Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 362
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 5:20 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #362
champ-l-digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 362
In this issue:
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: SPD chart and timing issues
Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Hexless Combat
Re: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:43:32 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
At 05:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, jayphailey@juno.com wrote:
>>The problem he's suggesting is that the Riposte is virtually a combined
>>block/strike manuever. However I think that's adequately handled by a
>>Follow element on a Riposte manuever, since it _isn't_ a given you'll be
>>able to properly follow up with a riposte before your opponent can do
>>something else, though it's likely.
>
>In The Ultimate Martial Artist, there are rules for building Combination
>maneuvers that iclude things like a Block/attack maneuver.
>
>It's an optoional rule but mimics the way Combinations and katas work
>pretty well. The only problem is A> it can unbalance the game and B>
>pposing characters tend to fall down quickly.
The thing is, that is what HAPPENS when a competent martial
artist/swordsmen/etc faces poorly or un trained combattants, they wipe the
floor with them in moments. I don't have any problem with that end of the
Martial Arts spectrum, I just dont like martial artists doing 10-15 dice of
damage (which is pretty easy with strength, extra DC, a weapon, and a
maneuver -- I have had it sneak up on me when I built a character, not
really realizing what it added up to. CV does the same thing).
In a martial arts or a Champions game (and to a limited degree in a Fantasy
Hero game) I dont have any trouble with them, provided the OCV and damage
isn't too high.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:51:46 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues
All I can say here is VIVE LA HERO. Take a look at the wide variety of
different ideas and concepts offered, from the bare bones simple to
fascinating constructs involving limitations and rolls. The system is so
rich at this particular kind of thing, letting the GM or player in question
build the power or effect precisely as desired. Some require more
imagination to see (my +2 OCV strike means that I flip onto my hands
capoeira style and kick him in the jaw) and some are fairly structured (OK
I made my slieght of hand roll, with acrobatics complimentary, he didnt see
me pick up the dust in my slipper, so I make my attack, OCV is now +1
because I made the rolls, and the linked Flash attack goes off with the
kick maneuver (both fall) and because it is a full move required maneuver I
am done this phase).
Sometimes I remember what exactly it was that made me love this system in
the first place and it is pretty great.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:53:17 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
> Can you use a Damage Shield for "non-powers", for "Martial
>Maneuvers" such as Parry or Block, or simulate such with power constructs
>(using Armor, DCV, etc.)?
Sure, that's the ideal (although expensive) way to do it. You'd need GM
permission in a heroic game most of the time, though...
> Also, since it's been proven most Martial Maneuvers can be broken
>down into "power packages" of equivalent effect (plusses to OCV/DCV and
>additional damage, limited STR for certain maneuvers, etc.) to be used for
>extraordinary skill with a particular style, could the same be done in
>reverse, converting Powers into (House Rule Standard) maneuvers?
UMA did this for some things (Flash as a maneuver, IIRC), but I don't think
you could systematically do this for all Powers in a balanced fashion.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:22:08 EDT
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
In a message dated 5/28/99 12:19:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, puff@netcom.com
writes:
<< I haven't looked at the UMA book in ages; what's the "pattern
strike" supposed to represent? >>
Lawd a'mercy, you're asking me to delve way back into my memory.
That maneuver came from some information from one of the people who provided
me with information for the book. IIRC, it was a maneuver which, roughly
speaking of course, simulated the rhythm of constant attack which you
describe -- the attacker "sets up a pattern" where he gets in the rhythm to
block and then quickly counterstrike.
Steve Long
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
There have been a number of proposed constructs for Immortality.
With the advent of 5th edition, and the possibility of Post Mortem
Regeneration, many of these constructs that make heroes "harder to kill"
or "risen from the grave" might fall along the way side.
I'd like to start a discussion in regards to these mechanics:
their pros, their cons, their general feel, what settings and
circumstances they are suitable for.
I think we should begin with an analysis of Death in the HERO
system. What causes a person to die? Thanks to the rules of the HERO
system, it is pretty obvious to see what causes death most often: Damage.
