^2 but k=0.5mv^2.
>
there's an unflawed frame of refrence now? Gee, with till
the empiricists find out- they'll be sooo smug all week.
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>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and
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> \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:53:16 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
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Okay, am I the only one who has visions of that ENEMIES THREE villian
the Might Darkon as this conversation starts getting into the semantics
of darkness?
"'Money doesn't talk--it screams."
--A.J. Benza, HOLLYWOOD MYSTERIES AND SCANDALS
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE, Tom Deja's webpage
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
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"F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> He wants someone who sees darkness, even like it is in our universe,
F> as if it were light.
Well, you can't see darkness, per se. Darkness is a relative absence of
light. How can one perceive something that is not there?
Hand-waving the question, I'd do it with the aforementioned Physical
Limitation: Blind, and Discriminatory Spatial Awareness.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:15:52 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Negative Sight
OK, here's my take on it. Give the character a Phys. Lim.: 'Nocturnal'
(All the time, Slight) to represent that he's only comfortable
working/playing/jogging in the park/etc. at night.
Then, apply your perfectly adequate reversed sight modifiers, and add
new ones as they come up, all as special effects of the Phys Lim. No
need to give him UV Vision or Spatial Awareness, as he can no more see
in a windowless, lightless room than I could see inside a giant halogen
lamp. Though I expect I would have other problems to worry about at
that point.
On the metaphysical front, I find the concept of the reversed
light/darkness spectrum intriguing. After all, in our universe,
darkness is the absence of light, and thus there is such a thing as
'absolute darkness' but no theoretical limit on the 'quantity' of light
you can squeeze into a particular space (or, if there is one, it's well
beyond the capacity of the naked eye to see anything that bright without
negative consequences). So, presumably, in this negative universe,
there would be such a thing as absolute light, with infinite levels of
darkness... How would this affect your character? Probably not at all,
unless he has Flash Defense, only vs. Darkness... Weird.
As an aside to certain individuals on the list: Don't get so hung up on
physics, not in Champions or Fantasy Hero, at least. When was the last
time you saw a character in any comic book who had more than a nodding
acquaintance with the laws of physics as they actually funciton? Yes, I
know you can find upwards of a dozen examples if you apply yourselves,
but there are literally thousands of super-powered characters in the
longer-running comic universes. If you express the relevance of
physical laws in a fantasy universe as a function of the portion of
characters to whom they apply, you would find them to be a very minor
consideration. Now, if someone wrote the list with the question, "What
would a brick with the Phys Lim 'Strength obeys laws of physics' expect
to encounter on a daily basis?" then all of this would be interesting
and relevant. As it is, I suspect there's a large element of science
geek bragging rights at issue, and very little else. I expect there's a
list for that somewhere.
And, as long as I'm carping & making enemies, one other thing. It's
spelled 'etc.' not 'ect.'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's an
abbreviation of the Latin phrase 'et cetera', not 'ectoplasm'. I
manfully ignore most of the spelling mistakes I see in e-mail, but I
don't think I've EVER seen this done right. Certainly not in the past
month or so.
(If you hard science types can correct each other over the laws of
motion and special relativity, us humanities grunts can at least make a
big issue out of the rules of language.;)
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
PS: Yes, I do take the time to proofread my e-mail before it goes out.
What's it to you?
jt
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 98 19:58:24
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Meta: digest mailing list
Would it not be better if the digest were in 3 or 4 digit format eg
Digest #0001?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:09:20 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Negative Sight
From: thomas deja <tdj723@webtv.net>
>Okay, am I the only one who has visions of that ENEMIES THREE villian
>the Might Darkon as this conversation starts getting into the semantics
>of darkness?
No. I just wasn't going to admit it. Eh.
Filksinger
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #35
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Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 02:57 PM