Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 385
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:32 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #385
champ-l-digest Thursday, June 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 385
In this issue:
Re: Different Powers, same effects [was Instant Change]
Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
Re: Instant Change
Re: Instant Change
Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Cruelty to Animals (was The Mummy)
Re: Fantasy HERO Magical Treasure Conversion
Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Re: Swapping stats
Re: The Mummy
Re: The Mummy
Re: The Mummy
Re: The Mummy
Re: The Mummy
Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
Re: The Mummy
Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
Re: Swapping stats
Re: CHAR: Chthonian (Whole lot of shaking goin' on)
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: New Limitation: Power runs on STUN
Re: Automata
Re: Instant Change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:02:04 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Different Powers, same effects [was Instant Change]
- -----Original Message-----
From: AndMat3@aol.com <AndMat3@aol.com>
>using a 1d6 transformation to turn my blue oxford shirt in to 100pd/ed
chain
>mail is an abuse ... perhaps even rules raping gone to seed. And that was
my
>point.
>
that's about transform, not powers in general. and hell, what if transform
was revised
into a sort of vpp? either way, it's not illegal to duplicate mechanics, or
have multiple writeups
of the same sfx- in fact, it's part of the fun.
>There are few rules in the book that are absolute. I believe that most
>everything
>is up to the GM.
>
>andy
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:11:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> > >21 Summon Earthquakes: TK: 10 STR, AoE: Radius x16 (+2),
> > > Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END (+1/4), No Range (-1/2), Only
> > > affects things in or on the ground (-1/2), Only can be used to
> > > simulate the effects of an earthquake (-1), END 2
> > Isn't it somewhat redundant to have: Only affects things in or on
> > the ground (-1/2) and Only can be used to simulate the effects of an
> > earthquake (-1), since Earthquakes only Affect things in or on the Ground?
> Well, I was trying to break down the limitations of the TK into smaller
> values as opposed to one big -2 lim of "Must act like an Earthquake".
Doesn't that make the power very cheap for something very
effective?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:12:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On 9 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > | Now, if Transformation can't be used to turn a stick into a sword, then
> > | what do you sue Transform for? And, what power would be used to turn a
> > | stick into a sword?
> > You cannot use Transformation to as a means of giving yourself powers that
> > you have not paid for. That is, you cannot (as per my examples) routinely
> > use a minimum-cost Transformation to give yourself much more expensive
> > powers.
> So, what about a Fantasy Hero setting where you don't have to pay for a
> HKA sword? What then?
I would allow a Transform Stick to Sword in Fantasy HERO without
the playing having to pay points for HKA as long as it was a mundane
sword.
In a Superheroic campagin, I would require a VPP for the various
effects of Transform.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:38 +1000
From: "happyelf" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
what about mental illusions? seem the likely one for clouding mensminds.
otherwise, why could a weak-willed thug put on
a set of nighvision goggles and see shady?
(unless invisibility was bought with a 'ego roll to resist',
which is a set of limitations i hope somebody writes into champs)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Instant Change
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Wed, 09 Jun 1999
>| I have to debate this point as always; it may be illegal to use one power
to
>| precisely copy another power in the effect sense, but there are plenty of
>| cases where it's not only legitimate, but proper to buy something called
>| 'invisibilitily' with a power other than the one called Invisibility.
>
>That is because "invisibility" is a special effect. The Shadow might use
>Mind Control to make those around him believe they cannot see him. On the
>other hand, "clouding the minds" of a room full of people is incredibly
>expensive to do with Mind Control; Invisibility with the special effect of
>"clouding men's minds" might be the most appropriate power to use.