The most obvious way to prevent death is to prevent damage. This
can be simulated fairly easily with Physical and Energy Defenses, Armor,
Force Field, or Damage Reduction of various grades.
The same general logic can be applied to STUN. Since, often
times, a character is defeated when they run out of STUN (and then, either
easily killed or dispatched), STUN damage control would be necessary to
make a character truly unstopable.
Thus, characters who can withstand the injury, but not the pain
caused by, various attacks could buy defenses vs. BODY only. Conversely,
characters who can not feel pain, feel less pain, or are exceptionally
tough in this regard can buy defenses vs. STUN only.
Augmented healing and recovery can be simulated with the Power of
Regeneration, additonal REC, additional CON, or additional STUN with
conditional Limitations.
"Super Regeneration" can be simulated with Armor, PD, or ED with
the Limitation: Attacks Still Penetrate (-1/4) [which would allow certain
attacks that normally cause BODY with Triggered effect to do so and would
also be less effective against certain SFX]. Not vs. STUN would also be a
suitable Limitation.
One construct I've seen to make a character "more difficult" to
wound would be DCV or a defense vs. certain hit locations, only to negate
bonuses gained for hit location modifiers, or Resistance (the Talent) Only
vs. Wounding (-1/2) coupled with additional CON vs. Disabling and Stunning
effects. A plus to EGO can also apply to Wounding effects.
Death can be prevented (or the time before death prolonged)
through many means. +BODY only to hold off death is one model suggested
by Mr. Surbrook. Another construct would be a +STUN Only while
unconcious, or STUN Aid, Only while unconcious. +CON, Only while stunned,
or Only to prevent stun damage, or REC, Only while stunned can be very
useful to "quick recoverers."
SPD, Only for recoveries, can be considered highly abuseable and
rules questionable.
Classical Invulnrability can be simulated with Lack of Weakness
and various other defenses along with Armor. Dense flesh can be bought
with Hardened, or coupled with Density Increase.
"Dense Flesh" can be simulated further with an appropiate ammount
of Physical EB, Damage Shield, Only up to DC of attacking power, Only
against attacks that are physical strikes against a character (not Grabs,
certain Trips, or powers with specific SFX that do not have an
action/reaction strike with the character), Not useable with Grabs.
Thus, a character striking this character can hurt their fists
while punching the Dense hero.
Resistances to certain forms of injury is best represented as
individually bought Life Support, or Power Defense versus specific types
of Damage.
I know there are probally many, many more constructs like this...
anyone care to throw a few out at me?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:59:28 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
> I'd like to start a discussion in regards to these mechanics:
>their pros, their cons, their general feel, what settings and
>circumstances they are suitable for.
I made an unkillable character once. He was designed to take the most
catastrophic attack and live through it comfortably (I used the nuke model
and the fall from orbit model on spikes (10D6 KA) and he would survive
both). He didnt have a lot in the way of stun protection and spent a lot
of time comatose, but he had a few constructs:
Regen, 1 bod/hour (one day and he is fine, that is grotesquely fast
regeneration, almost visible)
+20 BOD, only to prevent death
20 BOD starting
50% damage reduction, BOD ONLY vs pd, ed
10 pd armor
this made him pretty much unkillable without the regen from death option.
We always assumed that people would regen from death anyway, point out
anything from comics or literature where someone with regenerative powers
could not come back (healing lost limbs etc) from any horrific injury?
There is usually a way to kill them (like fire) and that was the assumption
as well, but it never occurred to us that it should cost more to do what
the genre material shows regularly. Seems to me that it should be a
limitation to regen if you can't heal lost limbs etc... why is that any
harder to accept than knitting together tissue and creating cells at such
an astonishing rate?
Another house rule was that you dont bleed if you have regen at any level.
Even 1 bod/Day is incredibly fast, someone could put you through a meat
grinder and you would be perfectly healthy in 3 weeks or so.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
SteveL1979@aol.com writes:
> << I haven't looked at the UMA book in ages; what's the "pattern
> strike" supposed to represent? >>
>
> Lawd a'mercy, you're asking me to delve way back into my memory.
