Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 370
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 1:12 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #370
champ-l-digest Wednesday, June 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 370
In this issue:
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 06:51:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 08:21 AM 6/2/1999 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>as posted in the AOL Hero board
>----------------------------------------------------
>1. This list is based on my final draft manuscript, and the editing process
>may ::sigh:: result in changes which would invalidate items on this list.
>2. #1 is NOT, let me repeat NOT, to be taken as an excuse to bombard me,
or,
>more importantly, the Hero Games staff, with suggestions or complaints
>regarding something you don't like. We already had an incredibly lengthy
>period of comment and input (and once again, my thanks to all who
>participated); at this point we need to concentrate on simply getting the
>book finished. :) Of course, feel free to discuss things here in this forum
>if you'd enjoy
>doing so.
Well, let's all take Steve up on this last part, shall we? :-]
>Powers: Aid now costs 10 points per die. HA is 5 Active Points per die
with
>a mandatory Limitation (it's what it always was -- a Limited type of STR,
>really -- broken out into its own category for ease of conception and
play).
>Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs for
>Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups at their
>base level. Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
>not Phases. One new Power, Healing. Regeneration folded into Healing;
>Instant Change folded into Transform. Substantial expansion of Transform to
>answer many (I'd say "all," but I'm not going to kid myself) of the
questions
>surrounding that Power. A general expansion of most of the Powers to do the
>same thing and provide a lot more options (either as base rules, or as
>Adders/Advantages). Duplication and Multiform revised to make them easier to
>use (and, hopefully, more "player friendly" without being unbalancing).
>Expansion of Change Environment to allow minor combat effects.
I'm ambivalent about the current construction of HA, but I've discussed
my ideas on that at great length (basically I wanted it to be 5 pts per
die, but with some of the characteristics of Energy Blast at its base).
I also would've liked to see some expansion of Entangle to create
basic-function objects like tables, chairs, bridges, and so forth.
An adjustment of the cost and structure of Telekinesis (making the cost
1:1, and eliminating the free Energy Blast) would have been welcome as
well. Without this, I will still be unable to play two once-favorite PCs
who are primarily telekinetics.
>Power Modifiers: More discussion of and options for Advantages and
>Limitations. A new Advantage, MegaScale, to allow Movement Powers and other
>abilities to work over vast ranges. Boostable Charges and Fuel Charges
>options for Charges. The "Great Linked Debate" put to rest (but no doubt
>leading to round 2 :) ).
MegaScale ought to be an interesting item for speedsters. ;-]
>Disadvantages: Expansion of several, including Dependence, Distinctive
>Features, and Rivalry. A new Social Limitation, into which Secret ID and
>Public ID are folded.
I think this will mean that one can scale how serious one is about one's
Secret Identity. Excellent! :-]
>If I may clarify, what we've done with Talents is make them buildable with
>either Powers or Skills. The Talents list becomes something that a GM (or an
>author) creates for a given campaign. We've included the 4th Edition Talents
>list as an example. Essentially, making something a Talent allows "ordinary"
>characters to buy Powers that the GM feels should be accessible to them in
>the campaign; or, in the case of Skills, it makes a Skill something
>unusual. A working rule we suggest is to make each Talent unique in the
>campaign; that is, once one player-character has a particular Talent, no
>other player-character can buy it (this is an optional rule, of course, and
>shouldn't apply to all campaigns).
This will be quite interesting. It changes (or perhaps clarifies) the
concept of Talents, without changing the structure.
>Also, one other thing that I particularly like in the 5th Edition: We made
>all the Enhanced Senses buildable. So now there's a huge range of possible
>senses you can build.
Now, this I like very much! I'd like to see what it consists of
specifically, but it looks like this will make for some very distinctive
characters in terms of sensory enhancement! :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:58:54 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>Also, one other thing that I particularly like in the 5th Edition: We made
>>all the Enhanced Senses buildable. So now there's a huge range of possible
>>senses you can build.
>
> Now, this I like very much! I'd like to see what it consists of
>specifically, but it looks like this will make for some very distinctive
>characters in terms of sensory enhancement! :-]
I'm looking forward to seeing this one too. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:21:09 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 09:42 AM 6/2/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>MegaScale sounds interesting; I'll have to see it to know if I'll like it.
