Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 408
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 12:19 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #408
champ-l-digest Friday, June 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 408
In this issue:
RE: Space Battleship
RE: Space Battleship
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
RE: Champions in Oz [was...heck, several things by now]
RE: Draining Innate abilities
Re: The Metric System
Re: House Rules that become "real."
Re: Draining Innate abilities
In Search of Web Page With Alternate Lifting Rules
Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
RE: Draining Innate abilities
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:04:54 +0800
From: Allan Dunbar <adunbar@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship
At 09:42 17/06/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:53 AM 6/16/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 06:08 PM 6/16/1999 +0200, Henrik Giese wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>You forgot -peta- (10^15).
>>>
>>>(Sorry, couldn't help myself)
>>>
>><<<<
>>
>> I did forget about peta.
>> (He's a nice-a guy, though.) ;-]
>>
>
>Do you know his sister tera? You really ought to meter.
>
>Bill Yottasvitavsky
>
>
>
Help...can't...no...bad...puns...urk.
Aren't there laws against this sort of punishment?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:19:43 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: Space Battleship
At 07:04 AM 6/18/1999 +0800, Allan Dunbar wrote:
>>Do you know his sister tera? You really ought to meter.
>>
>>Bill Yottasvitavsky
>>
>Help...can't...no...bad...puns...urk.
>
>Aren't there laws against this sort of punishment?
Perhaps there should be, but they'd be of little use without an effective
agency to meter out punishment for an offense. :)
Damon, who never knew battleship mass could be measured in metric puns
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:26:33 +0800
From: Allan Dunbar <adunbar@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
At 02:49 17/06/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Brian Wawrow [SMTP:bwawrow@fmco.com]
>>] I'm surprised by how many Americans had to point that out. US
>>] is correct in
>>] the US, but U.S.A is correct everywhere else, especially in
>>] countries named
>>] United States of Something Else.
>>Yea, but everybody knows who the Americans are. I may live on one of
>two
>>American continents but I'm no American.
>
>Everybody, except those south of the USA/Mexico border. Some people
>south of that border get offended when we call ourselves "Americans".
>
>Its beginning to look like we'll have to go with USA and Usans to keep
>everyone happy.:)
>
>Filksinger
>
>
But the rest of the world just calls you "Those damn Americans." Although,
Australians do have a slang word or phrase for Americans from the middle
bit. Seppos.
This takes some explaining. The term originated during world war 2, when
thousands of American soldiers were stationed in Australia prior to the
reopening of the south east asian front against Japan. This was, at the
time, a somewhat insulting term, used in a derogatry (sp) manner.
Australia, at the time, used what are called Septic Tanks, usually
underground in the back yard, to store sewerage etc. They were pumped out
every now and then when they got full (in retrospect, this was a poorly
thought out method...). When US Soldiers began arriving, they proved (same
as in England) extremely popular with the local girls, who threw themselves
at them, ignoring the local lads. In defence of their standing, the local
lads started having it said around that they yanks were septic (riddled with
all kinds of diseases) just like a septic tank. From this sprang Septic
Yank, and finally, due t the Australian love of shortening everything, Seppos.
Quite.
Anyway, this term is largely no longer in use. I think.
Then again, apprently, according to P. J. O'Rourke, Australians have more
words for vomiting than any three other continents put together. Now THERE
is something to be proud of.
As for the majority of our slang, it rings quite the same as Canada's, both
nations being former British colonies, but both nations have their own
unique slang words.
However, many Australians feel it is their solemn duty to demonstrate to
visiting Americans the strength differences in our beer. This is a matter
of great personal pride to both Australians and Canadians, who often (I have
stories from European Tour groups that would scare you) attempt to show each
other who has the strongest beer, with stomach pumping results.
However, some Americans (mostly Navy personnel) have learned to drink full
strength (6%+) with the best. I live near Fremantle, in Western Australia,
and we get an awfully large number of visits from US Navy ships. Some of
these ships come in quite regularly. Australian Pub drinkers are still
learning this apparently...
I love cultural differences, especially amongst the nations spawned by the
United Kingdom. IN a short time, we have developed our own unique cultures
and differences, and I really enjoy playing on this in my games. And it is
often the simple things too which are the funniest.
Then again, all bar one champions game I have ever played has been set in
the United States. I personally prefer to play games set in Australia (use
that local knowledge) but quite frankly, Australia does not have the "image"
popular to superhero games.
Anyway, I stop now...
Regards
Allan Dunbar
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:43:51 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: Champions in Oz [was...heck, several things by now]
At 07:26 AM 6/18/1999 +0800, you wrote:
>Then again, all bar one champions game I have ever played has been set in
>the United States. I personally prefer to play games set in Australia (use
>that local knowledge) but quite frankly, Australia does not have the "image"
>popular to superhero games.
Our gaming group ran a "shared world" campaign for a while, with individual
GMs running games set in Washington D.C., San Antonio TX and Atlanta GA.
