Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 411
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 5:17 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #411
champ-l-digest Friday, June 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 411
In this issue:
Re: Castling
Re: Castling
Re: Castling
Trading Places (Was Castling)
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Castling
PBEM Starting Up
RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
Re: Castling
Re: Castling
Re: Trading Places (Was Castling)
Delayed effect and AID
Re: Castling
RE: Top 5 things
DB Cooper [was RE: CHAR: Bigfoot]
Re: Castling
[Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410
Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410
Re: Castling
Re: Castling
Re: Top 5 things
Re: Castling
RE: Top 5 things
Re: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)
Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
Re: Castling
Re: Castling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:50:01 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 09:10 AM 6/18/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>The characters are a pair of identical twins. This is *two* PCS, played by
>two different players. They have different skill sets, PsychLims etc.
>Their main power is "castling". That is, they can physically switch places
>(only with each other). The power goes off only if both parties are
>willing, or, at least, unresisting (if one PC is, say, unconscous, the other
>can pull off the effect, but it takes greater effort).
Just use Limited Power (Conditional Power) for this; set the value based on
how often the other twin is going to resist the transfer. Subjective, but
not complicated. Note, however, that if one PC tends to be a lot more
cooperative than the other, the two PCs could get different values for the
same Limitation!
>
>The issues are (and I just know I'll remember more after I
>post this):
>
>- The power is really split between the two PCs. Conceptually,
> unless one PC is unable to use the power, END cost would be
> split between the PCs. So should both PCs have to pay full
> points for something they really only get half of?
It really sounds more like a Conditional Power both twins have, as
described above, but you can always give each twin Reduced END Cost on his
"half" of the power. Perhaps you could build the Teleport in such a way
that each twin has the ability to 'port 2x mass (+5 points each), but that
when that ability is being used, twice the normal END is used -- or rather,
the Reduced END Advantage doesn't apply in that situation.
That way, twins in cooperation could switch places, each paying half the
normal END cost for the Teleport; but it one twin wants to switch places
with his unconcious counterpart, he has to pay END for both of them.
>- Casting is pretty obviously a variant on Teleportation. On
> the other hand, it's not (in this case) really a movement
> power. The cost goes up according to distance out of
> proportion of the usefulness of effect. Conceptually, the
> distance limit should be based on the mental link between
> the twins, not the physical distance separating them.
Can't help you there, at least not until Increased Scale is available.
Let's see how much that would help...rounded off, the Earth measures about
24,000 miles around the Equator, so if the twins are limited to Earth, they
could never be more than 12,000 miles apart. 12,000 miles = 19,200km = 9.6
million hexes, 9600 Kilohexes, or 9.6 Megahexes.
20 Character points to Teleport 10", with a +2 Advantage to convert that to
the Megahex scale, is an entirely reasonable 60 base points. Allowing
global coverage for a +2 Advantage on the base cost of a power will
frequently be unbalancing, but in this case I don't think it would be a
problem.
Of course those 60 points don't cover the 2x mass or Reduced END Cost
mentioned earlier, nor the 1 point each twin will need to spend for a
memorized fixed location (you can only 'port to a location you can't see if
you have it memorized).
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:57:13 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 12:20 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>- Casting is pretty obviously a variant on Teleportation. On
>> the other hand, it's not (in this case) really a movement
>> power. The cost goes up according to distance out of
>> proportion of the usefulness of effect. Conceptually, the
>> distance limit should be based on the mental link between
>> the twins, not the physical distance separating them.
>
>You could make a case, then, for building this with Extra-Dimensional
>Movement. It's become fairly common for people to use X-Dim for
>interplanetary travel
It seems to me XDM specifically prohibits this: "Extra-Dimensional
Movement does not give the character any enhanced movement in our world; a
character in New York cannot transport himself to Valhalla and then back to
Tokyo."
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:12:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Castling
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
> At 12:20 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> >
> >You could make a case, then, for building this with Extra-Dimensional
> >Movement. It's become fairly common for people to use X-Dim for
> >interplanetary travel
>
> It seems to me XDM specifically prohibits this: "Extra-Dimensional
> Movement does not give the character any enhanced movement in our world; a
> character in New York cannot transport himself to Valhalla and then back to
> Tokyo."