>Maybe it will finally let you build an interplanetary teleport right. The
>charge options sound promising; I'll be very pleased if something helps
>you build an air supply that lasts an hour or so.
I'm guessing it's adapted from, or at least similar to, the "megahex"
system from Star Hero. If this is the case, it probably only covers
distance, not time, mass, density, temperature or other measurable factors.
BobG and I discussed Star Hero's magahex system last year in connection
with TUV (though I don't know if it was included in the final edit) and I
used it to build some sensor probes for a Star Hero game. IIRC, it boiled
down to +1 per increase in scale:
Kilohex scale = 1000" = +1
Megahex scale = 1,000,000" = +2
Gigahex scale... you get the idea
The potential for abuse is immense, unless you carefully control what the
Increased Scale Advantage can be used for. But if you gotta have weapons
that can dish out damage at intergalactic distances, or ships that can
teleport to the Andromeda Galaxy...zetahex (10^21) and yottahex (10^24) are
+7 and +8, respectively. :)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:32:40 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
[Details Snipped]
Thanks for posting this, Guy. To the two Steves: It sounds great. I can't
wait.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
While I would like to see all of the changes in their completely
written up form before the book comes out, I know that is not going to
happen. It would be nice if the dozens of experts on this list could
help with the "editing", though. I must ask about these:
> Instant Change folded into Transform.
Does this mean that the manuscript has power categories and Instant
Change is a special form of Transform? Transform explicitly use to say
that you could not Transform yourself. Will Instant Change cost more
for characters with higher BODY scores?
> Duplication and Multiform revised to make them
> easier to use (and, hopefully, more "player friendly" without being
> unbalancing).
How? There have been as many proposed ways to do this as there are
posters to the list. And these powers change with each edition. How?
> Expansion of Change Environment to allow minor combat effects.
Hurray!
No comment about Entangle. I hope it was greatly expanded to include
an explanation for creating stuff. When this was going around a year
ago, I liked the Create Object power which cost 4 CP/BODY and 6 CP/DEF.
Being able to create something from nothing is the kludgiest part of
the HERO system. You have to use Transform and it costs just as much
to create a pile of dirt as it costs to create an bomb shelter of
titanium steel.
> Power Modifiers:
No mention of "Advantaged" or "Enhanced" here. Bummer.
> Disadvantages: A new Social Limitation, into which Secret ID
> and Public ID are folded.
Hurray!
> A working rule we suggest is to make each Talent unique in the
> campaign; that is, once one player-character has a particular Talent,
> no other player-character can buy it (this is an optional rule, of
> course, and shouldn't apply to all campaigns).
Ick. I don't even like the idea that you suggest this in the book.
Some player will complain: "I'm double-jointed, how can that villain be
double-jointed." Please, please, please, pretty please remove that
sentense from the manuscript.
Joe
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:40:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> While I would like to see all of the changes in their completely
> written up form before the book comes out, I know that is not going to
> happen. It would be nice if the dozens of experts on this list could
> help with the "editing", though. I must ask about these:
>
> > Instant Change folded into Transform.
>
> Does this mean that the manuscript has power categories and Instant
> Change is a special form of Transform? Transform explicitly use to say
> that you could not Transform yourself. Will Instant Change cost more
> for characters with higher BODY scores?
You're not Transforming yourself, you're Transforming your clothing. If
you want to 'transform' yourself, use Shapeshift.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"I hope next time when we meet, we won't be fighting each other.
Instead we will be drinking tea together."
from _Rumble in the Bronx_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:02:55 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Thanks for the post Guy. It was great. I am trying to wait as patiently as
possible. All the changes look GREAT!!
Maybe I am dense, but I have a couple of questions though:
1) Senses are buildable? What does this mean?
2) Power Skill...Uh? Does this mean each Power will have a skill or.....
Sorry...I must need more coffee....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:08:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Instant Change
On this 5th edition thing...
Isn't there a difference between
Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
in the all-together ?
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:20:56 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 07:37 AM 6/2/99 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> Power Modifiers:
>
>No mention of "Advantaged" or "Enhanced" here. Bummer.
>
Yeah, I'd like to see this given some sort of official recognition. Yes,
this is an easy one to abuse, but perhaps that's why it merits some
attention. I Occasionally, it's the only way of building something right.
>
>> A working rule we suggest is to make each Talent unique in the
>> campaign; that is, once one player-character has a particular Talent,
>> no other player-character can buy it (this is an optional rule, of
>> course, and shouldn't apply to all campaigns).