> That maneuver came from some information from one of the people who provided
> me with information for the book. IIRC, it was a maneuver which, roughly
> speaking of course, simulated the rhythm of constant attack which you
> describe -- the attacker "sets up a pattern" where he gets in the rhythm to
> block and then quickly counterstrike.
Hm... sounds less like a maneuver and more like an underlying
principle, but then again we are talking about an abstraction of the
real thing. Filipino-style fighters, particularly with knives, are
amazingly deadly because of the emphasis on rapid, repeated strikes.
This is harder to make effective with fists, but with blades...
The sinawali, by the way, is one of the basic training maneuvers
used to teach this kind of thing. There are a number of different
sinawali patterns; heaven six and earth six being the basic pattern
(heaven with the knife held in the hand point up, earth with the knife
held point down, kind of like the classic horror movie grip, not that
a filipino fighter ever uses an overhand icepick strike).
There's a classic anecdote about an old filipino man whose family
brought him to the US. The story goes that a mugger pulled a knife on
him and he cut the mugger 22 times before the kid hit the ground. The
old guy was arrested and put on trial because to the police it looked
as if he'd been sitting there, viciously carving on the mugger's
unconscious body.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:20:31 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
At 11:06 AM 5/28/99 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 5/28/99 10:57:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>AJohnson@clariion.com writes:
>
><< 2) Block does not give you an extra attack. However, you can design a
>combination maneuver (look in Ninja Hero or The Ultimate Martial Artist)
>where you can Block-Strike. >>
>
> You'll find those rules in NH; they weren't included in UMA.
Although for some inexplicable reason, the warning about using them WAS
included (p. 128). That sent me flipping through the book for quite some
time. "Hmm ... maybe some of the pages are stuck together."
- --
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:20:37 -0500
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
At 11:12 AM 5/28/99 -0400, Johnson, Adam wrote:
>By golly you're right ... So a riposte could look like:
>
>OCV +2
>DCV +2
>STR+2d6 Strike
>Must follow successful block
>1/2 phase maneuver
Another way to do ripostes, that's a little wierder, more expensive, but
works a bit more like the theoretical "Block/Strike" maneuver.
Buy "Trigger: I successfully block an attack" on a combat maneuver (using
the guidelines on p. 129 of the UMA). At the beginning of your phase, you
turn on the Trigger; this shouldn't end your Phase, because you haven't made
an attack roll yet. Now, hold your phase until you get attacked, and Block
with the held phase. If the block works, the attack goes off automatically
on that opponent.
I'm not saying it's pretty, I'm just saying I thought of it. :/
- --
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:18:13 EDT
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
In a message dated 5/28/99 3:15:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
voxel@theramp.net writes:
<< Although for some inexplicable reason, the warning about using them WAS
included (p. 128). That sent me flipping through the book for quite some
time. "Hmm... maybe some of the pages are stuck together." >>
That would be an editing error, primarily one on my part. Sorry for
the confusion.
Steve Long
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:20:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
> From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
> We always assumed that people would regen from death anyway, point out
> anything from comics or literature where someone with regenerative powers
> could not come back (healing lost limbs etc) from any horrific injury?
> There is usually a way to kill them (like fire) and that was the assumption
> as well, but it never occurred to us that it should cost more to do what
> the genre material shows regularly. Seems to me that it should be a
> limitation to regen if you can't heal lost limbs etc... why is that any
> harder to accept than knitting together tissue and creating cells at such
> an astonishing rate?
>
> Another house rule was that you dont bleed if you have regen at any level.
> Even 1 bod/Day is incredibly fast, someone could put you through a meat
> grinder and you would be perfectly healthy in 3 weeks or so.
>
Yes. I thought the same.
I was just complaining a while back about the Fuzion rules coming out
and "limiting the value of Regeneration in Hero" by having a modifier that
allows you to regenerate from death; thereby implying that Hero System
Regeneration did not automatically allow you to do that.
