Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 405
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 11:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #405
champ-l-digest Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 405
In this issue:
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: dialects
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Swapping stats
Re: dialects
Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: Swapping stats
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Ultimate Super Vehicle, When? [was Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage]
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Space Battleship
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)
RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: dialects
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: dialects
Re: Swapping stats (long)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:59:09 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
>On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com> wrote:
>>
>>Do you not see that these archaic measurements will drag the U.S. into
>>anarchy and darkness! Convert! My thoery is that the U.S. won't change to
>>the metric system just to spite the French.
According to my dad (we used to get into this years ago), the attempt to get
those in the U.S. to switch _to_ the metric system was a conspiracy to drag
the U.S. into anarchy and darkness! :-)
Personally as an Engineer, I like the metric system ... though my mind does
still work better in terms of miles and pounds. I do see some of my dad's
points though ... well, not the anarchy and darkness stuff, but in all the
hassle switching could cause.
My dad builds and remodels houses for a living. Drywall (a.k.a. sheetrock)
typically comes in 4' x 8' (10', 12', 14' or 16') sizes. Plywood, OSB,
Fiberboard and the like typically come at 4' x 8'. Houses typically have
ceilings 8 feet from the floor, though older houses might be 10 or 12 feet
to the ceiling. Wall studs are typically on 16 inch centers. Floor and
ceiling joists vary, but are typically on 16" or 24" centers. All this
works together quite well and it is typically easy to figure out how to lay
things out and how much material one would need. [ Gaming hook: The above
information is useful to anyone wanting to know this information when
someone is knocked though a wall, floor or ceiling :-) ]
If one were to switch to the metric system, how would one deal with this?
Change the standard dimensions of material? New houses would be ...
different. It would make a remodeling job into hell and waste a lot of
martial.
Or would one now buy a sheet of drywall that was 1.22m x 2.44m? (I rounded)
Wall studs would now on 40.64 cm centers. Adding up several in your head
would be tough.
So even though the metric system is generally superior, the above is but a
single example of the many changes and problems switching would cause. It's
far easier to flow with the huge momentum of the old measurement system and
simply not change ... which is more or less what happened.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:18:24 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Brian Wawrow wrote:
> Do you not see that these archaic measurements will drag the U.S. into
> anarchy and darkness! Convert! My thoery is that the U.S. won't change to
> the metric system just to spite the French.
>
Actually the metric system was legally adopted by the US goverment as
its official measurement system. Of course this was under the Articles
of Confederation. After the Constitution was adopted law no longer
existed. Supposedly a bill was brought up by the second congress of
the United States and actually passed in the Senate but never made it
out of committee in The House of Representative. Leave it to the
politicians to screw things up royally. Of course this is coming from a
person who lives in a state where a law was passed stating the ratio
of a circle's circumference to its area is 3. So I guess I shouldn't
complain too much about killing the metric system in committee.
>
> ] Huh? An acre is 43560 sq. ft., so there are 640 acres in a
> ] square mile.
> ] Put another way, an acre is a rectangle one furlong (660') in
> ] length, and
> ] one chain (66') in width... which is an approximation of a
> ] typical field in
> ] medieval times. So, not very intuitive in modern times when
> ] fields cover
> ] hundreds of acres and only a tiny fraction of the population
> ] actually works
> ] in them, but very meaningful and intuitive to the medieval
> ] peasant. For
> ] example, a furlong is the distance an ox can plow before it
> ] needs a rest.
> ]
> ] Mike
> ]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:30:36 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: dialects
At 04:56 PM 6/16/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>says Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com&>
>>I'd like to have Canadian colloquialisms counted as well.
>>
>>pop, not soda
>
>This actually varies geographically inside the US. It's "soda" in the North
>Atlantic states, "pop" in much of the MidWest, etc. And, in some parts of
>the South, for some reason, "coke" refers to any soda/pop, regardless of
>flavor.
Well, world headquarters for Coca-Cola being in Atlanta might have
something to do with that. :)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:42:02 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
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* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| So far the only reason I've seen you give for a character not being able
| to use Transfer on himself is that attacking oneself is not a
| psychologically normal action, yet you've agreed that a gun turned on
| oneself would certainly affect oneself. What makes Transfer different from
| RKA in this respect?