My wife designed her game to run in Perth, but for some reason hers was the
only one that never got off the ground. She set up the background and
researched the location, and we dutifully created characters that we
thought would fit (mine was kind of a cross between Doc Savage and
Aquaman), but not one game session was ever played there.
Hmmm...Champions is not exactly a "rules light" game, and Aussies have a
reputation for having a "No rules!" attitude...I wonder if that sets up
some sort of quasi-mystical repulsion field that makes it hard to set
Champions games in Australia?
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:00:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Draining Innate abilities
From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
>--- David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> wrote:
>> >From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
>> >I disagree with this completely. You should always avoid Transform
>> >where something else exists to do it.
>>
>> Good rule of thumb, bad rule. Using this rule, many horrendously
>> abusive powers using UAO would be the right way to go, rather than a
>> reasonably priced Transform.
>
>I don't see how the amount of BODY something has should affect how well
>it is Drained.
I don't see how the cost of Desolidification should affect the cost of
turning a spirit into something clearly not a spirit.:)
>Transform is a silly mechanic for making a ghost solid.
Drain's sillier, IMHO. I'm not certain why you think Transform would be
silly. A spirit is not solid by definition; if you make it solid, you
have transformed it into something else.
>I don't understand why you think the catch-all /
>I-can't-figure-out-a-better-way mechanic is not horrendously abusive.
It can be, of course. However, your method also often is, as well. It
also creates considerable difference between how things work in HERO and
how they work in the real world.
>I prefer UAO powers. I don't think they are that abusive.
I can think of nothing in all of HERO more inherently abusive than UAO
powers. Transformation is the only thing that comes close, and even it
doesn't do it.
This statement alone convinces me that we will probably never agree.:)
>I also like
>the Usable On Other rules from HA1.
I have HA1, but I don't recall any Usable on Other rules. Are you
certain you don't mean HA2?
>Your reasonable priced Transform
>is a hack. Why not make the result of the Transform an anvil. If you
>are going to use enough power to kill your victim just to make him
>shorter/taller/solider, wouldn't you have been better served by killing
>him?
Probably. This _is_ a significant weakness of Transform. However, I
consider the considerable inconsistencies in Drain to be as bad. Most of
these are at least partially corrected by granting an "Innate" Advantage
of some sort. In fact, I think that one Advantage is insufficient, there
should be more than one.
<snip>
>
>So? I don't see the big deal here. The point system is not precise in
>HERO. There are lots of things that cost a little too much and other
>things which cost slightly too little. The GM is there to make sure
>that a balance is maintained.
So what if someone wants a perfectly reasonable power that is much too
expensive/cheap? Tell them, "Gee, that's too bad?" Do you change the
point values? How do you maintain balance?
Frankly, it doesn't sound as if you worry too much about balance. This
isn't necessarily a bad thing; many of the best games I have been in
were hideously unbalanced. However, I have found that giving too much
weight to SFX without backup by Powers/Advantages/Limitations and point
balancing destroys point balance, and if my games are going to be
unbalanced, I prefer for it to be a deliberate decision. Whenever
possible, if balance can be improved by adding in new
Powers/Advantages/Limitations, or changing old ones, then I think that
is a good thing.
>> For example, let us suppose that I want to create a character who is,
>> by nature, Desolid all the time. I discover that, in the campaign
>> universe, 95% of all Desolid beings go Desolid due to dimensional
>> shifting, and that, because of this, 95% of all Suppresses, Dispels,
>> Drains, and Transfers that are aimed at preventing the use of
>> Desolidification work against dimensional shifting. So I create Mist,
>> who is Desolid because he is a creature made of mist. I now am immune
>> to 95% of all Drains in the campaign universe for free.
>
>How many Desolid Drains are there reasonably going to be in a campaign
>anyway? If the GM thinks this is unbalanced he will say no.
"I know your Power is perfectly reasonable, and doesn't really harm the
game, but the SFX make it immune to this Power over here cheaply. Since
there is no Advantage that allows this, I'm going to ban your
construct."
I don't want the GM to declare it unbalancing. Whenever possible, I want
the construct to be designable at a reasonable price. There should, in
theory, always be a way to create a Power at a reasonable price. If the
power, when reasonably priced, is too expensive, then that balances
things nicely.
Admittedly, that is an ideal. However, it is directly opposed to giving
significant Advantages/Limitations due to SFX. SFX should give _minor_
Advantages and Limitations. "Your SFX would reasonably affect this
particular being with Innate, so it works" is minor. "Your SFX are so
different from those of everyone else in the campaign that I will give
you immunity to all presently used Drains, Transfers, Suppresses, and
Dispels" isn't.
>Yours is
>a strawman argument. What about if only 85% of the campaign's
>Desolidifications are based on dimension shifting? Or 75%? 65%?
Which is why it isn't a "straw man" argument. All of these, plus
numerous combinations, create a shifting environment where picking the
right SFX can give you significant Advantages/Limitations over (under)
other characters with the same Powers. This is something that I wish to
avoid.