Somebody else pointed out that Hero Regeneration does not actually specify
whether it works from death or not and asked a reasonable question as to
why I should assume that the Fuzion Regeneration rules should have any
relationship to Hero Regeneration. I was stumped.
I'm not stumped any more. The games are written by the same designers.
It's fairly obvious to me now that Hero Regeneration was not intended
to work from death, even if it's not specified.
I wonder what other 'clarifications' and 'expansions' in 5th edition will
cause us to be scraping for points.
Curt Hicks
p.s. As far as the thread title goes, I think there's a difference between
all three of Invulnerabl, Immortal, and Unstoppable.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
>>The problem he's suggesting is that the Riposte is virtually a combined
>>block/strike manuever. However I think that's adequately handled by a
>>Follow element on a Riposte manuever, since it _isn't_ a given you'll be
>>able to properly follow up with a riposte before your opponent can do
>>something else, though it's likely.
>
>In The Ultimate Martial Artist, there are rules for building Combination
>maneuvers that iclude things like a Block/attack maneuver.
>
>It's an optoional rule but mimics the way Combinations and katas work
>pretty well. The only problem is A> it can unbalance the game and B>
>pposing characters tend to fall down quickly.
I'm not really sure it does mimic it all that well, given that it sets up a
situation where the opponent can't drop back into a block at need, and
that's not really what happens with the Riposte or counterstrikes I'm
familiar with. I'm personally with Steve; a Follow manuever seems more
appropriate.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:25:56 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
The new Hero Regeneration does work form Death. That's the way it can be
bought for extra points, at least in Creation Workshop's program.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:27:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
> From mitchels@megsinet.net Fri May 28 14:25 CDT 1999
> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:25:56 -0500
> From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
>>
> The new Hero Regeneration does work form Death. That's the way it can be
> bought for extra points, at least in Creation Workshop's program.
>
>
Yes. It works from death, IF you pay the extra points.
Previously, you could make the interpretation that it works from
death WITHOUT paying EXTRA points.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:13:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
>
>
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>> >>1) Contretemp (pardon my french: against the timing) attacks rely on
>> >breaking the
>> >>rythm of combat on purpose to take your opponent off guard.
>> >
>> >Held phases, anyone?
>>
>> Or more likely levels that require a certain amount of setup time.
>
>ummm is this the same suggestion as the fellow who said to combine
>held phases with skill levels at attacks out of phase?
Not exactly. It's closer to the thing Steve Long calls a pattern attack in
the UMA.
>
>> >
>> >>2) Ripostes involve making an extra opportunity out of a good parry.
>> >
>> >Block maneuver
>>
>> The problem he's suggesting is that the Riposte is virtually a combined
>> block/strike manuever.
>
>Exactly and is actually a common move
>
>> However I think that's adequately handled by a
>> Follow element on a Riposte manuever,
>
>hmmmm explain, is this Skill levels only for following a block?
No, there's actually a manuever element (a limiter) in the UMA for manuevers
that can only follow a given manuever; since this makes it possible to build
a pretty accurate attack, and since ripostes and counterstrikes tend to be
fairly specific in their execution, I think it's generally better than just
levels.
>> >>3) Flurries involve making a series of extra quick short stroke attacks to
>> >push
>> >>your opponent on the defensive.
>> >
>> >high OCV attack manuever defined as flurries
>>
>> Again, not quite since there's some limitations on it's success. If you
>> don't let yourself overreact, a flurry doesn't work. It's actually, in
>> practice, more of a Presence attack.
>
>I did mentioned the presence element... in my description of the flurry.
Well, I suspect it might well be best simulated by allowing someone to do
something like turn one combat level into an extra D6 of Presence attack,
only for that specific kind of attack. For the most part, I suspect it's
just part of the general technique subsumed in an attack roll, though.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:17:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
>By golly you're right...
