Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 402

Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 402
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:29 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #402

champ-l-digest Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 402

In this issue:

Re: New Power Advantage:Innate
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Space Battleship
Re: New Power Advantage:Innate
RE: Space Battleship
Re: Space Battleship
RE: Space Battleship
Re: Space Battleship
RE: Space Battleship
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Swapping stats
RE: Swapping stats
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:32:00 -0400
Re: Space Battleship
Re: Space Battleship
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0400
The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: Space Battleship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:18:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Power Advantage:Innate

At 08:13 PM 6/15/1999 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 06:27 PM 6/15/99 EDT, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 6/15/99 5:32:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>jmucchiello@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>><< Of course, Steve did say he included Inherent as a -1/4 limitation which
>>can only apply to Persistent powers. >>
>>
>> Assuming I'm the Steve being referred to, there's been a
>>misunderstanding (perhaps on my part) -- Inherent is a +1/4 *Advantage*,
not
>>a Limitation. Sorry if I caused any confusion.
>
>You were and good. As an advantage it makes more sense. But why would
>anyone by Difficult to Dispel for +1/4 when this is +1/4?

Probably so they can turn it off. The way I read it, something that's
Inherent cannot be turned off, period.

>How does it work with regard to Characteristics? I hope that would be
>illegal.

I think that this would also require a Power to be 0 END Persistent,
Always On (a construct which is already illegal for Characteristics).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:31:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage

At 08:15 AM 6/16/1999 +0800, Allan Dunbar wrote:
>
>And it just does not work like that. Therefore, AoE Teleport, with an
>additional 800kg worth of mass multiples, could move 800kg only, as long as
>that is within the area of effect, and only if that 800kg was willing to go
>with the teleporter. To teleport objects that are unwilling (or to make
>people fly who are unwilling) you need to buy Usuable against Others.

I think I'd change the "willing" part to "not resisting." Otherwise it
becomes impossible to move inanimate objects (at least, without touching
them).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:03:49 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
To: Logan Darklighter <logand@cyberramp.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Space Battleship
>Shouldn't the Wave Motion Engine be Transdimensional Movment. Every
>time they engaged it, they went a different distances and they covered
>several light years in a few short second on more then one occasion. That
>takes quite a bit of FTL. Transdimensional Movment would be cheaper
>and better represent the show IMHO.

I am going to be using Bob's Transdimensional movement to get them to
"subspace", and then John's take on the FTL kicks in. This would represent
the effect, seen in the show, of the Argo being completely out of phase with
the normal universe when it was space warping.

BTW, for those interested, the wave motion engine was described as working
in classic "tesseract" fashion. They basically "jumped" from wavecrest to
wavecrest in the spacetime continuum. The most common fan theory holds that
the wave motion engine suspended the ship in a kind of "tachyon bubble" that
allowed the ship to move into subspace and faster than light. Collapsing the
bubble is what precipitated them back into normal space and relativistic
speeds. Yeah. It's technobabble. Basically, in game terms, they pull a lever
and the ship is several light hours forward of her previous position. That's
all that's really important for our purposes here.

>Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB depending.
>Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that are carried by
>the ship.
>
>The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun looked something
>like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge clips, 1 turrn to reload,
>OIF, 0 degree Arc, Only on same Level. Giving the WMG about a 23KM
>range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard hexes) and costs 107
points,

>
>The Laser Cannons were 10D6 RKAs, 2xExtended Range, OIF,
>180 degree Arc, 64 x 1 Charge Clips. The Main Guns have a range
>of 38 KMs and has a base cost of 90 points. There were 4 turrets
>of 3 guns each, so apply a 0.25 limitation too the 18 points 12
>weapons cost give 14 points for the additional guns. Making the
>Main guns cost 104 points.
>
>The rest of the guns are the same basic system for cost

The ranges given in Starblazers for the main guns are 7.5 Megameters during
the Iscandar mission in 2199. Later they were upgraded to a 10 megameter
range during the year 2200 retrofit.

What's a megameter? We get a good clue, when we see the Argo firing at a
group of enemy ships and the perspective shows that they practically fired
at a distance corresponding to the diameter of the planet!

