Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 372
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 5:04 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #372
champ-l-digest Thursday, June 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 372
In this issue:
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
Re: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
OOP books I picked up...gone
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
Curt Hicks writes:
> >> From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
> > I'm not sure if it stuck around through the various editions, but
> > in the first edition rules it states that changing into hero ID takes
> > one phase. Part of the genre conventions. [...]
>
> Right. I've been playing Champions for that long. I was going to refer to
> the rule explicitly mentioning the costume change but then remembered that
> it was probably from an earlier edition so didn't bother.
So has anybody noticed that rule in the BBB? Now I'm curious :-).
> Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too short...
Of course it's too short, if it weren't, there wouldn't be any
need for a genre rule. See the comments by others on getting to the
scene of the crime before the crime is over. Again, genre; most comic
writers go through all sorts of gyrations to make stories work ("just
happened to be flying by on patrol..." etc). Frankly most of these
conventions are why my campaigns (which tend to be anti-genre when I
run them) are usually pretty weird.
> Not Crimson Crusader, just Crusader, you're probably thinking of Crimson
> Commando.
Actually, I think I'm thinking of the Marvel silver-age(?)
Crimson Crusader character, who bore a striking resemblance to
Crusader (but then again, all of the above bear a striking resemblance
to your basic cave cop...). I remember a "dramatic death" story which
had him steering a burning, about-to-explode-with-horrendous-force
cargo ship of some sort out of a harbor to where it wouldn't endanger
the citizenry.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:34:39 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
difference is in sfx, not mechanics. i'd hope they aren't tinkering
with *that* concept.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 1:09 AM
Subject: Instant Change
>On this 5th edition thing...
>
>Isn't there a difference between
>Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
>bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not
fighting
>in the all-together ?
>
>
>
>Curt Hicks
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:39:24 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
To: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se&> hero-l@sysabend.org
<hero-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Instant Change
>>> Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
>>> sizable physical differences between the two.
>>>
>>
>>You could buy it as a multiform, but the way multiform works it's
>>much better to buy it as hero ID only. Multiform is really not worth
>>the points...
>
>
>Under the "old" rules, Captain Marvel should be bought as only in hero id.
>You should only use multiform if there is a noticeable change in the
persons
>personality.
>
>Personally, I never like the idea that OIHID was a limitation. There
should
>be no reason to give a bonus to Captain Marvel but a penalty to the Hulk.
>As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a limitation or advantage, just a
>special effect of playing. Sometimes you're in your secret id, sometimes
>you're not. Sometimes you have your costume, sometimes you don't.
>
>
sometimes that bullet will bounce off the back of your skull, sometimes. . .
..
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:48:23 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Nuncheon <jeffj@io.com>
>I think the idea behind the 'no duplicating Talents' is to give a little
>bit of uniqueness to each character and prevent everyone and their dog
>from loading up on the really useful talents. When one character has
>(say) Danger Sense, it's a part of that character's schtick - it helps
>make them unique. When two characters have it, it's an 'um...OK'
>situation. When three or more have it it starts to get ridiculous.
>
oddly enough, a good way to think of this is in reverse-
in a heroic campaign where all the pc's gained
their abilities from the same 'experiment', the
gm might rule that they all have to have the same talents.
This would also give the game and characters a
distinctive feel. Both options are good examples
of techniques for making character creation a bit
more story-oriented.
>J
>
>Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
>Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:40:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 05:23 PM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too short...
Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:11:19 -0400
From: "Dale A. Ward" <daleward@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
Greetings!
SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> I hope that clears things up and saves some needless wrangling. ;)
Steve, Steve, Steve... <shaking head sadly>
One would think that, by now, you would realize that "needless wrangling" is Mother's
Milk, The Breath Of Life, and an All-Consuming Drug to this bunch... Nay, to ALL Gamers,
regardless of race, creed, or the number of sides on their dice!
On the flip side, however, I appreciate the additional ammo for debate.
Dale A. Ward
*****************************
* Chaos, panic, & disorder. *
* My work here is done. *
*****************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
Bob Greenwade writes:
> At 05:23 PM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
> >Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too short...
