Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 398
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 2:15 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #398
champ-l-digest Tuesday, June 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 398
In this issue:
Re: Teleport & Extra Mass
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Space Battleship
Re: Adjustment Powers/Elemental Control/SFX
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Hero site & web design trends
Re: Data using contractions
RE: Swapping stats
RE: Teleport & Extra Mass
RE: Teleport & Extra Mass
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
RE: Data using contractions
New Power Advantage:Innate
RE: Data using contractions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:34:04 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Teleport & Extra Mass
At 08:59 AM 6/15/99 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>Suppose I have bought Teleport Usable Against Others
>with Extra Mass*. Can I teleport an entire truck filling more than one
hex ?
>Or do I have to buy area effect as well ?
Seems to me that Extra Mass controls how much weight you can carry with the
power and extra area tells how big a zone you can lift that total mass in
(so you dont have to touch it, it can be anything in that area.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:44:10 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
At 08:28 AM 6/15/99 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>At 01:54 AM 6/15/99 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:
>>> And that's a flaw with Darkness, IMO. It's too hard to make a large one
>>> compared to every other power in the game.
>>
>>Not quite true: Force Wall, if memory serves, is worse. It goes up by
>>circumference in linear progression. At least Darkness goes up by
>>radius.
>
>I left force wall the way it is, but I changed Darkness, Images, and Change
>Environment because their area effect rules blow. Each one has NO area,
>affecting only a single target. To affect an area, simply use the AE rules
>as printed for any other power.
That causes a problem with Change Environment, though. A 60 active point
CE using this system, doubling the radius for every +1/4, has over a
billion mile radius (2^40 inches) - roughly the distance from the Earth to
Saturn. It's even worse with the system others have proposed, where CE
starts with an area affect as usual, but doubles with each +1/4 advantage;
that more than covers the Solar System.
Consistent cost structures are nice, but in this case I think there's a
good reason for different systems. The ability to alter the environment on
multiple planets seems a little out of proportion to other 60 point powers;
can you imagine power gamers sticking one of these CE's in every multipower?
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:02:37 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Space Battleship
Hey Bob! Have I got a challenge for you and TUV! And anybody else who want's
to give this a crack. ^_^
So I'm going through my copy of Ultimate Mentalist and there's this
reasonably well designed space frigate in there. And I am reminded of a
certain anime show I have always loved - Starblazers. (Or, in the original
Japanese - Uchu Senkan Yamato or "Space Battleship Yamato".)
I did some idle thinking on how to write up the Argo (Yamato) in Hero System
terms, and decided to take it to the list for some feedback and advice.
There's a lot of different things to cover when designing the stats for the
Argo. In my opinion, the Argo is just barely practical to write up in Hero.
Much bigger than that and you'd better just do it as caveat or "plot
device". I'm curious as to how TUV will handle things though.
A few things that come to mind when designing something this big.
First off, she's HUGE in comparison to most other Hero vehicles. 265.8
meters long and listed at 62,000 metric tons (she's lighter than her WWII
counterpart). She goes right off the regular size chart in the BBB. I can
extrapolate upward from the chart though, so eventually, I should find the
right size.
Okay then, here's a value that looks right in most respects:
Length: 125 Hexes
Width: 64 Hexes
Area: 8000 Hexes
Mass: 200 KTons
DCV: -16
STR: 115
Knockback: -21
BODY: 31
Okay. As a base to work from, the size mostly comes out right. Shave some
off the width to add to the length and the height and it comes out right,
with a little extra left over. Length-133", Beam-17", Height-39", would be
about right. Mass is higher than expected, but that can be fudged. The
interior area voluume also looks about right for interior space. This
doesn't include voluume, right? Just flat deckplans? How about multiple
decks? The Argo is several stories tall.
Okay. How about we limit the next bit of discussion to just the flight
characteristics? Don't worry about weapons. We'll get there later. Trust me.
^_^
So, the Argo has two basic propulsion systems. An "impulse" drive for normal
space flight, and a Wave Motion Engine for FTL flight.