>At
>what point is Mist's desolid no longer Innate? My way, the foe will
>come along eventually who can make Mist solid. Your way, there can be
>no such foe.
Of course there can. This has already been pointed out several times.
You just don't use Drain. You can't Drain water of being a fluid, or
Drain helium of being lighter than air, or Drain Growth from something
that doesn't grow, but is simply big. If you did so, you would be
transforming them to something else. This is why Transform becomes
appropriate.
>> OTOH, if we include Innate (and, preferably, other, similar,
>> Advantages), then Mist is the one who pays for the immunity, rather
>> than having the immunity for free.
>
>The problem is HERO strives not to include absolutes.
You have already given out absolutes, for free. Deciding if a power
can/cannot affect a character because of SFX automatically includes
absolutes. That is just fine, so long as it is a _minor_ Advantage.
Immunity to virtually all Drains and similar powers isn't minor; if it
was, there would be no "Difficult to Dispel"- it would be 'minor'. "His
Drain has the wrong SFX." "OK, you are immune." That is an absolute.
HERO is full of them.
If it isn't an absolute, then a big enough Drain with the wrong SFX
would still work. "I use my dimensional fixator-SFX Drain Desolid on
Mist." "He isn't shifting dimensions, so he ignores it." "I turn up the
power!" "OK, it works." That is how the power works now, since there are
no absolutes. Using SFX to declare that that wouldn't work introduces
absolutes to the equation. Not bad, so long as they are minor, but if
they are major, there is no way to pay for them under the present
system.
>I don't see why
>you being made of Mist is more Innate than the dimension shifter is.
It wouldn't necessarily be. Mist is merely an example of something that
is, by its very nature, not solid. It has no "Desolidification Power" to
Drain. A man who was simply in another universe to begin with would be
equally immune to Drain, because he has no "Desolidification Power" to
drain, either. To solidify him you would use XDim Movement, preferably.
>With Innate, your Desolid can NEVER be drained, even if someone makes a
>Drain Desolid vs mist creatures. That is not reasonable.
Yes, it can. Drain just becomes the wrong construct to do it with, when,
in order to Drain a power, you must change its physical makeup.
You should also rule that Innate Powers, by SFX, can be Drained by a
truly appropriate Drain SFX that matches that particular Innate's SFX
well. For example, suppose your Drain Desolid works by surrounding
Desolid characters with a force field that extends through the
dimensions, thus affecting dimension shifters and making them act solid
in our world as whatever happens in our world is transmitted by the
force field to other dimensions. Such a force field might also surround
Mist, giving him an effective boundary, thus giving him some of the
limitations of being solid.
<snip>
>> >Who said the ghost would be living? He could remain undead. All I
>> >was doing was making him substantial. Removing his (lowercase)
>> >innate ability to move through objects solid on this plane.
>>
>> He wouldn't have to be living. You could change him into a mobile
>> corpse, for example. However, using your method, he would be solid,
>> capable of being cut, take STUN from being punched, subject to
>> bleeding rules, etc.,. Sounds pretty much like living to me.
>
>Yes, and the Drain does it.
Which is exactly what I object to. Drain appears to me to be completely
the wrong Power to change something's physical nature.
>Or are you thinking in terms of the Spirit
>rules?
No, though I think they'd be an improvement over your method.
>I never use them. The ghost, for me, has a STUN and BODY and
>can bleed since it's not an automaton.
And for me it definitely does not.
>Drain is the way to go.
>Afterall, if I were hunting ghosts and I could Transform them in living
>corpses, wouldn't I be better served by Transforming them into
>doorknobs?
Of course. However, while that may be a weakness of Transform, it
certainly doesn't improve Drain as a candidate. At best, it gives us
_no_ good candidate.
I believe we are approaching this entire thing from two very different
points of view. Maybe it would help if I expressed my point of view as
succintly as I can. Then we would know exactly where we disagree, and
can more easily agree to disagree, if necessary.
There are many objects that are, simply by their physical composition,
already something humans are not. Elephants are big. Helium is lighter
than air. Mist is vaporous. Humans need 'Powers' to become these things;
Growth, Flight, or Desolidification, respectively.
If an object is, by its very nature, already something (such as 'not
solid'), it isn't using a 'Power'. That is its physical nature. There is
no 'Power' to Drain. Changing its physical composition so as to make it
more like a human (such shrinking an Elephant, making helium heavier
than air, or making mists hard) is _not_ a drain of a power. It is a
fundamental change in its physical composition. Drain, IMO, is most
definitely _not_ the Power to change the basic composition of an object.