Nothing whatsoever.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:43:25 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
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* David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| Even if we agreed that Rat did originally intend to say that a Transfer
| turned upon yourself would just bounce,
Which I never did.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:43:57 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
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* geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
Read my numerous previous postings, please.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:45:15 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
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* Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| I think a great power would be the ability to sacrifice some of one
| characteristic or power to boost another one.
+40 Strength, Side Effect: 2D6 Drain INT (-1/2).
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:44:47 -0400
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: dialects
Well, as someone who lived in Michigan (eastern mid-west) for the first part
of his life, and who has lived in Western New York (Rochester area) for the
last 14 years, I think I can say that some of these are not just Canadian!
:-)
>pop, not soda
It's pop in Michaigan. In Rochester your hear pop, soda and soda pop.
>mild means 'not too cold', usually used early in the spring
Same in Michigan. Here in Rochester, many people complain about the harsh
winters ... I think there pretty mild. :-) I haven't owned a heavy winter
coat in years.
>shitkickers are big work boots with steel toes and thinsulate lining
I've heard this many times before ... though the boots refered to usually
lacked thinsulate.
>a warm knit cap is a toque [pronounced too-k], not a ski hat
Thanks to the McKinzie brothers (Canadian) the toque was commonly used in
Michigan last I knew. I hear it from time to time in Rochester also.
>a sk'doo is a snowmobile
In Michigan they were often called a "sled" ... and they were everywhere. I
don't see many in western New York.
>cheerleading, as a hobby, is largely regarded as a stupid thing
Ummm, you this is Canadian? :-)
>beer has at least 5.5% alchohol. anything less is pisswater
American beer _is_ pisswater! :-)
>pisswater means light beer or American beer
Uh, right ... but then, so is the imported Canadian beer. :-)
>'south of the border' means Buffalo <gag, what a hole>
I've seen worse!
>'the lake' or 'up north' is where your weekend cottage is
Up north is what the people from the Detroit call anything north of Flint.
:-) Okay, so that's only really funny if you have lived in Michigan,
somewhere besides the Detroit area.
"The Lake", of course was Lake Michigan, Hueron or Superior, depending on
where you were from. Thanks to my college days, Lake Superior will always
be "THE Lake" to me! :-)
In Rochester of course, it refers to Lake Onterio.
>a fishhut is a little plywood structure you drag out onto a frozen lake to
>sit in while you go ice fishing - not me, but some people do it
Fishin' Shanty in Michigan (and I believe in Minnisota and Wisconscon) ...
which typically describes them better than hut does. :-)
>hose can be a verb as in 'Man, I'm so hosed!'
First heard "hose", "hosed", "hoser" and the like on "Welcome Back Cotter,"
a TV show from the 70's. Really got popular in College (Michigan Tech) due
to the McKinzie brothers.
In the first Champions group I played in (in late 83, I believe), one of the
characters was the "Hoser". He wore a toque, and for powers, could do
creative things with a six pack of beer. Obviously, neither the character
or player were overly serious. The guy had a hard time believing that the
rest of us were willing to play anything but D&D. By the end of the
following year however, we were playing Champions far more than D&D!
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 22:02:35 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Clarifying a point (was Re: Swapping stats)
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* David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| If I have the Power Transfer, _designed strictly to attack others_, and
| turn it on myself, does it work?
Transfer:
"A character with this Adjustment Power can temporarilly take points from
an opponent's Characteristic or Power and add those points to one of his
own Characteristics or Powers."
Personal Immunity:
"This Advantage prevents the character from being affected by his own
power."
1. You cannot turn your Transfer on yourself. Transfer takes points from
your opponent (someone else) and gives them to you temporarilly. It
does not take points from yourself and give them to yourself. If you
want to increase one Characteristic or Power at the cost of another,
either use a Multipower to see-saw the active point ratio or buy the
extra Characteristic or Power with Side Effects.
2. Assuming that for some _unusual_ reason #1 is suspened, then unless you
bought Personal Immunity on your Transfer it will affect you, just as
any other Power would.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:02:24 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
<snip>
> Of course this is coming from a
> person who lives in a state where a law was passed stating the ratio
> of a circle's circumference to its area is 3. So I guess I
shouldn't
> complain too much about killing the metric system in committee.