30" of flight with a healthy Non-Combat multiple sounds about right for the
impulse drive.
A SPD 3 for the Ship overall seems about right for movement purposes, (but
what about all the different weapon elements? There were a LOT of different
energy weapons in turrets and missile launchers of various types and a crew
to man them all independently. She could fire her main and secondary guns
all in a "broadside" or target independently at several different targets.
How to portray this? Again, don't worry about game mechanics yet for the
various specific weapons, we'll get there in due time. I just want to know
how to portray the robust fighting capabilities of the ship in terms of how
many attacks can be targeted per turn or phase.)
The Wave Motion Engine is a bit trickier to work with, since I have a more
concrete idea of how fast the Argo traverses Interstellar (and even
intergalactic!) space. The Argo made a round trip of 296,000 Light years to
the Greater Magellenic Cloud (Straight line distance, approximately 148,000
LY) in under one year. She was opposed for the entire trip there by the
Gamilons and was thus delayed considerably. The return trip was unimpeded
for the most part and was made in a little over 3 1/2 months. From
statements made in the show and a general feel for how things worked, I am
assuming the Argo was making on average about 2 spacewarps per day.
Apparently there was a limit on how many spacewarps they could perform in a
given time due to stress on the ship and recalibration of the drive and
calculations for navigation.
With that data in mind, anyone want to take a crack at defining the Wave
Motion Engine in Hero terms?
Atter that, we get to the really interesting bits!
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
- -Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:17:30 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Adjustment Powers/Elemental Control/SFX
> The House Rule (which was introduced in an issue of AC) specified the
> Elemental Control could be Drained as a whole.
> Does this mean that other Adjustment Powers, such as Aid or
> Absorbtion, can Adjust an entire Elemental Control Framework?
I've never used that house rule, though I know of it's existence. Part of
the reason is that I don't think Adjustment Powers of other sorts should
affect it (with the possible exception of Transfer). In addition, I really
never thought Power Drain: Energy Blast should remove all of the powers from
my Magic EC (for example). If someone wants to have either of these things,
I believe it's best if they simply use the advantages to affect special
effects already in the rules: certainly, if Affects All Powers in a given
special effect is taken, it affects the whole EC (or any other power
framework, for that matter).
Sorry for not directly answering your question, though.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:32:36 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> Consistent cost structures are nice, but in this case I think there's a
> good reason for different systems. The ability to alter the environment on
> multiple planets seems a little out of proportion to other 60 point
powers;
> can you imagine power gamers sticking one of these CE's in every
multipower?
Not really: the power doesn't actually DO anything, and since you specified
Power Gamers, I can't imagine them taking the points out of something else
for a power that has no game effect to the entire solar system. They'd
consider it a waste of points.
The only reason I can't do as you say with other powers is that they have a
higher minimum cost. Therefore, if you really want to avoid the kind of
trouble you specify, you could just have the initial cost be 5 to affect a
target, 10 to affect a hex, and a +1/4 advantage thereafter to buy it up.
Then it's only a little worse than a 2d6 EB (you don't need to buy Area
Effect on it, so you do get 16x the area). Or something like that.
I think it was in the Fantasy Hero Companion that the writer designed a
spell that was weather control: it was prohibitively expensive, and, since
it was Change Environment, had no game effect. It was suggested that the
person be provided with extra points to buy this construct, because
controlling the weather over too small an area seemed odd, while doing so
over a very large area was too expensive. The writer presumably felt that
the power was too expensive compared to other powers of the same utility.
Now, while such a power does have its uses, and good ones (people will pay
well for you to make it rain, for instance), it is odd that it is so
expensive to cause a light rain and would be much less expensive for, say, a
damaging hail storm.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:39:56 -0400
From: "Matt Korth" <kalten@sandwich.net>
Subject: Re: Hero site & web design trends
> I, personally, like pull down/pop up java menus,
Java, or JavaScript? The two are only superficially related. And if all
it's being used for is site navigation, then Java is overkill. Besides,
it's possible to do what you've suggested in JavaScript (in fact,
Microsoft's website does it--though only if you're running MSIE).