That is my primary point. My other point is that making some abilities
"Innate" would eliminate a variety of odd effects. Shrinking elephants
via Drain Growth gives you a Power that shrinks anything so long as it
is bigger than you, and shrinks it differently than Shrinking already
does, giving you a strangely different Power. As is often true, the SFX
of truly unusual Powers are never properly defined ("It uses flux
energy."), resulting in no proper way to tell if a Drain Desolid works
on a character who is naturally made of mist, and, if it does, doesn't
properly explain why it doesn't make clouds solid.
Even worse is death. If you kill a ghost, then they turn solid. If you
kill a helium life-form, it becomes heavy and falls to the ground. If
you destroy a giant robot, the rubble shrinks to a pile of metal the
size/mass of a human. If you blow the head off a human-sized steel robot
(Density Increase), all the steel in his body becomes as light as human
flesh. Kill Godzilla, and he deflates like a balloon, kill a spider and
it grows to larger than most dogs.
If an object, _by its physical composition_, has qualities that humans
lack, then changing it so it loses those qualities is changing its
physical composition. Drain is _not_ the correct power for this.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:16:59 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: The Metric System
--- Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com> wrote:
> Now, who knows what a hectare is?
>
> BRI
A hectare is 10,000 square meters. This is approximately 2.4710538 acres.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:26:42 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: House Rules that become "real."
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
To: HERO System List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: House Rules that become "real."
> The first group I gamed with (HERO-wise) ignored the rules letting you
apply
> non-resistant defenses against STUN from KAs. It made for some truly
brutal
> (and short) fights ... and apparently came entirely from no one having
read
> the one page where that rule exists.
I think this is an inherent problem in having such a complicated game. The
supers game I started playing in let you take weapons and equipment away
from the villains and keep them and use them without paying points for them.
It wasn't long before we realized that this was very unbalancing to the game
and stopped.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:06:19 -0400
From: Juan Antonio Ramirez <tonio@prtc.net>
Subject: Re: Draining Innate abilities
David Nasset wrote:
> From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
> >--- David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> wrote:
> >> >From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
> >> >I disagree with this completely. You should always avoid Transform
> >> >where something else exists to do it.
> >>
> >> Good rule of thumb, bad rule. Using this rule, many horrendously
> >> abusive powers using UAO would be the right way to go, rather than a
> >> reasonably priced Transform.
> >
> >I don't see how the amount of BODY something has should affect how well
> >it is Drained.
>
> I don't see how the cost of Desolidification should affect the cost of
> turning a spirit into something clearly not a spirit.:)
I do. That cost is how much the character "paid" to be a spirit... so
that's how much has to be "taken away" to make him NOT a spirit.
>
>
> >Transform is a silly mechanic for making a ghost solid.
>
> Drain's sillier, IMHO. I'm not certain why you think Transform would be
> silly. A spirit is not solid by definition; if you make it solid, you
> have transformed it into something else.
>
Yah, and if you shoot a wall with a big enough RKA, you transform it into a
hole.
<snip>
>
> >I don't see why
> >you being made of Mist is more Innate than the dimension shifter is.
>
> It wouldn't necessarily be. Mist is merely an example of something that
> is, by its very nature, not solid. It has no "Desolidification Power" to
> Drain. A man who was simply in another universe to begin with would be
> equally immune to Drain, because he has no "Desolidification Power" to
> drain, either. To solidify him you would use XDim Movement, preferably.
>
Um, aren't a loooot of superheros born with their powers?
Innate (as in "innate", not "Innate (+1/2)") powers? By your definition,
Superman is immune to most (if not all) drains since all his powers are part
of who he is by virtue of being a Kryptonite. "Draining" his, say, heat
vision would be akin to "draining" HeliumGuy's Flight, or Misty's Desolid.
All three are "powers" only when viewed against human norm. Which is the
whole point. Powers and abilities cost points when they are different
(better) from the average human. All powers are "bought" because they are
something Average Joe doesn't have. So don't call it a "Drain Desolid"...
call it "Make Character More Normal With Respect to Solidity", because in
fact that's what a drain is (well, with the exception of stat drain). If
you were to create a campaign in a world where everybody was naturally
desolid, except for the PC's which come from a different world, then sure,
make Desolid undrainable, or actually, remove the Desolid power, and
substitute with Become Solid, because now THAT's what's different from the
norm.
> <snip>
> >> >Who said the ghost would be living? He could remain undead. All I
> >> >was doing was making him substantial. Removing his (lowercase)
> >> >innate ability to move through objects solid on this plane.
> >>
> >> He wouldn't have to be living. You could change him into a mobile
> >> corpse, for example. However, using your method, he would be solid,
> >> capable of being cut, take STUN from being punched, subject to
> >> bleeding rules, etc.,. Sounds pretty much like living to me.
> >
> >Yes, and the Drain does it.
>
> Which is exactly what I object to. Drain appears to me to be completely
> the wrong Power to change something's physical nature.
>
Why? Almost every power, well, at least a lot of other powers change
something's physical nature! HKA, RKA, HA, and EB, at least when based on
energy, change something's physical nature. Teleport changes something
physical nature, depending on SFX either the environment or the character.
