Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 367
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 1:34 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #367
champ-l-digest Tuesday, June 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 367
In this issue:
Re: Hexless Combat
Re: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
CHAR: Afanc
Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
CHAR: Chemosit
Doesn't it stink to be cursed?
RE: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
RE: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
RE: Hexless Combat
RE: Hexless Combat
CHAR: Wu Kung Ching
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat
Jason Sullivan writes:
> On Mon, 31 May 1999, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> > I'm here to tell you about the joy that a 4'x3'white board can
> > bring to your life. It's got all the precision of mats without
> > giving up valuable table space better used for character sheets,
> > rule books, glasses and ashtrays.
>
> I think a white board approach is good for combat. A magnetic
> white board would be really neat (so you can post up various maps and what
> have you and use magnetic minature pieces to represent the characters, or
> put up dry erase hex paper).
Been there, done that. Oddly enough, I came across my old
magnetic gaming surface three weeks ago when my parents called to ask
me to clear a bunch of junk out of their attic. White boards are
*not* cheap, particularly large ones. Neither is magnetized vinyl (or
whatever the heck that stuff is).
Back when I was a teenager I played Autoduel a fair amount. We
dug up a ferrous metal sheet, laminated a paper hex map on one side
and a square map on the other, and got some magnetic plastic material
from a sign company to cut into counter-sized pieces and glue counters
to. They worked fairly well, aside from a slight (and slightly
annoying) tendency to repel each other when you tried to line them up
edge to edge. This would be less of a problem if the entire surface
was magnetic, but then you have the problem of cutting up some ferrous
material for counters.
> ...and I love little plastic animals that you buy as party favors
> in various stores.
I often wonder why we don't see more of this - plastic
miniatures, perhaps at a twice the scale usually used for lead (well,
nowadays pewter) figures? Perhaps it's because they smack too much of
"child's toy"?
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
(Not that I do much gaming at all, these days...)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:53:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Hexless Combat
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Steven J. Owens wrote:
> > ...and I love little plastic animals that you buy as party favors
> > in various stores.
>
> I often wonder why we don't see more of this - plastic
> miniatures, perhaps at a twice the scale usually used for lead (well,
> nowadays pewter) figures? Perhaps it's because they smack too much of
> "child's toy"?
SJG's Cardboard Heroes. *Those* are the wway to go.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"...Nothing is a coincidence if it happens to bolster the conclusions we
already seek. This is how we professionals discover the messages hidden in
seemingly disparate objects or events."
James Finn Garner
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:55:43 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
We tried to use magnets but they fell off the white board too often.
I picked up my 4' X 3' white board for $40 CAN [~$28 USD] at Office Depot.
Not a big expense. Like two supplements.
] Been there, done that. Oddly enough, I came across my old
] magnetic gaming surface three weeks ago when my parents called to ask
] me to clear a bunch of junk out of their attic. White boards are
] *not* cheap, particularly large ones. Neither is magnetized vinyl (or
] whatever the heck that stuff is).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:17:39 -0400
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 10:55 AM 6/1/99 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>We tried to use magnets but they fell off the white board too often.
>
>I picked up my 4' X 3' white board for $40 CAN [~$28 USD] at Office Depot.
>Not a big expense. Like two supplements.
>
>
Home Depot (or your local hardware equivalent) carries sheets of
enameled metal -- I think they're intended for appliance covers,
such as dishwashers. They're fairly cheap and make good magnetic
surfaces. I've found, however, that anything you draw on them,
regardless of marker type, is pretty permanent.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 08:13:11 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 09:39 AM 5/31/1999 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>Let me explain exactly how this works. My white board sits on my big
>painting aisle [I do more gaming than painting] so it sits vertically. Thus,
>no miniatures. I don't even own any miniatures. I let the Warhammer guys
>worry about miniatures. I use three different colours of marker. Black for
>terrain, walls and other physical features, blue for 'our team', red for
>everyone else and green for little notes and symbols showing who's bleeding,
>entangled and so on.
Hm... black, blue, red, green. Yep, that's three all right. ;-]
>Instead of counting hexes, I use the combat string. A length of string
>marked off in inches. It's very quick to measure distances for movement and
>range. Plus, it bends easily.