I'd say a megameter is at least 1000 Kilometers. 10 megameters then would be
10,000 kilometers. This actually seems an appropriate scale, in my mind, for
space warfare on a large scale.

Anybody have any reference on metric prefix progressions that could confirm
my theory?

And the name for the main gun batteries was "Shock Cannons". She had 3 main
batteries of three guns apiece, and 2 secondary batteries, also with three
guns apiece.

What are "Shock Cannons"? I honestly don't know for sure. The way they acted
in the show indicated that they were some sort of plasma weapon with a
magnetic charge. Whenever the main and secondary batteries fired, the energy
beams from the individual barrels would "braid" around each other shortly
after leaving the barrels.

10d6 RKA is a good round number. I'll keep that in mind.

Oh. And the Wave Motion Gun's range is listed at one point to be 30
Megameters.

- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
- -Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: New Power Advantage:Innate

- --- Filksinger <filkhero@deskmail.com> wrote:
> > What? Drain lowers the active points of a power construct. It has
> > absolutely nothing to do with being or not being human. Why can't
> > CON be Innate in Dwarves? Aren't wings inherent to birds? Can
> > their flight be drained? Why just shrinking, growth and desolid?
> > What really makes something Innate or Inherent? Why would height
> > be innate but not swimming in a fish? This is my question.
>
> Because you are confusing the word "innate" with the
> Advantage/Limitation/whateveritis of "Innate". They aren't quite the
> same. As a general rule, if the Power goes away when the creature
> dies, it may have been innate, but it wasn't Innate.

So, LS: Water Breathing in a fish is it innate or Innate? It doesn't
breath water after death. You say innate. How about PD/ED? I would
assume that defenses don't go away after death. Does this mean they
cannot be Drained?

> We need something like Innate, in order to make Powers like Drain
> consistent with the real world. Otherwise, you have "Drain vs Life
> Support", which not only stops people from using aqualungs, but
causes
> robots to need to breathe, or "Drain vs Desolid" which makes ghosts
> solid, or "Drain vs Flight" which not only stops jet packs from
> working but turns helium creatures to zenon creatures.

Funny, I always thought that was what special effect was for. I think
that is my real problem with this. Why not make up a bunch of special
effect advantages/limitation: Real Fire, Real Electricity, etc which
encapsulate all of the special effects of those real world energies?
That way a fire creature could be put out by water as an in-game
mechanic rather than a GM adjudicated special effect.

BTW, why can't ghosts be made solid? Seems like that would be a useful
spell/power for fighting ghosts. (And as an aside: from a mechanic
point of view would Drain Desolid need Affects Desolid?)

Joe

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:47:59 -0400
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship

1 megameter (Mm) is 1x10^6 meters, or one million meters, or 1,000 km

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Adam Johnson
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (LabRAT)
ajohnson@clariion.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------

- -----Original Message-----
The ranges given in Starblazers for the main guns are 7.5 Megameters during
the Iscandar mission in 2199. Later they were upgraded to a 10 megameter
range during the year 2200 retrofit.

What's a megameter? We get a good clue, when we see the Argo firing at a
group of enemy ships and the perspective shows that they practically fired
at a distance corresponding to the diameter of the planet!

I'd say a megameter is at least 1000 Kilometers. 10 megameters then would be
10,000 kilometers. This actually seems an appropriate scale, in my mind, for
space warfare on a large scale.

Anybody have any reference on metric prefix progressions that could confirm
my theory?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:47:58 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

- -----Original Message-----
From: Johnson, Adam <AJohnson@clariion.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: Space Battleship

>1 megameter (Mm) is 1x10^6 meters, or one million meters, or 1,000 km

Well I'll be darned. I hit it right on the money! ^_^

- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
- -Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:06:06 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BEB809.C41FF980
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Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB depending.
Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that are carried by
the ship.

