Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 363
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 9:42 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #363
champ-l-digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 363
In this issue:
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: Elastica, The Rubber Girl
Re: END reserves
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Champs Page???
RE: Hexless Combat
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
RE: Hexless Combat
Does anyone mind if I post something kind of long?
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
Gods' Story [Very Long; Off-Topic]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:23:18 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>>> Previously, you could make the interpretation that it works from
>>> death WITHOUT paying EXTRA points.
>>
>>Not wanting to beat a dead subject but, I thought Persistant powers
>>stopped working with the death of the character. You would have to
>>have Uncontrolled Regeneration for it to work beyond death. I don't
>>think the rules support your point of view if my understanding of
>>Persistant is consistent with the BBB.
Why should an elephant (several levels of Growth, Persistent, always on)=
suddenly shrink back to human size after he dies? That's contrary to my=
experience of what happens when a very large creature dies in real life.=
If the Hero System models it that way, it's doing so inaccurately.
IIRC, the idea that Persistent expires with the character first came up in=
FH, 2nd edition; before that, it was a sort of GM's call. I'd say the=
special effects of the power should determine if the Persistent wears off=
or not. There are plenty of examples in various genres of spells and=
magical effects outliving their castors and creators.
Guy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>I think we have to treat the new Regeneration as a specialty power designed
>for a specific reason. The extra 20pts (I think it was 20) only has one
>purpose: To bring the dead person back to life.
>
>I can't speak for most campaigns, but it's very rare for anyone in my game
>to ever take more than 3 body. Let's face it, someone with 30pts of
>resistant defense is going to bounce everything up to 9d6 killing (on
>average), or 5d6 AP killing.
To some extent that's true because you need to have at least moderate
resistant defenses to survive, however; with the regen-from-death, I could
very well see building certain types (such as vampires or other hard to kill
permanantly types) with much lower resistant defenses and simply accepting
they'll 'die' once in a while. It's a very useful tool for some character
concepts.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:20:02 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Simulated Swashbuckling Strikes in HERO
> There were a series of posts on Fencing a while back (The
>Ultimate Swashbuckler, Errol Flynn, and a few more I can't remember).
There was an Ultimate Swashbuckler?
> My question is:
>
> Can you use a Damage Shield for "non-powers", for "Martial
>Maneuvers" such as Parry or Block, or simulate such with power
>constructs (using Armor, DCV, etc.)?
If your GM says so.
> A construct such as this with limitations like Must make
>OCV/DCV roll (-1/2), or Must follow Block (-1/2) could simulate a wide
variety
>of Strike/Counterstrike maneuvers.
Sure. If I were GMing, I would say yes, *if* you had the ocv roll, and
the damage was about 1/2 that of a normal strike...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>IIRC, the idea that Persistent expires with the character first came up in
FH, 2nd edition; before that, it was a sort of GM's call. I'd say the
special effects of the power should determine if the Persistent wears off or
not. There are plenty of examples in various genres of spells and magical
effects outliving their castors and creators.
I tend to agree with this, though I don't think it was ever really relevant
to regeneration question; what was was whether regeneration would in fact
counteract that condition called 'dead'. I think it was a stretch to say it
would, since at that point you'd be effectively arguing the Healing Aids
could do the same thing.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:28:06 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
Christopher Taylor wrote:
[he uses hexless playing surfaces to discourage "hex-counting" and other
"playing the rules" things]
[grant asked about specific methods to measure movement]
Christopher Taylor answered:
> It hasnt come up but it would work the same way as with
> hexes, you measure
> and have standard turns, it would make you really careful for
> measurements
> (as opposed to fudging, ahh he can make that corner)
You're playing Fantasy HERO, aren't you? :)
I was curious whether you lay out string cut to length or measure the
character's planned movement in segments with dividers (like on those
strategic battle maps in WWII movies) or what?
The string seems easier, but then I suspect you'd get players taking fifteen
minutes to fiddle with their string (hehe) and figure out the most movement
they could get. Dividers seems clunky and almost as time consuming. I can
also see using string to set a radius to move within, but that breaks down
when you have any character that does a lot of running (or flying) around.
I understand your point with the range modifiers especially, but movement
seems really easy with hexes on the map--you just count out your squares
like you're playing Parcheesi. :)
thanks
grant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:23:28 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 04:21 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>What? No tactical map? How can you run big fights with any precision?
>
>I'm telling you, white board and combat string is the way to go. Chris
>Hartjes saw my setup once and ran right out to buy his own white board.
>Until I have some sort of holographic combat simulator that responds to my
>alpha waves, these are my GMing tools.
>
>
>] I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
>] miniatures.
>] As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
>] distances involved.
Precision is overrated. It's a role-playing game, not a strategy boardgame.