The only problem here is in trying to measure Turn Modes and such. It's
bad enough on a horizontal surface without hex guides, but a near-vertical
one?
Mind you, I consider this to be a relatively minor problem, compared to
going around and painting 2-meter hexes over the entire world.
(Side note: as something of a joke, I once had a supers battle take
place in a large rotunda whose floor was tiled in two-meter hexes of
alternating colors. The ironic humor was appreciated by only a couple of
the players.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:27:27 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
On 6/1/99 at 11:17 AM Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>Home Depot (or your local hardware equivalent) carries sheets of
>enameled metal -- I think they're intended for appliance covers,
>such as dishwashers. They're fairly cheap and make good magnetic
>surfaces. I've found, however, that anything you draw on them,
>regardless of marker type, is pretty permanent.
You could get a sheet of transparent mylar from an art supply store, cut it=
to fit, and tape it over the enamelled metal. Then you can use eraseable=
markers on it. One could even draw up floorplans ahead of time and tape=
'em on when needed.
Guy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:28:08 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
> (Side note: as something of a joke, I once had a supers battle take
>place in a large rotunda whose floor was tiled in two-meter hexes of
>alternating colors. The ironic humor was appreciated by only a couple of
>the players.)
I was at a friend's house once and noticed his bathroom was tiled with 1"
hex-shaped tiles...so of course we ran a Champions combat in there. :)
I had envisioned a video titled "If Life Were Like Hero" to make fun of
some of the more amusing quirks of the Hero System:
1) Character comes to door, finds it locked, shoots it once or twice with
gun until a "man sized hole" (Wile E. Coyote style silhouette) appears.
2) He runs through the house to the back yard, where the bad guys are. He
draws his gun...and instantly two-meter hexes appear on the ground.
3) Everyone turns and stares at the guy who is standing on a hex line, who
sheepishly steps to the middle of a hex.
4) Everyone stands in their hex ducking and waaving, while one person at a
time moves and shoots.
That was as far as I got...never had the ambition or the camcorder to go
any farther. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Afanc
AFANC
(ah-vahnk)
(Wales)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
55* STR 0 20- 50 tons; 11d6
8 DEX -6 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
30 CON 40 15-
30* BODY 22 15-
3 INT -7 10- PER Roll 10-
5 EGO -10 10- ECV: 2
30 PRE 20 15- PRE Attack: 6d6
0 COM -5 9-
20 PD 18 Total: 20 PD / 8 PDr
12 ED 6 Total: 12 ED / 8 EDr
2 SPD 2 Phases: 6, 12
10 REC 4
60 END 0
60* STUN 10 *Includes modifiers for growth
Total Characteristics Cost: 94
Movement: Running: 0"
Swimming: 3" / 6"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
8 Combat Skill Levels: +4 with Bite
Afanc Powers:
60 Giant Size: Growth: 9 Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2)
+45 STR, +9 BODY, +9 STUN, -5 DCV, +6 to PER vs, +4" Reach, -9" KB
36 Bite: HKA: 2d6 (4d6 with STR), +1 STUN (+1/2), Reduced
Penetration (-1/4)
8 Thick Hide: Damage Resistance: 8 DEF
- -12" Running: -6" (total 0")
1 Swimming: +1" (Total 3")
25 Sense air/water currents: Spatial Awareness
126 Total Powers & Skills Cost
220 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
25 Distinctive Features: Immense worm-like water monster
Physical Limitation:
10 Cannot leap
15 No fine manipulation
Psychological Limitation:
15 Always hungry, goes out of its way to find food (C, S)
15 Protective of it territory (C, S)
65 Experience
220 Total Disadvantage Points
Appearance:
The afanc is a large worm-like creature. It doesn't have any visible
eyes, and its mouth is filled with large, sharp teeth. A fully gown afanc
is a good 60' long and over 6 wide.
Ecology:
An afanc lives in lakes, usually deep lakes. They prey upon fish as well
as things swimming in their lake and animals close to shore. The afanc is
usually a solitary beast.
Motivations:
Normal animal motivations. The afanc seems to be constantly hungry and is
active at all times.
Combat Techniques:
The afanc will lie in wait near the surface of its lake, waiting for any
possible prey to approach. It will then rear up and lash out to bite at a
target. If wounded or hard pressed, an afanc will retreat back under the
water's surface.