The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun looked something
like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge clips, 1 turrn to reload,
OIF, 0 degree Arc, Only on same Level. Giving the WMG about a 23KM
range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard hexes) and costs 107 points,
********************
Good thing I'm not the one designing it. I set a 120mm SABOT round as 11D6
3xAP RKA...
I'd make the wave-motion gun something like a 100D6 RKA, extended range
(lots), with an explosion advantage on 20D6 to make people sit up and take
notice.
********************
The Laser Cannons were 10D6 RKAs, 2xExtended Range, OIF,
180 degree Arc, 64 x 1 Charge Clips. The Main Guns have a range
of 38 KMs and has a base cost of 90 points. There were 4 turrets
of 3 guns each, so apply a 0.25 limitation too the 18 points 12
weapons cost give 14 points for the additional guns. Making the
Main guns cost 104 points.

The rest of the guns are the same basic system for cost

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Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB =
depending.
 Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that =
are carried by
 the ship.


The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun =
looked something
 like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge =
clips, 1 turrn to reload,
 OIF,  0 degree Arc, Only on same Level.  =
Giving the WMG about a 23KM
 range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard =
hexes) and costs 107 points,
 ********************
 Good thing I'm not the one designing it. I set a =
120mm SABOT round as 11D6 3xAP RKA...
 I'd make the wave-motion gun something like a 100D6 =
RKA, extended range (lots), with an explosion advantage on 20D6 to make =
people sit up and take notice.

********************
 The Laser Cannons were 10D6 RKAs, 2xExtended Range, =
OIF,
 180 degree Arc, 64 x 1 Charge Clips.  The Main =
Guns have a range
 of 38 KMs and has a base cost of 90 points.  =
There were 4 turrets
 of 3 guns each, so apply a 0.25 limitation too the =
18 points 12
 weapons cost give 14 points for the additional =
guns.  Making the
 Main guns cost 104 points.


The rest of the guns are the same basic system for =
cost


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:49:38 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

At 09:03 AM 6/16/1999 -0500, Logan Darklighter wrote:
>
>The ranges given in Starblazers for the main guns are 7.5 Megameters during
>the Iscandar mission in 2199. Later they were upgraded to a 10 megameter
>range during the year 2200 retrofit.
>
>What's a megameter? We get a good clue, when we see the Argo firing at a
>group of enemy ships and the perspective shows that they practically fired
>at a distance corresponding to the diameter of the planet!
>
>I'd say a megameter is at least 1000 Kilometers. 10 megameters then would be
>10,000 kilometers. This actually seems an appropriate scale, in my mind, for
>space warfare on a large scale.
>
>Anybody have any reference on metric prefix progressions that could confirm
>my theory?

You are correct; a megameter is 1000 kilometers. It's a standard part
of the progression, with each being 1000 times the previous:

kilo - mega - giga - tera - exa - yotta - zotta - banana nana bo botta

(I'm just kidding on that last one, of course.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Sarrusophone

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:08:08 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship

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You forgot -peta- (10^15).

(Sorry, couldn't help myself)

/Henrik

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade [mailto:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
Sent: den 16 juni 1999 16:50
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

At 09:03 AM 6/16/1999 -0500, Logan Darklighter wrote:
>
>The ranges given in Starblazers for the main guns are 7.5 Megameters during
>the Iscandar mission in 2199. Later they were upgraded to a 10 megameter
>range during the year 2200 retrofit.
>
>What's a megameter? We get a good clue, when we see the Argo firing at a
>group of enemy ships and the perspective shows that they practically fired
>at a distance corresponding to the diameter of the planet!
>
>I'd say a megameter is at least 1000 Kilometers. 10 megameters then would
be
>10,000 kilometers. This actually seems an appropriate scale, in my mind,
for
>space warfare on a large scale.
>
>Anybody have any reference on metric prefix progressions that could confirm
>my theory?

You are correct; a megameter is 1000 kilometers. It's a standard part
of the progression, with each being 1000 times the previous:

kilo - mega - giga - tera - exa - yotta - zotta - banana nana bo botta

(I'm just kidding on that last one, of course.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Sarrusophone

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>RE: Space Battleship</TITLE>
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You forgot -peta- (10^15).