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
>Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
>iD8DBQE3XxeKgl+vIlSVSNkRAgkYAJ4zvrTvu9feAkUr0L5Vl249WQBlHACg0YvT
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>=YwcX
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>
>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include
an
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell
to
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:19:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> > > >21 Summon Earthquakes: TK: 10 STR, AoE: Radius x16 (+2),
> > > > Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END (+1/4), No Range (-1/2), Only
> > > > affects things in or on the ground (-1/2), Only can be used to
> > > > simulate the effects of an earthquake (-1), END 2
> > > Isn't it somewhat redundant to have: Only affects things in or on
> > > the ground (-1/2) and Only can be used to simulate the effects of an
> > > earthquake (-1), since Earthquakes only Affect things in or on the Ground?
> > Well, I was trying to break down the limitations of the TK into smaller
> > values as opposed to one big -2 lim of "Must act like an Earthquake".
>
> Doesn't that make the power very cheap for something very
> effective?
Okay, what limitations would you apply to the power? Would you build it
some other way?
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man
of some sense to know how to lie well."
Samuel Butler
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:58:51 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Not quite right; Flash is now 5 points/die. So the SPD 6 characters
> will end up recovering the same from a Hero5 12d6 Flash (average 12
> segments) as from a Hero4 6d6 Flash (average 6 Phases, which for them is 12
> segments). Characters with greater than 6 SPD will end up being Flashed
> under Hero5 for longer than they would have been under Hero4 (12 segments
> vs 6 segments, respectively).
Ah, the cost change was something that I had missed. Although, you
would probarly find that many people would use the "free" points to give
the flash an AoE. 5 points per die makes an AoE flash now a viable
attack form for your 60 points.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 02:14:43 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | But I /have/ paid character points for it. I paid for a Transfer from
> | END to END Reserve.
>
> There is a "right way" to charge an END Reserve: buying Recovery for it.
That is ONE way of doing it. Look at absorbation. That can be feed
into an end reserve. Transfer should be able to as well. Thats not to
say that you dont have a recovery amount for the reserve. Aid and
transfer provide a boost to the normal recharge rate.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:48:15 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cruelty to Animals (was The Mummy)
At 10:10 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, geoff heald wrote:
>> At 06:18 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> I once travelled (RPG here and not IRL) with a mage who had a "pouch of
>> throwing kittens". Not much damage, but guarenteed to ruin concentration.
>
> ...in HoL, you have a "special weapon" known as the "Kitty-Kitty
>Bang-Bang" which is dynamite strapped on to the back of a cat.
> It's popular not because it has exceptionally potent explosives or
>an advanced delivery system, but because it's for sick people who like to
>blow up cats.
A classic Karnak bit:
A: Siss Boom Baa.
Q: Describe the sound of an exploding sheep.
(I just *know* this is going to inspire something just as demented in
someone's game....)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:33:22 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy HERO Magical Treasure Conversion
At 09:10 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> mentioned is coming in Hero5 (and which some GMs use anyway), which allows
>> a Power to be bought with a fixed effect equal to 3 points per die.
>> Rounding off a bit, 10 pips worth of Aid can be bought for the equivalent
>> of 3d6; raise the Max Increase to 100, and possibly throw in a Limitation
>> that the Aid goes away instantly when the Skill Levels are used.
>> Would that work?
>
> Can you AID Luck and Skill Levels? If so, then this might be the
>"best" construct. Still, the issue of Charges, 0 END, or END Reserve
>remains.
From what I remember of the original description, Charges would probably
be the best way to go. 100 charges would be a +3/4 Advantage, but Charges
Do Not Recover is a -2 Limitation.
> Also, how would I set the "time limit" or would that automatically
>be incorporated into the AID?
I think that would be automatically incorporated into the Aid and the
"one use only" Limitation. (Was there a fixed time limit to using the
bonus in the original description? I don't remember....)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:40:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speed is SPD isnt it?
At 01:58 AM 6/3/1999 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Not quite right; Flash is now 5 points/die. So the SPD 6 characters
>> will end up recovering the same from a Hero5 12d6 Flash (average 12
>> segments) as from a Hero4 6d6 Flash (average 6 Phases, which for them is 12
>> segments). Characters with greater than 6 SPD will end up being Flashed
>> under Hero5 for longer than they would have been under Hero4 (12 segments
>> vs 6 segments, respectively).