Other Names: Addanc (ah-thanhnk)
Rumors:
Rumors abound about the afanc. Some say is a giant beaver, not a worm
(and argument supported by the fact that the modern Welsh word for beaver
is very close to afanc). Others say that the afanc is invisible and can
kill with its gaze. It is also said that the afanc guards treasures at
the bottom of its lake.
Designer's Notes:
The afanc is a creature I first encountered in Susan Cooper's "The Dark is
Rising Series". There, it was presented as a more traditional lake
monster. This version is taken from "GURPS: Fantasy Bestiary".
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"...Nothing is a coincidence if it happens to bolster the conclusions we
already seek. This is how we professionals discover the messages hidden in
seemingly disparate objects or events."
James Finn Garner
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
Taking a topic started from Grant Enfield's comments...
> I see HERO system as a vast improvement over class and level-based systems.
> [...]
> On the other hand, I get offended when people suggest that HERO has too much
> mechanics or that games should be simpler.
>
> Sure HERO could use an overhaul. Why have figured characteristics? Why have
> skills tied to stats? Why have powers like Ego Attack that cost far less
> than they should? Why have Images, Invisibility, Darkness, and Change
> Environment all work differently? If it's about point balance, none of these
> things make any sense.
....off in an other direction entirely.
Though it's not about point balance, points do matter, because
it's largely about consistency.
Let's face it, a game system, any game system, is no more than an
aid, a device to assist the game master and players in creating a
shared experience. Some of that assistance is in adding a random
element (the dice), some of it is in helping achieve consistency (the
rules), some of it is in giving us a framework to build on, some of it
is in (in theory :-) reducing the amount of work (background material,
characters and scenarios).
A good GM and/or players can make a great game, a bad GM and/or
players can destroy any game. Regardless of game system. But a game
system can help or hinder.
> But I think HERO's fundamental concepts are right on.
I agree; the most fundamental concept that Hero brings to the
gaming table is the concept of thinking consciously and systematically
about the rules and game mechanics.
Lamentably, this sometimes leads to thinking predominantly about
the rules and gaming mechanics. In the best of games, it's still hard
to escape the omnipresent awareness of the game mechanics. In some
ways this is like the trick of vision that lets a two-dimensional line
drawing "snap" into perspective as a three-dimensional cube - and once
it's done so, it's extremely difficult for the viewer to let go of
that awareness and see it as only lines.
Another disadvantage, one we're all aware of, is that the
visibility of the game mechanic scares off many experienced gamers,
gamers who are more interested in the experience of gaming; the
suspension of disbelief, the drama of role-playing, as well as
inexperienced gamers who wince at the obvious committment of time and
energy required (I know if I'd first encountered Champions last week,
my reaction would have been one I've voiced far too often lately -
"this looks like it'll take up far too many brain cells.")
The problem is, not everybody wants to get hip deep in the
mechanics and the metarules. Until the Hero system provides some sort
of intermediate step, I suspect it will remain a "niche" product,
appealing strongly to one group, but forever inaccessible to the
mainstream of roleplaying, let alone the mainstream in general.
The Hero system needs to meet people halfway. The trick is to do
it without losing the cadre of experienced Hero gamers who will help
new players get into the game. I have seen little of Fuzion. What I
have seen is that it has excellent production values and attention to
the experience. This is part of what it will take to succeed in the
market. But the perception I'm getting is that Fuzion lost the
existing customer base.
Perhaps in the next generation products from Hero, the two
systems can grow towards each other. Fuzion in gaining more depth,
more subtlety, resolving conflicts with the Hero rules. The Hero
rules in in simplifying and consolidating some critical areas,
developing more accessibility.
What is needed is a much simpler way to simply *play* the game,
without needing to grasp the underlying complexity. Players who are
new to the gaming experience, new to the genre, need to be able to
simply pick up a character, pick a few blocks of powers off a menu,
and start playing. I think we can achieve this by working with the
basic tools that the Hero system gives us; we can use the rules Hero
provides to build a game system that is simple and playable.
Build a set of "power packages" at a higher abstraction level
than the full system. Design them for simplicity of play as well as
simplicity of character generation. Let new players build characters
according to the idea of the power or character (not the underlying
mechanic) but express those powers in the full rule system, so
experienced players and GMs can build and run characters in the same
world without losing any connection.
