Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 350
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 1:12 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #350
champ-l-digest Wednesday, May 19 1999 Volume 01 : Number 350
In this issue:
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: The Hero system
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
Re: Re: The Hero system
5th edition changes
Re: Magic Systems (Was Re: The Hero system)
Re: mind link = encrypted comunications ?
Re: Re: The Hero system
Re: NCM Move By/Through
Re: 5th edition changes
Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:27:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
General comments:
1) It's already been mentioned, but I agree with the point that was made
about assuming there's a connection between the attack on Smith and the
goings-on at the house.
2) There were a lot of good suggestions for additional follow-up. However,
as was also pointed out previously, some of these things would start running
into some serious bucks. I wonder if there's some kind of budget for
criminal investigations ? Maybe the detectives in charge of the case have
to get approval for some of the tests and stuff ?
3) You might want to consider how much the LEOs in the case would try to
figure out what's actually going on versus how much they just want
things wrapped up neatly.
> From: "Richard O'Marro" <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Summary of the interview of James Madison Smith, Professor of Archaeology
> > at Princeton University. Subject was advised that he was not in custody
> > and was free to leave at any time. Subject did not request a lawyer and
> He does not have to REQUEST a lawyer, he has to verbally WAIVE HIS RIGHTS to a lawyer in front of witnessess. Otherwise the Police just violated the man's Miranda Rights and lost the case because they assumed he didn't want one because he didn't ask.
>
What case ? The reckless endangerment charge ? This gets into the question
of figuring out what's going on versus just wrapping things up.
Depending on their feelings about Smith's involvement, at this point they
may or may not be planning on charging him with anything.
> > Further questioning failed to provide satisfactory
> > answers to followup questions, including:
> >
> > - Why was the subject driving at 2:30 AM?
> Driving at 2:30 AM is not a crime unless the police have reasonable belief that he was participating on an illegal activity in that neighborhood at the time.
>
> > - Where is the subject staying? How did he plan to spend the hours until
> > the LofC opens?
> How he spends his time is not relevant to the case, and is a violation of the subject's privacy and civil rights.
>
> > - Any description or information about the missile that struck the truck:
> > subject insists there was an explosion onboard and no missile.
> There is no way you can prove the subject SAW the missile hit. He was obviously preoccupied driving his car recklessly and trying to maintain control of it. The OFFICER would have seen the missile, and if it did not seem to come from the car, Mr. Smith is not implicated in it in any way shape or form.
>
> > - What was going on at the house? What is your involvement?
> Again, this is not reasonably justified as being connected to Mr. Smith in any way shape or form and he can not be held for it unless more substancial proof other than "it was nearby" shows up.
I agree with Richard's points, but remember that these questions are
more geared to "what the hell is going on" rather than "we're going to
prosecute Smith for something." So, it seems to me that they are all
valid questions for the investigators, although not usable to charge
Smith with anything.
I'd be interested in hearing Mark (from Gold Rush Games) comment on this.
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:55:48 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
> I need write-ups for various horses, a 48 hour long sleep powder,
>and various "special" spells.
Oh boy, I'll try the spell. :)
>New Spell
>Unravel
>1st-Level
>Alteration Spell
>Range: 30 yards
>Components: V, S, M
>Duration: Permanent
>Casting Time: 1
>Area of Effect: 1 Object
>Saving Throw: None
>This spell creates small breaks or tears in soft, flexible objects. It
>creates a hole in a leather pouch, a glove, or a wineskin. It can also make
>a tear along a seam line in someone's clothes, creating side-splitting
>results. Magical items are completely unaffected by this spell. The maximum
>volume of material the caster can unravel is one cubic foot per level.
> The material component of this spell is a small pair of sewing scissors
>which must be worked with one hand while the spell is cast.
I would call this a Transformation. If it can be used in useful ways like
sever a shield or armor strap, I would call it Minor; otherwise, Cosmetic.
Define "soft, flexible objects" as 1 DEF, 2 BODY or less; a 2d6 Nonrandom
Transformation will always work (no saving throw).
2d6 Minor Transformation, AOE 1 hex, 0 END, Delayed Effect: 35 active.
Limitations: Gestures, Incantations, OAF Expendable, "Only affects limited
# of objects within AOE" (see below), "Only affects soft, flexible objects"
(-1/4; not too many hard, rigid objects with 1 DEF 2 BODY).