The story takes precedence over mechanics in my games.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:28:17 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>>Thats an interesting point, I would guess that Regen would have to be a
>specialty power, but technically all powers that aren't independant cease
>upon death (unless you are of the school that triggers are sort of mini
>independents).<
>
>I think we have to treat the new Regeneration as a specialty power designed
>for a specific reason. The extra 20pts (I think it was 20) only has one
>purpose: To bring the dead person back to life.
>
>I can't speak for most campaigns, but it's very rare for anyone in my game
>to ever take more than 3 body. Let's face it, someone with 30pts of
>resistant defense is going to bounce everything up to 9d6 killing (on
>average), or 5d6 AP killing.
In the Fantasy Hero game I have killed a couple people, hacked off limbs,
had a guy fall in lava and be scarred and impaired so horribly he retired.
But in Champions its rare for anyone to take BOD I agree.
>It's too bad we never got an "official" ruling on that Trigger. I'm still
>curious about it.
Me too, maybe they aren't sure either LOL.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:33:18 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>>IIRC, the idea that Persistent expires with the character first came up in
>FH, 2nd edition; before that, it was a sort of GM's call. I'd say the
>special effects of the power should determine if the Persistent wears off or
>not. There are plenty of examples in various genres of spells and magical
>effects outliving their castors and creators.
>
>I tend to agree with this, though I don't think it was ever really relevant
>to regeneration question; what was was whether regeneration would in fact
>counteract that condition called 'dead'. I think it was a stretch to say it
>would, since at that point you'd be effectively arguing the Healing Aids
>could do the same thing.
I suppose, I just was using the logic that Comic books, books, etc in the
large majority represent regen being from beyond 'death' and healing lost
limbs etc. Since the purpose of the game system is to accurately represent
the genre and source material (within game balance, thanks whoever reminded
me of that), then the way regen is used in that source material would carry
over to the game. Doesn't mean that was the intent of the power, but since
it wasn't stated, I just guessed it was.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:30:00 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 02:11 PM 5/28/99 -0700, Grant Enfield wrote:
>
>Scott C. Nolan wrote:
>
>> In my group, we only rarely use
>> miniatures.
>> As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
>> distances involved.
>
>Since I began playing HERO system, I've used some way to fairly accurately
>measure the distances involved. A week or two ago I played with a new group
>of people who didn't measure the distances in any way: the "map" wasn't
>close to scale and the GM just decided how far characters could move and if
>there were range modifiers. I was very uncomfortable with it as I'm used to
>things run a bit tighter than that. I also enjoy some the tactical (or more
>"wargaming") aspects of HERO system combat.
>
>How do things work for you? Do you attempt to involve any sort of tactical
>(in game terms) elements to your combats?
Absolutely. I describe the setting and if the players want to try something,
such as diving for cover or a move-through, they ask me if the range is
is reasonable for that maneuver.
>Do characters buy widely different
>amounts of combat movement?
Well, it's an heroic-level game, so not widely, no. But the slowest character
has a move of 6" and the fastest a move of 10".
>Do you worry about range modifiers?
You bet. I say that the target is 20 meters away, and then we look at
the range chart.
>To me the play felt so different it seemed like another game almost.
I agree. To me and my players, a better game. I still bring out
the board and miniatures for truly complex, multi-level arenas
or for combats with hordes of bad guys.
>I'm just curious how this works for you.
>
>
>
>grant
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 May 99 22:58:54
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Elastica, The Rubber Girl
On Mon, 17 May 1999 03:38:55 -0400 (EDT), Jason Sullivan wrote:
>I'm working on a a low level Stretcher called Elastica.
>
>She can change her form to become pliant and rubber. She is able to bend
>into many different shapes. She is not a "super" stretcher, as her powers
>are very limited. Here is what I have so far:
>
>Cost Powers & Skills
> 9 Stretching: 2", Indirect (+3/4); No Noncombat Stretch
> (-1/4), Limited Power: Indirect only represents the fact the
> Stretching can curve in unusual and interesting ways (and thus
> may warrant Suprise), and it can not directly penetrate Force
> Walls, but can "go around" them, [Only applied to Indirect] (-1/4)
>
> 8 EC: Rubbery Skin, Limitation: All powers are Non-Persistant (-1/4)
> 8 50% Damage Reduction, Physical, Non Persistant (-1/4)
> 8 +20 PD, Non Persistant (-1/4)
Shouldn't these be OIHID?
How about adding extra Running and Flight?
>10 EC: Super Contortionist
>11 Desolid, Only for going through non solid barriers,
>specifically bars, tubes, and other objects Elastica can squeeze her head
>through (-3/4), Does not prevent damage (-1)
> 7 Shapeshift; Limited Group: Contorted shapes; Shapes do not
>alter in color, nor can the tactile surface change significantly (i.e.