What I have in mind is building power blocks in the same fashion
as "growth", "shrinking", "density increase", and "desolid". Each of
these powers are in fact a package of several different rule effects
grouped around a central mechanic. For these powers, we accept that
to adequately reflect the genre and simplify the game, we group the
effects together in a package. Build additional packages, in a range of
values and levels of effect, reflecting all of the traditional powers
in the genre.
To start, define the appropriate power levels. I would prefer to
design the power levels around observable effects - e.g.:
"normal" - guns are damned deadly
heroic - gunshot wounds are dangerous but can be weathered
cinematic - "It's only a flesh wound, put me back in coach",
superheroic - a high roll from a "serious" firearm (.45, military
rifle, etc) is dangerous, but the average character
can gut out small arms fire.
high-power - average character can walk through a hail of conventional
small arms fire without worrying
From there, calculate appropriate values (e.g. if a .45 does
1d6+2 Killing, and the stun multiplier is 1d6-1, then an average
attack will do (3.5+2)*2.5=13.75 stun. A lucky roll will max out at
40 stun. For a superheroic game the "average" character needs enough
resistant defenses and CON to absorb most attacks and avoid being
stunned by all but the luckiest rolls (20-25rPD/rED and 15-20 CON).
For a high-powered game the average character needs enough extra
defenses that even a maxed-out roll won't risk stunning and will
probably only chisel away at his Stun (5 or so points through).
However, let's say we assume the Champions standard levels (which
as I vaguely recall seem to be about 25 def, 4-6 SPD, 10d6) for the
sake of discussion. Now let's build some power packages.
Speed, for example; here we can choose the design carefully to
simplify play as well. Untrained normals have 2 SPD and so do "blank"
supercharacters. We want to keep things a bit simple, so let's say we
design 30, 60 and 90 point packages.
Fast, 30 points, +2 (4) SPD, +5 DEX, +2 CV, +1 Dex Skill Roll.
Supers on average move twice as fast as untrained normals.
Almost all supers buy this package.
Really Fast, 60 points, +4 (6) SPD, +10 Dex, +4 CV, +2 Dex Skill Roll.
Really fast supers move three times as fast as untrained normals.
Super Fast, 90 points, +6 (8) SPD, +15 Dex, +6 CV, +3 Dex Skill Roll.
Superfast supers move four times as fast as untrained normals.
I'm not entirely happy with how the numbers work out for these
(maybe 20/40/60 would work better, or maybe even 20/50/95). But
still, they simplify things greatly. Typically everybody moves on
even phases; most characters get phases distributed evenly across the
turn. Custom-built characters will move differently, but in a "newbie
friendly" game combat should run much more smoothly. Save the
fully-blown, custom-designed characters for later in the campaign.
Also note that I simply listed one combat value. 90% of the
time, characters have OCV and DCV either the same value or within 1
point of the same value. To simplify, just list the one value as in
practice. Only note the distinction between offensive and defensive
values when it matters - for specific maneuvers and specific skill
levels or power combinations.
This is only a start, of course. It'll take a lot of work to get
to the finish line, but ultimately it could decouple the "Hero Game
Design System" from the Hero Game. New players (and new GMs) could
simply pick up power package guides and experienced players and GMs
could gradually show them how to build fully detailed characters.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:13:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Chemosit
CHEMOSIT
(Africa)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
30 STR 15 15- 1600kg; 6d6
20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7 / DCV: 7
20 CON 20 13-
15 BODY 8 12-
7 INT -3 10- PER Roll 11-
5 EGO -10 10- ECV: 2
15/30 PRE 5 12-/15- PRE Attack: 3d6/6d6
0 COM -5 9-
6 PD 1 Total: 8 PD / 2 PDr
4 ED 0 Total: 6 ED / 2 EDr
3 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
9 REC 0
40 END 0
37 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 79
Movement: Running: 9" / 18"
Swimming: 0"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
10 Combat Skill Levels: +2 with HTH
Chemosit Powers:
7 Great Size: Growth: 1 Level, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2)
+5 STR, +1 BODY, +1 STUN, -1" KB
20 Bite: HKA: 1d6+1 (2 1/2d6 with STR), END 2
8 Claws: HKA: 1/2d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced Penetration (-1/4),
END 1
8 Howling: +15 PRE, Create fear only (-1/2), Incantations: Must
howl (-1/2)
6 Tough Hide: Armor: +2 DEF
6 Running: +3" (Total 9"), END 2
- -2 Swimming: -2" (total 0")
Background Skills:
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Stealth 13-
2 Survival 11-
74 Total Powers & Skills Cost
153 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
20 Distinctive Features: Half-gorilla, half-hyena (NC)
20 Psychological Limitation: Totally inimical to humans (C, T)
15 Reputation: Eater of humans (ext) 11-
23 Experience
153 Total Disadvantage Points
Appearance:
The chemosit has a horrid appearance, combining the lower body of a hyena
with the chest, arms and head of a great ape. The claws and teeth of the
chemosit are very sharp and its jaws are very strong.