Actually, it was 7, and never passed. The second commitee it was sent
to killed it. I don't recall which one that was; I believe the first
was the Commitee on Swamps.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:05:41 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
<snip>
> * David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
> | Even if we agreed that Rat did originally intend to say that a
Transfer
> | turned upon yourself would just bounce,
>
> Which I never did.
I'll grant you that. That was why I said, "if". I don't read minds,
and generally assume half of all argued points sent by email are
misunderstood by the arguing parties.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:47:48 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> That... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Advantages modify how a
> power functions. That is why they are called power modifiers. Having one
> that fundamentally changes the basic cost structure of a power is
> just... wrong.
I can understand your feelings at first it seemed strange to me as well. I
finally got to where I didn't have a problem with it by realizing that
Teleportation doesn't have a mass limit on the target of the power (which is
the individual with the power, usually) only on extra mass he wants to take
with him.
The extra mass that you purchase through the UAO Advantage for +1/4 per
doubling and the extra mass you purchase through the power Teleportation at
+5 points per doubling affect different aspects of the power. The +5 points
extra mass that you can purchase on Teleportation still can be purchased for
Teleportation UAO. The function of it in that case would be to allow you to
teleport an individual and extra mass that is touching that individual. The
+1/4 extra mass that you purchase as part of the UAO Advantage affects how
large an inanimate object you can teleport by itself.
Lastly, like it or not, that is the way it is, subject to change by house
rules, of course.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:41:04 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Ultimate Super Vehicle, When? [was Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage]
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com>
Cc: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> >BTW: Where is the Ultimate Super Vehicle? Some of us here in Mobile, AL
> >are rather eager to get a look.
>
> Search me. Ask Bruce.
Hi, Bruce. Where is the Ultimate Super Vehicle? Some of us here in Mobile,
AL are rather eager to get a look.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:00:01 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
To: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com>
Cc: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, J. Alan Easley wrote:
> <snip>
> > Teleportation, 10", 800kg Extra Mass, Area Effect.
> > Teleportation, 10", 800kg Extra Mass, Area Effect, Usable Against
Others.
> >
> > What is the difference between how these powers function? It can't be
the
> > difference of whether or not it affects the owner of the power. The
owner
> > is going to be in the area since it isn't bought Ranged.
> >
> > Alan
>
> The Active Points of the power (for Adjustment Powers and END
> costs), the Real Cost, and the possibility the AoE is bought Selective,
> the functioning of the power sets above changes.
No, I asked how the powers functioned differently. The point you make about
Adjustment Powers is true but doesn't really change anything about how the
powers function. The END costs can be argued to be the same since
Teleportation is a Movement Power and the END for Movement Powers is based
on distance moved. I can see how some might argue that UAO makes
Teleportation no longer a Movement Power but now an Attack Power and change
its END cost but I don't think it should.
I should have to specify that I meant Area Effect, Radius, even though I was
trying to base my example on the original question and simply assumed it but
I shouldn't have to specify whether or not it is Selective, IMHO.
> TPT 10" 800kg AoE: Sel. being able to Teleport things with you.
>
> TPT 10" 800kg AoE: Sel. UAO being able to Teleport objects away
> from you.
>
> Kind of handy when Grond is threatening a bus load on nuns
My mother was Catholic. I knew some nuns. Grond is the one that would be
threatened. }:-) Thanks for inspiring the visuals. I am going to
remember that one for a long time. All four of Grond's hands getting bent
backwards and smacked with rulers. BWWWWAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHA.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:05:53 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> | Why else would you insist on applying the requirement that the two
> | examples above require either UBO or UAO if you believe that Area Effect
> | works the same for everything?
>
> Alan, *please* go back and read my posts before you make me repeat myself
> for the 15th time.
I apologize. I did go back and reread each an every one of your posts and
realized that the very first one you posted on this subject was in perfect
agreement with me.
My problem is that in a later post (which appears to be indicative of your
posts that follow it) from you replying to Wayne Shaw who was pointing out
that the character with the power would also be teleported and that neither
UAO nor UBO was necessary made me think that I didn't understand your first
post or you changed your mind. I read the below and interpreted you to be
stating that a character with Teleportation, 800kg Extra Mass, AE, Radius,
can take any object in the area with him when he teleports as long as no
single object weighs more than 800kg and that the total mass of the extra
objects could weigh more than the 800kg limit.
