Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 376
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 11:26 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #376
champ-l-digest Friday, June 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 376
In this issue:
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Swapping stats
Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
RE: effects of radiation
Re: Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
RE: (null)
RE: (null)
Re: Activating a Multipower slot with Trigger
Re: A really bizarre request
Re: Instant Change
RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: A really bizarre request
Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:56:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
> During one of those planet sweeping mutant massacrees, Colossus got changed
> so that he has to concentrate to remain flesh and would automaticly become
> metal if startled.
>
> How to reflect THAT?
>
He bought off the Only in Hero Form Limitation. Rest is special effects.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:01:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
> > During one of those planet sweeping mutant massacrees, Colossus got changed
> > so that he has to concentrate to remain flesh and would automaticly become
> > metal if startled.
> >
> > How to reflect THAT?
>
> He bought off the Only in Hero Form Limitation. Rest is special effects.
That and Accidental Change
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"You are about 10% as cool as you think you are...
and if you live to be a million years old,
you will *never* be as cool as Chuck Berry."
Henry Rollins
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:24:15 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 10:01 AM 6/4/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>> > From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
>> > During one of those planet sweeping mutant massacrees, Colossus got
changed
>> > so that he has to concentrate to remain flesh and would automaticly
become
>> > metal if startled.
>> >
>> > How to reflect THAT?
>>
>> He bought off the Only in Hero Form Limitation. Rest is special effects.
>
>That and Accidental Change
For Colossus, I agree. I've had other character ideas where this wouldn't
work so well, though. It's occurred to me before that it would be handy to
have a "default state" Limitation, making a 0 END Persistant power cost END
to deactivate. Since Always On is -1/2, this Limitation would probably be
worth -1/4.
Without this Limitation, buying Suppress, Only on Self is the most obvious
way to get this effect, but that can be a lot of points to pay for a
situation which is really an inconvenience for the PC. A better
construction would probably be buying the power with 0 END, Persistant,
then adding a Phys. Lim: Must Pay END to deactivate power.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:27:30 -0400
From: Kim Foster <nexus@qx.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
At 08:34 AM 6/4/99 -0500, bobby farris wrote:
>Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, geoff heald wrote:
>>
>> > I've just thought of two Marvel Heros who had a power construct that would
>> > need special dispensation in Hero.
>> > The Hulk: The madder he gets, the stronger he gets. But he loses rational
>> > control. So he's basicly trading Int for Str. What do I do, put them in a
>> > Multipower?
>>
>> A INT Drain as a Side Effect to his STR Aid?
>
>This is the way I have seen it done. I think it is the best way to do it is
make
>the person create both powers giving the INT drain limitations saying that
it is
>only usable when the STR Aid is used. Then give the STR Aid a major limitation
>for the INT drain.
>
>This is one problem I have had with Champions in the past. Any power that
causes
>harm to the character actually ends up costing the character points. Sometimes
>the power has an advantage, but in this case the INT drain is useless (only
>usable on self -???). A house rule I have used to help solve this is I let the
>player take the cost of the power off of his disadvantage total. Therefore if
>the INT drain cost 15 real points then he would only have to come up with
135pts
>worth of disadvantages in a 100+150 campaign.
Why not make the Int Drain a Side effect of the Strength Aid?
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:10:29 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Subject: Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
I "might" be talked into running a sci-fi campaign soon and I really
want to use the Hero system drather then this "other system".
I have an unofficial copy of the "4th edition Hero" and I actually have
the old version of Star Hero...which I find pretty useless except for
ideas.
Now my question concerns the effects of radiation (realistic) and
Atmospheric Pressure (whether high or low) on the human body. How does
the Hero system model these effects.
For radiation I figure there are a couple of different levels.
Level 1: This is the least harmful radiation. It will give you a sunburn
and maybe make you uncomfortable, but no real effects. I figure
something along the lines of a small Change Enviroment.
Level 2: More than a sunburn, but less then lethal. You are now actually
begining to feel some effects. Change Enviroment tied in with a CON
drain that has a short time duration.
Level 3: This is the serious level where you really begin to have
serious effects upon you body. Same as Level 2 except that the time
duration on the CON drain is extended with a small, short duration BODY
drain.