>
>Ick. I don't even like the idea that you suggest this in the book.
>Some player will complain: "I'm double-jointed, how can that villain be
>double-jointed." Please, please, please, pretty please remove that
>sentense from the manuscript.
>
It seems to be phrased as more of a suggestion than a rule, but it does
seem prone to misunderstanding. I hope it's phrased very tentatively.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:26:37 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>No mention of "Advantaged" or "Enhanced" here. Bummer.
>>
>
>Yeah, I'd like to see this given some sort of official recognition. Yes,
>this is an easy one to abuse, but perhaps that's why it merits some
>attention. I Occasionally, it's the only way of building something right.
Gotta disagree...I like the philosophy of building the potential maximum,
then limiting to achieve the desired effect. When a custom advantage is
required, time for a house rule or change to the system. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:32:55 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 11:26 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>>>No mention of "Advantaged" or "Enhanced" here. Bummer.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, I'd like to see this given some sort of official recognition. Yes,
>>this is an easy one to abuse, but perhaps that's why it merits some
>>attention. I Occasionally, it's the only way of building something right.
>
>Gotta disagree...I like the philosophy of building the potential maximum,
>then limiting to achieve the desired effect. When a custom advantage is
>required, time for a house rule or change to the system. :)
The problem with that philosophy is that many GMs limit not real points
but active points. This gives little incentive to build limited powers.
Another
problem arises with frameworks. If I must build a power at its maximum
potential even though by definition I cannot use that potential, it often will
not fit in a reasonably scaled multipower or VPP.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:39:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
> On this 5th edition thing...
>
> Isn't there a difference between
> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
> Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
This is the old 'only to hero costume' instant change
> Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
> bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
> in the all-together ?
This is 'change into any clothing' power, which can be fairly useful.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Having term limitations is like having freedom of the press, but
only for ten pages."
Frank Benlin, _The Daily Feed_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:49:00 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>The problem with that philosophy is that many GMs limit not real points
>but active points. This gives little incentive to build limited powers.
Absolutely true, but the truth of the matter is that you can't maintain
balance by looking only at Active Points.
>Another
>problem arises with frameworks. If I must build a power at its maximum
>potential even though by definition I cannot use that potential, it often will
>not fit in a reasonably scaled multipower or VPP.
My favorite solution for this is the "Metapower" rule...I'm hoping the
"custom Talent" thing in v5 can be shoehorned to fit this bill. (Yeah,
Spirit Powers are Talents, that's the ticket...)
With the current setup, what you can do is sharply defined; you can take
away from it in a customized fashion, but you can't add. If you could add
whatever rules you wanted as a Custom Advantage, then there are no longer
any boundaries.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:51:07 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:39 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>> On this 5th edition thing...
>>
>> Isn't there a difference between
>> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>
>Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
But you still need to get into Hero ID somehow to use those powers. Curt's
point, I think, is that in making this kind of Transformation you're doing
more than Transforming your clothes. It seems quite possible to me that the
new Instant Change wrapped into Transform will take this into account; it
certainly should do so.
>
>> Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>
>This is the old 'only to hero costume' instant change
>
Or presumably the new "only into hero costume" Transform.
>> Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
>> bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not
fighting
>> in the all-together ?
>
>This is 'change into any clothing' power, which can be fairly useful.
>
Yes. A change of clothes is frequently all the disguise a hero needs.
One nice benefit of wrapping Instant Change into Transform is that it might
give more appropriate protection against one of the classic abusive
constructions: Instant Change Usable Against Others. I've only seen this
suggested in jest, but it certainly would be a cheap way of taking out
battle-suited opponents and anyone with a Secret ID.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:44:57 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Instant Change
>> Isn't there a difference between
>> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>
>Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
sizable physical differences between the two.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:55:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>
> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> > On this 5th edition thing...
> >
> > Isn't there a difference between
> > Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>
> Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
>
I probably should have been more explicit. Assuming your character
concept is 'Only in Hero ID', I always thought the Instant
Change power was needed if you wanted to change between your normal
and heroic forms without taking at least a phase.
Has anybody else interpreted it that way ?
"folding Instant Change" into transform seems confusing, because the
character is not buying Transform to change between his heroic or normal ID.