<snip>
> There are many objects that are, simply by their physical composition,
> already something humans are not. Elephants are big. Helium is lighter
> than air. Mist is vaporous. Humans need 'Powers' to become these things;
So do Elephants, Helium and Mist, from a game-mechanics point of view.
>
> Growth, Flight, or Desolidification, respectively.
>
> If an object is, by its very nature, already something (such as 'not
> solid'), it isn't using a 'Power'. That is its physical nature. There is
> no 'Power' to Drain. Changing its physical composition so as to make it
> more like a human (such shrinking an Elephant, making helium heavier
> than air, or making mists hard) is _not_ a drain of a power.
Well, it is. It is a Drain of a Power (that is, the power Drain applied to
the power Power). Maybe not a drain of a power (from an SFX point of view),
but what is and what is not a drain of a power (SFX) is defined by SFX.
Heck, I might have Tunneling defined as making whatever I'm tunneling
through less solid, or make it rot or decompose or whatever. That doesn't
mean I should buy Desolid UAO, or BODY Drain, or Transform... it's still
Tunneling, because of the mechanics. It might have a "transform", "drain",
or "desolid, uao" sfx, but it's still Tunneling.
Similarly, making a ghost solid might seem like a "transform"... and that's
certainly the SFX it has, but the mechanics is clearly Desolid Drain.
> It is a
> fundamental change in its physical composition. Drain, IMO, is most
> definitely _not_ the Power to change the basic composition of an object.
As I said before... depending on SFX, a lot of powers can be said to do
that.
>
> That is my primary point. My other point is that making some abilities
> "Innate" would eliminate a variety of odd effects. Shrinking elephants
> via Drain Growth gives you a Power that shrinks anything so long as it
> is bigger than you, and shrinks it differently than Shrinking already
> does, giving you a strangely different Power.
Nah, not really. Growth Drain removes a character's ability to be larger
than normal, regardless of whether that ability is on all the time, innate,
external, or whatever. That is the game mechanics of Growth Drain.
Shrinking just makes someone smaller.
> As is often true, the SFX
> of truly unusual Powers are never properly defined ("It uses flux
> energy."), resulting in no proper way to tell if a Drain Desolid works
> on a character who is naturally made of mist, and, if it does, doesn't
> properly explain why it doesn't make clouds solid.
>
> Even worse is death. If you kill a ghost, then they turn solid. If you
> kill a helium life-form, it becomes heavy and falls to the ground. If
> you destroy a giant robot, the rubble shrinks to a pile of metal the
> size/mass of a human. If you blow the head off a human-sized steel robot
> (Density Increase), all the steel in his body becomes as light as human
> flesh. Kill Godzilla, and he deflates like a balloon, kill a spider and
> it grows to larger than most dogs.
>
That one's easy... just say it doesn't happen. Is that unbalancing in any
way whatsoever? Isn't it logical that any power bought always on remains
after death? (At least for some time, depending on SFX... a fire-based
damage shield might burn away in a couple of hours/days/whatever, while
growth stays "forever", and maybe a psychic power goes away in a matter of
minutes...)
>
> If an object, _by its physical composition_, has qualities that humans
> lack,
A lot, if not most, superheros fit this description... and I'd still say
they could be drained (in addition to Drained).
> then changing it so it loses those qualities is changing its
> physical composition. Drain is _not_ the correct power for this.
>
> Filksinger
Tonio
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: In Search of Web Page With Alternate Lifting Rules
In Search of Web Page with Alternate Lifting Rules. Goes very
in-depth with lifting.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:32:03 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Allan Dunbar wrote:
> <snip>
> However, many Australians feel it is their solemn duty to demonstrate to
> visiting Americans the strength differences in our beer. This is a matter
> of great personal pride to both Australians and Canadians, who often (I have
> stories from European Tour groups that would scare you) attempt to show each
> other who has the strongest beer, with stomach pumping results.
>
Hey, don't let those knucks fool you. Australia makes the best beer in the
world. They have some pretty darn good wine also. You Aussies better
keep on your toes though, some of our (U.S.A.) local brews can hold
their own. Its just that the big companies make so much piss water that
you never hear about our good stuff.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:45:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Bigfoot
[should I offer up Mothman and the Chupacabras as well?]