>this is a "non cosmetic" change; only the general "form" changes)
>Elastica retains the same basic structure (two arms, two legs, a torso,
>and a head), but can contort her body into unusual shapes, fit into small
>areas, and squeeze through bars and the like (-1/2)
>
> +X STR, Requires Skill Roll (Contortionist roll), Only vs. Grabs
>and the SFX of certain Entangles (?)
>
> 5 Extra Limbs (represents the fact that she is "Omni Jointed")
>
>30 14d6 Entangle, Immune to Sight Sense Group; No Range (-1/2), Does
> not prevent the use of some Foci/Impairs as a Grab (-1/2), Must
> follow a sucessful Grab (-1/4), No "walls" (-1/4), 1 "Recoverable
> Charge" (self) (-1 1/4), Elastica takes all damage done to the
> Entangle (since she is the Entangle) (-1), Entangle is
> non-Persistant (-1/4)
How about +X STR Only for Grab and Hold?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 May 99 23:02:04
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: END reserves
On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:33:56 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>Hi,
>
>In my FH game, I use a dedicated END reserve for each sphere of magic. Due
>to the low costs for END reserves, combined with my magic house rule that
>prohibits the reduction of END costs for spells, this seems like a mage's
>most vulnerable target to Drains and Transfers.
>
>So here's my question. When you Drain an END reserve, are you Draining the
>current level of the reserve or the maximum level of the reserve?
Current, just like any other power - after all, Draining a stat works
on its current level.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:54:10 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
>You're playing Fantasy HERO, aren't you? :)
Off and on, the old gaming group is gettin old, we have a life now LOL.
>I was curious whether you lay out string cut to length or measure the
>character's planned movement in segments with dividers (like on those
>strategic battle maps in WWII movies) or what?
We use rulers, a string would work too, I like that idea. Segmented
movement seems like such a good idea until you use it and it makes combats
SLOOWWWWWWWWW.
>The string seems easier, but then I suspect you'd get players taking fifteen
>minutes to fiddle with their string (hehe) and figure out the most movement
>they could get. Dividers seems clunky and almost as time consuming. I can
>also see using string to set a radius to move within, but that breaks down
>when you have any character that does a lot of running (or flying) around.
So far we have only played FH like that, and you dont have as many movement
options. However it does seem to work well from other people's stories on
here.
>I understand your point with the range modifiers especially, but movement
>seems really easy with hexes on the map--you just count out your squares
>like you're playing Parcheesi. :)
Yeah but that has tactical use also (damn I couldn't quite REACH him!!!)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:32:34 -0400
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> I suppose, I just was using the logic that Comic books, books, etc in the
> large majority represent regen being from beyond 'death' and healing lost
> limbs etc. Since the purpose of the game system is to accurately represent
> the genre and source material (within game balance, thanks whoever reminded
> me of that), then the way regen is used in that source material would carry
> over to the game. Doesn't mean that was the intent of the power, but since
> it wasn't stated, I just guessed it was.
In comic books, characters rarely die; and it's a convention in many games that
PCs and NPCs never (or very rarely) are killed permanently. Perhaps the
Regeneration is used as a special effect for this rule?
The fact is, it just seems wrong to me to pay 20 points for a power that either
does not get used (because of the above genre convention) or gets used only
because I bought it (because the GM feels allowed get my character killed more
often, since he can resurrect himself). Granted, a character with Regeneration
post Death is a defense in a way, since he can walk in deadly attacks (say a 8d6
Killing Attack) that no sane character without the power would, but it seems
quite expensive for something that shouldn't happen very often.
Mathieu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:41:20 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>The fact is, it just seems wrong to me to pay 20 points for a power that
either does not get used (because of the above genre convention) or gets
used only because I bought it (because the GM feels allowed get my character
killed more often, since he can resurrect himself). Granted, a character
with Regeneration post Death is a defense in a way, since he can walk in
deadly attacks (say a 8d6 Killing Attack) that no sane character without the
power would, but it seems quite expensive for something that shouldn't
happen very often.
This power does not come up very often. The only example that I can think
of goes back a few years to when Hercules was beaten to death by the New
Masters of Evil.
I do think that it is useful to add some flavor to the game. I just
designed a new hero with this regen and told the GM that I wanted him to be
killed. I'm looking forward to seeing the faces of the other players when I
rise from the dead.
In the game there are many things we pay points for that are almost never
used. Immune to Aging is just one example. How many campaigns have spanned
eons? Not too many I would imagine.
I like the idea of having something special. My character might never get
killed, but his character concept is that if he does, he is coming back.
Mitchel Santorineos
ICQ# 22259362
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:48:28 -0700
From: "Raven" <raven@neteze.com>
Subject: Champs Page???