Ecology:
The chemosit lives in trees, and prey on anything they can catch. They
seem to consider humans delicacy and will not hesitate to attack and
devour a lone human (or a small group). They will often haunt a village,
taking a fresh victim each night.
Motivations:
The chemosit seems to be totally inimical to humans. Other than that,
they have normal animal motivations.
Combat Techniques:
Chemosit prefer to leap down on their victims from trees, grappling and
then biting. If that can successfully grab someone, the chemosit will
usually try to bite into the skull, trying to get at the tasty (to the
chemosit) brain.
Other Names: None
Rumors: None
Designer's Notes:
The creature is taken from "GURPS: Fantasy Bestiary". It would make an
excellent minion for an evil sorcerer. By changing the lower half of the
chemosit, one could creature an appropriate monster for any other local
that also has primates.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"...Nothing is a coincidence if it happens to bolster the conclusions we
already seek. This is how we professionals discover the messages hidden in
seemingly disparate objects or events."
James Finn Garner
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Doesn't it stink to be cursed?
A character in my Fantasy HERO game has been cursed with
extraordinary luck (this is a starting Player Character).
He was the very handsome (COM 21) son of a local merchant family
who took a horse and some supplies to travel and seek adventure. It was
at a near by duchy that he scaled high walls to consumate his passions
after meeting with an equally stunning woman. His bliss was cut short by
her father's appearence; it was revealed that she was the Duke's daughter.
He managed to escape by the "skin of his teeth." However, the
fates were not kind. The duchy's preist called on the pantheon for
"divine retribution." It came in the form of extreme Luck- astounding
Luck- Luck that he would push, and in that huburis, he would fail and meet
an untimely doom.
Aside from making him exceptionally conspicious and boosting his
ego (not EGO) to insane proportions, he will also "fall into" odd or
adventuresome situations (he's living in "Interesting Times") as a
Phsyical Limitation.
Now, I was thinking about this Luck. I all ready have the power
set constructed (various OCV and RSR levels with Activation and Luck with
additional Luck that aids himself only [with a -1/2 limitation] and has
activation rolls).
I was thinking, would it be wise to add additional Limitations?
Things like: Ineffective on Holy Ground, Does not work versus the four
Pantheonistic Preists or Devout Worshippers of Such, or Does not work
versus Nobility of Duchy (and those sent to Hunt him)...
Any suggestions on what you think is appropiate or the point
values?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:16:55 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
I think this is a good idea. If Hero were to pump out some 'first adventure'
genre books, this would definitely be a valuable addition. For instance, a
package for your first supers game would have the adventure itself, a couple
of maps, walk-throughs for combat and other game mechanics, some pre-made
characters and a picklist to build your own character without any
significant math.
Mainly, I like this because it doesn't involve 'dumbing down' the Hero
system like Fuzion. It merely provides a comfort zone for the newbie.
] -----Original Message-----
] From: Steven J. Owens [mailto:puff@netcom.com]
] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 12:03 PM
] To: enfield@asu.edu
] Cc: hero-l@omg.org
] Subject: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
]
]
]
] Taking a topic started from Grant Enfield's comments...
]
] > I see HERO system as a vast improvement over class and
] level-based systems.
] > [...]
] > On the other hand, I get offended when people suggest that
] HERO has too much
] > mechanics or that games should be simpler.