"Only affects limited # of objects": Since there are no levels in FH, you
need to decide how a character increases the amount he can affect.
Geoff Speare
I would call this a Minor Transformation
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:13:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
Why did you put Delayed Effect on this ? Just to model the AD&D
mechanism of studying and then later casting ?
Curt
> From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
>
> >New Spell
> >Unravel
> >1st-Level
> >Alteration Spell
> >Range: 30 yards
> >Components: V, S, M
> >Duration: Permanent
> >Casting Time: 1
> >Area of Effect: 1 Object
> >Saving Throw: None
> >This spell creates small breaks or tears in soft, flexible objects. It
> >creates a hole in a leather pouch, a glove, or a wineskin. It can also make
> >a tear along a seam line in someone's clothes, creating side-splitting
> >results. Magical items are completely unaffected by this spell. The maximum
> >volume of material the caster can unravel is one cubic foot per level.
> > The material component of this spell is a small pair of sewing scissors
> >which must be worked with one hand while the spell is cast.
>
> I would call this a Transformation. If it can be used in useful ways like
> sever a shield or armor strap, I would call it Minor; otherwise, Cosmetic.
>
> Define "soft, flexible objects" as 1 DEF, 2 BODY or less; a 2d6 Nonrandom
> Transformation will always work (no saving throw).
>
> 2d6 Minor Transformation, AOE 1 hex, 0 END, Delayed Effect: 35 active.
> Limitations: Gestures, Incantations, OAF Expendable, "Only affects limited
> # of objects within AOE" (see below), "Only affects soft, flexible objects"
> (-1/4; not too many hard, rigid objects with 1 DEF 2 BODY).
>
> "Only affects limited # of objects": Since there are no levels in FH, you
> need to decide how a character increases the amount he can affect.
>
> Geoff Speare
>
>
>
> I would call this a Minor Transformation
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:15:08 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
>Oh boy, I'll try the spell. :)
>
>>New Spell
>>Unravel
Looks like a KA to me, a minor one, destroys fabric, with stuff like only
vs fabrics, but otherwise similar to the writeup below.
>2d6 Minor Transformation, AOE 1 hex, 0 END, Delayed Effect: 35 active.
>Limitations: Gestures, Incantations, OAF Expendable, "Only affects limited
># of objects within AOE" (see below), "Only affects soft, flexible objects"
>(-1/4; not too many hard, rigid objects with 1 DEF 2 BODY).
No the target affected is defined by Transform (soft flexible to junk) so I
wouldn't say that is worth a limitation in this case)
>"Only affects limited # of objects": Since there are no levels in FH, you
>need to decide how a character increases the amount he can affect.
I'd drop this totally, if you want it to affect more, buy a more powerful
spell (or build it in the power pool).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:19:49 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Wedding Day (was Converting AD&D)
At 03:13 PM 5/18/99 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Why did you put Delayed Effect on this ? Just to model the AD&D
>mechanism of studying and then later casting ?
Yup.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:09:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
At 01:27 PM 5/18/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>2) There were a lot of good suggestions for additional follow-up. However,
>as was also pointed out previously, some of these things would start running
>into some serious bucks. I wonder if there's some kind of budget for
>criminal investigations ? Maybe the detectives in charge of the case have
>to get approval for some of the tests and stuff ?
Of course there's a budget. That's where the question of "is it worth
the trouble?" comes in. With a double homicide and additional violent
crimes on their hands, investigators would probably have a bit more leeway
than with a simple robbery, but there would be a limit.
Trolling for the truck, fully examining both vehicles, and making a
cursory examination into the backgrounds of the participants are probably
not out of the ordinary (IMHO). Neither would following up on whatever
leads these go to.
>I'd be interested in hearing Mark (from Gold Rush Games) comment on this.
Ditto! :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:05:18 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
At 06:31 AM 5/18/1999 PDT, Richard O'Marro wrote:
> OK, I'm from Arizona, not DC, but here's the errors I see right off hand
in the handling of this.
[snip]
>> Shortly thereafter, there was an explosion and disturbance nearby. A
>> police helicopter spotted two supine figures next to a car whose
>> upholstery was on fire. Nearby, the cupola on top of a three-story house
>> showed signs of forced entry. The figures rose, extinguished the flames
>> and attempted to leave the scene, but were apprehended. Both driver and
>> passenger had burns and multiple injuries to hands, chest and face, and
>
> OK, first off, the Supers were not seen starting the car o fire, but
witnessed trying to PUT IT OUT. They could not be held for arson to the car
unless more substancial proof was found. Same goes for the open door on the
roof of the three story building nearby. Unless they had something on them
immediately identifiable as from that building, the police could take names
and addresses for witness statements and furthur investigation, but could
not hold them.