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEA929.E9695420
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is anyone else having problems get the Hero Games web page to load?
- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEA929.E9695420
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is anyone else having problems get the =
Hero Games=20
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- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEA929.E9695420--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:52:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
>At 04:21 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>What? No tactical map? How can you run big fights with any precision?
>>
>>I'm telling you, white board and combat string is the way to go. Chris
>>Hartjes saw my setup once and ran right out to buy his own white board.
>>Until I have some sort of holographic combat simulator that responds to my
>>alpha waves, these are my GMing tools.
>>
>>
>>] I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
>>] miniatures.
>>] As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
>>] distances involved.
>
>Precision is overrated. It's a role-playing game, not a strategy boardgame.
>The story takes precedence over mechanics in my games.
Not everyone takes that attitude, however; some of us don't see anything
about it being a role-playing game that means we don't expect consistency
from how things work, and the only guarentee of that is a regular adherance
to the mechanics. Even in a story-intensive game, I don't want how far I
can fly fluctuating to what the GM considers his 'story needs'. If he can't
tell the stories he wants within the limits of the mechanics, I'd rather he
found a better set of mechanics for his purposes than keep ignore the ones
I'm using when it's inconvenient for him.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:04:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
At 07:32 PM 5/28/1999 -0400, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
>The fact is, it just seems wrong to me to pay 20 points for a power that
either
>does not get used (because of the above genre convention) or gets used only
>because I bought it (because the GM feels allowed get my character killed
more
>often, since he can resurrect himself). Granted, a character with
Regeneration
>post Death is a defense in a way, since he can walk in deadly attacks (say
a 8d6
>Killing Attack) that no sane character without the power would, but it seems
>quite expensive for something that shouldn't happen very often.
Please pardon what may seem like a momentary non sequitur.
Ten years ago, I was in a discussion group on Star Trek, as TNG was just
in its earlier seasons. One of the big points that folks made fun of was
that any time a monster got on the Enterprise, it would attack Worf and
knock him around. The poor guy got whacked more often than Seeker.
Why? Because Worf, a Klingon, was the toughest guy on the Enterprise.
When the writers wanted to show how tough a monster was, they'd have it
attack Worf, so when he went down the audience could say, "Wow, if that
thing took out Worf, how are those puny humans going to handle it? What if
Riker had been the guy it had attacked?"
Sure, maybe this was a disadvantage for Worf -- or maybe even a
Disadvantage (Physical Limitation: "Fated to Get Attacked First by Any
Really Tough Monster," Frequent, Great). But it was a part of his being so
tough, something which also has come in handy over the past 11 years more
often than it's been a problem.
Similarly, I think it was Michael Surbrook who brought up discussion of
a cyborg character who is always the first person to get her limbs torn off
by any monster, because replacing her limbs is an easy matter. If she
wasn't a cyborg and thus didn't have replaceable parts, she probably
wouldn't get hit like that so much.
So my take on it is, don't worry about it. How many times did Duncan
MacLaod die in the course of "The Highlander" (the TV series)? I only
watched occasionally, and I must've caught at least a couple dozen,
including two or three in just one episode. And why did the writers feel
free to kill him so often? Because they could, and bring him back thirty
seconds later.
The same principle holds for PCs who can regenerate from death -- they
have this power, and the GM should feel free to kill them as often as it
seems appropriate (the longer it takes for them to recover, though, the
less often he should do this). Let it be a story element.
This is a good across-the-board rule. If a character is particularly
intelligent, the GM should put that character in situations that test his
intellectual mettle. A brick should find himself in situations that
stretch his ability to lift, push, and hit. A speedster should find
himself in battles against time. It's all a matter of putting characters
through situations that stretch them in their chosen specialties. So if a
character can't be killed, it behooves the GM to bring that character darn
close enough to make the character (and the player) appreciate it.
Of course, as you say, these characters can confidently walk into lethal
situations, knowing that they won't *truly* be killed, just as MacLaod
would occasionally do things like jump in front of a bullet to rescue his
more fragile friends (and as Amanda does on the newer spinoff). This is
definitely worth an advantage, depending of course on the lethality of the
world.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:58:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>>>IIRC, the idea that Persistent expires with the character first came up in
>>FH, 2nd edition; before that, it was a sort of GM's call. I'd say the
>>special effects of the power should determine if the Persistent wears off or
>>not. There are plenty of examples in various genres of spells and magical
>>effects outliving their castors and creators.
>>
>>I tend to agree with this, though I don't think it was ever really relevant
>>to regeneration question; what was was whether regeneration would in fact
>>counteract that condition called 'dead'. I think it was a stretch to say it
>>would, since at that point you'd be effectively arguing the Healing Aids
>>could do the same thing.