> menu-search
> listings (one list of possible page choices that you can even access from
> text only non graphic non frame non java browsers like mine), and
> enter-word whole site searches.
> They take up little space and are easy to access for most users...
> even if they have their own seperate pages that you can access by clicking
> a floating javafied Hero-Hex logo button that stays at the bottom of the
> screen.
Ack! No, no, no, no, no....
Sorry 'bout that. Those little won't-go-away floating buttons are one of
my pet peeves. It's why I dropped Geocities--which has such a floating
button--into the Restricted Sites Zone in Internet Explorer (I have the
Restricted Sites Zone set up to turn "Active Scripting"--which is to say
JScript and/or JavaScript--off). That and the annoying pop-up ads (which
are also handled through JavaScript, if I'm not mistaken).
As for my opinion on the revised site? I think the black navigation bar
at the top takes up *way* too much space. Here at work it doesn't bother
me--I inherited a 21" monitor from the person I replaced on the Planner
team--but at home I've got either a 14" or 15" monitor (I don't remember
which one, offhand), which leaves me with only about 1/3 of the screen to
view the actual information on the site.
I'm also not too terribly impressed with the web designer's grasp of the
concept of "incremental revision." A significant chunk of the site's
information was offline when I visited a few minutes ago (though it seemed
to be better than last night). Why not leave the information accessible
in the old format until a reformatted version is ready, and *then* switch?
And is that entry page (http://www.herogames.com/index.html) really
necessary? It doesn't present anything significant that the second page
(http://www.herogames.com/index2.html) doesn't--though if a no-frames
version of the site is ever developed, then that sort of an entry page
*does* make sense, as it can be used to offer a frames/no-frames choice.
- --M
- --
kalten@sandwich.net http://www.sandwich.net/kalten
"Lenny, you haven't seen my sanity lying around anywhere, have you?"
--Bruno (http://www.baldwinpage.com/bruno.html)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:35:04 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Data using contractions
>> Data's behavior towards his friends reveals that yes, indeed he does
have
>> emotions, just fro some reason he doesn't think so, no will he admit
it.
>> And yes, Some times 7-of-9 is quite ruthless...
>
>Does he have emotions, though, or does he intellectually know that
>some things are 'wrong' or have unacceptable consequences - including
>social ones that 7 of 9 would not be aware of? After all, he was
'raised'
>with something akin to Federation values, while 7 of 9 wasn't...
>
>J
Data actually has "Ethics Subroutines" which implies that his Federation
ethics are prgrammed in. But Data has risked himself for his friends
often and the risk of severe harm or destruction to himself. I would
tend to think that offering one's own existence so that one's loved ones
might continue is emotional more than anything else. Not invalid but
emotional nonethe less.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:19:47 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Swapping stats
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> From: James Jandebeur [SMTP:jimalj@best.com]
>
>> However, there is nothing in that that prevents it from being
used
>> against oneself as an _abnormal_ occurrence. In other words,
this
>> isn't an argument that you can't Drain or Transfer your own
stats;
>> only that it is the wrong power for _normal_ use.
>
>Which is what the original post was about: a power that would
allow
>Strength to grow while Intelligence shrank for the Hulk-like
>Madder==Stronger effect.
Yes, but I didn't intend to defend the original post (though I
am not certain that the original idea should be illegal, just
ill-advised). I was objecting primarily to the claim that Drain and
Transfer _could not_ be used on oneself. Not just "this isn't the best
way to do it, and should be avoided", but that, if I had one of these as
a Power, I would have Personal Immunity, only when trying to shoot
myself.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:51:25 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Teleport & Extra Mass
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From: Curt Hicks [SMTP:exucurt@exu.ericsson.se]
>Suppose I have bought Teleport Usable Against Others
>with Extra Mass*. Can I teleport an entire truck filling more than
one hex ?