I suppose the answer is that the amount of time it takes to switch
between heroic and normal forms is now strictly a matter of special effects.
> > Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>
> This is the old 'only to hero costume' instant change
>
> > Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
> > bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
> > in the all-together ?
>
> This is 'change into any clothing' power, which can be fairly useful.
>
And presumably folding Instant Change into transform properly handles
'transform current clothes to costume', 'summon costume out of nowhere',
and 'transform anything (or nothing) I'm wearing to nothing / anything'
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:00:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > > On this 5th edition thing...
> > >
> > > Isn't there a difference between
> > > Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
> >
> > Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
>
> I probably should have been more explicit. Assuming your character
> concept is 'Only in Hero ID', I always thought the Instant
> Change power was needed if you wanted to change between your normal
> and heroic forms without taking at least a phase.
Ahhh... I see. IMO (and with the character I'm currently running), you
need to defeine how your acheive HID. In the case of Eclipse, his HID
powers kick in when he activates his Force Field, which does *not* have
the OIHID limitation.
> "folding Instant Change" into transform seems confusing, because the
> character is not buying Transform to change between his heroic or normal ID.
> I suppose the answer is that the amount of time it takes to switch
> between heroic and normal forms is now strictly a matter of special effects.
All he is doing is changing his clothing.
> > > Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
> > > bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
> > > in the all-together ?
> >
> > This is 'change into any clothing' power, which can be fairly useful.
>
> And presumably folding Instant Change into transform properly handles
> 'transform current clothes to costume', 'summon costume out of nowhere',
> and 'transform anything (or nothing) I'm wearing to nothing / anything'
Yup. It also allows for the 'Instant Change vs others' trick as well.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Having term limitations is like having freedom of the press, but
only for ten pages."
Frank Benlin, _The Daily Feed_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:00:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: jayphailey@juno.com
> Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> >> Isn't there a difference between
> >> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
> >
> >Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
>
> Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
> sizable physical differences between the two.
>
You could buy it as a multiform, but the way multiform works it's
much better to buy it as hero ID only. Multiform is really not worth
the points...
Curt Hicks
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:05:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
> > "folding Instant Change" into transform seems confusing, because the
> > character is not buying Transform to change between his heroic or normal ID.
> > I suppose the answer is that the amount of time it takes to switch
> > between heroic and normal forms is now strictly a matter of special effects.
>
> All he is doing is changing his clothing.
>
Huh ? Do you mean that with 5th edition Instant Change, it would mean that
**Billy Batson** is only changing his clothing when he becomes Captain Marvel ?
And then the definition for him achieving his heroic ID is when his clothing
changes ?
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:41:08 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> Isn't there a difference between
Well, yes.
> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
Billy Batson has no powers, so this change also includes Only In Hero ID on
most or all of the powers.
Other than that, it is just changing costumes for 5 points as usual.
> Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
> Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
> bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not
fighting
> in the all-together ?
These two have the same effect, just different special effects. under the
current rules, it's the same power.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:10:57 -0500
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
>> Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
>> sizable physical differences between the two.
>>
>
>You could buy it as a multiform, but the way multiform works it's
>much better to buy it as hero ID only. Multiform is really not worth
>the points...
Under the "old" rules, Captain Marvel should be bought as only in hero id.
You should only use multiform if there is a noticeable change in the persons
personality.
Personally, I never like the idea that OIHID was a limitation. There should
be no reason to give a bonus to Captain Marvel but a penalty to the Hulk.
As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a limitation or advantage, just a
special effect of playing. Sometimes you're in your secret id, sometimes
you're not. Sometimes you have your costume, sometimes you don't.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:10:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > > "folding Instant Change" into transform seems confusing, because the
> > > character is not buying Transform to change between his heroic or normal ID.
> > > I suppose the answer is that the amount of time it takes to switch
> > > between heroic and normal forms is now strictly a matter of special effects.
> >
> > All he is doing is changing his clothing.
>
> Huh ? Do you mean that with 5th edition Instant Change, it would mean that
> **Billy Batson** is only changing his clothing when he becomes Captain Marvel ?
> And then the definition for him achieving his heroic ID is when his clothing
> changes ?
No. I have never felt that Instant Change was a required part of the
OIHID power construct. Billy Batson/Capt Marvel combines both together,
but this is not the only way to do it.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Having term limitations is like having freedom of the press, but
only for ten pages."