>
>I suppose, I just was using the logic that Comic books, books, etc in the
>large majority represent regen being from beyond 'death' and healing lost
>limbs etc. Since the purpose of the game system is to accurately represent
Actually, that's not even necessarily the case in comics. For example,
though both of them can take punishment that would kill a normal, if you do
sufficient damage to either Wolverine or Sabertooth of the X-books, they
die. The same is true of the Vigilante and most of the DC characters I
know who regenerate. Regeneration from death is actually more common in
certain sorts of fantasy than it is in superhero settings. The limb
regrowth is another question.
>the genre and source material (within game balance, thanks whoever reminded
>me of that), then the way regen is used in that source material would carry
>over to the game. Doesn't mean that was the intent of the power, but since
>it wasn't stated, I just guessed it was.
I think personally that you used a bad assumption in your axioms there, but
the conclusion was correct given the bad assumption. They were trying to
simulate comics...but most comic regenerators don't come back from
death...just from bad, bad injuries.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Unstoppable Immortal Entity
>The fact is, it just seems wrong to me to pay 20 points for a power that either
>does not get used (because of the above genre convention) or gets used only
>because I bought it (because the GM feels allowed get my character killed more
>often, since he can resurrect himself). Granted, a character with Regeneration
>post Death is a defense in a way, since he can walk in deadly attacks (say
a 8d6
>Killing Attack) that no sane character without the power would, but it seems
>quite expensive for something that shouldn't happen very often.
Well, that's probably why it went down to a minimum of 10 rather than 20.
Past that, my observation has been that in games where genre conventions are
encouraged but not heavily enforced, a low defense character can easily get
plenty of use out of that regeneration. In Scott Bennie's Hollywood Knights
campaign, two or three of us had regeneration (it's rather more common in
that setting because of features of the Gestalt universe) and because genre
conventions were handled with a slightly lighter hand, and because several
of us either were a bit light on resistant defense, had defenses that were
inoperative under some circumstances, or had defenses on activations (or
some combination of the above) we got a _lot_ of use out of that regeneration.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:28:38 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 04:52 PM 5/28/99 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>What? No tactical map? How can you run big fights with any precision?
>>>
>>>I'm telling you, white board and combat string is the way to go. Chris
>>>Hartjes saw my setup once and ran right out to buy his own white board.
>>>Until I have some sort of holographic combat simulator that responds to my
>>>alpha waves, these are my GMing tools.
>>>
>>>
>>>] I'm actually surprised to hear this. In my group, we only rarely use
>>>] miniatures.
>>>] As GM, I just describe the scene and approximate the
>>>] distances involved.
>>
>>Precision is overrated. It's a role-playing game, not a strategy boardgame.
>>The story takes precedence over mechanics in my games.
>
>Not everyone takes that attitude, however; some of us don't see anything
>about it being a role-playing game that means we don't expect consistency
>from how things work, and the only guarentee of that is a regular adherance
>to the mechanics. Even in a story-intensive game, I don't want how far I
>can fly fluctuating to what the GM considers his 'story needs'. If he can't
>tell the stories he wants within the limits of the mechanics, I'd rather he
>found a better set of mechanics for his purposes than keep ignore the ones
>I'm using when it's inconvenient for him.
There is an enormous difference between approximating something and
ignoring it. What you do in your games is perfectly acceptable. I am pointing
out that it is not the only way to go. I approximate distances because HERO
combat is normally quite slow. That doesn't mean that I am capricious or
arbitrary, merely that I try to keep things moving. When it becomes important
(in my estimation or the player's) to get a more accurate picture, we resort
to the maps. But for most combats, we're fully capable of doing it in our
heads.
Besides, this way, we don't have to move all the snacks and drinks out of
the way to make room for the map...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:44:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Does anyone mind if I post something kind of long?
I'm working on my Fantasy HERO religion, and I have most of the
creation mythos stuff done.
I'd like certain peopl eon this list to see it and comment, but
it's kind of long and has nothing to do with HERO mechanics.
Would anyone mind if I posted it? I'll put the adder on to the
Subject [Long Post] as well as waiting a little while for a negatory from
various people on this list.
If not, expect an info packet in the mail soon. :)
- -Jason
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
>>>Precision is overrated. It's a role-playing game, not a strategy boardgame.
>>>The story takes precedence over mechanics in my games.
>>
>>Not everyone takes that attitude, however; some of us don't see anything
>>about it being a role-playing game that means we don't expect consistency
>>from how things work, and the only guarentee of that is a regular adherance
>>to the mechanics. Even in a story-intensive game, I don't want how far I
>>can fly fluctuating to what the GM considers his 'story needs'. If he can't
>>tell the stories he wants within the limits of the mechanics, I'd rather he
>>found a better set of mechanics for his purposes than keep ignore the ones
>>I'm using when it's inconvenient for him.