>
> Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
> how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
Uhm, I'm not really sure I wanna ask this... in fact, I'm sure I
don't wanna ask this (visions of Bob being arrested for indecent
exposure in a phonebooth).
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:54:36 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 05:27 PM 6/2/1999 -0700, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> At 05:23 PM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> >Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too
short...
>>
>> Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
>> how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
>
> Uhm, I'm not really sure I wanna ask this... in fact, I'm sure I
>don't wanna ask this (visions of Bob being arrested for indecent
>exposure in a phonebooth).
1. Few people are aware of this, but all indecent exposure laws were
thrown out as unconstitutional (vs the Oregon Constitution's provision of
"freedom of expression") by a state Supreme Court ruling about three years
ago. (This could become an interesting, if minor, tidbit in the event
anyone's PCs should come to Oregon -- though it bears remembering that lewd
behavior in public is still illegal.)
2. I was timing it in the privacy of my own bedroom, thank you very
much, Steven. Just because something's legal doesn't mean that it *should*
be done....
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: 02 Jun 1999 21:03:23 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 02 Jun 1999
| Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
| how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
Remember, a phase is roughly equivalent to a single panel on a page of
comic. Anything you can fit into a panel, you can do in an action phase.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:06:20 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 09:03 PM 6/2/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 02 Jun 1999
>| Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
>| how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
>
>Remember, a phase is roughly equivalent to a single panel on a page of
>comic. Anything you can fit into a panel, you can do in an action phase.
Absolutely -- but not all campaigns are using comic book reality. (Mine
tend to more closely resemble television.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:28:12 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
In general, I like or am ambivolent to most of the changes, however, there
are a few I would like to comment on.
> HA is 5 Active Points per die with a mandatory Limitation
> (it's what it always was -- a Limited type of STR, really --
> broken out into its own category for ease of conception and play).
I would have liked to see Hand Attack and Energy Blast reworked to be much
like HKA and RKA, with the exception that they do normal damage. Granted,
this is more or less what they already are, but HKA and RKA cost the same,
while HA and EB are now only the same Active Cost (a step in the right
direction).
Chuckle, it took many, many years, but I was finally converted to the "STR
should cost 2 points" camp a few years back (especially for Hero Level
games). If that were the case, then making HA a flat 5 points works out
great.
Please, let's not start the Strength cost debate again though!! :-)
Personally, I can live with it either way.
> Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs
> for Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups
> at their base level.
This I like. It always annoyed me that a "Flash vs. Sight Sense Group" and
"Flash vs. Sight Sense Group and normal Hearing" cost the same amount. My
house rule was such that a Sense cost 5 points (as per the book), and that
converting a Sense to a Sense Group cost 5 points. Thus, it was only +5
points to turn the sense you got for free with Flash (Darkness, Images and
the like) into a sense group. Whole new Sense Groups still cost +10 points.
The above new method solves this problem in a different way.
> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
> not Phases.
Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash was
always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like this
way of fixing it at all.
This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say you
get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to lose 2
Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase, while a
Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment the
Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
If you can't hold a Phase during the Flash Effect, thus avoiding one Phase
of being Flashed, then add a Phase to the above examples ... but if you
don't get 6 Segments, then you better time it right, or you still won't
affect a Speed 2 character!!
I think I see my first 5th ed. house rule coming up. Fix Flash!! :-)
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:38:16 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
>>The problem with that philosophy is that many GMs limit not real points
>>but active points. This gives little incentive to build limited powers.
>
>Absolutely true, but the truth of the matter is that you can't maintain
>balance by looking only at Active Points.
I am a GM who uses Active Point power Limits, but I totally agree with what
Geoff wrote. My house rule on calculating Active Point against my Active
Point Limit is as follows (first sentence was added after a player thought I
had changed the way Advantages actually worked when calculating the true
Active cost):
- - - - - -
Active Points for the Power Level Maxima ONLY (not actual cost) should be
calculated as follows. Note that if an attack is something like a Hand
Killing Attack, where Strength can add in, you should do the calculations
based on the full number of dice for the attack, not just the Power.