Frank Benlin, _The Daily Feed_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:39:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 07:37 AM 6/2/1999 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>> Instant Change folded into Transform.
>
>Does this mean that the manuscript has power categories and Instant
>Change is a special form of Transform? Transform explicitly use to say
>that you could not Transform yourself. Will Instant Change cost more
>for characters with higher BODY scores?
Only if their clothes also have higher BODY scores. (It's for clothing,
not oneself -- I don't know how using Multiform instantly will be handled.)
>> Duplication and Multiform revised to make them
>> easier to use (and, hopefully, more "player friendly" without being
>> unbalancing).
>
>How? There have been as many proposed ways to do this as there are
>posters to the list. And these powers change with each edition. How?
My understanding is that they're going back to something closer to the
old 3rd Edition model.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:40:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 10:08 AM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>On this 5th edition thing...
>
>Isn't there a difference between
>Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
>bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
>in the all-together ?
The way I understand it, the latter two will be handled with Transform,
while the first will have some modifier (an Adder, perhaps?) to Multiform.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:14:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
>
> Personally, I never like the idea that OIHID was a limitation. There should
> be no reason to give a bonus to Captain Marvel but a penalty to the Hulk.
> As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a limitation or advantage, just a
> special effect of playing. Sometimes you're in your secret id, sometimes
> you're not. Sometimes you have your costume, sometimes you don't.
>
I'd buy Hulk as only in hero ID as well. The difference is I wouldn't
buy instant change, since I think it takes a while for Banner and the Hulk
to switch forms...
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:18:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> Subject: Re: Instant Change
> >
> >Isn't there a difference between
> >Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
> >Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
> >Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
> >bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
> >in the all-together ?
>
> The way I understand it, the latter two will be handled with Transform,
> while the first will have some modifier (an Adder, perhaps?) to Multiform.
Yep. Except I'm not foolish enough to buy the first case as multiform,
but I want to transform into my heroic ID without taking any time.
Actually, NOW I'm wondering about duplicating without taking a half phase...
And whether multiform specifies how long it takes to switch forms...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:16:56 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 11:49 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>
>With the current setup, what you can do is sharply defined; you can take
>away from it in a customized fashion, but you can't add. If you could add
>whatever rules you wanted as a Custom Advantage, then there are no longer
>any boundaries.
>
I see your point, and I like the principle, too. There have been times,
though, when I've had to sacrifice that principle to get a power to work
exactly the way I want it to. More important to me is the principle that
the System should let you build any power, exactly the way you want it to
work. You might have to spend a lot of points to do so, which is only fair
for a power which gives you a significant advantage, but you can do it
given a game with a sufficiently high point level.
Suppose I want a character who can travel FTL through the atmosphere. Why
shouldn't I be able to construct that character? The Flash (Barry Allen)
could, Marvel's Captain Marvel could (at exactly light speed, anyway), and
it's a valid superhero concept for a Champions game. Teleportation is a
rather clunky solution; it leaves an awkward rules situation if my
character is attacked by a villain with the same power (how can we fight in
mid-Teleport?) And if Teleportation is so ideal for FTL, why do we have an
FTL power in the first place? An advantage on FTL would be the most logical
way to construct this. Rather than way for the Hero Games guys to
incorporate my suggestion in the Umpteenth edition, I'm happy creating my
own house Advantage to do this.
Suppose I want to build a character who can see through anything. N-Ray
vision requires that something block it. A nice GM might let me buy N-Ray
Vision, Not through lead, plus N-Ray Vision which works through lead but
not through cottage cheese, and I can see through anything. But this has
the rather odd result of making what's supposed to be a single power
respond rather oddly to Drains, etc. Wouldn't a +1 Advantage have been a
more elegant solution?
It's inevitable that players are going to think of powers that the Hero
Games designers didn't specifically allow for in the rules; I think it's
handy to have a "legal" way to build them. Actually, from the sound of it,
the 5th edition will have some discussion of this sort of problem in the
section on customizing the rules for your own use. Perhaps that will be
enough, but an "Advantaged" Advantage with a Stop Sign would have been
consistent with the system as is and provided some guidelines for departing
in a somewhat controlled manner from an indisputably good general principle.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:19:46 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 11:49 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>>Another
>>problem arises with frameworks. If I must build a power at its maximum
>>potential even though by definition I cannot use that potential, it often
will
>>not fit in a reasonably scaled multipower or VPP.