>
> Ah, the cost change was something that I had missed. Although, you
>would probarly find that many people would use the "free" points to give
>the flash an AoE. 5 points per die makes an AoE flash now a viable
>attack form for your 60 points.
Yes, it quite does. AoE Flashes virtually died out among my characters
(among published characters as well, IIRC) because a 3d6 AoE Flash, the
"normal" level in the 12-DC setting of the Champions Universe, is useless
where a typical Flash Defense is 5 pips. Now, at 6d6, such a Flash will
still typically get 1 segment past the defense, which is just enough for
the Flashing character's allies to knock the enemies (who are at 1/2 DCV)
around on an initial volley.
(True, a similar effect could've been done by doubling the cost of Flash
Defense, but then that would've thrown off the balance with Mental and
Power Defense as regards AVLD.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:58:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
At 09:46 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>[...]
>| Ignoring the ridiculousness of the first remark for the time being, I've
>| seen plenty of cases in fiction (movies, TV, novels) where characters had
>| reason to turn a weapon on themselves. One of the clearest examples is a
>| recent story where a "loose cannon" cop shot herself so she'd have an
>| injury to take to an unlicensed back-alley surgeon that she and her partner
>| were looking for. Then there are the various Klingon self-mutilation
>| rites, and similar rites in other fictional and even real-world
>| religions....
>
>Does the loose cannon cop shoot herself every chapter/episode as a means to
>solving the case at hand? Do Klingons mutilate themselves every episode?
>Do the followers of said religions mutilate (or whatever) themselves every
>day? No, they do not. None of these are "normal" actions in the Champions
>sense of normal: routine, commonplace, etc.
Where do you get that definition? I'm not even going to bother
suggesting that it's written down in the BBB anywhere, or in any previous
edition of the rules for that matter; we both know it isn't. But where is
it even suggested that something must be routine or commonplace to have a
place in the rules?
The HERO System is, in large part, specifically designed to represent
those things which are *not* routine or commonplace. Of course, I don't
think for a moment that you're suggesting that people throwing energy
discharges from their hands is actually a routine or commonplace thing in
real life; obviously, you're talking about routine and commonplace in
comics (although the HERO System is also used for the simulation of novels,
television, movies, and other media by which adventure fiction is
distributed).
Right now, my BBB and Ultimate books are under a bunch of things that
need to be not disturbed at present, or I'd wade through them and pick out
a bunch of rules that represent things that are less routine and
commonplace than the above (the only one that comes to mind without
consultation is Ego Powers based on PRE, which to my mind would be a
perfect modifier for the Jedi mind-control trick).
The real point is this: turning a weapon on oneself for purposes other
than suicide does take place with some regularity in fiction, and it
certainly does in real life. Thus, it would be helpful to have an
allowance for it in the rules.
I mean, what if a weaponeer in your campaign was in the same kind of
situation as the above-mentioned cop?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:46:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
At 09:29 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>At 05:12 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 07:19 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, Jason Schneiderman wrote:
>>>>> So... just why _did_ his player decide to buy "Fastdraw: Housecat"?
>:-)
>>>
>>>Another scene from that movie inspired me to take the "Hurl Inanimate
>>>Object with Panache" skill for my pulp hero. :)
>>
>> Pardon this cut-in from someone who hasn't seen the movie, and probably
>>won't, but since when is a housecat inanimate when being thrown?
>>
>
>Well, he did say it was _another_ scene which inspired him....
Quite right. I'd missed that. Never mind. :#]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:09:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 jayphailey@juno.com wrote:
> >> Why not?
> >
> >Uhm... 'cause I've got a mess of other projects I'm working on? And
> >having talked to Steve L, I think some of his powers will work better
> >under 5th Edition?
> >
> >I'll keep him in mind though.
> Please do. I enjoy your interpretations of characters in HSR form
Aww... shucks, yer embarassing me...