(Sorry, couldn't help myself)


/Henrik


-----Original Message-----
 From: Bob Greenwade [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:bob.greenwade@klock.com">mailto:bob.greenwade@klock.com</=
A>]
 Sent: den 16 juni 1999 16:50
 To: champ-l@sysabend.org
 Subject: Re: Space Battleship

 

At 09:03 AM 6/16/1999 -0500, Logan Darklighter =
wrote:
 >
 >The ranges given in Starblazers for the main =
guns are 7.5 Megameters during
 >the Iscandar mission in 2199. Later they were =
upgraded to a 10 megameter
 >range during the year 2200 retrofit.
 >
 >What's a megameter? We get a good clue, when we =
see the Argo firing at a
 >group of enemy ships and the perspective shows =
that they practically fired
 >at a distance corresponding to the diameter of =
the planet!
 >
 >I'd say a megameter is at least 1000 Kilometers. =
10 megameters then would be
 >10,000 kilometers. This actually seems an =
appropriate scale, in my mind, for
 >space warfare on a large scale.
 >
 >Anybody have any reference on metric prefix =
progressions that could confirm
 >my theory?


   You are correct; a megameter is 1000 =
kilometers.  It's a standard part
 of the progression, with each being 1000 times the =
previous:


   kilo - mega - giga - tera - exa - yotta =
- - zotta - banana nana bo botta


   (I'm just kidding on that last one, of =
course.)
 ---
 Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of =
HEROS member]
    <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/origin=
al.htm</A>
 Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
    <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrho=
me.htm</A>
 Interested in sarrusophones?  Join the =
Sarrusophone Mailing List!
    <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Sarrusophone" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Sarrusophone</A></FON=
T>


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------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1999 12:13:29 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage

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* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| "Powers with this Advantage can be used against inanimate objects of
| approximately human mass; this inanimate mass can be increased x2 for an
| additional +1/4 Advantage (It's very expensive to get enough Teleport
| Usable Against Others to Teleport the Earth.) The target's mass is only
| relevant for inanimate objects."

That... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Advantages modify how a
power functions. That is why they are called power modifiers. Having one
that fundamentally changes the basic cost structure of a power is
just... wrong.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1999 12:16:34 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

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* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".

Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
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=VI6d
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:24:00 +0200
From: Henrik Giese <henrik.giese@lgp.se>
Subject: RE: Swapping stats

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BEB814.A59F6AB0
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Why?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat [mailto:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
Sent: den 16 juni 1999 18:17
To: Champions
Subject: Re: Swapping stats

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".

Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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=VI6d
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \

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Why?


-----Original Message-----
 From: Stainless Steel Rat [<A HREF="mailto:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net">mailto:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net</A>]
 Sent: den 16 juni 1999 18:17
 To: Champions
 Subject: Re: Swapping stats

 

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* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>  on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
 | Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
 | you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".


Right.  You cannot use Transfer on yourself.  That does not mean it cannot
 affect you.  Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
 (assuming that it can be reflected in the first place).  Transfer with AoE
 and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
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-- 
 Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
 Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ 
 PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 


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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:32:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:32:00 -0400

>>At 11:13 AM 6/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>I thought ST:TNG was terribly inconsistent on Data's emotions. He
clearly
>>>felt friendship for his crewmates, even if he did describe it as "the
>>>pleasing effect of familiar patterns in my neural subroutines" or
somesuch.
>>>There was one episode I recall, though, that actually did something
with
>>>the concept of Data having no real emotions. He got involved in a
romance,
>>>then brought it to an abrupt halt with no feeling whatsoever.
>>>
>>
>>Except that he seemed a little sad about it, at least in private,
leaving
>>the audience wondering if he WAS a little sad, or if we were just
projecting.

To me, the _scene_ seemed sad, but Data did not. I felt sorry for him,
because he _wasn't_ sad.

>>I also recall in the episode Data's Day where Data suspects that a
Vulcan
>>official is lying to him and comments for his log how he "wishes he
had a
>>gut feeling" to re-enforce his belief that Vulcans do not lie. It
seemed
>>obvious that he had a "gut feeling" that she was lying, but again I
might
>>just be projecting.