On the other hand, XDM is certainly cheaper and more in line with the
usefulness of the power 'Teleport me only to my home base in Andromeda
Galaxy'. The rule you cite is pretty much there to avoid using XDM as a
replacement for Teleport. "Oh, I XDM to the other dimension and them XDM
back 2" behind my opponent..." is abusive, but "I XDM to (given single
spot)" isn't really. IMHO.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:21:03 -0400
From: Chris Hartjes <chartjes@littlehart.net>
Subject: Trading Places (Was Castling)
I just remembered where I had seen a similar thing to this. I remember a
cheesy DC comic book mini-series called "Congorilla" where there was a huge
white ape and an explorer who could trade places via a magical ring, with
the explorer going into the ape body and the ape into a human body. Very
cool as I remember.
Chris Hartjes
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:32:16 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
>> 4. Add +5 points per 2X DNPCs.
>
>Oh! A very good idea that I've never run across or thought of before,
>despite several occasions where I had DNPC groups. I don't have my BBB
>handy, but now I'm wondering - has a Variable DNPC evern been explicitly
>allowed? Every game I've ever run or played in has allowed the "friend in
>need for the duration of the adventure" construction, but I'm not sure if
>the official DNPC description mentions it.
I like that too, and will add it in. I have had a character with a DNPC
girlfriend of the week once, there was a different girl. I also let a
character take a damsel in distress DNPC, she would be someone different
when it came up.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:29:01 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 11:57 AM 6/18/99 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>At 12:20 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>>- Casting is pretty obviously a variant on Teleportation. On
>>> the other hand, it's not (in this case) really a movement
>>> power. The cost goes up according to distance out of
>>> proportion of the usefulness of effect. Conceptually, the
>>> distance limit should be based on the mental link between
>>> the twins, not the physical distance separating them.
>>
>>You could make a case, then, for building this with Extra-Dimensional
>>Movement. It's become fairly common for people to use X-Dim for
>>interplanetary travel
>
>It seems to me XDM specifically prohibits this: "Extra-Dimensional
>Movement does not give the character any enhanced movement in our world; a
>character in New York cannot transport himself to Valhalla and then back to
>Tokyo."
>
Yes, which is why I'm reluctant to expand it as freely as I've seen some
people do. But I can see that the distinctions do get a little fuzzy
sometimes. Teleporting to Mars is, in most campaigns, the functional
equivalent of travelling to another dimension; you're somewhere that
you're not likely to get to any other way. And it doesn't really matter if
you're on Mars, Saturn, or half way across the galaxy - you're just
"somewhere else", so why should the distance be a factor?
That's the logic, anyway. I'd rather see the cost of extremely long range
Teleportation become less prohibitive; fortunately, it appears the 5th
edition will take care of this.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:41:12 -0400
From: Chris Hartjes <chartjes@littlehart.net>
Subject: PBEM Starting Up
I am starting up another game set in the Quantum Universe
(http://roswell.fortunecity.com/daniken/79/quantum.htm) but with a slightly
different twist. This game will take place in outer space mostly. I'm
looking for a L.E.G.I.O.N / Legion Of Superheroes type of feel.
Submitors are encouraged to create alien races and backgrounds for the
planets from which they come from. The game will be a standard Champions
one, 150 points + 100 in disadvantages. This is a great opportunity for
people to play an alien so let your mind go nuts. Keep in mind that
humanoid-type aliens are probably best as concepts that are just too weird
to fit in will be rejected. After all, this is a superhero game...
The premise is that this team has been put together by the members of one of
the more prosperous federation/republic of planets in order to combat
threats, both domestic and abroad. Extra considertion would go to concepts
of human harbingers (see the web site for details) who manage to get
themselves that far out into space and on one of the planets in the
federation/republic/whatever.
Send CONCEPTS ONLY to me. I am looking to fill four positions as one is
already taken by my sister Lisa's character. I look forward to seeing some
cool alien characters and submissions can be sent to
chartjes@littlehart.net.
Chris Hartjes
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:36:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: The Metric System [was...Space Battleship]
From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
>* David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com> on Wed, 16 Jun 1999
>| >How many Newtons do you weigh?
>| Newtons are not a measure of weight.
>
>Weight is a force. Pound is a measurement of force. Newton is also a
>measurement of force. Yes, weight is measured in Newtons.
Rats. I thought I deleted that message rather than send it out.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:57:52 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Castling
> Another (very weird) way of building this just occurred to me: each twin
> could take a Multiform, the second form being the other twin. The
multiform
> would take a limitation that the two would have to change forms
> simultaneously. It's interesting to think about, but I wouldn't do it this
> way. Teleportation or Extra-Dimensional Movement are clearly better
choices.