Level 4: Intense/High radiation level. Level 3 powers with greater BODY
drain. The higher the level of radiation the higher the BODY drain goes
including its duration.
Level 5: Quick Lethality. At this point the character has moments to
live. RKA
Atmospheric Pressure
I am not sure how to mimic the effects of atmospheric pressure. I
figure for low pressure atmopheres there should be an END drain...maybe
that is all there should be...anyone have any ideas.????
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:08:22 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> <picky mode>
> Before the 1980's, medical reasons required Tony Stark to wear at least
the
> Iron Man breastplate at all times, but apparently it was no problem to
> conceal under clothes.
> </picky mode>
Well, yes, but then you get into the whole problem of having part of his
powers on an activation roll and then buying off the activiation roll for
those powers with OIHID and it just makes an icky mess...
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:10:20 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> During one of those planet sweeping mutant massacrees, Colossus got
changed
> so that he has to concentrate to remain flesh and would automaticly become
> metal if startled.
>
> How to reflect THAT?
Buy the Density Increase as Persistent, buy all the powers as OIHID (or
Based on Density Increase), and take Accidental Change when startled?
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:16:21 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
> And yes, I think the Miracle Man/Mike Moran switch is the veryt
> definition of "Multiform"
Well, actually, no (unless, of course, you want to do it that way :)
There is no change in personality, no change that I recall in skills. The
difference between the two forms if memory serves was purely that one of
them had superpowers the other didn't have. While Multiform can certainly
model this, there is no reason in this case it HAS to be Multiform, game
mechanically, and if it is used a number of things will be duplicated
between the two forms (just about everthing about Mike Moran will be
duplicated or exceeded in the Miracleman form).
Of course, memory may not serve...
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:40:56 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
Bill Svitavsky says:
>It's occurred to me before that it would be handy to have a "default state"
>Limitation, making a 0 END Persistant power cost END to deactivate. Since
>Always On is -1/2, this
>Limitation would probably be worth -1/4.
I actually built a character using "default state" on a
Desolid. I got the full -1/2 on it, partially because she
had pay END when solid (almost as if she had the equivalent
power "Solidification".
I think getting the 1/2 rather then the 1/4 may have been
the result of a generous GM as well...
- --
|Now you, too can say "I've been to Hellenback!" Just drop by
|http://www.eclipse.net/~srudy/helnback/index.html
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 13:15:18 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
At 10:10 AM 6/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I "might" be talked into running a sci-fi campaign soon and I really
>want to use the Hero system drather then this "other system".
>
>I have an unofficial copy of the "4th edition Hero" and I actually have
>the old version of Star Hero...which I find pretty useless except for
>ideas.
>
>Now my question concerns the effects of radiation (realistic) and
>Atmospheric Pressure (whether high or low) on the human body. How does
>the Hero system model these effects.
>
>For radiation I figure there are a couple of different levels.
>
>Level 1: This is the least harmful radiation. It will give you a sunburn
>and maybe make you uncomfortable, but no real effects. I figure
>something along the lines of a small Change Enviroment.
>
>Level 2: More than a sunburn, but less then lethal. You are now actually
>begining to feel some effects. Change Enviroment tied in with a CON
>drain that has a short time duration.
>
>Level 3: This is the serious level where you really begin to have
>serious effects upon you body. Same as Level 2 except that the time
>duration on the CON drain is extended with a small, short duration BODY
>drain.
>
>Level 4: Intense/High radiation level. Level 3 powers with greater BODY
>drain. The higher the level of radiation the higher the BODY drain goes
>including its duration.
>
>Level 5: Quick Lethality. At this point the character has moments to
>live. RKA
>
>Atmospheric Pressure
> I am not sure how to mimic the effects of atmospheric pressure. I
>figure for low pressure atmopheres there should be an END drain...maybe
>that is all there should be...anyone have any ideas.????
>
Check out Steve Long's article on nuclear warfare in Hero System Almanac 2.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:01:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 09:40 AM 6/4/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>Bill Svitavsky says:
>>It's occurred to me before that it would be handy to have a "default state"
>>Limitation, making a 0 END Persistant power cost END to deactivate. Since
>>Always On is -1/2, this
>>Limitation would probably be worth -1/4.