RAT: "In that case... well, if a 6D6 EB with AoE Radius hits everything in
that
area with a 6D6 attack, then it stands to reason that everything in the
area of effect of this Teleportation that masses 800kg or less will go with
him."
I disagree with that. However, from past experience I can't be sure I
disagree with you or just what I interpret you to be saying as we often seem
to misunderstand each other (at least it seems to me that I often
misunderstand you).
Regardless, Teleportation is a self-only power. Making it Area
Effect-Radius doesn't change it from being self-only, only UAO or UBO could
do that. If I had the power and I threw it in my hex the area might include
other people but it can't affect them directly because it is a self-only
power, and I am the only self in the area. Now if I have purchased Extra
Mass on my Teleportation it makes a bit of sense to go ahead and let me take
anyone or anything within that area with or without their permission or
willingness up to a total of the Extra Mass that I have bought. But, this
shouldn't change the fact that I am the one teleporting, they don't have the
power to teleport, they are simply being brought along as baggage and I can
only bring along so much baggage.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:20:34 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> >>Actually, he's isn't necessarily going to be, either, since many people
> >>interpet a zero range area effect to not necessarily have to have the
user
> >>be at the centerpoint. I've let people do such things and be right at
the
> >>edge of the area.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >What a bizarre interpretation of the no range limitation. Of course you
are
> >going to be at the centre of the effect, you can't move it away from
> >yourself so that you are at the edge of it. An explosion for instance,
how
> >do you make the centre of a power with explosion on it, occur over there,
so
> >that you are at the edge of it, if you bought no range. You can't,
> >therefore you are going to be right in the middle of whatever you set
off...
>
> There's no 'of course' about it. Since you're still within one hex of the
> effect, it's still not ranged. You still can't put it a half a block
away.
> A melee attack is 'no range' but it still doesn't happen in the hex with
> you. I can see an argument that you may not be able to be at the edge of
a
> radius attack, but I don't believe for a moment that someone buying a zero
> range cone or line or single hex has to be in that target hex, any more
than
> someone with a zero range energy blast can only use it on the hex he's
in.
The only reference in the book that I can find about targeting hexes and no
range attacks says you have to be in the target hex. True this is in
section regarding the Explosion Advantage but I can't see why it would be
different for other types of "Area Effect" Advantages. Especially since it
also states that the Attack Roll for Explosions is treated identically to
other Area Effects on page 150, BBB.
Alan
HeroRPG@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:25:26 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
> >of "touching." But I can't agree that giving the same effect as if I had
> >bought my Teleportation with UAO is valid. Please look at the following
> >constructs:
>
> It isn't the same effect. If you don't buy it UAO, you still can't take
> other targets who don't want to go.
>
> >
> >Teleportation, 10", 800kg Extra Mass, Area Effect.
> >
> >Teleportation, 10", 800kg Extra Mass, Area Effect, Usable Against Others.
> >
> >What is the difference between how these powers function? It can't be
the
> >difference of whether or not it affects the owner of the power. The
owner
> >is going to be in the area since it isn't bought Ranged.
>
> Actually, he's isn't necessarily going to be, either, since many people
> interpet a zero range area effect to not necessarily have to have the user
> be at the centerpoint. I've let people do such things and be right at the
> edge of the area.
>
My apologies, I should have specified that I was referring to an Area
Effect, Radius. I let that be assumed because the original question
referred to a Radius. The target hex is the center of an AE, Radius, even
if you allow the target hex to be an adjacent hex the owner is still going
to be in it unless the Active Cost of the power minus the AE Advantage is
only 10
points.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:36:30 -0500
From: "Logan Darklighter" <logand@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Space Battleship
- -----Original Message-----
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Space Battleship
>At 05:06 PM 6/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
>>
>> Laser Cannons and Rockets are probably RKA and EB depending.
>>Missles are best done up as seperate vehicles that are carried by
>>the ship. The last time I did up the Argo, the Wave Motion Gun looked
>>something
>>like this: 30D6RKA, Extended Range, 4 x1 charge clips, 1 turrn to reload,
>> Giving the WMG about a 23KM
>>range (we played 1 Cap Ship hex is 512 standard hexes) and costs 107
points,
>>********************
>
>Worth pointing out that the Wave Motion Gun had recoil. The main engine
>fired with the gun to counteract the recoil, but in one ep they disengaged
>this function and used the gun to push the ship backwards.