If the GM allows the EDM to move the character in this manner, well and
good. If Teleportation is required, as strict use of the rules indicates, it
becomes prohibitively expensive to buy this cute trick.
On the other hand, Multiform is inexpensive, and the 22 points it costs
matches up about right to the normal utility of the power. And it really is
more what they're doing, switching identities with his twin, even though the
special effect of the power is Teleportation.
How about this: I have one character who is Dimensionally Transendental,
which rather than meaning he's bigger on the inside than the outside in this
case means he exists on multiple dimensions at once. Now, each of those
forms, which are not played independentally during the game, have their own
lives but only come up when the main character switches places with them for
a time. Do I then buy Dimensional Movement, Teleport, and Duplication to
simulate this? Or do I buy Multiform? And if I buy Multiform for this, why
is it a problem to do so for the castler?
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:01:35 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 01:29 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>It seems to me XDM specifically prohibits this: "Extra-Dimensional
>>Movement does not give the character any enhanced movement in our world; a
>>character in New York cannot transport himself to Valhalla and then back to
>>Tokyo."
>
>Yes, which is why I'm reluctant to expand it as freely as I've seen some
>people do. But I can see that the distinctions do get a little fuzzy
>sometimes. Teleporting to Mars is, in most campaigns, the functional
>equivalent of travelling to another dimension; you're somewhere that
>you're not likely to get to any other way. And it doesn't really matter if
>you're on Mars, Saturn, or half way across the galaxy - you're just
>"somewhere else", so why should the distance be a factor?
I agree with you and Dr. N, that this is a case where common sense might
dictate the use of a reasonably priced XDM-based power rather than a
horrifically expensive Teleport. I merely pointed out that the letter of
the rules pretty clearly do not permit it. If you take the position that
it doesn't violate the *spirit* of that rule, and make a conscious choice
to override that rule as written for your campaign, no problem, I might do
the same.
And yes, for those people who didn't adopt the MegaHex scale way back in
Star Hero, it does appear that 5th Ed Hero will provide a solution --
Increased Scale, or MegaScale or whatever it's called -- that will not
require ignoring any of the restrictions that are currently inherent to XDM.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:09:12 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Trading Places (Was Castling)
At 01:21 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Chris Hartjes wrote:
>I just remembered where I had seen a similar thing to this. I remember a
>cheesy DC comic book mini-series called "Congorilla" where there was a huge
>white ape and an explorer who could trade places via a magical ring, with
>the explorer going into the ape body and the ape into a human body. Very
>cool as I remember.
Rick Jones and Mar-Vell had separate physical identities, and traded places
using the nega-bands, unlike Billy Batson and Captain Marvel.
Haiata (sp?) used the beta capsule to "become" Ultraman. I haven't seen
Ultraman since I was about nine years old, and can't remember what happened
to the Science Patrol member's body, but Ultraman's robotic form, in any
case, vanished from Earth orbit and took Haiata's place, so I think it fits
as well.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:42:14 -0700
From: feywulf <feywulf@geocities.com>
Subject: Delayed effect and AID
If a delayed effect power is aided to more than its normal active points
and is stored, but isn't used until after some but not all of the aided
points have faded, what happens?
Suppose a wizard uses his 10d6 aid fire spells to aid his 2d6 RKA
delayed effect personal immunity explosion fire ball spell that normally
has 60 active points up 60 more active points and stores it. The
fireball is now a 120 active point 4d6 explosion power. If he waits 6
turns so 30 active points have faded, doesn't switch his aid to a
different fire spell, and then uses the stored fireball, how many d6
does it do?
What if he does switch the aid to a different fire spell before using
the stored fireball?
feywulf
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:27:37 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 11:57 AM 6/18/1999 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:
>On the other hand, Multiform is inexpensive, and the 22 points it costs
>matches up about right to the normal utility of the power. And it really is
>more what they're doing, switching identities with his twin, even though the
>special effect of the power is Teleportation.
Perhaps it just demonstrates a lack of mental flexibility on my part, but I
always balk at constructions where a power is built using a mechanic that
is /completely/ unrelated to what's actually happening, and the logical (if
more expensive) mechanic dismissed as a special effect. "Flight, Must
touch the ground" to simulate Running is one thing -- at least they're both
Movement Powers -- but I just find it hard to get my mind around the idea
that simultaneous long-range transport is best done using a mechanic
designed to alter one's physical form.