>
>I actually built a character using "default state" on a
>Desolid. I got the full -1/2 on it, partially because she
>had pay END when solid (almost as if she had the equivalent
>power "Solidification".
>
>I think getting the 1/2 rather then the 1/4 may have been
>the result of a generous GM as well...
Maybe I'm just that generous, but it's what I'd give as well.
One can hope that this kind of situation is covered in Hero5 as well....
:-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:30:08 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
At 11:01 AM 6/4/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:40 AM 6/4/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>>Bill Svitavsky says:
>>>It's occurred to me before that it would be handy to have a "default
state"
>>>Limitation, making a 0 END Persistant power cost END to deactivate. Since
>>>Always On is -1/2, this
>>>Limitation would probably be worth -1/4.
>>
>>I actually built a character using "default state" on a
>>Desolid. I got the full -1/2 on it, partially because she
>>had pay END when solid (almost as if she had the equivalent
>>power "Solidification".
>>
>>I think getting the 1/2 rather then the 1/4 may have been
>>the result of a generous GM as well...
>
> Maybe I'm just that generous, but it's what I'd give as well.
> One can hope that this kind of situation is covered in Hero5 as well....
> :-]
>---
I could see it as -1/2.
I initially suggested -1/4 solely due to comparison with Always On. A
character with Default State could choose never to pay END and have
precisely the situation of a character with an Always On power, but has the
option of turning off the power by paying END. Since there's another
option, this is something less of a Disadvantage than Always On.
However, in practice Default State might well be as much of a disadvantage
as Always On, because characters built around each of these disadvantages
are likely to have their own ways around them and their own inconveniences.
A PC built with Desolidification Always On is, in all likelihood, going to
have some way of interacting with the solid world: attacks which affect
solid, EGO powers, a multiform, or something. A PC with a Desolid Default
State might depend entirely on paying END to deal with the material world,
and good role-players are likely to build END problems into the character
for dramatic effect.
So, while I think there's a good case for -1/4, I certainly wouldn't turn
down a GM (or a rulebook) offering me -1/2 for it.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:01:28 EDT
From: MWStrong@aol.com
Subject: RE: effects of radiation
The CON drain does not go far enough - if it also effects figured
characteristics, it would be more realistic. You could instead add a supress
stun and end to about 1/2 the character's normal value. The modern drugs
used to help treat radiation sickness are not fun either.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:05:56 -0400
From: Indiana Joe <jrc3@home.com>
Subject: Re: Effects of Radiation and Pressure.....
At 1:15 PM -0400 6/4/99, Scott C. Nolan wrote:
>At 10:10 AM 6/4/99 -0500, redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) wrote:
>>I "might" be talked into running a sci-fi campaign soon and I really
>>want to use the Hero system drather then this "other system".
>>
>>I have an unofficial copy of the "4th edition Hero" and I actually have
>>the old version of Star Hero...which I find pretty useless except for
>>ideas.
>>
>>Now my question concerns the effects of radiation (realistic) and
>>Atmospheric Pressure (whether high or low) on the human body. How does
>>the Hero system model these effects.
>>
>> [snip]
>
>Check out Steve Long's article on nuclear warfare in Hero System Almanac 2.
As well as the article on "Change Enviroment". (Or was that in HSA 1?)
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc3@home.com | - Charlie Chaplin
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 00:15:53
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: (null)
On Tue, 25 May 1999 12:14:10 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:18 PM 5/25/1999 -0400, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>>
>>As for what constitutes a good gaming attitude, I look for the following...
> [snip]
>>So, if you run into anyone who fits all these criteria, forget about how
>>much gaming experience they have and get them in your game. If you put in a
>>little work teaching them the basics and sending them home with your extra
>>copy of the BBB, you'll be much happier than if you play with some dink just
>>because he's been playing Hero since the first time Seeker was stunned into
>>'GM's Discretion' on a supplement cover.
>>
>>That's how I see it, anyway.
>
> Aside from the invectives, I'd say this is a pretty good list of
>criteria; I'd only add that they be reasonably literate and mathematically
>competent.