BIGFOOT
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
30* STR 10 15- 1600kg; 6d6
13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
23 CON 26 14-
16* BODY 8 12-
8 INT -2 11- PER Roll 11-
8 EGO -4 11- ECV: 3
15/20 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6 / 4d6
8 COM -1 11-
8 PD 4 Total: 10 PD / 2 PDr
5 ED 0 Total: 7 ED / 2 EDr
3 SPD 7 Phases: 4, 8, 12
9 REC 0
46 END 0
38* STUN 0 *Includes modifiers for growth
Total Characteristics Cost: 62
Movement: Running: 8" / 16"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
4 Combat Skill Levels: +2 with Arm Smash
Bigfoot Powers:
13 Great Size: Growth: Two Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always on (-1/2)
+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, -1 DCV, +1 PER roll against
9 Arm Smash: HA: +2d6, 0 END (+1/2)
8 Bite: HKA: 1/2d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), END 1
3 Fearsome Appearance: PRE: +5 (20 PRE total), Offensive Only (-1/2)
6 Thick Hide: Armor: 2 DEF
4 Long Strides: Running: +2" (8" total), END 2
Background Skills:
3 Climbing 12-
7 Stealth 14-
7 Survival 13-
5 Tracking 12-
Optional Powers:
8 Terrifying Howl: +15 PRE, Create fear only (-1/2), Incantations:
Must howl (-1/2)
15 Incredible Stink: CE: 4" radius, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)
69 Total Powers & Skills Cost
131 Total Character Cost
75+ Disadvantages
10 Enraged: If cornered, harassed or tormented 11- / 11-
15 Distinctive Features: Huge harry humanoid (NC)
15 Psychological Limitation: Shy, generally avoid human
contact (C, S)
10 Reputation: Varies upon location 11-
Optional Disadvantages:
20 Distinctive Features: Repulsive smell *or* Aura of 'evil' (NC)
6 Experience
131 Total Disadvantage Points
Appearance:
Bigfoot is probably the most well-known name for what cryptozoologist call
'hairy bipeds', a catch-all name for any number of large, hairy, ape-like
humanoids reputed to inhabit North America (as well as parts of Australia,
China and the Himalayas). The write up here is for an 'average' or
generic specimen. Most hairy bipeds (HBs for short) stand from 6' to 8'
tall, weighing something like 300 to 600 pounds. They are covered in
thick hair, and generally resemble an upright gorilla. The hair is
generally dark, usually brown or black. Some HBs are accompanied by a
nauseating stink that can be smelled long before the creature arrives.
The most recognizable trait of a HB is its tracks. Prints are almost
always 5 toes, although there have been reports of 3, 4, 6 and 7 toed
tracks. The tracks are of great size and lengths of 14-16 inches are
quite common. The strides are very long and the depth of the tracks often
indicated a weight of well over 600 pounds.
Ecology:
Most HBs seem to live in deep forests, where they live off of a wide
assortment of plants, fruits, nuts, berries and small animals. Some are
said to live in swamps (especially the 'skunk ape') where the probably
live off of an assortment of plants, amphibians and fish. HBs seem to
live alone, although those of the Pacific Northwest may live in small
family groups comprised of an adult male, and adult female and a number of
immature young.
Motivations:
Normal animal motivations. Most HBs simply want to feed and be left
alone. Some seems to be highly curious of man and come close to dwellings
to investigate houses, dogs and vehicles.
Combat Techniques:
In general a HB reacts to a threat by fleeing. Some may throw objects
(such as stones) at attackers, but most will simply lope off into the
cover of the forest. Cornering a HB is a bad idea, as most will lash out
angrily, striking with fists and biting in an effort to flee. As the
average HB is much larger (and stronger) than a man, this can be a very
dangerous moment.
Other Names: Meh-Teh, Momo, Omah, Qah-lin-me, Sasquatch, Skunk Ape,
Yeh-teh, Yeren, Yeti, Yowie
Rumors:
The rumors surrounding hairy bipeds is legion. Many reports connect them
with UFO sightings and indicate that some HBs may be some form of
extraterrestrial. Some HBs seem to be unnaturally immune to bullets as
well, and ignore high-powered rifle fire as well as close-range blasts
from shotguns. Finally, some HBs have the uncanny ability to simply
vanish in even the slightest undergrowth, while others have been said to
disappear into thin air.
Designer's Notes:
Are hairy bipeds real? The jury is still out on that one. The gorilla is
certainly real, but it was considered a myth up until about 125 years ago
or so. The mountain gorilla wasn't discovered by Europeans until early in
this century and as recently as 1992 large mammals were still be
discovered in such places as the jungles of Vietnam (a deer and a species
of oxen). If the hairy biped is real, there has been some argument that
it is a form of primate called Gigantopithecus. The primate stood upwards
of 10 feet in height and generally fits the description of the average
Bigfoot. It should be pointed out that the forests of Oregon and
Washington can get very thick and it could be very easy for a large animal
to hide within the depths. Downed planes have been lost in the woods of
Washington.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"And I, Susano, warrior-god of the Black Dragon Eye,
will teach you your proper place!!"
Susano Orbatos, _Orion_
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jun 1999 23:01:35 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
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* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Thu, 17 Jun 1999
| Of course, you can do a lot of that with a much cheaper TK..
Especially if the GM allows you to add TK Strength damage to falling
velocity damage.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:44:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
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>* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Thu, 17 Jun 1999
>| Of course, you can do a lot of that with a much cheaper TK..
>
>Especially if the GM allows you to add TK Strength damage to falling
>velocity damage.