Yes, that is true. Although, from a game mechanics standpoint, it doesn't
really effect anything. It's just a reminder that the gun does do knockback.
In fact, you can see often see ships getting pushed backwards somewhat,
before going up like a piece of paper in a blast furnace, that is....
I suppose if you were on the extreme edge of the range of the gun, like,
say, a ship to the far rear of the formation, and actually survived the
blast, you'd be pushed back considerably.
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable
game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective
of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite
stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who
_smiles all the time_."
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- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Web page: http://www.cyberramp.net/~logand
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:39:49 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Michael Sprague wrote:
> Personally as an Engineer, I like the metric system ...
> though my mind does
> still work better in terms of miles and pounds. I do see
> some of my dad's
> points though ... well, not the anarchy and darkness stuff,
> but in all the
> hassle switching could cause.
[contracting examples snipped]
> So even though the metric system is generally superior, the
> above is but a
> single example of the many changes and problems switching
> would cause. It's
> far easier to flow with the huge momentum of the old
> measurement system and
> simply not change ... which is more or less what happened.
A friend of mine is an engineer for the Navy. He told me that all the work
they do (and everything for the Federal government) has to be done in metric
units.
It may be that the "switch" has already been made, but no one who isn't
forced to use metric units does.
I remember when I was in Cameroon, West Africa (an officially metric country
of course) I noticed that butter and several other products came in packages
of 453 grams. :)
grant
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:32:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Affecting Yourself (was Swapping stats)
At 04:43 PM 6/16/1999 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>
>Rather than making either one the default, maybe you should make it like
>Indestructible/Breakable in a Focus: You have to pick one or the other
>when you buy the Power, but its your choice which one.
Given the rest of your comments, I think this is most sensible.
- ---
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http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:34:32 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
At 04:42 PM 6/16/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>That may be true now. However, if the 5th Ed has some method of easily
>>allowing very long range Teleportation, as has been reported, the
>>ability to Teleport people to deep space could be pretty bad.
>
>I suspect, given that they probably imported something like Fuzion's
>Supersonic Flight for high speed flight, that it's a seperate power. At
>that point you just don't allow it UAO.
Except villains. They should always be allowed to do the nasty things
that heroes would never dream of doing. (This is balanced by the fact that
heroes usually have a much better support network.)
- ---
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:39:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: dialects
At 04:56 PM 6/16/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>says Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com&>
>>I'd like to have Canadian colloquialisms counted as well.
>>
>>pop, not soda
>
>This actually varies geographically inside the US. It's "soda" in the North
>Atlantic states, "pop" in much of the MidWest, etc. And, in some parts of
>the South, for some reason, "coke" refers to any soda/pop, regardless of
>flavor.
In this area, both are used, or occasionally "soda pop." (Among young
people, "pop" is more common, though.)
>>'down south' means Florida or Arizona, where you spend the winter if you're
>>retired
>
>Here, it means pretty much anything from Virginia South and Louisiana East.
>Arizona isn't South, it's West. (FL and AZ are both places for retured
>persons, though).
Around these parts, it usually means the same as you said (from Virginia
on south and Louisiana on east), but sometimes refers to the area around
Medford, Ashland, and Klamath Falls.
>>cheerleading, as a hobby, is largely regarded as a stupid thing
>
>It is for me, too.
Cheerleading is a bit more of an honored pastime in these parts.
>>hose can be a verb as in 'Man, I'm so hosed!'
>
>This is in use down here, too.
Not so much around here; at that, I think it's borrowed from the Canadians.
(PS: I once decided to have fun, and develop a Canadian hero who had
invented the ultimate super-soaker, mount the nozzle on his temple, and
call himself Hosehead.)
- ---
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------------------------------
Date: 16 Jun 1999 23:10:24 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
A couple of points:
While at base cost Teleporation is a "self-only" power, the Extra Mass
option quite specifically makes it not a self-only power. Treating it as a
self-only power at that point is contradictory.
The rule in Champions is that if a power has a "built-in" method of
expanding its capabilities, advantages which have similar effects on other
powers cannot be used. You always use the power's built-in method of
extension. For instance, you cannot use Area of Effect to increase the
area of Darkness or Change Environment.