It's worth pointing out that RPing helps your mathematics, linguistic,
etc (ad nauseam) skills immensely
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 00:18:32
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: (null)
On Tue, 25 May 1999 15:24:55 -0700, Grant Enfield wrote:
>Some new players do well to start out ripping off their favorite characters.
>What turns out to be more of a problem for me is "What do you mean I don't
>have enough points for my Iron Man to do everything the REAL Iron Man has
>done in any issue that ever came out?" Though even this hasn't been much of
>a problem.
Perhaps because I come from the FH angle, this is less of a problem -
people are used to starting AD&D characters not being Conan-clones
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 00:26:07
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Activating a Multipower slot with Trigger
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:01:47 -0500 (EST), Jason Sullivan wrote:
> Is it possible to activate a Multipower slot while unconcious if
>the slot's powers are Persistant and the trigger is "Only during
>unconciousness"?
I wouldn't call that a valid trigger - though 'Being knocked
unconscious ' would be - I'd like more info on the power before going
much further, though a Partially Limited Damage Shield springs to mind.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 00:36:30
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A really bizarre request
On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:03:22 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
>stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
>something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
>making.
Sort of related is the renaming of various flavours of Walker's Crisps
over here, coinciding with the finale of the football (thats UK
football) season. eg we had Cheese and Owen, and Salt and Lineker.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 19:21:28 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 01:51 PM 6/3/1999 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
> >I decided to test this out. My 38 year old brother (wearing sneakers, an
> >Izod shirt, and jeans with a Navy belt) said, "I'm not dressed too unlike
> >Peter Parker, wanna test it?" 10 seconds and he even took off his socks.
>
> Okay, a Turn, then.
> Razza frazza razza frazza.... ;-]
Certainly thats how long we have played it ever since Champions came
out. Then somebody on this damn list pointed out the one phase listing
on the time charts. We kept it at a turn, however.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:15:42 -0400
From: Indiana Joe <jrc3@home.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
At 12:30 AM -0400 6/4/99, geoff heald wrote:
>Sounds very workable. Problem is, most folks don't have seperate sensors
>for IR or UV light.
For a human in a contemporary setting, sure. But in other genres, not
necessarily. Aliens with specialized retinal cells, each sensing a narrow
band. Robots with sensors (or Geordi LaForge). Wizards who magically alter
their eyes to be able to see in a different portion of the spectrum.
I'd base it on SFX.
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc3@home.com | - Charlie Chaplin
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:05:29 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>I still don't like the fact that a power you attack with affects
characters
>>with a higher Speed to a greater degree then ones with a lower Speed.
>>Agents better start stocking up on those Flash grenades now, since they
will
>>work better on Supers than on normals! :-)
>
>Not really. Not in absolute terms.
In absolute terms, Flash will indeed work better on supers than normals,
simply because Supers will have more disadvantaged Phases. I don't know how
more absolute you can get.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:17:01 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
>On 6/2/99 at 9:38 PM Michael Sprague wrote:
>>Active Points for the Power Level Maxima ONLY (not actual cost) should be
>>calculated as follows. Note that if an attack is something like a Hand
>>Killing Attack, where Strength can add in, you should do the calculations
>>based on the full number of dice for the attack, not just the Power.
>>
>>1. Use the full value of advantages that can directly effect the damage
>>caused (e.g., Armor Piercing or Autofire).
>>
>>2. Use half the value of advantages that increase effectiveness but not
>>damage (e.g., No Range Mod or Area Effect).
>>
>>3. Ignore the value of advantages that simply make the power easier to use
>>(e.g., Reduced END or lots of charges).
>>
>>- - - - -
>>
>>This has worked pretty well, and does not trash powers that use Area
>Effect
>>like Absolute Active Point limits would normally do. Also note that the
>>Limits are for starting characters only. Once play starts, I remove the
>>Limits. Characters can then use Experience to increase the effect of
>their
>>Powers.