Couldn't they be charged with leaving the scene of a crime, fleeing
police officers, or something similar?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:25:07 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
> FWIW The Hmong are a sub-group of Vietnamese who live in the
mountains,
>IIRC, and may also be known as Montaignards. They were allied with the
US
>forces during the conflict, and proved to be pretty effective on their
home
>turf. When the US forces departed, I suspect they got stomped on pretty
>heavily by the government from Hanoi.
So why on Earth would heavily (and illegally) armed Viet Nam vets be
trying to light one up?
Time to go find the old Police Officer who served "in Country" or head
down to the Veterans of Foreigns Wars or so on and find some one who
might know.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:44:38 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: The Hero system
>That's why I purposely try to run odd games like Vietnam and such at
>conventions, to show the flexibility. It will literally run any type
>of game but there are SOME systems that do it better at what they do
>(Toon, Call of Cthulhu).
I have run Heroic level cop-show/weirdness game, a heroic level western,
a Heroic level Star Trek game and the Omega Squad supers, which, at one
point turned into a dimension hopping game where I was challenged to come
up with many dimensions and I naturally ripped off every gaming book I
could beg, buy, borrow or preuse long enough to get a hint of the
setting, as well as anime and etc.
What sort of odd settings have you used HSR for?
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:45:01 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
>General comments:
>
>1) It's already been mentioned, but I agree with the point that was
>made about assuming there's a connection between the attack on Smith and
>the goings-on at the house.
There's apparently enough evidence to use that as a working hypothosis.
>2) There were a lot of good suggestions for additional follow-up.
However,
>as was also pointed out previously, some of these things would start
running
>into some serious bucks. I wonder if there's some kind of budget for
criminal investigations ? Maybe the detectives in charge of the case
have
>to get approval for some of the tests and stuff ?
Almost certainly. How common are shoot outs in that neighborhood? In bad
areas where crime is rampant then a limited budget is going to have th
stretch to cover more of them. People will be less outraged and there
will be less public demand for follow up.
OTOH if the area is calm and people are unused to such activities, then
you'll see a much more dedicated follow up, up to approaching the city
cgovernment to allocate emergency funds.
Depends really one what the GM feels is in character for the town itself.
>3) You might want to consider how much the LEOs in the case would try
>to figure out what's actually going on versus how much they just want
>things wrapped up neatly.
If they're NPC's then possibly. I have been talking from the POV of our
PC's in the Vista City Campaign, because they are the RPG cops I have the
most experience with.
>> > - What was going on at the house? What is your involvement?
>
>> Again, this is not reasonably justified as being connected to Mr.
>Smith in any way shape or form and he can not be held for it unless
>more substancial proof other than "it was nearby" shows up.
He was not nearby, he was the subject of a violent attack that ended in
the deaths of two people.
>I agree with Richard's points, but remember that these questions are
>more geared to "what the hell is going on" rather than "we're going
>to prosecute Smith for something." So, it seems to me that they are all
>valid questions for the investigators, although not usable to charge
>Smith with anything.
"What the hell is going on?" is a valid goal for the investigation.
>I'd be interested in hearing Mark (from Gold Rush Games) comment on
>this.
>
>Curt Hicks
Me too.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:56:56 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
> The average Law Enforcement officer is actually quite bright,
>generally with at least a Bachelor's Degree and often times a Master's
>and even a few have Doctorates. Most Law Enforcement agnencies have
>substancial incentive programs for Officers to constantly be
>participating and educational programs. Our agency not only gives
>added percentages to our pay and allows for faster promotional
>oppurtinities with education making up for some experience, but also
>pays 80% of tuition costs.
Not only this, but they are stubborn and paitent when pursuing this sort
of matter. There's an initial rush where you might caatch soebody
running in disorganized fashion, or there might be lives at stake. But
after the shooting dies down then you're looking at solid detective work.
And the Officer can keep following things up for *years* assuming the
case is high enough on his prioirty tree.
> Now in this instance, he would most likely immediately be charged
>with Reckless Endangerment, a Class 1 Misdemenor, but enough that he
>can be held as long as officers need while investigating higher
>charges.