] >
] > Sure HERO could use an overhaul. Why have figured
] characteristics? Why have
] > skills tied to stats? Why have powers like Ego Attack that
] cost far less
] > than they should? Why have Images, Invisibility, Darkness,
] and Change
] > Environment all work differently? If it's about point
] balance, none of these
] > things make any sense.
]
] ....off in an other direction entirely.
]
] Though it's not about point balance, points do matter, because
] it's largely about consistency.
]
] Let's face it, a game system, any game system, is no more than an
] aid, a device to assist the game master and players in creating a
] shared experience. Some of that assistance is in adding a random
] element (the dice), some of it is in helping achieve consistency (the
] rules), some of it is in giving us a framework to build on, some of it
] is in (in theory :-) reducing the amount of work (background material,
] characters and scenarios).
]
] A good GM and/or players can make a great game, a bad GM and/or
] players can destroy any game. Regardless of game system. But a game
] system can help or hinder.
]
] > But I think HERO's fundamental concepts are right on.
]
] I agree; the most fundamental concept that Hero brings to the
] gaming table is the concept of thinking consciously and systematically
] about the rules and game mechanics.
]
] Lamentably, this sometimes leads to thinking predominantly about
] the rules and gaming mechanics. In the best of games, it's still hard
] to escape the omnipresent awareness of the game mechanics. In some
] ways this is like the trick of vision that lets a two-dimensional line
] drawing "snap" into perspective as a three-dimensional cube - and once
] it's done so, it's extremely difficult for the viewer to let go of
] that awareness and see it as only lines.
]
] Another disadvantage, one we're all aware of, is that the
] visibility of the game mechanic scares off many experienced gamers,
] gamers who are more interested in the experience of gaming; the
] suspension of disbelief, the drama of role-playing, as well as
] inexperienced gamers who wince at the obvious committment of time and
] energy required (I know if I'd first encountered Champions last week,
] my reaction would have been one I've voiced far too often lately -
] "this looks like it'll take up far too many brain cells.")
]
] The problem is, not everybody wants to get hip deep in the
] mechanics and the metarules. Until the Hero system provides some sort
] of intermediate step, I suspect it will remain a "niche" product,
] appealing strongly to one group, but forever inaccessible to the
] mainstream of roleplaying, let alone the mainstream in general.
]
] The Hero system needs to meet people halfway. The trick is to do
] it without losing the cadre of experienced Hero gamers who will help
] new players get into the game. I have seen little of Fuzion. What I
] have seen is that it has excellent production values and attention to
] the experience. This is part of what it will take to succeed in the
] market. But the perception I'm getting is that Fuzion lost the
] existing customer base.
]
] Perhaps in the next generation products from Hero, the two
] systems can grow towards each other. Fuzion in gaining more depth,
] more subtlety, resolving conflicts with the Hero rules. The Hero
] rules in in simplifying and consolidating some critical areas,
] developing more accessibility.
]
] What is needed is a much simpler way to simply *play* the game,
] without needing to grasp the underlying complexity. Players who are
] new to the gaming experience, new to the genre, need to be able to
] simply pick up a character, pick a few blocks of powers off a menu,
] and start playing. I think we can achieve this by working with the
] basic tools that the Hero system gives us; we can use the rules Hero
] provides to build a game system that is simple and playable.
]
] Build a set of "power packages" at a higher abstraction level
] than the full system. Design them for simplicity of play as well as
] simplicity of character generation. Let new players build characters
] according to the idea of the power or character (not the underlying
] mechanic) but express those powers in the full rule system, so
] experienced players and GMs can build and run characters in the same
] world without losing any connection.
]
] What I have in mind is building power blocks in the same fashion
] as "growth", "shrinking", "density increase", and "desolid". Each of
] these powers are in fact a package of several different rule effects
] grouped around a central mechanic. For these powers, we accept that
] to adequately reflect the genre and simplify the game, we group the
] effects together in a package. Build additional packages, in
] a range of
] values and levels of effect, reflecting all of the traditional powers
] in the genre.