>
>I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here, Michael. True, the advantages in
>2 and 3 don't affect the amount of damage done in combat, but they most
>certainly DO have a significant effect on combat. Imagine two characters,
>identical except for their attacks. The attacks do the same amount of
>damage (say, 12d6); one has the 0 END Advantage, the other has the
>equivalent points put into his END. I'd lay odds that the one with the 0
>END would be fighting long after his clone. (Is this a straw man
>argument?) A man with a bow without range mods can snipe all day at a man
>with a sword, though their weapons might do the same damage. I just don't
>know that I would ignore the tactical advantages in favor of advantages
>that cause damage.
Keep in mind that this is only used for Active Point Maxima. The guy with 0
END Advantage is still has to pay more for his power, though he might get a
break by selling back some END. In your example above, remember that the
guy who paid extra for END gets to use that END with all his powers, while
the guy with 0 END also has to buy it for his other Powers, or else he still
needs to buy extra END.
BTW: I can't claim that I invented the above system. It came from either a
Hero Almanac or one of the Adventure Club Magazines. The article was not
really dealing with Active Point Cost Limits, but with how powerful a
character really was.
I wanted all my player characters to be similar in Power levels, which is
difficult in out diverse group. Using flat Active Point limits just do not
work!! They turn something like an Area Affect attack into something that
only works against against agents and normals. I didn't want to make
certain Advantages such that players would not bother with them.
I suppose I could have limited the Damage Class, but that can get weird for
a number of Powers. Using the above method worked very well for me, and I
simply wanted to share it with others.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:27:07 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>If you can't hold a Phase during the Flash Effect, thus avoiding one Phase
>>of being Flashed, then add a Phase to the above examples ... but if you
>>don't get 6 Segments, then you better time it right, or you still won't
>>affect a Speed 2 character!!
>
> You do if someone else attempts an attack against said character while
>he's Flashed....
Good point!! I was thinking in terms of the character doing something.
Even if the Flash was short enough to only last between a characters
segments, it would still have an affect on DCV in those segments.
I still don't like it ... but now that I think about it, I was not fond of
the 4th. edition Flash when it first came out either. :-) Chuckle, bottom
line is that I'm just going to have to try it out to see if it works or not.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:30:07 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: A really bizarre request
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 9:03 AM
Subject: A really bizarre request
>Okay, so this is a strange question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
>
>At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
>stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
>something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
>making.
>
>Here's the current cast:
>The Nefarious Dr. Zing
>The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
>The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
>The Invincible Dr. Thunder
>The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper
>
>(yes, we added the epithets).
>
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on this list has seen similar sodas in
>their local grocery stores, and is so, what?
>
>Oh, and yes, we will probably be turning this bunch into a fully written
>up super-team.
The main supermarket in the Rochester, NY area is Wegmans, and they sell
"Dr. W."
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:34:33 -0500
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
Subject: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Michael Sprague wrote:
> >>> Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs
> >>> for Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups
> >>> at their base level.
> >>> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
> >>> not Phases.
> >>
> >>Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash was
> >>always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like this
> >>way of fixing it at all.
> >>
> >>This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say you
> >>get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
> >>Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to lose
> 2
> >>Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase, while
> a
> >>Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment the
> >>Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
> >
> >Not the only place where that happens. Have a force field. Or be
> drowning.
>
> I follow the drowning, but I'm not sure it's really the same thing, unless
> your drowning while actively engaged in combat. Normally if drowning, it's
> really a good idea to voluntarially drop your Speed to 2, which will lesson
> the effect. When Flashed, it's probably a good idea keep your Speed the
> same, as I see no real advantage in dropping it.
Ummmm I thought your speed was always your SPD? no matter whether
you choose to act this number of times or rest during the intermittant phases?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:39:44 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>So normals will be almost unaffected by a flash which is actually MORE
>>effective against supers.
>
> Not quite. It only *appears* that way to you, because the only thing
>you're taking into consideration is the respective affected characters' own
>action phases. However, in my experience, being at reduced DCV versus
>others' attacks is actually the more significant effect of a Flash, and by
>quite a bit.
While I now agree with most of this, it has been my experience that losing
phases has been far more significant then the half DCV ... which is why I
was arguing it the way I was. In general, I have usually seen Flash used
for that specific purpose. With the new rule, the half DCV will indeed be
the significant thing ... and maybe that's not a bad thing.