Thnk so? How did he recklessly endanger anyone? Driving stupid seems to
be his self defence tactic.
> OK, first off, the Supers were not seen starting the car o fire, but
>witnessed trying to PUT IT OUT. They could not be held for arson to
>the car unless more substancial proof was found. Same goes for the
>open door on the roof of the three story building nearby. Unless they
>had something on them immediately identifiable as from that building,
>the police could take names and addresses for witness statements and
>furthur investigation, but could not hold them.
yup-yup. people nearby are witness unless the officers saw them doing
something otr unless there is evidence to back up their presence.
> Uh No. No NONONONO You CAN'T force entry into a private residence
>unlessthere is reasonable belief of present and immediate danger.
Getting shot at doesn't count? I am unclear if the house itself had been
shot at. if it had then Police would be justified in breaking in to
search for people down, wouldn't they?
>Now
>the officers going through the open coupola is investigating a
>possible breakin and seeing to the welfare of any people inside.
>Breaking in through the front door to see if anyone was hurt inside is
>a violation of the owners'civil rights unless a reasonable attempt was
>made to contact them in some OTHER way first.
Oh. Duh. Reasonabvle attempt to contact them first.
> Your police officers
>just set themselves up to be fired and for the police department to be
>subject to a large lawsuit for destruction of private property and
>illegal entry. investigating a door that's already been broken open is
>OK. Breaking open another one yourself is NOT.
Okay.
> They would not re-enter. Fire department and gas company would be
>calledto handle the situation for here adn would clear the house for
>entry first.
Okay.
> What scene? From the above, the owner would be contacted to see if
>anything was missin, but until he verified that there had infact been
>a break-in and burglary, there is no crime scene. You have no
>reasonable belief to base these things on.
Again I am unclear. If the house has been fired on, is that probable
cause to seach the house?
> Driving at 2:30 AM is not a crime unless the police have reasonable
>belief that he was participating on an illegal activity in that
>neighborhood at the time.
>
> How he spends his time is not relevant to the case, and is a
>violation of the subject's privacy and civil rights.
These are correct. The officer can *ask* but Prof. Smith is not
obligated to answer.
> There is no way you can prove the subject SAW the missile hit. He was
>obviously preoccupied driving his car recklessly and trying to
>maintain control of it. The OFFICER would have seen the missile, and
>if it did not seem to come from the car, Mr. Smith is not implicated
>in it in any way shape or form.
Except to be asked *why* the people in the truck were shooting at him so
avidly. And he's not obligated to answer unless supeonaed and put on
the stand under oath.
> All this evidence has been gathered illegally by the above reports
>and is thereby inadmissable in a court of law.
That could well be.
> They would probably drop the charge of Reckless Endangerment since
>all evidnce points to the fact that Mr. Smith was justified in what he
>did by right of Self Defense. As I've said, everything else was either
>illegally gained or circumstancial. Mr. Smith's permanent address and
>such would be taken for filing purposes, but that's about it.
They might ask him to help them to pin down what happened. I am not
certain that all the evidence is gained illegaly...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:09:42 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN (was Re: Fifth Edition)
> There is a change of pace, then there is just being mean to the
players and
> their characters. C.L.O.W.N. I view in the latter sense. I see them as an
> instrument of a GM's pettiness and selfishness.
Being mean to the characters and being mean to the players is and should be
two different things. Role playing your characters through adversity is
much more interesting than role playing them through an uneventful
situation. Just as you put it above "a GM's pettiness and selfishness.",
C.L.O.W.N. doesn't bring the pettiness to the game, the GM does. If your GM
isn't petty and your players don't take themselves so seriously that they
can't laugh at themselves then using the C.L.O.W.N. supplement once in a
while shouldn't be a problem. As I said before and I'll say it again,
"Depends on the group." Obviously from your reaction to the supplement your
group isn't one to enjoy the use C.L.O.W.N. That doesn't mean that others
aren't.
> I have done alot of humor in my campaigns over the years as a break
from the
> usual seriousness. All of it was geared for the enjoyment of the whole
group,
> not just myself.
Great, we've used C.L.O.W.N. for that very same purpose. Only one player
didn't like it. The rest of us had a blast. A couple of characters were
very unhappy but the players enjoyed role playing their character's
aggravation. We have also used 'Tales from the Floating Vagabond.' Silly,
but twice in three years is okay.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:34:15 -0400
From: "David Utter" <neo@prolaunch.com>
Subject: Re: Re: The Hero system
- ---- Begin Original Message ----
What sort of odd settings have you used HSR for?