1. Use the full value of advantages that can directly effect the damage
caused (e.g., Armor Piercing or Autofire).
2. Use half the value of advantages that increase effectiveness but not
damage (e.g., No Range Mod or Area Effect).
3. Ignore the value of advantages that simply make the power easier to use
(e.g., Reduced END or lots of charges).
- - - - - -
This has worked pretty well, and does not trash powers that use Area Effect
like Absolute Active Point limits would normally do. Also note that the
Limits are for starting characters only. Once play starts, I remove the
Limits. Characters can then use Experience to increase the effect of their
Powers.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:44:43 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Overhaul, Simplification, etc.
At 11:23 PM 6/1/99 -0400, John Desmarais wrote:
>Unfortunately, the bulk of the discussion took place during one of the
annoying gaps in
>my archive of the list
(http://www.sysabend.org/champions/champ-l/archives). I have a
>some of the individual posts related to that topic in a separate archive,
but not all of
>them.
Okay, I hunted it down in my archive. This discussion took place from feb
4 - feb 17 and had about 5-6 different subject names. I'm going to put a
copy of it on my website. It's a 800K mail file. Here's the prospective
URL. There is no link to it from my main page and it will stop being there
in a couple months.
http://www.superlink.net/~why/templates.txt
>p.s.
>Anybody have copies of the posts to teh list Feb-Mar 1998?
John, I have stuff from this period. I notice that you thanked me for a
bunch of files. Didn't I include those posts? I could have sworn I
included them. Let me know what you need and I'll see if I have it.
Enjoy,
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:49:09 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
- -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT), shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
sent
>>these symbols into the net:
>>
>>>
>>>>Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs for
>>>>Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups at
their
>>>>base level. Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of
Segments,
>>>
>>>Good. The single sense thing was always middlin' annoying...and often
>>>irrational.
>>>
>>>I tried the segments thing and often found it made the power perhaps a
tiny
>>>bit too good; I'll be interested in hearing other people's oppinions.
>> I'd like to hear a bit more explanation on that, my experience was
that
>>the 4th edition rules made Agent-types pretty much immune to flash attacks
>>because all the 50 point or better Agents had flash defense. My arguement
>>in favor of flash attacks is that they *are* non-lethal, and generally
>>don't do even do STUN damage.
>
>Well, I was only using the dice per 10, but counting full pips, not Body.
>Now that I reread this, I think they're still talking about counting Body.
>At that point, at least some serious Flash Defense has to be purchased to
>make you completely immune. Under the system I tried out it was a bit too
>easy to disable someone for the whole fight with one attack.
After trying a few things with Flash, the house rule I ended adopting using
4th ed. rules was to keep the method the same and only change the cost. The
cost change was 15 points for 2d6 of Flash. An extra d6 cost 8 points (not
7.5, rounded down to 7).
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>In general, I like or am ambivolent to most of the changes, however, there
>are a few I would like to comment on.
>
>
>> HA is 5 Active Points per die with a mandatory Limitation
>> (it's what it always was -- a Limited type of STR, really --
>> broken out into its own category for ease of conception and play).
>
>I would have liked to see Hand Attack and Energy Blast reworked to be much
>like HKA and RKA, with the exception that they do normal damage. Granted,
>this is more or less what they already are, but HKA and RKA cost the same,
>while HA and EB are now only the same Active Cost (a step in the right
>direction).
The classic problem is that very few people would take an HA at that price;
they'd just take an EB or STR.
>
>Chuckle, it took many, many years, but I was finally converted to the "STR
>should cost 2 points" camp a few years back (especially for Hero Level
>games). If that were the case, then making HA a flat 5 points works out
>great.
>
True, but it causes problems in it's own way. I used to be a proponent of
that, but have concluded it's too late in the day.
>> Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs
>> for Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups
>> at their base level.
>> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
>> not Phases.
>
>Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash was
>always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like this
>way of fixing it at all.
>
>This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say you
>get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
>Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to lose 2
>Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase, while a
>Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment the
>Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
Not the only place where that happens. Have a force field. Or be drowning.