>>So basicly a Flash that does a Body of 10 now gets just about everybody
for
>>one turn.
>
> That's about right. (And I can't think offhand of any logical reason
>that people with faster reflexes should also automatically recover more
>quickly from sensory overloads.)
I would argue that DEX is as much about faster reflexes as is SPEED. If one
can recover from being stunned or knocked out faster by having a higher
SPEED, why not sensory overload as well?
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:51:28 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>I just assumed that no one's Flashing the entire electromagnetic spectrum,
>>so if you can make your flash stop at radio waves, why not at infrared or
>>ultraviolet light?
>>
>>I though it would feel sort of like putting on sunglasses (or another sort
>>of filter): part of the spectrum disappears.
>That doesn't work because most forms of eye don't have seperate receptors
>for different frequencies. If I make a real bright flash just in the blue
>spectrum, you still can't see the red; your optic nerve is still
traumatized
>no matter how narrow the frequency.
If you were playing a genre based on hard science, I would agree. Champions
(but not the Hero System) is based on comic book heroes and comic book
science, so there is nothing wrong there with having a flash that only works
against normal sight. It really depends on the genre and the campaign
world.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:42:55 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
On 6/4/99 at 10:17 PM Michael Sprague wrote:
>I wanted all my player characters to be similar in Power levels, which is
>difficult in out diverse group. Using flat Active Point limits just do
not
>work!! They turn something like an Area Affect attack into something that
>only works against against agents and normals. I didn't want to make
>certain Advantages such that players would not bother with them.
If the ability to injure an opponent in combat is the sole criterion, then
this system works pretty well, but that's not the only thing involved in
combat. Remember, their foci are not protected by defensive powers, unless
those foci are part of a defensive power; even a low-DC area effect attack
will damage some foci. There are also bound to be some other objects in
the area that will be damaged by AE attacks. To paraphrase another famous
saying, it ain't how many DC ya go, it's how ya use 'em.
Guy
Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
"I used to think, "Mind control satellites? No way!' But now, I can't
remember what we did without 'em."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:58:03 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser
>>>I still don't like the fact that a power you attack with affects
>characters
>>>with a higher Speed to a greater degree then ones with a lower Speed.
>>>Agents better start stocking up on those Flash grenades now, since they
>will
>>>work better on Supers than on normals! :-)
>>
>>Not really. Not in absolute terms.
>
>
>In absolute terms, Flash will indeed work better on supers than normals,
>simply because Supers will have more disadvantaged Phases. I don't know
how
>more absolute you can get.
>
>~ Mike
Hmmm, obviously what you meant by absolute terms was deferent then what I
meant by absolute terms. I follow what you mean now ... though I think it's
only relevant for DCV.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:11:58 -0700
From: "Thomas Willoughby III" <Willoughby@cookeville.total-web.net>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@radiks.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 7:42 PM
Subject: Speed is SPD isnt it?
>Michael Sprague wrote:
>
>> >>> Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash/Darkness now have differing costs
>> >>> for Targeting and Nontargeting Senses, and affect entire Sense Groups
>> >>> at their base level.
>> >>> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
>> >>> not Phases.
>> >>
>> >>Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash
was
>> >>always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like
this
>> >>way of fixing it at all.
>> >>
>> >>This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say
you
>> >>get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
>> >>Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to
lose
>> 2
>> >>Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase,
while
>> a
>> >>Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment
the
>> >>Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
>> >
>> >Not the only place where that happens. Have a force field. Or be
>> drowning.
While it is true that this system would less-penalize the attacks of a
faster hero, the old one penalized the slower hero even worse! Flashed for 3
phases is bad when you have a 5 Spd, not that horrible at a 6, but downright
shattering if you only have a 3! This is more fair, I feel.
More importantly, recall that it's only your attacks that matter, in terms
of 'phases lost', here. A slower hero *needs* his few phases, because he
won't get a chance to make up for lost time if flashed. The big hit is in
DCV, since a blind character's defense is shot for the entire time period
instead of wearing off during his phase. That's a nasty setup for a team to
pummel some poor foe into the dirt.