Oh, my next adaptions will be an attempt to clear out some backlog of
characters I had started and then set aside. Probably the first will be a
rather famous individual.
"...a man barely alive. We can rebuild him..."
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater
than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek
not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds
you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:13:42 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
> "...a man barely alive. We can rebuild him..."
So you will answer the age-old question, "Are cheesy sound effects a
Limitation or a Disadvantage?"
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
> > "...a man barely alive. We can rebuild him..."
>
> So you will answer the age-old question, "Are cheesy sound effects a
> Limitation or a Disadvantage?"
Nope, the novel doesn't have cheesy sound effect. (Yes, this will be the
original Martin Caidin version, not the TV version.)
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater
than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek
not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds
you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:16:02 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
Jason Schneiderman says:
>At 8:56 AM 6/9/99, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Daniel P. Pawtowski wrote:
>>>So... just why _did_ his player decide to buy "Fastdraw: Housecat"? :-)
>
>Another scene from that movie inspired me to take the "Hurl Inanimate
>Object with Panache" skill for my pulp hero. :)
Naw. It's an EB or a RKA with a OAF. Panache is just
the SFX...:)
- -S
S A Rudy http://www.eclipse.net/~srudy
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what |
| feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist |
| whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from |
| a doormat or a prostitute." -- Rebecca West, 1913 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:33:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
At 02:16 PM 6/10/1999 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: The Mummy
>
>On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
>
>> > "...a man barely alive. We can rebuild him..."
>>
>> So you will answer the age-old question, "Are cheesy sound effects a
>> Limitation or a Disadvantage?"
>
>Nope, the novel doesn't have cheesy sound effect. (Yes, this will be the
>original Martin Caidin version, not the TV version.)
I wasn't even aware that there was a novel on which the series had been
based.
(And FWIW cheesy sound effects are SFX.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> > "...a man barely alive. We can rebuild him..."
> >>
> >> So you will answer the age-old question, "Are cheesy sound effects a
> >> Limitation or a Disadvantage?"
> >
> >Nope, the novel doesn't have cheesy sound effect. (Yes, this will be the
> >original Martin Caidin version, not the TV version.)
>
> I wasn't even aware that there was a novel on which the series had been
> based.
> (And FWIW cheesy sound effects are SFX.)
The novel was entitled "Cyborg" and was written by Martin Caidin in 1972.
I think it is the origin of the word 'cyborg' and possibly of the term
'bionics' (although I could be wrong). Basically, he's the granddaddy of
Cyborg (DC Comics), Kiddy Phenil (Silent Mobius), HalfJack (Champions),
Deathloc (Marvel), Battle Angel (Gunm) and a host of other characters.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater
than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek
not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds
you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:40:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
On 9 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
> | But I /have/ paid character points for it. I paid for a Transfer from
> | END to END Reserve.
>
> There is a "right way" to charge an END Reserve: buying Recovery for it.
The 'right way' to recover END and STUN is to buy Recovery. Does that
mean I can't buy Aid: END or Aid: Stun? I can't put my Absorbtion or
Transfer to END or STUN?
I see nothing in the BBB that says 'you can't use Adjustment Powers on
the END or STUN stats', and at least one section (under AID, where it
discusses Healing) that contradicts that theory.
If I want the effects of a Transfer (it takes points from someone else's
stat and puts it into my stat) then I ought to buy the Transfer, because
that's the 'right' way of doing it.
> [...]
> | Does this mean that I could not use an HKA on myself? Is seppuku
> | impossible in Ninja Hero? If you can normally use attack powers on
> | yourself, why is Transfer an exception?
>
> There is no such thing as an "attack power".
Fine. "If you can normally attack yourself, why is Transfer an exception?"
> And I find the idea of
> suicide as anything but "normal".
And your point? You still don't have to pay extra points to use it on
yourself as well as on other people. As a matter of fact, you could
probably get a significant Limitaiton for 'self only' (a self-destruct
charge for example). Why should you pay extra points to be able to use a
Transfer on yourself as well as on other people?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:49:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
On 9 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 09 Jun 1999
> | It occurs to me that the "right way" to the above would be to buy REC
> | for the END Reserve, but make the REC cost personal END.