Teleportation has a built-in method of increasing the number of people or
the mass of objects being teleported. Usable By Others and Usable Against
Others have add-on advantages that do exactly the same thing. Given the
second point, these add-on advantages cannot be used with Teleportation. I
would say that using these add-on advantages with Teleportation is the
house rule, not the other way around, especially when you use
Teleportation's Extra Mass for people but UAO's extra mass for objects.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3aGcggl+vIlSVSNkRAijTAKCXyYx70pqk1o1gUzCK07/l9FMy5ACg2388
5yXAsqz4KBp+57aZHtjxt10=
=iA/6
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:29:21 EDT
From: AndMat3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
In a message dated 6/16/99 6:25:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rodger.bright@cbpr.com writes:
> I was under the impression that "Usable Against Others" still requires that
> the
> target be willing to be teleported. There is no way (I could be wrong
here)
> to
> teleport an enemy away, or else I would have 200" teleport and my only
> offenseive move would be to teleport the bad guys 200" in the air. If they
> didn't have gliding or flight they would basically be dead. (Unless they
> were
> of the super-brick variety).
>
(a) Why would any GM allow that?
(b) What fun would that be?
andy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
>> There's no 'of course' about it. Since you're still within one hex of the
>> effect, it's still not ranged. You still can't put it a half a block
>away.
>> A melee attack is 'no range' but it still doesn't happen in the hex with
>> you. I can see an argument that you may not be able to be at the edge of
>a
>> radius attack, but I don't believe for a moment that someone buying a zero
>> range cone or line or single hex has to be in that target hex, any more
>than
>> someone with a zero range energy blast can only use it on the hex he's
>in.
>
>The only reference in the book that I can find about targeting hexes and no
>range attacks says you have to be in the target hex. True this is in
>section regarding the Explosion Advantage but I can't see why it would be
>different for other types of "Area Effect" Advantages. Especially since it
>also states that the Attack Roll for Explosions is treated identically to
>other Area Effects on page 150, BBB.
Bluntly, I don't care. Unless they've redefined No Range on other attacks
to require you to be in the same hex as the target...i.e. to essentially
have grappled them...there's no reason to believe that the Explosion
sentence isn't an abberation. I'll admit my 'edge of Radius' thing is
probably not canonical, but I expect part of the whole point with Cone and
Line effects is for powers like this. Otherwise there is literally no way
to build certain types who start certain attacks right from their hex, but
show no sign of personal immunity, and I don't believe for the moment that
was the intent.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:09:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
>At 04:42 PM 6/16/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>
>>>That may be true now. However, if the 5th Ed has some method of easily
>>>allowing very long range Teleportation, as has been reported, the
>>>ability to Teleport people to deep space could be pretty bad.
>>
>>I suspect, given that they probably imported something like Fuzion's
>>Supersonic Flight for high speed flight, that it's a seperate power. At
>>that point you just don't allow it UAO.
>
> Except villains. They should always be allowed to do the nasty things
>that heroes would never dream of doing. (This is balanced by the fact that
>heroes usually have a much better support network.)
Even there, I generally don't permit it, except as a one or limited time
Plot Device. I dislike there being that big a dichotomy between hero and
villain capability. I particularly don't like giving abilities that I
wouldn't permit _at all_ to a hero.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:48:06 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: dialects
>How about the US regional dialects. For instance, a peice of
>livingroom
>furnature big enough to seat three. Do you call it a couch, sofa, or
>davenport?
I've heard and used all three, but then we moved around a *lot* when I
was a kid (Dad was active-service Navy). I probably use "couch" the
most.
For those keeping count of regions, I'm in the Midwest (Omaha NE --
anyone watching the College World Series?)
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:45:50 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats (long)
At 09:43 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
>
>Read my numerous previous postings, please.
I've read them all, Mr. Rat. I remain confused.
What appears below is not an exhaustive list of your posts on the matter,
and I have ignored at least one side debate, but please follow along. If
you feel I have misquoted you, taken your comments out of context, or
omitted valuable parts of your argument, I'll gladly send you a copy of any
and all messages on this thread since I began it.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 06 Jun 1999 21:49:33 -0400
* GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> on Sun, 06 Jun 1999
| Pardon me if this is too obvious, but what about a simple Transfer?
| (Own INT to STR).
You can't use Transfer on yourself.