Not to mention the extra bookkeeping involved in using Multiform: any time
one twin uses XPTS to alter his own abilities, the other twin will have to
make the same changes in his Multiform. This could raise the cost of the
extra form past the point where the base form would be able to pay for it.
Example: Eng and Chang can trade places with each other; Eng has bought
Chang as a Multiform and vice versa. Over the course of several games, Eng
earns 10 XPTS and spends them to improve his abilities; Chang must spend
(10/5=2) points to alter his Eng-form to match. If Chang only has 1 XPT
free at the moment, he can't do it. Also, because "the maximum points the
second form can have is equal to the total points in the base form minus
all Multiform costs" you could wind up with a weird recursive situation
where Eng can only continue to spend XPTS to improve himself as long as
Chang does also, and at more or less the same rate.
The whole idea gives me a headache, but I am only expressing a personal
view here, not trying to say your idea is invalid for your campaign, or Mr.
Rudy's, or for anyone else who cares to use it.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:44:19 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Top 5 things
> -----Original Message-----
> OK Champions 5th is coming out, and we all know a little about what it
will
> have different, how bout sounding off on the top 5 things that you wish
> they had changed or added, whether they did or not?
Here's mine:
1) Reconcile the growth/shrinking mismatch.
2) Unify the incomplete character rules.
3) Correct HA cost. (done)
4) Make some provision for adjusting the cost of Damage Reduction based on
either the point base or DC limits of the game. With a fixed cost, no
one wants it in a low power (75+75) game (PD/ED being more effective),
and everyone wants it in a high power (150+225 or higher) game.
5) Make the DEX penalty for a dive for cover roll = -1 for the first hex,
-1 additional per x2 hexes. (A minor change, but I think it's more
consistent). The distance is usually limited by the target's half move
anyway.
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:49:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: DB Cooper [was RE: CHAR: Bigfoot]
>>It should be pointed out that the forests of Oregon and
>>Washington can get very thick and it could be very easy for a large
animal
>>to hide within the depths. Downed planes have been lost in the woods
of
>>Washington.
>
> Those same forests are credited, in part, with the success of D. B.
>Cooper.
Assuming D. B. Cooper was successful. One of the parachutes used by D.
B. Cooper was bad (a mistake, as the FBI didn't know it wouldn't be a
hostage wearing it). And there is some evidence that he may have needed
money a short while later, possibly due to losing the money in a
parachute accident (since parachuting into thick forests is difficult
and often fatal).
According to the FBI, a man (whose name I cannot remember, blast it all)
pulled a nearly identical job only a few months later.
He hijacked the same design of plane, committed a virtual carbon copy of
the crime, and the only noteworthy differences in the two crimes was
that the criminal in the later crime didn't ask questions like, "How do
I open this hatch?" that D. B. Cooper asked. He was identified by
witnesses as D. B. Cooper. Possessions left behind by D. B. Cooper were
identified as his by his mother.
Since they caught him cold the second time, and had him dead to rights
on a charge that sent him up for 20+ years, the FBI didn't feel it would
be worthwhile to charge him as D. B. Cooper. He later escaped, robbed
some banks, and was killed in a gunfight with FBI agents.
Not nearly as interesting as the theories that he is living it up in
Rio. OTOH, that means the rest of the money may still be in those
mountains....
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:01:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Castling
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, James Jandebeur wrote:
> If the GM allows the EDM to move the character in this manner, well and
> good. If Teleportation is required, as strict use of the rules indicates, it
> becomes prohibitively expensive to buy this cute trick.
>
> On the other hand, Multiform is inexpensive, and the 22 points it costs
> matches up about right to the normal utility of the power. And it really is
> more what they're doing, switching identities with his twin, even though the
> special effect of the power is Teleportation.
Actually, there are some major problems with using Multiform in this
instance.
The characters are two *different* characters, played by two *different*
players - as stated in the original post.
Let's look at this situation:
Twin 1 is at a diplomatic dinner in Latvia. Twin 2 is in New York. Twin
2 is set upon by a gang of thugs...but Twin 1 is the martial arts expert.
He contacts Twin 1 mentally and arranges for the 'switch', but is
clobbered before he finishes. Twin 2 takes STUN and BODY, Twin 1 takes
STUN.