]
] To start, define the appropriate power levels. I would prefer to
] design the power levels around observable effects - e.g.:
]
] "normal" - guns are damned deadly
] heroic - gunshot wounds are dangerous but can be weathered
] cinematic - "It's only a flesh wound, put me back in coach",
] superheroic - a high roll from a "serious" firearm (.45, military
] rifle, etc) is dangerous, but the average character
] can gut out small arms fire.
] high-power - average character can walk through a hail
] of conventional
] small arms fire without worrying
]
] From there, calculate appropriate values (e.g. if a .45 does
] 1d6+2 Killing, and the stun multiplier is 1d6-1, then an average
] attack will do (3.5+2)*2.5=13.75 stun. A lucky roll will max out at
] 40 stun. For a superheroic game the "average" character needs enough
] resistant defenses and CON to absorb most attacks and avoid being
] stunned by all but the luckiest rolls (20-25rPD/rED and 15-20 CON).
] For a high-powered game the average character needs enough extra
] defenses that even a maxed-out roll won't risk stunning and will
] probably only chisel away at his Stun (5 or so points through).
]
] However, let's say we assume the Champions standard levels (which
] as I vaguely recall seem to be about 25 def, 4-6 SPD, 10d6) for the
] sake of discussion. Now let's build some power packages.
]
] Speed, for example; here we can choose the design carefully to
] simplify play as well. Untrained normals have 2 SPD and so do "blank"
] supercharacters. We want to keep things a bit simple, so let's say we
] design 30, 60 and 90 point packages.
]
] Fast, 30 points, +2 (4) SPD, +5 DEX, +2 CV, +1 Dex Skill Roll.
] Supers on average move twice as fast as untrained normals.
] Almost all supers buy this package.
]
] Really Fast, 60 points, +4 (6) SPD, +10 Dex, +4 CV, +2
] Dex Skill Roll.
] Really fast supers move three times as fast as
] untrained normals.
]
] Super Fast, 90 points, +6 (8) SPD, +15 Dex, +6 CV, +3
] Dex Skill Roll.
] Superfast supers move four times as fast as
] untrained normals.
]
]
] I'm not entirely happy with how the numbers work out for these
] (maybe 20/40/60 would work better, or maybe even 20/50/95). But
] still, they simplify things greatly. Typically everybody moves on
] even phases; most characters get phases distributed evenly across the
] turn. Custom-built characters will move differently, but in a "newbie
] friendly" game combat should run much more smoothly. Save the
] fully-blown, custom-designed characters for later in the campaign.
]
] Also note that I simply listed one combat value. 90% of the
] time, characters have OCV and DCV either the same value or within 1
] point of the same value. To simplify, just list the one value as in
] practice. Only note the distinction between offensive and defensive
] values when it matters - for specific maneuvers and specific skill
] levels or power combinations.
]
] This is only a start, of course. It'll take a lot of work to get
] to the finish line, but ultimately it could decouple the "Hero Game
] Design System" from the Hero Game. New players (and new GMs) could
] simply pick up power package guides and experienced players and GMs
] could gradually show them how to build fully detailed characters.
]
] Steven J. Owens
] puff@netcom.com
]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:26:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: RE: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Brian Wawrow wrote:
> I think this is a good idea. If Hero were to pump out some 'first adventure'
> genre books, this would definitely be a valuable addition. For instance, a
> package for your first supers game would have the adventure itself, a couple
> of maps, walk-throughs for combat and other game mechanics, some pre-made
> characters and a picklist to build your own character without any
> significant math.
>
> Mainly, I like this because it doesn't involve 'dumbing down' the Hero
> system like Fuzion. It merely provides a comfort zone for the newbie.
This would be great for an "on line" publication (wither .html or
.PDF).
...perhaps we could plead to the Gods of HERO that be to publish
this on their web site? (All though, it might be "too huge.")
In fact, I think it would be an excellent idea if a small group of
us were to get together and start whacking at this project like a bunch of
crazed monkies with baseball bats chasing after a pinata filled with
bananas.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:32:33 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
At 10:27 AM 6/1/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>
>Most of the time, I am a rabid user of battlemats, be it for Fantasy Hero,
>Champions, or whatever.
>
>However, for my GenCon game (Psi Hero), where we don't want combat taking
>up tons of time, we keep everything in our heads, supplemented by non-scale
>drawings of what the battlefield looks like. However, we /don't/ fudge
>distances, scale, movement, etc., in order to achieve our "story goals".