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
- ---- End Original Message ----
Zelazny's "Roadmarks" book was the setting for a very intermittent game. The PCs were all troublemakers from various time periods who somehow got into lots of mis-adventures. Firefights with the Time Police happened quite frequently too.
David Utter
"Is that air you think you're breathing?"
Visit www.ProLaunch.com - cool sites, free stuff, free E-mail on your start page!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:52:38 -0500
From: John Meunier <jmeunier@indiana.edu>
Subject: 5th edition changes
Sorry for covering what I assume is old ground. Didn't see any reference
to this on the FAQ I saw.
What are the changes between 4th and 5th? I just dusted off my old 4th
edition rules and am looking at organizing a campaign/recruiting some
players. Are we all going to have vertigo when 5th comes out?
As an aside, I've been playing Champions since it came in a box with a
black and white cover on the rule book. Great game system. Looking
forward to getting back in the thick of it.
John Meunier
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:22:04 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Magic Systems (Was Re: The Hero system)
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> At 09:07 PM 5/17/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
> >
> >
> >Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> >> At 12:39 AM 5/15/99 -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
> >> >
> [snip]
> >> >Every mage... in every fantasy and every one in the real world who ever
> >> claimed to
> >> >be mages, the mage emphasizes the mental and the spiritual aspect of
> what is
> >> >done... DND turned it into the ritual does the
> >> >magic and you just cant remember how you did it that is so gauche and so
> >> wrong
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think you're overgeneralizing here.
> >
> >> Lots of magic systems depend more on
> >> ritual than on understanding, including many folkloric understandings of
> magic.
> >> Gestures don't do magic? How about knocking on wood, keeping your fingers
> >> crossed, or tossing salt over your shoulder? Magic words often have
> power in
> >> themselves as well.
> >
> >No thats just how non practicioners percieve the situation
> >
>
> I've known plenty of "practitioners" of the knocking on wood, finger
> crossing, & salt-tossing methods
heheheh and how many actually believe or do the just practice because its fun
and how many real affects do you see..... sorry I forgot I was putting aside my
general scepticism.. as I said I'm a <die in the wool> (sp) unbeliever, I have to
appologize
for being imbalanced in this discussion.
> , and I'm sure they didn't require any deep
> spiritual attunement to perform these rituals. (I believe knocking on wood
> started as some sort of invocation or abjuration of wood spirits, but
> people with no idea of this history still attach power to the ritual.)
> Magic isn't always something exclusive to gifted or trained magi.
> Especially in primitive societies, magical rituals are commonplace and
> practiced by virtually everyone.
Ummm my scientist self argues in the real world all magical thinking is a form
of irrationality I will respond later.
> Granted, these societies might have a
> shaman or equivalent person who knows more about these things than others,
> but even then much of their power is presumed to be from personal gifts,
> relationships with spirits, and greater knowledge (as opposed to
> understanding) of rituals and the magical properties of things.
>
> >> The Xanth books are full of magic with very
> >> little mental or spiritual understanding involved.
> >
> >Anyone using Xanth as a model for their magic is shooting for humor not
> magick
> >
>
> I don't think they're mutually exclusive categories.
I guess they are to me, magick is about mysteries which do not hold up
to humor...
> >> Faust got his abilities
> >> by following a summoning ritual, then getting everything else from
> >> Mephistopheles.
> >
> >Over looking the spiritual corruption and insanity that channelling nastiness
> >gets you, turns diabolism into silliness.
> >
>
> Silly or not, Faust overlooked them.
foolish was probably the word I was looking for but hey
>
>
> >> Zatara and Zatanna cast spells by saying words backwards.
> >
> >That is just their personal foci for doing something, thinking that is all
> >and I suppose if anyone in their world talked backwards magic would happen
> >that is so funny.
> >
>
> Actually it is a personal gift for them.
One of the elements oft attributed to Mages but not ADnD wizards..
> But in their comics stories, using
> that gift clearly doesn't require understanding; Zatara cast his first
> spell accidentally, reading aloud from the backwards-written works of
> Leonardo DaVinci.
You got me comic books can present magic as stupidly as ADnD ;)
stupid as in not involving mental elements
> >
> >> Some magic depends on altered
> >> perceptions (e.g. Zelazny's Changeling & Madwand).