>Or do I have to buy area effect as well ?
I would definitely rule Extra Mass only. So long as it is a single
object, you just have to touch it.
A semi-official ruling that I read long ago (and which I cannot locate
now) described Movement Powers and the effects of AoE, UBO, and UAO like
this:
Flight, AoE. Everyone who wants to flies with you. Exactly with you; you
have full control, they have none.
Flight, AoE UBO. Everyone in area has Flight. They can fly anywhere they
want (so long as they don't leave the area granting them the Power).
They have all control.
Flight, AoE UAO. Everyone in area flies wherever you say, whether they
want to or not.
Unfortunately, this doesn't quite answer the question of Extra Mass and
AoE. My answer is the inverse of your question, actually.
Take a large object, such as a freighter, that weighs no more than
1600kg per hex. If I buy Teleportation, 1600kg Extra Mass, and AE:
Radius big enough to engulf the tanker, can I Teleport it?
Personally, I'd rule no. Since most very heavy objects take up extra
large areas, ruling that every hex gets the mass applied to it
independently just allows you to Teleport any object of any mass, so
long as it isn't super dense and fits inside your AoE.
However, I have no real problem with people who want to rule otherwise.
I just don't think the rules are clear on this one, and I think that
rule gets a bit abusive. Not too much, though, so I don't object too
much.
Filksinger
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:03:13 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Teleport & Extra Mass
Consider this. If you have an EB with AoE, you don't attack each hex within
your area, you attack each object in the area, right? Foes, friends, foci,
lunch meats, whatever. AoE doesn't keep track of how many things are in each
hex.
So, the density of the object is not important since your teleport AoE w/
extra mass does not teleport it's maximum mass per hex. It teleports every
object within the area who's mass is below your extra mass option.
Using this example. The freighter with mass well above 1600kg does not
teleport. However, depending on special effect. loose items on the frieghter
may get teleported if their mass is less than 1600kg. Each piece of grain in
the hold for instance.
Now, someone mentioned an all-or-nothing approach to this, where if you
didn't teleport everything, you teleported nothing. This seems valid. I
don't know if this is official or a house rule but in my mind it would
depend on the special effect of the teleport.
BRI
] Take a large object, such as a freighter, that weighs no more
] than 1600kg per hex. If I buy Teleportation, 1600kg Extra
] Mass, and AE: Radius big enough to engulf the tanker, can I
] Teleport it?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:04:52 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
At 09:32 AM 6/15/99 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:
>> Consistent cost structures are nice, but in this case I think there's a
>> good reason for different systems. The ability to alter the environment on
>> multiple planets seems a little out of proportion to other 60 point
>powers;
>> can you imagine power gamers sticking one of these CE's in every
>multipower?
>
>Not really: the power doesn't actually DO anything, and since you specified
>Power Gamers, I can't imagine them taking the points out of something else
>for a power that has no game effect to the entire solar system. They'd
>consider it a waste of points.
>
On that scale, it's pretty impressive as a noncombat ability. It could be
used to generate an intense magnetic field and take out every super in the
campaign with that susceptibility, plus erase most of the world's
electronically stored data. It could create enough fog to bring a halt to
solar power. It could grow food crops across the surface of multiple
planets. Making it 0 END Persistant reduces the radius to a mere 85 million
miles - enough to keep up a light rain (or clear, sunny weather, or
elevator music) across the Earth and Moon as long as the character lives.
>The only reason I can't do as you say with other powers is that they have a
>higher minimum cost. Therefore, if you really want to avoid the kind of
>trouble you specify, you could just have the initial cost be 5 to affect a
>target, 10 to affect a hex, and a +1/4 advantage thereafter to buy it up.
>Then it's only a little worse than a 2d6 EB (you don't need to buy Area
>Effect on it, so you do get 16x the area). Or something like that.
>
That might be a better approach. A 60 point CE would then have about a 1300
mile radius, which seems about right.