>The story /is/ more important than game mechanics, but a story has to be
>consistent, and that won't happen if the GM's screw with basic mechanics
>like distance.
I think I pretty consistently said the same thing.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:18:01 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: RE: Hexless Combat
>I think I pretty consistently said the same thing.
Then, we would be in agreement. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:33:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Wu Kung Ching
WU KUNG CHING
(China)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
23* STR 3 14- 600kg; 4 1/2d6
15 DEX 15 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
20 CON 20 13-
20* BODY 16 13-
7 INT -3 10- PER Roll 10-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
0 COM -5 9-
10 PD 7 Total: 13 PD / 3 PDr
8 ED 4 Total: 11 ED / 3 EDr
3 SPD 5 Phases: 4, 8, 12
8 REC 0
40 END 0
40* STUN 3 *Includes modifiers for growth
Total Characteristics Cost: 76
Movement: Flight: 4" / 8"
Running: 8" / 16"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
4 Combat Skill Levels: +2 with Bite
Wu Kung Ching Powers:
13 Great Size: Growth: Two Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always on (-1/2)
+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, -1 DCV, +1 PER roll against
22 Bite: HKA: 1d6 (2d6 with STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2), END 2
24 Venom: RKA: 1d6, +1 STUN (+1/2), NND [DEF: appropriate immunity,
alien metabolism or antivenin] (+1), Does BODY (+1), 0 END (+1/2),
Linked to Bite HKA (-1/2), Bite HKA must do Body (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)
9 Thick Hide: Armor: 3 DEF
20 Mist Body: Desoldification (affected by wind, fire and light based
attacks), One charge of 10 minutes (recoverable) (-1/4), Cannot
assume this form in high winds (-1/4), Not through airtight (-1/4)
43 Venom: RKA: 1d6, +1 STUN (+1/2), NND [DEF: holding one's breath
*and* closing one's eyes] (+1), Does BODY (+1), 0 END (+1/2),
Continuous (+1), AoE: 'Megahex' (+3/4), Linked to Mist Body
Desolid (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)
22 Mist Body: Darkness: 2" radius, vs Sight Group, 0 END (+1/2),
Linked to Mist Body Desolid (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)
5 Flight: 4", Linked to Mist Body Desolid (-1/2)
4 Running: +2: (8" total), END 2
Background Skills:
3 Stealth 12-
5 Tracking 11-
174 Total Powers & Skills Cost
250 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
25 Distinctive Features: Giant black centipede
Physical Limitation:
10 Cannot leap
15 No fine manipulation
Psychological Limitation:
15 Always hungry, goes out of its way to find food (C, S)
15 Dislikes direct sunlight (C, S)
5 Loves grain-cakes soaked in wine (U, M)
90 Experience
250 Total Disadvantage Points
Appearance:
A wu kung ching is a gigantic centipede, some 8' long or so. It is a
unique creature (at least in the myths), although a Game Master can make
this into an entire species.
Ecology:
The wu kung ching lives in caves, forests, jungles and swamps. It does
not like light and avoids direct sunlight. Active at all hours, the wu
kung ching will not hesitate to attack anything smaller than itself, as it
is always hungry. It cannot really be reasoned with, but can be kept from
attacking if given wine-soaked grain cakes.
Motivations:
Typical animal motivations. The wu kung ching is always hungry and is
driven by a desire to find food.
Combat Techniques:
The wu kung ching normally attacks with a venomous bite. If pressed by
multiple enemies, it will transform into a large black poisonous cloud.
This cloud will injure those who breathe it or those who allow it to get
into their eyes. The creature will try and remain centered on a potential
victim(s), although it will drift upwards if under attack. The wu kung
ching cannot transform in high winds.
Other Names: None
Rumors: None.
Designer's Notes:
This creature was found in "GURPS: Fantasy Bestiary". I have not found
this creature anywhere else. Note that the creature's venomous bite and
poison cloud form could prove to be very lethal to a party of Fantasy Hero
characters. Game Masters should sue this creature with caution.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"...Nothing is a coincidence if it happens to bolster the conclusions we
already seek. This is how we professionals discover the messages hidden in
seemingly disparate objects or events."
James Finn Garner
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #367
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:10 PM