<<Ah, the oft refered to post that started it all. Seems simple, doesn't
it? A statement that Transfer may not be used on one's self.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 07 Jun 1999 09:12:57 -0400
* GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> on Mon, 07 Jun 1999
| Just because it says "opponent"? So you can't Drain yourself either?
Exactly.
<<And here we see a glimpse of why you think your statement is true.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 07 Jun 1999 17:03:56 -0400
Regardless, if it says "opponent" you cannot use it on yourself. I do not
consider Side Effects to qualify as "using a power on yourself", unless you
don't mind me buying an Energy Blast with Aid as a Side Effect.
<<So, by your own statements, any power which says it is to be used on your
"opponent" may not be used on yourself. That is what you stated as your
position. >>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:16:46 -0400
* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Mon, 07 Jun 1999
| Although, I have to wonder: why would you /stop/ someone from Draining
| (or, heck, even Transferring) themselves? Would you stop someone from
| using an EB or RKA on themselves, too?
It is not the use of the power, it is the abuse of the power.
<<Now we're getting confused. If it is abuse of using a power on yourself
that you're talking about, why did you say that any power which says it is
to be used on your "opponent" may not be used on yourself? Is what you
meant that a power may not be used on yourself abusively regardless of
whether it says "opponent" or not, like Absorbtion, or was this a hasty
statement not meant to support your earlier position?>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 08 Jun 1999 15:23:11 -0400
* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| Your argument, even if it were valid, still wouldn't apply to your
| claim you can't Drain yourself. Or explain why you can Aid yourself
| when you can't Drain or Transfer on yourself.
So, you really wouldn't mind me using Transform on myself, either?
[...]
| 1) It still duplicates the effect of Multipower. Therefore, by your
| argument, forbidden.
Huh? Transform vs Aid + Drain does not duplicate Multipower, since
Multipower has no effect whatsoever on someone else.
| 2) The similarities are so great that I cannot see why one should be
| allowed and the other forbidden.
That is exactly why "the other" is forbidden: Aid + Drain used this way
is specifically to duplicate the effects of Transfer.
<<Now you're saying that Transfer duplicates another power in this use
(swapping stats), and that is why it is abusive, and also why it is
forbidden. I'll ignore the issue of whether the rules expressly forbid
duplicating another power and merely ask: Why did you say that any power
which says it is to be used on your "opponent" may not be used on yourself?>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 09 Jun 1999 13:16:28 -0400
* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 08 Jun 1999
| Does this mean that I could not use an HKA on myself? Is seppuku
| impossible in Ninja Hero? If you can normally use attack powers on
| yourself, why is Transfer an exception?
There is no such thing as an "attack power". And I find the idea of
suicide as anything but "normal".
<<Here began a huge debate on what was or was not normal. Never addressed
was why what might be "normal" was relevant, but I surmise that you felt
that using Transfer on one's self as a normal behavior was abusive. I will
stipulate that it could be abused, but this only supports why the GM should
rule against it and not where the rules forbid it. In no way does the
statement that suicide is abnormal support the position that it is
impossable, and since HKA does say it is to be used on "opponents", you did
state that a HKA cannot be used on yourself.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 11 Jun 1999 21:01:08 -0400
* Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> on Fri, 11 Jun 1999
| Ok. I think we can agree that most people don't shoot themselves or
| attack themselves on a regular basis.
Good.
| However they don't because they are not inclined to, not because of
| rules. The way you've stated it you would not be able to mind control a
| normal to shoot themself.
No, the way I said it is if you want more Strength you buy more Strength.
<<As I said above, you said that a HKA cannot be used on yourself because
it says it is to be used on "opponents". You may have MEANT that it was an
inappropriate construct, but that is not what you said. Or rather, you
said that too.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 13 Jun 1999 10:45:48 -0400
* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Sun, 13 Jun 1999
| Why did this particular point come up in a discussion on whether a
| character's Powers can affect himself?
This discussion was never about whether or not a character's powers can
affect himself. The discussion is about "swapping stats" and the power(s)
best suited to it, and why Transfer is not an appropriate power, not
because Transfer will not work (it certainly will if it is reflected
(assuming it can be reflected)), but because use of Transfer is normally an
offensive action and people do not normally attack themselves.