I was just thinking in terms of lifting them. A 30 STR TK will hold most
non-bricks semi-indefinitedly, and can lift someone up to about 225", while
only costing 45 points.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:34:07 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
>>* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Thu, 17 Jun 1999
>>| Of course, you can do a lot of that with a much cheaper TK..
>>
>>Especially if the GM allows you to add TK Strength damage to falling
>>velocity damage.
>
>I was just thinking in terms of lifting them. A 30 STR TK will hold most
>non-bricks semi-indefinitedly, and can lift someone up to about 225", while
>only costing 45 points.
How about evacuating the path, to increase terminal velocity?
("Flight, UAO, uncontrolled, no attitude control" works better in the
second case)
Donald
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jun 1999 23:42:44 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
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* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Thu, 17 Jun 1999
| I was just thinking in terms of lifting them. A 30 STR TK will hold most
| non-bricks semi-indefinitedly, and can lift someone up to about 225", while
| only costing 45 points.
Sorry... I was in a game once in which the GM allowed a character with a
fair ammount of TK to lift victims high enough so that they would hit the
ground at 30D6, and he allowed the extra 12 dice for the 60 Strength to be
added. A 42D6 attack isn't too shabby for a 90 point (less Limitations)
investment.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Darkness (Was RE: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage)
>>>* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Thu, 17 Jun 1999
>>>| Of course, you can do a lot of that with a much cheaper TK..
>>>
>>>Especially if the GM allows you to add TK Strength damage to falling
>>>velocity damage.
>>
>>I was just thinking in terms of lifting them. A 30 STR TK will hold most
>>non-bricks semi-indefinitedly, and can lift someone up to about 225", while
>>only costing 45 points.
>
>How about evacuating the path, to increase terminal velocity?
>("Flight, UAO, uncontrolled, no attitude control" works better in the
>second case)
I tend to personally find most of the UAO movement powers other than
Teleport questionable when you get down to it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:18:15 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: RE: Draining Innate abilities
At 05:00 PM 6/17/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
[tremendous snip]
>>I also like the Usable On Other rules from HA1.
>
>I have HA1, but I don't recall any Usable on Other rules. Are you
>certain you don't mean HA2?
Page 17-21, HA1. I've never even seen HA2. (Not that these rules really
apply to the conversation at hand.)
>>Your reasonable priced Transform
>>is a hack. Why not make the result of the Transform an anvil. If you
>>are going to use enough power to kill your victim just to make him
>>shorter/taller/solider, wouldn't you have been better served by killing
>>him?
>
>Probably. This _is_ a significant weakness of Transform. However, I
>consider the considerable inconsistencies in Drain to be as bad. Most of
>these are at least partially corrected by granting an "Innate" Advantage
>of some sort. In fact, I think that one Advantage is insufficient, there
>should be more than one.
>
><snip>
>>
>>So? I don't see the big deal here. The point system is not precise in
>>HERO. There are lots of things that cost a little too much and other
>>things which cost slightly too little. The GM is there to make sure
>>that a balance is maintained.
>
>So what if someone wants a perfectly reasonable power that is much too
>expensive/cheap? Tell them, "Gee, that's too bad?" Do you change the
>point values? How do you maintain balance?
By GMing well. If it's "perfectly reasonable" then I don't worry about the
cost.
>Frankly, it doesn't sound as if you worry too much about balance. This
>isn't necessarily a bad thing; many of the best games I have been in
>were hideously unbalanced. However, I have found that giving too much
>weight to SFX without backup by Powers/Advantages/Limitations and point
>balancing destroys point balance, and if my games are going to be
>unbalanced, I prefer for it to be a deliberate decision. Whenever
>possible, if balance can be improved by adding in new
>Powers/Advantages/Limitations, or changing old ones, then I think that
>is a good thing.
There is a difference between unbalanced and unplayable. I play RPGs to
have a good time. I don't let the rules get in the way of that. I guess
I never make a deliberate decision to BALANCE the game.
>>> For example, let us suppose that I want to create a character who is,
>>> by nature, Desolid all the time. I discover that, in the campaign
>>> universe, 95% of all Desolid beings go Desolid due to dimensional
>>> shifting, and that, because of this, 95% of all Suppresses, Dispels,
>>> Drains, and Transfers that are aimed at preventing the use of
>>> Desolidification work against dimensional shifting. So I create Mist,
>>> who is Desolid because he is a creature made of mist. I now am immune
>>> to 95% of all Drains in the campaign universe for free.
>>
>>How many Desolid Drains are there reasonably going to be in a campaign
>>anyway? If the GM thinks this is unbalanced he will say no.
>
>"I know your Power is perfectly reasonable, and doesn't really harm the
>game, but the SFX make it immune to this Power over here cheaply. Since
>there is no Advantage that allows this, I'm going to ban your
>construct."