>
>If you can't hold a Phase during the Flash Effect, thus avoiding one Phase
>of being Flashed, then add a Phase to the above examples ... but if you
>don't get 6 Segments, then you better time it right, or you still won't
>affect a Speed 2 character!!
>
>I think I see my first 5th ed. house rule coming up. Fix Flash!! :-)
Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal; if you target it on most
normals, most serious flashes are still going to get them for at least a
Phase. After all, even 30 points is six segments if I understand it right.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:13:47 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>> Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs
>>> for Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups
>>> at their base level.
>>> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
>>> not Phases.
>>
>>Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash was
>>always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like this
>>way of fixing it at all.
>>
>>This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say you
>>get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
>>Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to lose
2
>>Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase, while
a
>>Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment the
>>Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
>
>Not the only place where that happens. Have a force field. Or be
drowning.
I follow the drowning, but I'm not sure it's really the same thing, unless
your drowning while actively engaged in combat. Normally if drowning, it's
really a good idea to voluntarially drop your Speed to 2, which will lesson
the effect. When Flashed, it's probably a good idea keep your Speed the
same, as I see no real advantage in dropping it.
I don't follow your force field example. What has that got to do with
Speed?
>>If you can't hold a Phase during the Flash Effect, thus avoiding one Phase
>>of being Flashed, then add a Phase to the above examples ... but if you
>>don't get 6 Segments, then you better time it right, or you still won't
>>affect a Speed 2 character!!
>>
>>I think I see my first 5th ed. house rule coming up. Fix Flash!! :-)
>
>Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal; if you target it on most
>normals, most serious flashes are still going to get them for at least a
>Phase. After all, even 30 points is six segments if I understand it right.
Maybe ... I'll need to see the actual text before I agree. :-) If so, it
makes Flash Defense sort of mandatory ... like having resistant defense.
I still don't like the fact that a power you attack with affects characters
with a higher Speed to a greater degree then ones with a lower Speed.
Agents better start stocking up on those Flash grenades now, since they will
work better on Supers than on normals! :-)
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>I follow the drowning, but I'm not sure it's really the same thing, unless
>your drowning while actively engaged in combat. Normally if drowning, it's
>really a good idea to voluntarially drop your Speed to 2, which will lesson
>the effect. When Flashed, it's probably a good idea keep your Speed the
>same, as I see no real advantage in dropping it.
There isn't, but on the other hand, in absolute terms, you're effected for
the same length of time either way.
>
>I don't follow your force field example. What has that got to do with
>Speed?
>
You end up needing to run the Endurance on your force field, in practice,
every phase. This is true whether you get hit or not. In effect, having a
higher Speed means your force field costs more Endurance, but it doesn't
really give you anything more than it would the low Speed person with the
force field.
>>>I think I see my first 5th ed. house rule coming up. Fix Flash!! :-)
>>
>>Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal; if you target it on most
>>normals, most serious flashes are still going to get them for at least a
>>Phase. After all, even 30 points is six segments if I understand it right.
>
>
>Maybe ... I'll need to see the actual text before I agree. :-) If so, it
>makes Flash Defense sort of mandatory ... like having resistant defense.
Not really. At least no more than currently. Under the current rule, a 60
point Flash will take a character out for the wholre round at least.
>
>I still don't like the fact that a power you attack with affects characters
>with a higher Speed to a greater degree then ones with a lower Speed.
>Agents better start stocking up on those Flash grenades now, since they will
>work better on Supers than on normals! :-)
Not really. Not in absolute terms.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:49:07 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: OOP books I picked up...gone
I've now sold both the Star Hero and Cyber Hero books I mentioned picking
up on my Atlanta trip. No need for anyone else to ask for them. Thanks.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:28:42 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
On 6/2/99 at 9:38 PM Michael Sprague wrote:
>Active Points for the Power Level Maxima ONLY (not actual cost) should be
>calculated as follows. Note that if an attack is something like a Hand
>Killing Attack, where Strength can add in, you should do the calculations
>based on the full number of dice for the attack, not just the Power.
>
>1. Use the full value of advantages that can directly effect the damage
>caused (e.g., Armor Piercing or Autofire).