Now, they swap. Twin 1 appears in New York and proceeds to kick butt,
while Twin 2 is at a fancy state dinner, and has no idea who this person
is that is talking to him ina foreign language...
Anyway, the problems with Multiform are, as I see them:
* 1 player is controlling Twinform 1 at all times, the other player is
controlling Twinform 2. Multiform would have bodies switching but not
minds, so sometimes Player 1 would be controlling Twinform2 and vice
versa.
* Wounds on Twinform 1 of Character 1 do not carry over directly to
Twinform 1 of Character 2, which they should.
* The minds (as well as the controlling players) would not be swapped when
the power is activated.
* Items picked up by Twinform 1 of Character 1 would not be available to
Twinform 1 of Character 2, which doesn't fit.
Some of those problems could be fixed easily, other are much more
difficult. In any case, using XDM avoids all of the problems as well as
providing a situation where the mechanics of the power more closely model
the SFX, which is generally desirable.
> How about this: I have one character who is Dimensionally Transendental,
> which rather than meaning he's bigger on the inside than the outside in this
> case means he exists on multiple dimensions at once. Now, each of those
> forms, which are not played independentally during the game, have their own
> lives but only come up when the main character switches places with them for
> a time. Do I then buy Dimensional Movement, Teleport, and Duplication to
> simulate this? Or do I buy Multiform? And if I buy Multiform for this, why
> is it a problem to do so for the castler?
It's not a problem for this character, but it is for the castler, since
the two twins are spearate PCs.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:04:21 EDT
From: Akirazeta@aol.com
Subject: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
I know that HERO games has stated that the book will have both fuzion and
HERO system versions of all material, but does that mean that the base Fuzion
system will be included in the 5th Ed rules book?
That make things a lot easier for people like me, who love the HERO power
creation system, but dont like the combat complexity so much
:)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:05:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 Akirazeta@aol.com wrote:
> I know that HERO games has stated that the book will have both fuzion and
> HERO system versions of all material, but does that mean that the base Fuzion
> system will be included in the 5th Ed rules book?
I wil say the answer to that is 'no'.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"We are men of action. Lies do not become us."
Westley, the Man in Black (Cary Elwes), from _The Princess Bride_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:10:55 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410
In a message dated 6/18/99 9:50:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org writes:
<< OK Champions 5th is comin out, >>
No, folks. This is inaccurate. Please help Hero Games spread the truth. ;)
They are releaseing the 5th Ed. Hero System rule book.
Not "Champions" 5th. Hero System 5th.
Everyone repeat after me... ;)
Mark @ GRG
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:14:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: champ-l-digest V1 #410
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:
> << OK Champions 5th is comin out, >>
>
> No, folks. This is inaccurate. Please help Hero Games spread the truth. ;)
>
> They are releaseing the 5th Ed. Hero System rule book.
>
> Not "Champions" 5th. Hero System 5th.
>
> Everyone repeat after me... ;)
IMMMMM-HOOO-Tep!
IMMMMM-HOOO-Tep!
IMMMMM-HOOO-Tep!
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"We are men of action. Lies do not become us."
Westley, the Man in Black (Cary Elwes), from _The Princess Bride_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Castling
Personally, I would use Summoning. I don't care that you cannot Summon
specific people, that is a silly restriction. It's already a stop sign
power, it may as well include warnings about using it with specific
characters.
Two simultaneous Summons would solve all of the XDM, long range
Teleport and Multiform problems. It costs a little bit more that just
the Multiform but at least damage on each character stays with the
proper PLAYER. With Multiform there are really 4 characters instead of
2.
What I like about this power is that you cannot switch if one twin has
aborted their next phase. That could be funny. ("Let's switch
already!" "Can't I'm still dodging until phase 9.")
Joe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:18:32 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Castling
> Not to mention the extra bookkeeping involved in using Multiform: any
time
> one twin uses XPTS to alter his own abilities, the other twin will have to
> make the same changes in his Multiform. This could raise the cost of the
> extra form past the point where the base form would be able to pay for it.
You forgot about the fact that if the forms have taken differing amounts of
Stun (or other effects: Body or Transform damage, as well), it will either
requrire GM fiat or a complex mess of abilities to have it work out
logically that the two people who have switched places have taken the same
amounts. Either that or they have to both take the same effects, which is
unlike what the requestor wanted (which appeared to be more each person
takes half the damage the other took, or thereabouts).