>
> Yep, and I am kicking myself for not noticing something that obvious.
Except that then you can't drain END from other people to power your wand,
which (if you look back) I specified.
And the meat of the argument was, why should I have to pay twice for the
same power? (draining END from a person to power the wand)
> [...]
> | Ignoring the ridiculousness of the first remark for the time being, I've
> | seen plenty of cases in fiction (movies, TV, novels) where characters had
> | reason to turn a weapon on themselves. One of the clearest examples is a
> | recent story where a "loose cannon" cop shot herself so she'd have an
> | injury to take to an unlicensed back-alley surgeon that she and her partner
> | were looking for. Then there are the various Klingon self-mutilation
> | rites, and similar rites in other fictional and even real-world
> | religions....
>
> Does the loose cannon cop shoot herself every chapter/episode as a means to
> solving the case at hand? Do Klingons mutilate themselves every episode?
> Do the followers of said religions mutilate (or whatever) themselves every
> day? No, they do not. None of these are "normal" actions in the Champions
> sense of normal: routine, commonplace, etc.
So if I create a character that shoots himself (or stabs himself) every
day for fun (let's say he has Regeneration), he has to buy a separate
power to do that?
What if he's got a power that lets him control his severed limbs (a la
Yakumo from 3x3 Eyes). If he wanted to sever his own hand (as opposed to
having it happen in combat), would the magic sword he paid points for be
useless?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:50:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Upcoming from Surbrook (was The Mummy)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 02:16 PM 6/10/1999 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
> >> So you will answer the age-old question, "Are cheesy sound effects a
> >> Limitation or a Disadvantage?"
> >
> >Nope, the novel doesn't have cheesy sound effect. (Yes, this will be the
> >original Martin Caidin version, not the TV version.)
>
> I wasn't even aware that there was a novel on which the series had been
> based.
I thinkt he title is _Cyborg_, but i'm not sure.
> (And FWIW cheesy sound effects are SFX.)
Yah. Although if the power isn't normally noticable you could probably
buy the Visible limitation on it...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:12:36 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: The Mummy
>> >> >I just saw "The Mummy". Good lord, Imhotep is a buttload of points...
>> >>
>> >> I vote power pool... was a really cool character though :)
>> >
>> >Actually, maybe not. He had a rather specific EC of 'sand powers',
>> >including Desolid (turns to sand), Darkness (summon sandstorm), Teleport
>> >(turn to sand and blow away) and a nasty BODY Drain that "Affects the Real
>> >World" (sandblasting the corpse). The 10 Biblical plagues are probably a
>> >mega-sized Multipower. He can Summon mummies, create a massive sandstorm
>>
>> Actually the plagues were not his work, I would call that external, like a
>> function of the book or curse, not himself.
>
>Yes, but he did summon the swarm of flies at will and turned everyone that
>was afflicted with boils nad sores into one of his slaves.
True, certainly a whopping mind control (but low Real Point cost... he only
cast it once every few millenia, that has to be worth something).
>> >(TK and Darkness) and has a 25-30 STR. Since he's 'immortal' he has LS:
>> >Aging and probably can't be killed (Lots of BODY, Damage Reduction etc).
>> >It said that 'no mortal weapon can hurt him', so it's likely that magic
>> >spells would still do damage (since, technically, that's what killed him).
>>
>> Looked like regen until he was fully healed (keyed to eating people who
>> woke him), he is an automoton too.
>
>Is he? I mean, automotons don't take STUN (which would help) but they
>don't have an EGO either, and he sure as heck has an EGO and freewill.