>
>So a riposte could look like:
>
>OCV +2
>DCV +2
>STR+2d6 Strike
>Must follow successful block
>1/2 phase maneuver
Not sure but that I'd make it a little cheaper and not give it that big a
DCV bonus, personally; a riposte is pretty likely to get through, but it
doesn't actually make your next defense all that much better.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
- --- Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
> > From mitchels@megsinet.net Fri May 28 14:25 CDT 1999
> > Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:25:56 -0500
> > From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
> >>
> > The new Hero Regeneration does work form Death. That's the way it
> can be
> > bought for extra points, at least in Creation Workshop's program.
>
> Yes. It works from death, IF you pay the extra points.
>
> Previously, you could make the interpretation that it works from
> death WITHOUT paying EXTRA points.
Not wanting to beat a dead subject but, I thought Persistant powers
stopped working with the death of the character. You would have to
have Uncontrolled Regeneration for it to work beyond death. I don't
think the rules support your point of view if my understanding of
Persistant is consistent with the BBB.
Joe
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:56:30 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: Hexless Combat
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> On a related point, we have started to use hexless matts,
> just a blank matt
> with a plastic sheet over it to draw the terrain on. If you
> want to move,
> you measure it out, if you want to shoot, you shoot, then we
> measure the
> range to see the mods and if you made it, etc. The estimating really
> helps, especially for people who 'rule play' and use the SPD
> chart and such.
I'm curious. Range modifiers are easy (you just stretch the string and
measure it), but how do you do movement exactly. Straight-line movement
shouldn't be a problem (trusty string again), but what about other moves
(like speedsters running around for multiple move-bys or the like)?
thanks,
grant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:11:43 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat
At 12:56 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
>> On a related point, we have started to use hexless matts,
>> just a blank matt
>> with a plastic sheet over it to draw the terrain on. If you
>> want to move,
>> you measure it out, if you want to shoot, you shoot, then we
>> measure the
>> range to see the mods and if you made it, etc. The estimating really
>> helps, especially for people who 'rule play' and use the SPD
>> chart and such.
>
>
>I'm curious. Range modifiers are easy (you just stretch the string and
>measure it), but how do you do movement exactly. Straight-line movement
>shouldn't be a problem (trusty string again), but what about other moves
>(like speedsters running around for multiple move-bys or the like)?
I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
miniatures.
As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the distances involved.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:21:45 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
What? No tactical map? How can you run big fights with any precision?
I'm telling you, white board and combat string is the way to go. Chris
Hartjes saw my setup once and ran right out to buy his own white board.
Until I have some sort of holographic combat simulator that responds to my
alpha waves, these are my GMing tools.
] I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
] miniatures.
] As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
] distances involved.
]
]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:24:15 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 04:21 PM 5/28/99 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>What? No tactical map? How can you run big fights with any precision?
>
>I'm telling you, white board and combat string is the way to go. Chris
>Hartjes saw my setup once and ran right out to buy his own white board.
>Until I have some sort of holographic combat simulator that responds to my
>alpha waves, these are my GMing tools.
I can see the value of the hexless system for the sake of simplicity.
Hell, we've run combats just fine by putting figures on chair arms,
coffee tables and beer cans, and just eyeballing the figures. But
usually we reserve such a system for days when we've forgotten the
board.
I get the impression that you prefer the hexless system even when a
hex board is available. What advantages do you see in this? Let's
say for the sake of discussion that I have a perfectly reliable hex
board. Would you recommend that I get rid of it?
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:35:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
At 11:46 AM 5/28/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> My question is:
>
> Can you use a Damage Shield for "non-powers", for "Martial
>Maneuvers" such as Parry or Block, or simulate such with power constructs
>(using Armor, DCV, etc.)?
>
> A construct such as this with limitations like Must make OCV/DCV
>roll (-1/2), or Must follow Block (-1/2) could simulate a wide variety of
>Strike/Counterstrike maneuvers.
This should be OK, depending on how the GM feels about it. Some will
prefer this, in fact, though others will understandably feel more
comfortable tweaking the Martial Arts rules.