>
>2. Use half the value of advantages that increase effectiveness but not
>damage (e.g., No Range Mod or Area Effect).
>
>3. Ignore the value of advantages that simply make the power easier to use
>(e.g., Reduced END or lots of charges).
>
>- - - - -
>
>This has worked pretty well, and does not trash powers that use Area
Effect
>like Absolute Active Point limits would normally do. Also note that the
>Limits are for starting characters only. Once play starts, I remove the
>Limits. Characters can then use Experience to increase the effect of
their
>Powers.
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here, Michael. True, the advantages in
2 and 3 don't affect the amount of damage done in combat, but they most
certainly DO have a significant effect on combat. Imagine two characters,
identical except for their attacks. The attacks do the same amount of
damage (say, 12d6); one has the 0 END Advantage, the other has the
equivalent points put into his END. I'd lay odds that the one with the 0
END would be fighting long after his clone. (Is this a straw man
argument?) A man with a bow without range mods can snipe all day at a man
with a sword, though their weapons might do the same damage. I just don't
know that I would ignore the tactical advantages in favor of advantages
that cause damage.
Guy
Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
"I used to think, "Mind control satellites? No way!' But now, I can't
remember what we did without 'em."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:31:58 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
> >Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have
> differing costs for
> >Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense
> Groups at their
> >base level. Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a
> number of Segments,
>
> Good. The single sense thing was always middlin' annoying...and often
> irrational.
>
If I'm remembering correctly, this also encouraged players to buy the silly
"Flash vs. Normal Hearing and Sight Group" because the single sense came for
free when you purchased a whole sense group.
And I guess we can still Limit Flash to work only versus Normal Sight if we
don't want to Flash IR or UV vision as well.
grant
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>
>
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>
>> >Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have
>> differing costs for
>> >Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense
>> Groups at their
>> >base level. Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a
>> number of Segments,
>>
>> Good. The single sense thing was always middlin' annoying...and often
>> irrational.
>>
>
>
>If I'm remembering correctly, this also encouraged players to buy the silly
>"Flash vs. Normal Hearing and Sight Group" because the single sense came for
>free when you purchased a whole sense group.
Yup.
>
>And I guess we can still Limit Flash to work only versus Normal Sight if we
>don't want to Flash IR or UV vision as well.
Though I still have trouble figuring out what that would be. In the case of
Darkness or Invisibility, it's easy to picture what's going on, but Flash?
It might make sense for creatures with totally seperate sensory organs for
those, but not with anything like a human with extended vision.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:13:38 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 10:08 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On this 5th edition thing...
>
>Isn't there a difference between
>Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
>bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not fighting
>in the all-together ?
>
I think so. IIRC, instant change covers the last two, but not the first
one. The first one might include instant chang, but also has Only In Hero ID.
IIRC, Instant change just covers changing/putting on ones' costume.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:26:19 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:00 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> From: jayphailey@juno.com
>> Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>
>> >> Isn't there a difference between
>> >> Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>> >
>> >Yes, I'd call this "Only in Hero ID"
>>
>> Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
>> sizable physical differences between the two.
>>
>
>You could buy it as a multiform, but the way multiform works it's
>much better to buy it as hero ID only. Multiform is really not worth
>the points...
>
>Curt Hicks
>
ARGH!! Someone took my HSR off the Reference Shelf!
Let's see. Assume I got a 250 point hero. He takes the Normal
Characteristic Maxima limit and stuff, and buys himself into a Talented
Normal (75pts). That leaves him 175 points to spend on his Multiform.
That buy one a whole lotta points of Hero ID.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:32:31 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:10 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Wouldn't Billy Batson and Captain Marvel be a multiform? There are
>>> sizable physical differences between the two.
>>>
>>
>>You could buy it as a multiform, but the way multiform works it's
>>much better to buy it as hero ID only. Multiform is really not worth
>>the points...
>
>
>Under the "old" rules, Captain Marvel should be bought as only in hero id.
>You should only use multiform if there is a noticeable change in the persons
>personality.
>
>Personally, I never like the idea that OIHID was a limitation. There should
>be no reason to give a bonus to Captain Marvel but a penalty to the Hulk.