> >
> >ah drugs or what do you mean? more details please, ofcourse perceptions
> >usually imply the mental state and this is in keeping with my argument
> >not in conflict with it.
> >
>
> I meant to include drugs in my altered perceptions description, though the
> mage in Changeling & Madwand is able to perceive reality on a different
> level due to his own gifts, not drugs. It's been a long time since I read
> those books, but as I recall he initially perceives reality with colored
> strings extending all around; he pulls the strings (which to others looks
> like moving his hands in mystical gestures) to manipulate the world. Later
> he learns to tune his vision to perceive magic in other ways, allowing him
> to do different kinds of things.
>
> True, perceptions are more closely related to a mental state.
generate a mental state to work a magick this is my argument so this works
perfectly fine.
>
> >> In other systems, the
> >> power resides exclusively in ritual;
> >
> >I doubt it
> >
> >> knowing the right names, right
> >> inscriptions, right materials, and right procedures is what's important,
> >> not understanding their nature.
> >
> >from the ignorant outsiders point of view I'm sure this seems true ;)
> >actually I'm a purely unbeliever but... read P. I. E. Bonewitz's
> >Authentic Thaumateurgy.... I'm not particularly fond of his game
> >mechanic ideas, but his magical theory is the closest thing you
> >can get to the "R word" for magick ;)
> >
>
> I haven't read that, but I have read a fair amount on magic in my general
> readings on myth.
> One particularly interesting book I have on my shelf is
> Magic in the Middle Ages by (I think) Richard Kieckhefer; flipping through
> it last night, I found lots of descriptions of magical beliefs,
Belief is an element of mental state... you sure make my argument some times
>
> and no
> mention at all of a mental state necessary to carry out rituals.
Common human or culturally specific experience sometimes generates the right
mental states
out of rituals even without one being explicitly told... I doubt the book was
intended
to actually teach the magick in and of itself anyway.
> And one of
> the classic descriptions of magic is from Sir James George Frazer's Golden
> Bough. Frazer identifies the principles of Sympathy and Contagion, but
> makes no mention of a necessary understanding.
knowing about the connections those rules supposedly make and belief in them is
used to generate
and is a part of the mental elements, this is a form of understanding. You talk
about some of the things
a mage is supposed to understand and claim in the same sentence that the mage is
supposed to use
it without understanding?????? what on earth do you mean. The rules affect the
forms of the
ritual.... they are how the mage designs his ritual. Understanding and belief in
Sympathy and Contagion and a Dozen other rules are some of the mental tools of
wizardry as well as the methods in designing the ritual
Belief in "as within so without" one of the rules of magic probably listed in the
book you mention... unfortunately I dont have that one on my shelf, which allows
internal states to affect the external reality is pretty fundamental
or one might say underlying to magic.
OOOPS That last sentence should be in IMHO but Bonewitz seems to agree, sorry for
using one source so much, it really is un scientific of me ;)
> It sounds to me like you may be projecting a modern bias onto archaic ideas of
> magic. In the Middle Ages, authority counted for a lot more than original
> thought. A society that thought that way could easily believe that a magic
> ritual could work just by following instructions; the word of authorities was
> the basis for their entire intellectual life.
> If you want further proof that ritual does not require understanding,
> consider the Catholic Latin Mass. Up until a few decades ago, the Mass was held
> exclusively in Latin,
which the priest understood perfectly well, you are going to make my argument for
me again ;)
> and Latin Masses are still held frequently. The majority of people attending
> these masses do not understand Latin, yet find meaning in the ritual anyway.
They are emotionally swayed by the mystery of it and the sounds in the same manner
people are influenced by music. Want to bet they dont know what "mental state"
they are looking for ;)
> Certainly this ritual *induces* a particular mental state, but that is the power
> of the ritual,
Yes ritual induces a mental state and that mental state is used to work a magic
> not what powers the ritual,
No magic does not power a ritual... rituals affect a mental state which aids in
the performance of a magik
> and it is not a state of conscious understanding.
Bonewitz gives a rather in depth description of how the masses in a mass
heheheheheh are
being prepared mentally by the priest to provide and transmit mana to their deity,
the priest who knows what he is doing is massaging the mental state of the masses
and the mana is being generated/allocated by the mental states of the
practitioners.. and the mystery of not knowing what the priest is saying can in
itself generate some interesting mana flavors... As can orgiastic witch dances ;)
different ritual different flavor mana nearly identical magic heheheh.