True, automoton is the wrong word, but he did have the full set of "does
not's" which you CAN have EGO with (I build most of my intelligent undead
with these, such as Liches and Vampires).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:13:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Chthonian (fwd)
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> > > > >21 Summon Earthquakes: TK: 10 STR, AoE: Radius x16 (+2),
> > > > > Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END (+1/4), No Range (-1/2), Only
> > > > > affects things in or on the ground (-1/2), Only can be used to
> > > > > simulate the effects of an earthquake (-1), END 2
> > > > Isn't it somewhat redundant to have: Only affects things in or on
> > Doesn't that make the power very cheap for something very
> > effective?
> Okay, what limitations would you apply to the power? Would you build it
> some other way?
Since
Only can be used to simulate the effects of an earthquake (-1)
and
Only affects things in or on the ground (-1/2)
is somewhat redundant,
since
the effect of Earthquakes Only affect things in or on the ground.
Only affects thing along a surface (-1/2) has popped up a Champions book
before. To affect something within the earth, or to traverse a distance
between a solid, you would need Indirect (+1/4 suggested).
Since the Earthquake only effects some objects, not all objects, you can
expand the Limitation to: Only objects that are fixed to a surface (-1/2),
since an earthquake isn't likely to affect objects sitting on a plain- a
person or a car, for example- except to shake the hell out of it. Humans
are usually hurt by falling debris, and are otherwise impeded by the
vibration.
Also, since the Cthonian may or may not be able to specifically target
areas, you can add the Limitations: Beam Attack/Can only be used at full
power (-1/4), Cannot move in Phase when power is used (-1/4), Cannot use
targeting with power to strike specific hit locations/Effects entire
object (-1/2)
If you wish to simply damage objects, and leave the "shaking" as
SFX, use Energy Blast.
If you wish to have better control over the objects in question,
use TK with less Limitations.
You might also want to Link an EB anyhow, with the Trigger: When
when damage exceeds maxium BODY of an object, and the Limitations: Damage
based on DEF/BODY of falling debris, Only to represent debris.
To represent the pinning effect of debris, use Entangle with
appropiate limitations (Entangle negated if objects/debris are lifted off,
etc.)
You may be able to bastardize Entangle to represent the effect of
the shaking ground, but that would mean going down the road of Slipping
and Oil Slicks.
That's all I can think of so far.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:17:53 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
>| Does using Aid on oneself, then, not require an attack roll and get to
>| be used as a zero-phase action? Or how does that work, in your campaign?
>
>That is just about the size of it.
>
>Now you begin to see why I believe Aid should cost much more than it does.
If I remember correctly AID ended up about 6 pts per die when I built it
using straight stats, so 5 is a little low. But 10 is a little HIGH too, I
would rather have a structure like 2D6/15 pts, but that gets a lil hairy
for math. There probably is no way to cost Aid that will make people
happy. I have allowed people free access to Aid (including using it to
give powers not normally had for half effect (like draining DEF)) and it
never was a problem. Of course nobody made AID MAN either (multipowers of
Aid granting superpowers).
5 character points, Usable vs others (+1); costs END (-1/2), fades 5/turn
(-1/4), Only to enhance powers (-1/2), Random Effect (-1/4)
were some of the parts, I don't really remember how I simulated Instant or
the fade, but it should be around 6 points when it was done
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:18:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Chthonian (Whole lot of shaking goin' on)
Shaking = Dex Drain, Limitation: Does not effect flying characters
or characters who are some how shielded from vibration (-1/2)
So, KB Resistance, Clinging, Flight, exceptional weight (DI), aand
Growth might be effects that negate (partially or wholly) the effects of a
DEX Drain.
The shaking could also be Knockdown damage.
The TK could be defined to: Only damage fixed objects and shake
(Knockdown) objects along it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:19:43 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
>| But I /have/ paid character points for it. I paid for a Transfer from
>| END to END Reserve.
>
>There is a "right way" to charge an END Reserve: buying Recovery for it.
>
>[...]
>| Does this mean that I could not use an HKA on myself? Is seppuku
>| impossible in Ninja Hero? If you can normally use attack powers on
>| yourself, why is Transfer an exception?