>
>There is an enormous difference between approximating something and
>ignoring it. What you do in your games is perfectly acceptable. I am pointing
>out that it is not the only way to go. I approximate distances because HERO
>combat is normally quite slow. That doesn't mean that I am capricious or
>arbitrary, merely that I try to keep things moving. When it becomes important
>(in my estimation or the player's) to get a more accurate picture, we resort
>to the maps. But for most combats, we're fully capable of doing it in our
>heads.
I just think that at least with significant numbers of people and any sort
of interior area, that approximation is liable to be sloppy at best. In
some systems, where the details don't have much impact (DCH, V&V) this is
fine; in Hero it can make important differences on occasion. As I noted, I
really do want to be sure where the heck that Explosion is going to land.
On the other hand, I've also done without on occasion, so perhaps it's just
a question of degree. I just have alarm bells go off in my head when I
hear someone use the phrase "The story takes precedence over mechanics in my
games." It all too often means someone is willing to distort hell out the
situation to serve what they consider the 'needs of the story', and that's
not what I'm here to game for.
>
>Besides, this way, we don't have to move all the snacks and drinks out of
>the way to make room for the map...
But at least that way you are sure the old newspapers get moved off the
table _sometime_. :)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:52:00 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
Scott C. Nolan wrote:
> Precision is overrated. It's a role-playing game, not a
> strategy boardgame.
> The story takes precedence over mechanics in my games.
Not to start the whole gamist/simulationist versus dramatist thing because I
think I tend to enjoy aspects of all of those things, but then how do you
deal with the precision the combat system and character creation seem to
call for?
What I mean is this:
If you don't measure out range modifiers, how do they work? If you don't
measure out movement, how do you know how far to move with a half-move of 8"
as opposed to a half-move of 5"?
If you can't really tell the difference between ranges, and especially if
you can't tell the difference between movement powers, how do you know how
much to buy? If you don't know how much to buy, doesn't it quickly turn into
"I fly fast," and why should that cost any points?
It just seems to me that because of the powers being purchased so that for a
specific number of points you get a specific game effect, HERO system needs
a certain amount of precision, or it turns into some other game. Certainly
not every agent needs full stats or even needs to have specific points of
STUN--a solid hit or two should just knock them out. But I don't want a
similar attitude or effect leveled at my own player character: I'd hate to
find myself unconscious because I'd been hit enough times the GM felt I
should be, or because the scene would be more dramatic if my character were
knocked out.
I'm certainly not saying that this is how you play, or if it is how you
play, that this is bad. I don't care for it, and it seems out of whack with
how I understand the HERO system rules. So I'm curious how you build
characters and run combat. It just seems to me that if I balance point
totals (or even add the points up) during character creation, I really have
to measure movement and ranges in inches, and count STUN and END for player
characters.
So let me know how you approach this. I'm honestly interested. I just can't
see how this sort of thing works from my perspective.
grant
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:40:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Gods' Story [Very Long; Off-Topic]
Here is the mythology. I created it a few years ago for an AD&D
game. I had the religions pretty clearly defined, and the gods as well.
I tweaked some of the histories and renamed some of the gods, and gave
different explainations of what was what. I didn't include some
information, probally because I haven't decided what was what.
Excuse spelling and grammatical errors. Bear with me, it's my
first draft. More to come.
Feel free to comment at will.
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Taug is the god of Creation and Inspiration. He was the First
god. The egg from which he was hatched he made the Sun. The scales he
shed and polished with his fiery breath became the Stars. His nest he
formed into the Land. His tears became the Seas. His breath became the
Air. Where he clawed, there were Vallys. Where he rested, there were
Mountains. When he raised his wings, he blocked the Sun, and so there was
Night. Where he batted his wings there was Wind. From himself he crafted
Seven orbs, which represent the Seven planets. When he slept, all he made
grew less orderly as he dreamt of the world of magic and spirits and was
distractyed by the grandeur of the whole cosmos. When he woke, he would
restore that which was out of order back to it's natural state, and the
tides of the Sea of Chaos were pushed back once again.
Through this, he gained insight into the universe and it's deepest
secrets, and learned about much. Beyond his home, the Universe, there is
the Sea of Chaos. Beyond that, there is Void and Oblivion.
Taug was granted a Throne of Divinity by the forces of the
universe, having learned some of it's secrets. From this perch, he could
scry all that existed. It was then he sensed two murky forms within the
sea. Down from his perch he flew, braving the sea to save two beings.
For his action, he lost his Throne.