One danger here is making sure that the Power has just the right
Limitations for what you're trying to do, and doesn't have an extra
Limitation that isn't desired. For example, Damage Shield is written so
that it only take effect if the opponent makes a successful hand-to-hand
Attack Roll, or the character makes a successful Grab (though I'm not
convinced that this was the original intent). If you want your Damage
Shield Block to function under some other circumstance, then you'll need to
either extend the rules for Damage Shield (as I do) or come up with some
other way of doing it.
> Also, since it's been proven most Martial Maneuvers can be broken
>down into "power packages" of equivalent effect (plusses to OCV/DCV and
>additional damage, limited STR for certain maneuvers, etc.) to be used for
>extraordinary skill with a particular style, could the same be done in
>reverse, converting Powers into (House Rule Standard) maneuvers?
I've gone so far as to wonder if the Ranged Martial Arts rules can be
used to create special techniques with superpowers, and am toying with the
idea of using them for Mental Powers as well.
I think, however, that you may be going a different direction here. Are
you suggesting, for instance, that a Martial Art maneuver could, say, have
a 2d6 STR Drain as its primary base? I suppose this could be done, though
I'd want to look closely at any Maneuver that did this.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:47:07 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: SPD chart and timing issues was RE:(null)
I read all the other messages and decided to cut out my own suggestions for
maneuvers which weren't nearly as varied or detailed as those so many of you
have already posted.
One thin I think should still be thrown in (though Christopher has already
pointed it out--I'm starting to really sound like his lackey aren't I?):
different real-world martial arts maneuvers don't necessarily need different
game maneuvers to simulate them perfectly well in HERO system.
The HERO system's combat is designed to work for all genres and styles of
fighting. As such, it can't simulate any one combat style perfectly. If you
have a campaign that focuses on fencing (Three Musketeers, Man in the Iron
Mask?), I'd suggest trying some optional combat rules (such as those so many
others have mentioned from UMA) to reflect the specifics of that genre. I
wouldn't use those rules in games involving multiple fighting styles (like a
Fantasy HERO game with fighters who use rapiers, axes, katanas, and big
two-handed swords) where I think the rules would favor certain fighting
styles or unnecessarily complicate things, but in Superheroic games, I have
no problem letting martial artists use special martial arts rules--though at
those power levels it's probably better to build them as powers anyway.
I agree that if you're running a fencing campaign you may want to make up
some specific combat rules for it. As it stands though, HERO system
simulates lots of combat effects with OCV/DCV levels. I went through a long
period trying to simulate different real-world maneuvers from my favorite
martial art with different _game_ maneuvers: different strikes, throws, and
blocks. Finally it occurred to me that the difference between martial art
styles in the game isn't as much the game maneuvers as how you _describe_
those game maneuvers as real-world maneuvers. Of course, this is true of the
whole HERO system: special effects describe your powers and abilities, the
mechanics just give it a game effect. Just because the real-world attack is
made up of several quick strikes in succession, does not necessarily mean
that the game mechanic should include autofire. (In fact, often I think
real-world automatic weapons are often better simulated by higher damage
than by autofire.) I think Stainless Steel Rat points this sort of thing out
pretty regularly.
just trying to be helpful :)
grant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:03:04 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>> Previously, you could make the interpretation that it works from
>> death WITHOUT paying EXTRA points.
>
>Not wanting to beat a dead subject but, I thought Persistant powers
>stopped working with the death of the character. You would have to
>have Uncontrolled Regeneration for it to work beyond death. I don't
>think the rules support your point of view if my understanding of
>Persistant is consistent with the BBB.
Thats an interesting point, I would guess that Regen would have to be a
specialty power, but technically all powers that aren't independant cease
upon death (unless you are of the school that triggers are sort of mini
independents).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:04:16 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat
>> On a related point, we have started to use hexless matts,
>> just a blank matt
>> with a plastic sheet over it to draw the terrain on. If you
>> want to move,
>> you measure it out, if you want to shoot, you shoot, then we
>> measure the
>> range to see the mods and if you made it, etc. The estimating really
>> helps, especially for people who 'rule play' and use the SPD
>> chart and such.