Transmition of flavored mana to the godhead
>
> Bill Svitavsky
Lance Dyas
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:45:27 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: mind link = encrypted comunications ?
>Dark Champions has an example of what you are trying to do. I don't have
my
>book with me but there is an example of a throat mike which uses Mind
Link
>as it's base power. Anyone got a copy handy ? I may be able to get it a
bit
>later and post the write-up.
(p. 34)
Mind Link, related group (the team using the radios) one at a time, OIF
(it's built into a helmet), Only with people who have this Mind Link, and
the -0 Lim that it's affected like the Radio Sense Group, not Mental
Sense Group.
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:12:35 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: The Hero system
>Zelazny's "Roadmarks" book was the setting for a very intermittent
>game. The PCs were all troublemakers from various time periods who
>somehow got into lots of mis-adventures. Firefights with the Time
>Police happened quite frequently too.
>
>David Utter
Coool.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:08:37 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: NCM Move By/Through
>>I am under no obligation to do what the book says if it suits me, my
>>players and my campaign to do something different.
>
>
>I understand and quite agree :-) Still, I can't argue an issue (if
arguing
>is even what we are actually doing) when you use "house rulings" for why
it
>wouldn't work vs. what is actually in the book. I personally play quite
a
>number of things quite different then the book. We shall see what 5th.
ed
>looks like. Hopefully some of my house rules will go away.
>
>~ Mike
We are not "arguing". We are discussing. And it is very informative to
me.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:53:21 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 5th edition changes
John Meunier wrote:
>
> What are the changes between 4th and 5th? I just dusted off
> my old 4th edition rules and am looking at organizing a
> campaign/recruiting some players. Are we all going to have
> vertigo when 5th comes out?
From what I can tell, expect a less drastic change than the
change from 3rd to 4th. (I miss -1/3")
Does www.herogames.com have any info? I'd check, but my
browser is going at a snails pace.
> As an aside, I've been playing Champions since it came in a
> box with a black and white cover on the rule book. Great
> game system. Looking forward to getting back in the thick
> of it.
I just recently found my fold out street... Have fun.
- -Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 May 99 18:31:20 PDT
From: "Richard O'Marro" <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
Subject: Re: What would your NPC LEOs do?
- ----------
> At 06:31 AM 5/18/1999 PDT, Richard O'Marro wrote:
> > OK, I'm from Arizona, not DC, but here's the errors I see right off =
hand
> in the handling of this.
> [snip]
> >> Shortly thereafter, there was an explosion and disturbance nearby. =
A
> >> police helicopter spotted two supine figures next to a car whose
> >> upholstery was on fire. Nearby, the cupola on top of a three-story =
house
> >> showed signs of forced entry. The figures rose, extinguished the =
flames
> >> and attempted to leave the scene, but were apprehended. Both driver=
and
> >> passenger had burns and multiple injuries to hands, chest and face, =
and
> >
> > OK, first off, the Supers were not seen starting the car o fire, but
> witnessed trying to PUT IT OUT. They could not be held for arson to the=
car
> unless more substancial proof was found. Same goes for the open door =
on the
> roof of the three story building nearby. Unless they had something on =
them
> immediately identifiable as from that building, the police could take =
names
> and addresses for witness statements and furthur investigation, but cou=
ld
> not hold them.
>
> Couldn't they be charged with leaving the scene of a crime, fleeing
> police officers, or something similar?
This would depend on details we're not given. If they were actively tryi=
ng to escape the police as ground officers came on the scene, yes they =
could be arrested for it, but usually woundn't be unless there seemed a =
probability of an investigation leading to something more major, or unles=
s they attempted to assaul officers in their flight.
Leaving the scene of a crime is somewhat sticky as well. Unless there =
was reason to believe involvement by the two other than being good samari=
tans trying to put out a car fire they spotted, it would be highly doubtf=
ul they would be detained, much less arrested for this.
Now I DO know that leaving the scene of an accident, even if you are not=
involved IS a crime in some places. A friend of mine from Germany tells =
me that it's a very serious offense if there is an auto accident, expecia=
lly with people hurt, and you do not stop to provide assistance if no one=
else is on the scene yet. If witnessed and they track you down they can =
levy heavy fines or even take your driver's liscence. Laws in other state=
s than Arizona may differ as well, I can't be sure of this.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #350
*****************************
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 03:58 PM