That sentense makes no sense. I don't have Innate in my game, therefore
the SFX will not be immune to all Powers. Someone will come along with the
counter-Power. I'm one of those GMs who will give you enough rope to hang
yourself. If you make a combat monster, I will make sure there are
occasional combats that he cannot shine in, or more precisely, that a
combat will be stacked so that other characters shine. No die roll fudges,
just judicious placement of the opponents to minimize the combat monster's
effectiveness.
[tremendous snip]
>>> >Who said the ghost would be living? He could remain undead. All I
>>> >was doing was making him substantial. Removing his (lowercase)
>>> >innate ability to move through objects solid on this plane.
>>>
>>> He wouldn't have to be living. You could change him into a mobile
>>> corpse, for example. However, using your method, he would be solid,
>>> capable of being cut, take STUN from being punched, subject to
>>> bleeding rules, etc.,. Sounds pretty much like living to me.
>>
>>Yes, and the Drain does it.
>
>Which is exactly what I object to. Drain appears to me to be completely
>the wrong Power to change something's physical nature.
This is where we are disagreeing. Don't take the following paragraph the
wrong way. I don't mean to be pedantic.
Drain is the name of HERO Power construct which alters the number of Active
Points in a target's specified HERO Power construct. The ghost has a HERO
Power construct, Desolidification, which makes it able to move through
walls and be immune to most HERO Combat effects. This HERO Power construct
defines the ghost's physical nature. To alter its physical nature, you
have to remove the HERO Power construct which defines said nature. Whether
you Drain the active points from the construct, or remove the construct
with Transform, the net result is a change to the ghost's character sheet:
Desolification is no longer active/there.
>There are many objects that are, simply by their physical composition,
>already something humans are not. Elephants are big. Helium is lighter
>than air. Mist is vaporous. Humans need 'Powers' to become these things;
>Growth, Flight, or Desolidification, respectively.
Wrong. Power constructs define the abilities of all things in a HERO game.
Does a Hobbit/halfling have to have one level of shrinking, Persistent,
Always On? I say "No." The only reason to include shringing in the
halfling racial construct is to give it bonuses to DCV, etc. Height and
weight are special effects.
HERO would be a better system if all characters started as nothing and all
of the default powers had to be bought. I do believe a standard human
costs 145 points or so to be able to breathe, see, hear, etc.
>If an object is, by its very nature, already something (such as 'not
>solid'), it isn't using a 'Power'. That is its physical nature. There is
>no 'Power' to Drain. Changing its physical composition so as to make it
>more like a human (such shrinking an Elephant, making helium heavier
>than air, or making mists hard) is _not_ a drain of a power. It is a
>fundamental change in its physical composition. Drain, IMO, is most
>definitely _not_ the Power to change the basic composition of an object.
Yes, it is using a HERO Power. Right, "changing its physical composition
so as to make it more like a human is _not_ a drain of a power," however,
"changing its physical composition so as to make it more like a human is a
[HERO Power Drain] of a [HERO Power]."
That is what I am arguing.
>That is my primary point. My other point is that making some abilities
>"Innate" would eliminate a variety of odd effects. Shrinking elephants
>via Drain Growth gives you a Power that shrinks anything so long as it
>is bigger than you, and shrinks it differently than Shrinking already
>does, giving you a strangely different Power.
You never did answer how you apply "equal" levels of Shrinking and Growth
at the same time. If you use Shrinking UAO on an elephant, the tiny
elephant does not lose any hexes of extra reach that if had while normal
sized. If you use the Transform, it costs much more.
>As is often true, the SFX
>of truly unusual Powers are never properly defined ("It uses flux
>energy."), resulting in no proper way to tell if a Drain Desolid works
>on a character who is naturally made of mist, and, if it does, doesn't
>properly explain why it doesn't make clouds solid.
Bad GM. No biscuit. Don't allow not properly defined SFX. Or, any power
which is not sufficiently SFXed is affected by things that are constructed
better.
>Even worse is death. If you kill a ghost, then they turn solid. If you
>kill a helium life-form, it becomes heavy and falls to the ground. If
>you destroy a giant robot, the rubble shrinks to a pile of metal the
>size/mass of a human. If you blow the head off a human-sized steel robot
>(Density Increase), all the steel in his body becomes as light as human
>flesh. Kill Godzilla, and he deflates like a balloon, kill a spider and
>it grows to larger than most dogs.
I don't think you'll like this answer either, but death is also a SFX.
Besides there is alread a BBB method to deal with this. You could always
buy Godzilla with Uncontrolled Growth if you really care about what happens
after death. An Uncontrolled Power will outlive its owner.
>If an object, _by its physical composition_, has qualities that humans
>lack, then changing it so it loses those qualities is changing its
>physical composition. Drain is _not_ the correct power for this.
That last sentense I will agree with. Drain is merely _a_ correct HERO
Power for that. :-) It is also preferrable in some instances.
Joe
P.S. Also read Juan Antonio Ramirez's response. He touched on a few things
I missed. Thanks, Tonio!
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #408
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