>
>
>I'm curious. Range modifiers are easy (you just stretch the string and
>measure it), but how do you do movement exactly. Straight-line movement
>shouldn't be a problem (trusty string again), but what about other moves
>(like speedsters running around for multiple move-bys or the like)?
It hasnt come up but it would work the same way as with hexes, you measure
and have standard turns, it would make you really careful for measurements
(as opposed to fudging, ahh he can make that corner)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:07:12 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
>I can see the value of the hexless system for the sake of simplicity.
>Hell, we've run combats just fine by putting figures on chair arms,
>coffee tables and beer cans, and just eyeballing the figures. But
>usually we reserve such a system for days when we've forgotten the
>board.
>
>I get the impression that you prefer the hexless system even when a
>hex board is available. What advantages do you see in this? Let's
>say for the sake of discussion that I have a perfectly reliable hex
>board. Would you recommend that I get rid of it?
For me (we have several hex mats, including a transparent one) the value is
nobody counts hexes any more. There aren't hexes on the ground for you
when you are running and shooting in real life, so it adds to the
believability factor.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:12:57 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>Thats an interesting point, I would guess that Regen would have to be a
specialty power, but technically all powers that aren't independant cease
upon death (unless you are of the school that triggers are sort of mini
independents).<
I think we have to treat the new Regeneration as a specialty power designed
for a specific reason. The extra 20pts (I think it was 20) only has one
purpose: To bring the dead person back to life.
I can't speak for most campaigns, but it's very rare for anyone in my game
to ever take more than 3 body. Let's face it, someone with 30pts of
resistant defense is going to bounce everything up to 9d6 killing (on
average), or 5d6 AP killing.
It's too bad we never got an "official" ruling on that Trigger. I'm still
curious about it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat
>I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
>miniatures.
>As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the distances involved.
Some games I'm comfortable doing this, but in Champions in particular, too
many issues turn on fairly precise distances (movement, range mods,
explosive and area effects) and my observation has been that it can be very
difficult to describe the situation in quite enough detail for these to be
handled adequately. I did so just a few days ago when running a solo game
for my fiancee, and while it wasn't terrible with one player and an
opposition that consisted of a single villain and some thugs, even there it
causes some problems for me. I wouldn't think of doing it with any more
complicated a situation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:11:07 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
Scott C. Nolan wrote:
> In my group, we only rarely use
> miniatures.
> As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
> distances involved.
Since I began playing HERO system, I've used some way to fairly accurately
measure the distances involved. A week or two ago I played with a new group
of people who didn't measure the distances in any way: the "map" wasn't
close to scale and the GM just decided how far characters could move and if
there were range modifiers. I was very uncomfortable with it as I'm used to
things run a bit tighter than that. I also enjoy some the tactical (or more
"wargaming") aspects of HERO system combat.
How do things work for you? Do you attempt to involve any sort of tactical
(in game terms) elements to your combats? Do characters buy widely different
amounts of combat movement? Do you worry about range modifiers?
To me the play felt so different it seemed like another game almost.
I'm just curious how this works for you.
grant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:16:52 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> I can see the value of the hexless system for the sake of simplicity.
> Hell, we've run combats just fine by putting figures on chair arms,
> coffee tables and beer cans, and just eyeballing the figures. But
> usually we reserve such a system for days when we've forgotten the
> board.
>
> I get the impression that you prefer the hexless system even when a
> hex board is available. What advantages do you see in this? Let's
> say for the sake of discussion that I have a perfectly reliable hex
> board. Would you recommend that I get rid of it?
I doubt your response was directed at me, but I'll take this opportunity to
clarify my questions. :)
I've been used to using a hex mat. Christopher Taylor suggested just
measuring the distances rather than counting hexes. I'm not sure a hexless
playing surface is simpler. Hexes seem easier to me because I'm better used
to it, but I think either system would work just fine.
I'm curious how different people work the physical, real-world parts of
determining distances for especially movement that's not along a straight
line.
grant
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #362
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 04:00 PM