He didn't have a "gut feeling", exactly. He had actual reasons for
believing that she was probably lying. Most of a "gut feeling" is actual
evidence, collected subconsciously, combined with an ability to get a
general (and sometimes inaccurate) impression of what another is feeling
from tone and manner (i.e. "body language"). Data had the evidence,
consciously rather than subconsciously, but didn't have the ability to
read the body language. I suspect that this is due to the inconsistency
of body language; the very best body language readers will tell you
outright that body language is less than clear from one person to
another; behavior X in person 1 means X and in person 2 means Y. In
fact, behavior X may mean X today and Y tomorrow, in the same person.

Human beings often have problems with body language, and they have the
advantage that if they mimic a body language, they can often feel the
emotion themselves, giving them strong clues to what the other person
feels. Data does not have this. They are also better at projecting and
self-delusion.:)

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1999 13:05:04 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

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* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| kilo - mega - giga - tera - exa - yotta - zotta - banana nana bo botta

yotta, zetta, exa, peta, tera, giga, mega, kilo, hecto, deca
deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto, zepto, yocto
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c6rRyGoR5eGBodwwZVfIw0Y=
=dqm4
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:15:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ben Brown <benbrown@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

On 16 Jun 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> * Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
> | kilo - mega - giga - tera - exa - yotta - zotta - banana nana bo botta
>
> yotta, zetta, exa, peta, tera, giga, mega, kilo, hecto, deca
> deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto, zepto, yocto

groucho, harpo, chico, and sometimes zeppo

- -Ben

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0400

>--- Filksinger <filkhero@deskmail.com> wrote:
>> > What? Drain lowers the active points of a power construct. It has
>> > absolutely nothing to do with being or not being human. Why can't
>> > CON be Innate in Dwarves? Aren't wings inherent to birds? Can
>> > their flight be drained? Why just shrinking, growth and desolid?
>> > What really makes something Innate or Inherent? Why would height
>> > be innate but not swimming in a fish? This is my question.
>>
>> Because you are confusing the word "innate" with the
>> Advantage/Limitation/whateveritis of "Innate". They aren't quite the
>> same. As a general rule, if the Power goes away when the creature
>> dies, it may have been innate, but it wasn't Innate.
>
>So, LS: Water Breathing in a fish is it innate or Innate? It doesn't
>breath water after death.

True. I did say "a general rule" specifically because there would be
exceptions. And fish don't have LS, anyway. Everyone gets to breathe in
one environment for free; all _others_ are LS. Thus, fish don't need LS:
Breathe Water, any more than I need LS: Breathe Air, or a creature from
Titan needs LS: Breathe methane. Your home environment is free.

> You say innate. How about PD/ED? I would
>assume that defenses don't go away after death. Does this mean they
>cannot be Drained?

PD and ED are Characteristics, and characteristics are typically going
to be unable to use Innate. This would also apply to Armor, as Armor is
little more than a tweaked up Characteristic.

>> We need something like Innate, in order to make Powers like Drain
>> consistent with the real world. Otherwise, you have "Drain vs Life
>> Support", which not only stops people from using aqualungs, but
>causes
>> robots to need to breathe, or "Drain vs Desolid" which makes ghosts
>> solid, or "Drain vs Flight" which not only stops jet packs from
>> working but turns helium creatures to zenon creatures.
>
>Funny, I always thought that was what special effect was for.

Unfortunately, it does badly. In at least two of my examples above, the
target would get complete immunity to virtually _all_ SFX of Drain. If
this immunity is SFX, they get an expensive defense for free. I'd rather
give them complete immunity to Drain, and then create _exceptions_ due
to SFX, rather than the other way around.

>I think
>that is my real problem with this. Why not make up a bunch of special
>effect advantages/limitation: Real Fire, Real Electricity, etc. which
>encapsulate all of the special effects of those real world energies?
>That way a fire creature could be put out by water as an in-game
>mechanic rather than a GM adjudicated special effect.

We do do this, but often break it down, due to the fact that not all
Powers with a particular SFX necessarily have the _same_
Limitations/Advantages. Other game systems do stuff like this; they say,
"X has fire powers. He can do this, and his weaknesses are these". Most
HERO System players prefer, "I have these Powers. Because they are based
upon fire, I get these Limitations and these Advantages. I also get
these Disadvantages based upon SFX. And sometimes I get minor
advantages/limitations due to SFX." This gives much finer control.