> The whole idea gives me a headache, but I am only expressing a personal
> view here, not trying to say your idea is invalid for your campaign, or
Mr.
> Rudy's, or for anyone else who cares to use it.
Didn't think you were doing anything else, just presenting the arguments and
problems so that the requestor can make the choices. My preference would
lean towards having both of them have the EDM, myself, but that's not
technically correct.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:01:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Top 5 things
> 2. Charges is worth an extra -1/2 Limitation (or +1/2 less Advantage)
>on a Power that normally does not cost END.
interpetationally, it already does. I'd certainly find it hard pressed to
tell someone taking charges on something that didn't cost Endurance that
they couldn't apply the equivelent of 'Costs Endurance' as a Limitation first.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:37:19 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Castling
> Actually, there are some major problems with using Multiform in this
> instance.
>
> The characters are two *different* characters, played by two *different*
> players - as stated in the original post.
I'm aware of that: when I originally presented the possibility (not that I
was the only one), I mentioned that it would require the GM's lenience in
letting the two players switch characters, in effect. The idea of the
memories effectively "switching places" I would not find overly onerous, it
could just be allowed. The damage could be a problem, but on the other hand,
it may never get to the point where the advantages truly outway the
disadvantages, so it is possible that even that might be waived for special
effect. Or not, as the case may be. But there is no good way to do it that
isn't either a mess or doesn't require GM's intervention.
> Some of those problems could be fixed easily, other are much more
> difficult. In any case, using XDM avoids all of the problems as well as
> providing a situation where the mechanics of the power more closely model
> the SFX, which is generally desirable.
Yes, but it is technically illegal. Note the first thing I said in the post:
"If the GM allows the EDM to move the character in this manner, well and
good."
If this power is allowed to work to move the two people to the other
location, that's certainly the way to go, and I have never disputed that. If
it is not, I don't think using Teleport is going to give you a reasonable
cost power for the effect. Since the effect is switching places, and since
each of them could have had a full blown multiform with no limitations to
turn into the other for a lower cost than the limited Teleport is going to
be (and that's only if they're on the same planet), it would seem to be an
unbalanced ability at that point.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:19:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: RE: Top 5 things
>4) Make some provision for adjusting the cost of Damage Reduction based on
> either the point base or DC limits of the game. With a fixed cost, no
> one wants it in a low power (75+75) game (PD/ED being more effective),
> and everyone wants it in a high power (150+225 or higher) game.
This strikes me as related to an observation I made about certain mechanical
structures in Hero; in a high powered game, many of the value/+10/+20/+30
structures are probably out of wack because the higher levels are
preportionately too easy to get. Assume that in a particular high powered
game that you go from 12D6 Mind Control and a 10 Ego to 24D6 Mind Control
and a 20 Ego. Under the rules, the Mind Control actually gets _more_
effective. Similar things happen with Presence Attacks, knockout effects,
and others.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 04:45:38 +0800
From: Allan Dunbar <adunbar@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Beers (was The Metric System)
At 09:43 18/06/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Allan Dunbar writes:
>> However, many Australians feel it is their solemn duty to demonstrate to
>> visiting Americans the strength differences in our beer. This is a matter
>> of great personal pride to both Australians and Canadians, who often (I have
>> stories from European Tour groups that would scare you) attempt to show each
>> other who has the strongest beer, with stomach pumping results.
>>
>> However, some Americans (mostly Navy personnel) have learned to drink full
>> strength (6%+) with the best. [...]
>
> Someday when you'r on this side of the pond, you'll have to come
>by our place for a pint of Dark Sleep Chocolate Stout homebrew :-).
>
>
Which naturally brings up the topic of Guiness. Hmmmm.....
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:59:38 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Bigfoot
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 10:45 PM 6/17/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >
> >Other Names: Meh-Teh, Momo, Omah, Qah-lin-me, Sasquatch, Skunk Ape,
> >Yeh-teh, Yeren, Yeti, Yowie
>
> Don't forget lumberjacks. And Howard Stern. ;-]
>
Now that's plain cruel, grouping the Sasquatch in with such talentless
pieces of s**t like Howard Stern. I mean really Stern couldn't win a
debate against a piece of lint. The Sasquatch have been hiding from
use for centuries. Don't insult creature smart enough to stay as far
away form humans as possible by comparing them to the dregs of
out society.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:32:37 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 09:10 AM 6/18/1999 PDT, S A Rudy wrote:
>I have a question of how people would build a particular effect. I've
>actually written up these characters before (somewhere), but the result was
>awfully messy. I'll do the description first, then mention the issues that
>have come up.