>
>There is no such thing as an "attack power". And I find the idea of
>suicide as anything but "normal".
True, but you have to admit he has a valid point there. Especially
considering that technically in the rules you hurt yourself by default if
you use an area effect attact at no range (??)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> Fine. "If you can normally attack yourself, why is Transfer an exception?"
Using the same logic of:
You may not use Absorbtion with your own attack power.
Transfering one statistic to another would be considered an
abusive construct.
Why? "Self-feeding" powers, such as the infamous Drain/VPP, let
you exceed the balance of power, either because they make the character
"too flexible", therefore rendering the character's statistics useless
because they become infinitely interchangeable and mutable (i.e. "raw"
character points).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:28:24 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Power runs on STUN
At 08:58 PM 6/9/99 -0400, Michael Sprague wrote:
>I was browsing through an old SpaceGamer magazine (December 1988), where I
>ran across an article on new Powers, Advantages and Limitations for
>Champions, written by Steve Fulleman. Most of them can be handled by the
>existing rules (article is pre-4th ed.) in different ways, but the
>Limitation (called a Disadvantage in the article) "Power runs on STUN"
>looked quite interesting.
>
>While I doubt I would use it exactly as written, following is the exact text
>from the article.
>
>- - - - - - - - - -
>
>Disadvantage-Power runs on STUN:
>
> Powers that normally cost END to use can be converted to use STUN point
>instead. Such powers may not have their STUN/END cost reduced to less than
>2 STUN, or 1/4 normal, whichever is greater. Similarly, such powers may not
>run on END/STUN batteries, or on charges.
>
>Disadvantage Total: -1/4
>
>- - - - - - - - - -
>
>I find this a usable idea, though I think it would be worth a bit more than
>a -1/4 Limitation ... possibly even -1. One could allow the 1/2 Reduced END
>Advantage on this, but not 0 END, for obvious reasons. Not using END
>batteries is also a good rule.
I would say its worth more than -1/4, because of several things. First,
STN costs x2 as much as END (thats worth a -1/2 in the book double END
Cost), and because when you run out of END you tire out and use STN, but
when you run out of STN you faw down go boom. Thus it is more catastrophic
and more expensive to use STN than END. I would say this is worth at LEAST
- -1/2. But I dont know why the rule limits your ability to buy down the
points, if something costs 0 END it still can be pushed (is it REALLY worth
10 STN to you?).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:30:03 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Automata
At 09:05 PM 6/9/99 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Followup questions: Do 3 levels of Density Increase for an automaton give +3
>PD/ED or +1 PD/ED? How much does Damage Resistance for 6 PD/ED cost: 6, or
>18?
for what it's worth I ignore that 3x rule. You are a fool not to buy
normal PD/ED in a superhero campaign even if you DONT take STN because the
energy blasts will rip you to shreds if you dont.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:32:27 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change
>* Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com> on Wed, 09 Jun 1999
>| Now, if Transformation can't be used to turn a stick into a sword, then
>| what do you sue Transform for? And, what power would be used to turn a
>| stick into a sword?
>
>You cannot use Transformation to as a means of giving yourself powers that
>you have not paid for. That is, you cannot (as per my examples) routinely
>use a minimum-cost Transformation to give yourself much more expensive
>powers.
>
>This is why I strongly disagree with the 4th edition's lack or ruling that
>it is not allowed to give active points to a target of a Transformation.
>At the very least there is no correlation between the power of the
>Transformation and the active points given to the target. As it stands
>now, a 60-point Major Transformation can just as easilly turn a normal
>person into a 1000-point monster as it can turn him into a lump of rock.
That is why I put a number on the active points you can give: Transform can
only grant active points totalling the maximum that the dice can roll (so
if it is a 12D6 transform, you can give 60 AP total to the target). This
makes cumulative transforms much much more limitation and keeps people from
doing just what you said above. Nobody ever TRIED It in a game I ran, I
just didn't like them being able to.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #385
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:12 PM