>
>My favorite solution for this is the "Metapower" rule...I'm hoping the
>"custom Talent" thing in v5 can be shoehorned to fit this bill. (Yeah,
>Spirit Powers are Talents, that's the ticket...)
Tell me about the Metapower rule, please.
>With the current setup, what you can do is sharply defined; you can take
>away from it in a customized fashion, but you can't add. If you could add
>whatever rules you wanted as a Custom Advantage, then there are no longer
>any boundaries.
And that's bad because...?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:24:26 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 10:55 AM 6/2/99 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>>
>> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>
>> > On this 5th edition thing...
>> >
>> > Isn't there a difference between
>> > Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>>
>> Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
>>
>
>I probably should have been more explicit. Assuming your character
>concept is 'Only in Hero ID', I always thought the Instant
>Change power was needed if you wanted to change between your normal
>and heroic forms without taking at least a phase.
>
>Has anybody else interpreted it that way ?
I interpret it that a change is needed, though it need not be an Instant
Change. An ordinary change of clothes *could* be the change into Hero ID;
it's free, but it takes longer. On the same principle, I had a character
who underwent a long Jekyll->Hyde sort of transformation with OIHID powers.
It wasn't at all an *instant* change, so I didn't pay points for it.
However, I think the combination of Instant Change and OIHID is a valid and
important one, and I hope the new Transform takes its various
manifestations into account.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:46:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> Duplication and Multiform revised to make them
> >> easier to use (and, hopefully, more "player friendly" without being
> >> unbalancing).
> >
> >How? There have been as many proposed ways to do this as there are
> >posters to the list. And these powers change with each edition. How?
>
> My understanding is that they're going back to something closer to the
> old 3rd Edition model.
For the benefit of those of us who discovered HERO late...what were they
like in 3rd Edition?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:53:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> > A working rule we suggest is to make each Talent unique in the
> > campaign; that is, once one player-character has a particular Talent,
> > no other player-character can buy it (this is an optional rule, of
> > course, and shouldn't apply to all campaigns).
>
> Ick. I don't even like the idea that you suggest this in the book.
> Some player will complain: "I'm double-jointed, how can that villain be
> double-jointed."
"Because he's not a *player* character."
"Because it's an optional rule."
I think the idea behind the 'no duplicating Talents' is to give a little
bit of uniqueness to each character and prevent everyone and their dog
from loading up on the really useful talents. When one character has
(say) Danger Sense, it's a part of that character's schtick - it helps
make them unique. When two characters have it, it's an 'um...OK'
situation. When three or more have it it starts to get ridiculous.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:08:32 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>Tell me about the Metapower rule, please.
See http://www.javaman.to/hero.html
>>With the current setup, what you can do is sharply defined; you can take
>>away from it in a customized fashion, but you can't add. If you could add
>>whatever rules you wanted as a Custom Advantage, then there are no longer
>>any boundaries.
>
>And that's bad because...?
Because it means that the system is completely open ended...like if
everyone was writing their own powers left and right. Makes it harder to
transfer characters between games, etc.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:12:04 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>I see your point, and I like the principle, too. There have been times,
>though, when I've had to sacrifice that principle to get a power to work
>exactly the way I want it to. More important to me is the principle that
>the System should let you build any power, exactly the way you want it to
>work. You might have to spend a lot of points to do so, which is only fair
>for a power which gives you a significant advantage, but you can do it
>given a game with a sufficiently high point level.
I agree with you here, but I feel that the drawbacks of a generic Advantage
are too high, so I'd rather make a house rule now and then (and alter the
system, if need be). For every legitimate use, there would be 100 abuses...
>Suppose I want a character who can travel FTL through the atmosphere. Why
>shouldn't I be able to construct that character?
You should; that requirement on FTL is silly. My classic example is
Universal Translator: what if I don't want to have to make an INT roll? If
they made Universal Translator work automatically and cost 40 points, you
could limit it to require an INT roll if you wanted.
>Suppose I want to build a character who can see through anything. N-Ray
>vision requires that something block it. A nice GM might let me buy N-Ray
>Vision, Not through lead, plus N-Ray Vision which works through lead but
>not through cottage cheese, and I can see through anything.
A truly nice GM would let you buy N-Ray Vision, doesn't see through things
the character doesn't want to see through. :)
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #370
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