The two beings were humanoid. One, whose name was Khrymn,
appeared to be a hearty giant of a man, with bronze skin, a beard, a
barrel chest, lantern jaw, and muscles. He had a temper, favoured order
over chaos (possibly due to his ordeals in the Sea of Chaos), and he had a
haughty manner. The other, Eleil, who was more delicate, appeared to be
but a thin, and barely a man, From his back stretched two glorious
feathered wings. He was soft spoken and compassionate. The time for
introductions was brief. Both Eleil and Khrymn knew not why they were
there, or how they fell into the Sea, or where they were from. The Sea of
Chaos was mysterious in this way- causing confusion, forever changed.
There was a third from in the sea, who Taug set upon to rescue.
Her name was Rihane. She was beautiful to both Eleil and Khrymn, but only
wished for solitude so she could collect herself. Both Eleil and Khrymn
persisted, follwing her where ever she would go- Eleil to profess how
taken back he was with her beauty, Khrymn with how he wished to lie down
with her. Taug was nonplussed, unable to fully comprehend the events that
transpired, but rather disturbed by the racket after so many centuries of
silence.
Taug offered Rihane some advice. He told her to hide where they
could not find her, within the earth and the ground itself. She hid,
never to be found again. Through her act, the once barren land was given
lushness and life. Taug brought about the creation of creatures on this
planet, who in turn spawned more creatures.
Eleil and Khrymn were both disappointed. The three talked and
debated with one another. They had created animals before, but Eleil and
Khrymn dimly recalled what was known as the corporeal races- possessing
physical bodies, souls, and animating force. Eleil knew of a Land of
Souls across the sea, while Taug knew how to craft bodies for the
creatures. Khrymn cultivated and harvested the vitality for the beings
from the planet itself.
Eliel's wings were blackened by the flight. In exchange for the
souls, Eliel gave his eye- this was to keep watch over those that
would return to the Land of Souls.
The bodies were given form, animating force, vitality and their
souls, but there were like animals until Eliel shed a tear for them, in
memory of Rihane. Thus, all components were as one, and the races were
concious. Eliel had given them life, and more importantly, the ability to
bear children.
The Gods watched over the races, which consumed their respective
lives. They learned much about the beings.
As the races grew, this became a major undertaking. The Gods
called across the Sea, and from it pulled forth primal substance. They
made beings of the spirit. These races were known by many names- they
were agents of the Gods, also known as their host.
Eliel shed another tear when one lifetime had gone by. He granted
the old and infirm the ability to die. His hosts harvested their souls
and invested them back into the universe.
Taug grew weary, for now he could not sleep, so he could only hope
to one day dream. Khrymn used his hosts to allow civilization to grow.
From the Gods, the beings were taught the secrets of fire, song,
agriculture, and many other useful tools. Once, Taug grew weary, and
nealy slumbered, and the host discovered part of his dream.
There were those rebellious host who, by greedily stealing his
dream, were caught in the wash of the Sea of Chaos, and fell to the
planet. They were trapped in corporeal form, immortal, and lived about
the mortal ones. Often times, they acted like spoiled children, playing
tricks and causing trouble, for they had no recollection of who they truly
were. They had forgotten they were host. They were the Lost Ones.
Others, who had seen the dream were corrupted by it. Khrymn
fought them, and banished them to the Great Prison, fettering them within
it's depths as punishment. Some mended their ways after this event, and
Pioneered the Sea of Chaos as expolorers, while others acted as Guardians,
and others, who had turned a blind eye to the events, returned to their
duties.
While he was on the verge of conciousness, Taug had been given
divine insight. He knew that a balance needed to be struck, and was given
means to do so. Taug desired sleep. As there was a day, so there was a
night. So was the way with man and woman. They were ever connected, and
came of themselved mutually. Eliel desired comfort for his pain and
compassion that equaled his own to counter the constant death he was
forced to face. Khrymn needed an opposite to counter his anger and
ambition- one who would be his equal and combat. As Taug knew the ways of
magic, so would his opposite know the ways of technology.
From the earth, in the image of Rihane, from the soil and among
the plants, he drew clay and roots. From the blood of all mothers, he
infused the matron with life. For her, he made the moon, to light the
night. The wolves sang. Her name with Illia.
So from the seas and storms and chaos Taug drew silt and salt.
From the land he drew fire. He made this spirit fierce, unpredictable,
and skilled. He quenched the form in the Chaos itself. The sky
thundered. Her name was Karristi.
From the stars he drew their light, and deep within the earth he
drew ore, and from his own blood he worked alchemy. He gave her whispered
secrets from his dream in the language of runes and breath from the sun.
The world was changed. Her name was Xechexotl.
Taug needed to fufil a prophecy. He had to craft a Sword, a
Crown, and Armor for the Champion, who would find the Throne and make all
peaceful once again. Taug retreated to a mountain top, without
explaination. Eliel spied Illia from the highest point. Leaving this
plane, he traveled far, his wings eroding, knowing that flight would
forever be lost to him, so he could find the words and gifts to profess
his undying love.