>> I follow the drowning, but I'm not sure it's really the same thing,
unless
>> your drowning while actively engaged in combat. Normally if drowning,
it's
>> really a good idea to voluntarially drop your Speed to 2, which will
lesson
>> the effect. When Flashed, it's probably a good idea keep your Speed the
>> same, as I see no real advantage in dropping it.
>
>Ummmm I thought your speed was always your SPD? no matter whether
>you choose to act this number of times or rest during the intermittant
phases?
Sort of. You can choose to lower your speed, if you wish, in post-segment
12. This is normally only done while drowning, but I'm sure there are other
uses, too.
- -- Old Dog.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:03:38 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
>> I follow the drowning, but I'm not sure it's really the same thing,
unless
>> your drowning while actively engaged in combat. Normally if drowning,
it's
>> really a good idea to voluntarially drop your Speed to 2, which will
lesson
>> the effect. When Flashed, it's probably a good idea keep your Speed the
>> same, as I see no real advantage in dropping it.
>
>Ummmm I thought your speed was always your SPD? no matter whether
>you choose to act this number of times or rest during the intermittant
phases?
Rules for changing your SPEED can be found on page 139. You can find
optional rules for changing SPEED (which we use) on page 140.
Drowning/holding breath rules (page 167) specifically allow dropping your
SPEED to 2, thus reducing the amount on END one might have to spend.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:09:40 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
>Remember, their foci are not protected by defensive powers, unless
>those foci are part of a defensive power; even a low-DC area effect attack
>will damage some foci. There are also bound to be some other objects in
>the area that will be damaged by AE attacks. To paraphrase another famous
>saying, it ain't how many DC ya go, it's how ya use 'em.
I agree. No offence intended, but it's also pretty irrelevant. You have
this "problem" if there are no active point limits. You have it with flat
active point limits. You also have it in my system. That's simply a fact
of the game.
My main goal was to have a general consistent power level from character to
character (though one could choose to be weaker if one desired), and for
this purpose, it worked very well.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:18:34 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
>While it is true that this system would less-penalize the attacks of a
>faster hero, the old one penalized the slower hero even worse! Flashed for
3
>phases is bad when you have a 5 Spd, not that horrible at a 6, but
downright
>shattering if you only have a 3! This is more fair, I feel.
Fair? I disagree! What is "fair" about penalizing the guy who pays more
points more then the guy who pays less?
In the old system, a slower hero was _not_ penalized any worse ... both
characters would lose the same number of Phases. The slower character was
half DCV longer. Now the faster character loses more phases, but both are
half DCV for the same length of time.
Note however that _players_ of low Speed characters will not be as
frustrated with the new rules when their character gets flashed. That may
be more important then what is fair or is not.
Damn! The more I argue this, the less I dislike the new rule. :-)
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:27:28 -0500
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Active Point Limits (was Fwd: [we-be-games] 5th Ed. Teaser)
On 6/4/99 at 11:09 PM Michael Sprague wrote:
>>Remember, their foci are not protected by defensive powers, unless
>>those foci are part of a defensive power; even a low-DC area effect
attack
>>will damage some foci. There are also bound to be some other objects in
>>the area that will be damaged by AE attacks. To paraphrase another
famous
>>saying, it ain't how many DC ya go, it's how ya use 'em.
>
>
>I agree. No offence intended, but it's also pretty irrelevant. You have
>this "problem" if there are no active point limits. You have it with flat
>active point limits. You also have it in my system. That's simply a fact
>of the game.
>
>My main goal was to have a general consistent power level from character
to
>character (though one could choose to be weaker if one desired), and for
>this purpose, it worked very well.
I probably stated my case badly. I'm glad your system works for you, and I
have no doubts that it does. We just seem to disagree how important those
seemingly-less-useful advantages are in comba, with regard to character
generationt. I haven't had any problems with the active point limits, and
the characters haven't seemed to be handicapped in combat; it just alters
the strategies and tactics involved, and in most cases the outcome of the
combat. Your experience has probably just been different from mine.
Guy
Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
"I used to think, "Mind control satellites? No way!' But now, I can't
remember what we did without 'em."
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #376
*****************************
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:11 PM