If you just did it as a package ("I get a -1/2 Lim due to the Fire-based
Limitation"), then you have various problems from when a Power or set of
Powers doesn't quite match. Magnesium Man's fire powers might be similar
to those of Oilfire's, Hearthfire's, and Thermite's, but all should have
at least some _different_ Limitations/Advantages. A "Fire-based" package
of Advantages/Limitations would correctly fit only one or two of these,
at best.

>BTW, why can't ghosts be made solid?

They can. But a "Drain Desolid" designed to stop Kitty Pride from
phasing and the Vision from sending large portions of his molecules into
another dimension shouldn't really affect the ghost. To solidify a
ghost, you would probably have to Transform it into something not a
ghost. This is probably even more true for a creature made of mist, gas,
or water. "Drain Desolid" is hokey enough without giving it the Power to
force spirits to become solid, turn mist into some sort of solid
substance obviously much more dense than mist, and freeze water, all at
the same time.

>Seems like that would be a useful
>spell/power for fighting ghosts.

It would be. 1d6 Transformation: Ghost into living being, Cumulative.

>(And as an aside: from a mechanic
>point of view would Drain Desolid need Affects Desolid?)

Only if you waited until the target wasn't solid. If you used it while
the target was solid, you could prevent him from Desolidifying in the
first place.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:22:15 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]

I love the metric system. Can you imagine if Hero used imprerial
measurements? Range penalties would be calculated in furlongs and you'd
measure your mass in stones or some such nonsense.

I just wanted to comment on Rat's comprehensive list of metric prefixes.

If you live in the U.S., you maybe haven't dealt with this in school or in
your day-to-day life.

The big prefixes mark off divisions of 3 orders of magnitude
tera = 1000*giga, giga = 1000*mega and so on down to kilo which is 1000
times the base unit.

Hecto is 100 times the base unit and Deca is 10 times the base unit.

Conversly, deci is 0.1 times the base unit and centi is 0.01 times the base
unit.

Then, starting with milli at 0.001 [1/1000] times the base unit, the
divisions get smaller by three orders of magnitude. So, micro = milli/1000,
nano = micro/1000 and so on.

Next weeks lesson is on why water freezes at 0 and boils at 100.

] yotta, zetta, exa, peta, tera, giga, mega, kilo, hecto, deca
] deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto, zepto, yocto
] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
] Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
] Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
]
] iD8DBQE3Z9lAgl+vIlSVSNkRAitJAKCkNu2Rv+E2CppOIAJFjToKyrdV3QCgobPM
] c6rRyGoR5eGBodwwZVfIw0Y=
] =dqm4
] -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
]
] --
] Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun
] Ball include an
] Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing
] substance which fell to
] PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from
] outer space.
]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:16:17 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship

>>Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB depending.
>>Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that are carried by
>>the ship.
>>
>>The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun looked something
>>like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge clips, 1 turrn to reload,
>>OIF, 0 degree Arc, Only on same Level. Giving the WMG about a 23KM
>>range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard hexes) and costs 107
points,
>>********************
Good thing I'm not the one designing it. I set a 120mm SABOT round as 11D6
3xAP RKA...
I'd make the wave-motion gun something like a 100D6 RKA, extended range
(lots), with an explosion advantage on 20D6 to make people sit up and take
notice.

I know what you mean. The Wave Motion Gun was one of those weapons that got
into the "Were you in the path of the beam? too bad, you're dead..." type of
category of weapons.

One thing to note when designing it, no matter what the actual effect. It's
defined more by it's limitations than the actual destructive power of the
weapon. It took at minimum a full minute to charge up. During that time, the
ship could not move or fire any other weapons. The Argo was also vulnerable
for up to a full minute _AFTER_ firing the gun as well. Although they seemed
to play fast and loose with the post firing phase during the show. Sometimes
they could do something. Other times they couldn't.

Other than that, it's a very subjective call as to what power level to use
when coming up with the actual game effects.

It's a plot device really. It's one of those things where no matter how
destructive you make it, it doesn't matter, because it should ALWAYS destroy
whatever it hits.

- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
- -Neil Gaimen and Terry Pratchett
_Good Omens_
*i.e., everybody.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand

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