>
>The characters are a pair of identical twins. This is *two* PCS, played by
>two different players. They have different skill sets, PsychLims etc.
>Their main power is "castling". That is, they can physically switch places
>(only with each other). The power goes off only if both parties are
>willing, or, at least, unresisting (if one PC is, say, unconscous, the other
>can pull off the effect, but it takes greater effort).
>
>The issues are (and I just know I'll remember more after I
>post this):
>
>- The power is really split between the two PCs. Conceptually,
> unless one PC is unable to use the power, END cost would be
> split between the PCs. So should both PCs have to pay full
> points for something they really only get half of?
Yes and no. I'd charge each the full amount, but with Limitations that
reduce the cost based on the fact that it affects both of them. For
example, I'd import the "Target Must Have Matching Power" from Mind Link
for a -1 Limitation; that, plus not charging END for certain Advantages
when not used, should give something close to the effect you're after here.
I also like to charge a -1 Limitation for a "shared power" that only
goes off when a certain comrade (usually a twin, like this) is needed to
use it. While it could be argued (probably successfully) that this
essentially matches the "Target Must Have Matching Power" Limitation, I'd
provide it as something equivalent to an OAF Limitation, or "Two Man Firing
Team."
>- Casting is pretty obviously a variant on Teleportation. On
> the other hand, it's not (in this case) really a movement
> power. The cost goes up according to distance out of
> proportion of the usefulness of effect. Conceptually, the
> distance limit should be based on the mental link between
> the twins, not the physical distance separating them.
I can see a number of different way to work this out.
Arguably, the best option is to use Extra-Dimensional Movement rather
than Teleportation. It's a stretch of the letter of the rules, I'll admit,
but for the purpose I'd say it's the best choice where your concern about
the cost is an issue.
This would probably be built as Extra-Dimensional Movement, single
dimension (location of twin), 2X Mass, Usable Against One Other at Range,
Indirect (any location), Transdimensional (single dimension, location of
twin), Target Must have Matching Extra-Dimensional Movement (-1), Only to
Exchange Places With Twin (-1), Shared Power (-1).
By my calculations, that comes to a real cost of 22 points. With an
Active Cost of 88 points, it costs 9 END; however, if both use it
simultaneously, they only have to pay for the END of the base Power and not
the Advantages, meaning each pays 2 END. (This is admittedly not a
by-the-book interpretation -- normally a Power with Advantages must pay the
END of the Advantages whether they're effective or not -- but I think it's
an appropriate one for this situation).
On the other hand, if you don't like that variant, you can just have
them take 1/2 END Cost with the actual "Two Man Firing Team" Limitation. :-]
(Of course, if you don't like the XDM option at all, I think that the
Multiform version is kinda cool!)
>- The other tricky thing to build was the "my twin feels my
> pain" effect. What I wound up doing was having both PCs
> take the Limitation x1 1/2 stun from most attacks and just
> worked out with the GM that the "extra 1/2" always goes to
> the other PC. This, however, required a house rule (well
> GM fiat anyway) to accomplish.
I've written characters with this effect, and also used a House Rule,
but with the Vulnerability Disadvantage. I've used Vulnerability in
several cases to indicate a character who takes STUN or BODY from attacks
that don't normally do STUN or BODY damage; for instance, a photosensitive
character takes STUN from visual Flash attacks. To take 1/2x effect like
this is worth the same as a normal 1-1/2x Vulnerability; to take full
effect from this variant is the same as a normal 2X Vulnerability. In this
case, use the Vulnerability against "attacks against twin," which would be
either Common or Very Common.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:26:46 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Castling
At 11:57 AM 6/18/1999 -0500, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
>>
>>You could make a case, then, for building this with Extra-Dimensional
>>Movement. It's become fairly common for people to use X-Dim for
>>interplanetary travel
>
>It seems to me XDM specifically prohibits this: "Extra-Dimensional
>Movement does not give the character any enhanced movement in our world; a
>character in New York cannot transport himself to Valhalla and then back to
>Tokyo."
This isn't quite the same thing. This application of XDM would take the
character directly from New York to Tokyo (but *only* from New York to
Tokyo).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #411
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:15 PM