Khrymn grew impatient. He secretly began to fortify the race of
Man, choosing them to be his champions, being suspicious of Taug and
Eliel. He annointed his most trusted host to assist him in this
undertaking.
The race of man grew stong, and expanded, ambitiously taking all
that Father Khrymn would give them. They revered him- and his ego grew.
The corporeal races waged war with one another. Man, Elf, Dwarf, and
Hobfling were now at odds.
Khrymn happened upon Karristi. Khrymn was displeased when the
stranger fought him to a stand still. Illia happened upon the scene, and
Karristi was distracted by her to the point of Khrymn gaing the upper
hand. Xechexotl tried to reason with Khrymn, but was destroyed- fling
back against a rock with her head dashed. Khrymn raped Karristi, took
Xechexotl's heart as a trophy, and stole away Illia. His host followed
him away from the sight.
Eliel returned, and was told of the war by his host. He saw
Xechexotl's corpse, which he mournfully prepared for death and buried in
the earth to return it from whence it came. Eliel shed a third tear, in
memory of those who had died in war, in memory of his lost love, and of
Xechexotl. He had lost his flight, and thought, perhaps, if he were
there, he could have prevented what transpired. He fettered himself to
the Realm of the Dead, for with the third tear he had granted the kind of
man with Rebirth, and he would judge them as they passed on.
Taug had finished his task and returned, tired from his work.
Taug was displeased with what had transpired and the petty bickering of
the races. He hatched six of the seven orbs, and the Great Dragons came
to be it's Watchers. He cleaved the land into many continents. The races
stopped fighting, and slowly began to rebuild. All were catastrophically
changed, save for the race of Man, who flourished.
Taug retired to a cave, surrounded by the many treasures that
Eliel had brought. He wept, for the knowledge and work he had done was
foolishly lost.
Karristi was angered by what had happened to her, and bore a
child, which she cast into the sea. Karristi soon gained a following of
women who shunned the society of Man. These nomads lived in the forrests,
and developed esoteric ways of surviving.
Khrymn wandered for some time, during which Illia and he had a
son, who was born stillborn. Illia sent him off to sea mournfully. Illia
bore Khrymn abother child, who was sickly and weak. He ordered his host
to cast him out into the sea. If he were to survive, then he was worthy
of his love- the child vanished in the sea without a trace. Further along
the shores of the Sea of Chaos with his troupe, they encountered the
creature of Chaos (also known as the God Slayer). It rose from the sea,
having hundred of eyes, tentacles, and pincers. It dispached many of his
troupes, and nearly killed him as he selflessly defended Illia. Khrymn
fell in combat, and was about to be devorued, when a giant creature rose
up behind the God Slayer and lifted it from the sea, grasping it and
crushing it above the waters that gave it strength.
The large creature's name was Barjus, who helped Illia nurse
Khrymn back to health. Illia and Khrymn grew fond of each other during
this time.
Khrymn and Illia bore two more children, Valerian, god of
Knighthood, Chilvery, and Valor, and Zelia, Goddess of Bards, Song, and
Festivals.
Two other Gods emerged: the Dark God of the Hunt, who reclaimed
souls and lead Eliel's host, and the Goddess of Enigmas, Mystery, Fate,
Fortune, Luck, and Destiny, who chronicles all of fate in her Great Tome.
There were three evil Gods, cast out to the sea... each finding
their place in the outer planes. One found his place with an elder Ice
Elemental who manifested from his discontent. One was reborn in a
negative plane bordering on the edge of Oblivion, and brought the Undead
and Nightmares to the world. One was found by the cast out host in the
Great Prison, and was nurtured and raised to be their leader.
>>>>
Some pronounciations:
[car iz TEA] - Emphasis on the last syllable.
[Ill-lea] - Ill and Lia, the elves know her as "Illawe" (Like Ill
Away)
[tawg] - rhymes with "dog"
[CRimn] - Like the first part of "Crimson"
[L-E-L] - Like the letters "L E L"
[Bar-juice or Barge-us] - Barjus, god of hermits, and the
redeemed. Worshiped most often by outcastes.
>>>>
Notes: Feel free to forward any questions to myself or the list.
The game takes place in The Age of Man. Elves, Dwarves, and
Hobflings are seldom seen. Man continues to expand and dwindle resources.
The three respective "evil" Gods assault man and cause discontent
among the people of it's nations. All ready, one nation has been lost to
the God of Nightmares and the Undead. A battle rages on in the Northern
Lands, where the god of Ice, Vengence, and Emotionlessness battle with the
Northen Barbarians and various number of the main continents' Naval
forces.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #363
*****************************
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Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 04:00 PM