>As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a limitation or advantage, just a
>special effect of playing. Sometimes you're in your secret id, sometimes
>you're not. Sometimes you have your costume, sometimes you don't.
>
>
IIRC, Billy and Captain Marvel only had very similar personalities. And
since Captain Marvel was taller, looked different, etc, I'd say Multiform
is fair game.
OIHID was intended to handle characters who did not use foci but who, for
one reason or another, _could_not_ use powers in their normal ID.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:33:50 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 12:10 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>> > > "folding Instant Change" into transform seems confusing, because the
>> > > character is not buying Transform to change between his heroic or
normal ID.
>> > > I suppose the answer is that the amount of time it takes to switch
>> > > between heroic and normal forms is now strictly a matter of special
effects.
>> >
>> > All he is doing is changing his clothing.
>>
>> Huh ? Do you mean that with 5th edition Instant Change, it would mean that
>> **Billy Batson** is only changing his clothing when he becomes Captain
Marvel ?
>> And then the definition for him achieving his heroic ID is when his
clothing
>> changes ?
>
>No. I have never felt that Instant Change was a required part of the
>OIHID power construct. Billy Batson/Capt Marvel combines both together,
>but this is not the only way to do it.
>
I'm not sure he does. We're talking about the kid who says "SHAZAM!",
right? Seems like his transformation, while mystical, took a little time.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:36:03 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:14 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> From: Mitchel Santorineos <mitchels@megsinet.net>
>>
>> Personally, I never like the idea that OIHID was a limitation. There
should
>> be no reason to give a bonus to Captain Marvel but a penalty to the Hulk.
>> As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be a limitation or advantage, just a
>> special effect of playing. Sometimes you're in your secret id, sometimes
>> you're not. Sometimes you have your costume, sometimes you don't.
>>
>
>I'd buy Hulk as only in hero ID as well. The difference is I wouldn't
>buy instant change, since I think it takes a while for Banner and the Hulk
>to switch forms...
>
>Curt
>
Depends on which era of Hulk. A lot of the time, the Hulk had only vague
memories of his time as Bruce Banner and Banner had no memories of his time
as The Hulk, which makes this a prime candidate for Multiform.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:37:52 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:18 AM 6/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>> Subject: Re: Instant Change
>> >
>> >Isn't there a difference between
>> >Instant Change = Billy Batson becomes Captain Marvel and
>> >Instant Change = Wally West puts on his Flash costume and
>> >Instant Change = Merlin the Magician, who has been ambushed while in the
>> >bath by his arch-enemy mutters a quick incantation so that he's not
fighting
>> >in the all-together ?
>>
>> The way I understand it, the latter two will be handled with Transform,
>> while the first will have some modifier (an Adder, perhaps?) to Multiform.
>
>Yep. Except I'm not foolish enough to buy the first case as multiform,
>but I want to transform into my heroic ID without taking any time.
>
> Actually, NOW I'm wondering about duplicating without taking a half phase...
>And whether multiform specifies how long it takes to switch forms...
>
IIRC, changing forms is a zero-phase action. HOWEVER, you move on the next
phase that _your_previous_form_ would act on, to prevent the abuse of
changing forms to ensure you act on every phase.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:08:00 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 04:40 PM 6/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>At 05:23 PM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too short...
>
> Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
>how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
>---
>
Depends on how prepared you are. If you dress like Peter Parker or Clark
Kent, we're talking about slipping out of penny loafers, taking off your
shirt, pulling off your pants, and maybe pulling on a ski mask. A little
practice and I'll bet I do it reliably in under 30 seconds.
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:28:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuk Goodin <cgoodin@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> IIRC, Billy and Captain Marvel only had very similar personalities. And
> since Captain Marvel was taller, looked different, etc, I'd say Multiform
> is fair game.
I just read a fairly recent painted graphic novel about Shazam!, and in
that, it was quite explicit that Billy and Captain Marvel were the same
person, but Cap just looked different and had the powers. I think you're
right about the older comics, though...
chuk
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #372
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:10 PM