<<You'll see, Mr. Rat, that this discussion was at least in part about
whether a character's Powers can affect himself and that it you made it
that way with something you said. Your statement that it was not about
that is therefore very confusing. Now, you have given us your full
reasoning (I think) on why it would be abusive to use Transfer for this
construct (swapping stats) but have scrupulously avoided saying that it
_could_ be deliberately used on one's self. I think we all agreed at this
point that you still felt Transfer could not be deliberately used on one's
self, and (by extention) that no power that said it was to be used on an
opponent could be deliberately used on one's self.>>-
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 13 Jun 1999 09:40:04 -0400
* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Fri, 11 Jun 1999
| All right. Why does the mage with the magic wand get Personal Immunity
| for free?
When did I ever say anything of the sort?
What I did say is that *NORMALLY* a person does not use powers offensively
against himself. That does not mean you are immune to your own Energy
Blast; it means that you will not attack yourself with it except under
extremely unusual circumstances.
<<This is the kind of thing that tweaks people. You said that any power
which says it is to be used on your "opponent" may not be used on yourself,
and here you appear to be denying having said that. Did you misstate your
position to begin with? Has your position changed?>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 14 Jun 1999 11:36:01 -0400
* Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com> on Mon, 14 Jun 1999
| Also, the character is losing something as a cost of gaining the STR; in
| a way, this is /worse/ than a normal Transfer, which is intended to hurt
| an opponent while helping yourself.
I'm not arguing whether or not it is worse than anything. I am arguing
that this is not a good way to go about creating this particular effect.
<<Not only that, you were arguing that it was flatly impossable to use that
power to achieve that effect, because "You can't use Transfer on yourself."
Further, whether it is "worse" in this context addresses whether it is
abusive.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 15 Jun 1999 15:01:46 -0400
* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Tue, 15 Jun 1999
| Yes, he did indeed say that a person was completely unable to use the
| Powers Transfer and Drain on himself.
Pardon me, but if you go back and actually read what I wrote, you will see
that what I wrote is that a person normally will not attack himself.
<<Again, the truth is you wrote both. Drain also says it is used on your
"opponent", so it was covered when you said that "if it says "opponent" you
cannot use it on yourself." Further you specificly included Drain when
asked. And again, you appear to be denying having said something you said.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 16 Jun 1999 12:16:34 -0400
* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".
Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
<<Filksinger brought this up in response to your having denied saying it in
the message above, so your reply doesn't make much sense. Filksinger did
not, at least in this part of the conversation, claim that you had said you
would be immune from an AOE or reflection, but that "(you) did indeed say
that a person was completely unable to use the Powers Transfer and Drain on
himself.>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:42:02 -0400
* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| So far the only reason I've seen you give for a character not being able
| to use Transfer on himself is that attacking oneself is not a
| psychologically normal action, yet you've agreed that a gun turned on
| oneself would certainly affect oneself. What makes Transfer different from
| RKA in this respect?
Nothing whatsoever.
<<Does this mean that you stand by your statement "if it says "opponent"
you cannot use it on yourself." And does this also mean that the only
reason you have to give for this position is that attacking oneself is not
a psychologically normal action?>>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:43:57 -0400
* geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
| So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
Read my numerous previous postings, please.
<<well, here's a fuller version of what I said:>>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:51:17 -0400
From: geoff heald <gheald@worldnet.att.net>
At 12:16 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>* "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| Your first post on the subject, dated June 6th, 1999 6:49PM, signed by
>| you using your PGP key, states, "You cannot use Transfer on yourself".
>
>Right. You cannot use Transfer on yourself. That does not mean it cannot
>affect you. Transfer reflected back at yourself certainly will affect you
>(assuming that it can be reflected in the first place). Transfer with AoE
>and you within the area of effect certainly will affect you.
So, even under dire circumstances, one could not use Transer on one's self?
a) Where in the rules does it say that?
b) Why the hell have we been arguing about what is or is not "normal"?
<<You have said "You cannot use Transfer on yourself". You have never
recanted this position. Yet you seem to imply that under certain
circumstances, dire citcumstances, you CAN use that power on yourself. Is
this what you meant? Did you never mean to imply that the rules absolutely
forbid it but simply that it is abusive and should be ruled against.
Please simply state your full position.>>
============================
Geoff Heald
============================
Attention all enemies of the Rival Ninja Corporation: You will lay down
your weapons and surrender to your nearest R.N.C. representative. Failure
to do so will result in your total destruction. Thank you.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #405
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