>I think it was in the Fantasy Hero Companion that the writer designed a
>spell that was weather control: it was prohibitively expensive, and, since
>it was Change Environment, had no game effect. It was suggested that the
>person be provided with extra points to buy this construct, because
>controlling the weather over too small an area seemed odd, while doing so
>over a very large area was too expensive. The writer presumably felt that
>the power was too expensive compared to other powers of the same utility.
>Now, while such a power does have its uses, and good ones (people will pay
>well for you to make it rain, for instance), it is odd that it is so
>expensive to cause a light rain and would be much less expensive for, say, a
>damaging hail storm.
>
I agree this is a problem in the way the current rules work. I'm not
disputing that, only pointing out the possible problems with alternative
systems.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:10:17 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Data using contractions
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Content-Type: text/plain
> From: Bill Svitavsky [SMTP:nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us]
>
<snip>
>I thought ST:TNG was terribly inconsistent on Data's emotions.
He clearly
>felt friendship for his crewmates, even if he did describe it
as "the
>pleasing effect of familiar patterns in my neural subroutines"
or somesuch.
>There was one episode I recall, though, that actually did
something with
>the concept of Data having no real emotions. He got involved in
a romance,
>then brought it to an abrupt halt with no feeling whatsoever.
Undoubtedly one of the best Data stories ever. It was kind of
interesting, looking at a guy who is perfectly content and feels no pain
whatsoever, and feel sorry for him because he _isn't_ feeling pain.
>Even more interesting were some suggestions toward the end of
the series
>that Data was designed with a subconscious. It's been a while,
but I recall
>Dr. Soong (sp.?) appearing to him in a dream filled with lots
of dreamlike
>imagery. The better Data stories dealt with the fact that
consciousness is
>a pretty complex subject, artificial or not.
Definitely.
Filksinger
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:13:54 -0400
From: Kim Foster <nexus@qx.net>
Subject: New Power Advantage:Innate
Innate is a +1/2 modifier. An Innate power is an instrinsic part of the
character's make up, not a "super power" per se. It is primarely meant for
size powers, such at the the Growth used to represent an elephant or the
Shrinking for a mouse. An Innate power cannot be affected by Alteration
power either positively or negatively. A Transformation or some variations
(EX Shrinking UAO against Innate growth)is required to remove the power
directly.It is considered 0 Endurance and Persistent, but is Always On as
well. While primarely intended for Growth and Shrinking, Innate could be
applied to other powers such as Desolidification (Ghosts), Stretching or
others at the GM's discretion.
Opinions?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:14:03 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Data using contractions
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEB758.E708AAA4
Content-Type: text/plain
> From: Leah L Watts [SMTP:llwatts@juno.com]
>
>>Does he? I sometimes thought so, but was never quite certain.
>>For example, apparently emotional responses could be due to
built-in
>>ethical or human relations programs, rather than because he
actually
>>feels things. He is also trying to emulate humans, after all,
and
>>demonstrates considerable acting skill in later episodes, and
so may
>>be
>>_acting_ as if he had emotions. He also indicated that
appearing to
>>have
>>emotions was one of the ways he attempted to understand
emotions.
>
>Emotions tend to cause consistent physical effects, one trick
covered in
>acting class was how to copy those effects if your character
was supposed
>to be feeling a certain emotion. There's no reason Data
couldn't learn
>and use that trick. It would take him what, half a second to
download
>every acting textbook in the Federation library system? :)
Since one
>side effect of that trick is that the actor may actually feel
some of the
>emotion being mimicked, he may see it as a way to try to gain
emotion.
>
The Stanislovski method involves deliberately trying to feel
like a character in order to act like the character. Some actors take
this so far that they have done such things as throw themselves off a
bridge because the character committed suicide. Note that in most cases,
they were still rational enough to use a short, fairly safe bridge.
Data did state specifically that his acting was an inversion of
this method; act like the character in order to try to feel his
emotions.
Filksinger
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEB758.E708AAA4--
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #398
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:13 PM