Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 423
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 11:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #423
champ-l-digest Wednesday, June 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 423
In this issue:
Re: 100 pts.
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
RE: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: No Fringe Debate
100 pts.
RE: 100 pts.
RE: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
RE: 100 pts.
Re: 100 pts.
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:43:07 -0400
From: Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com>> way of Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us&>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
[I think this was meant to go to the list - Bill]
It's about the Cosmic Power Pool for 100 points, you name it, you got it!
Of course Precognition would be nice, and massive quantities of luck.
How about something alruistic. 5D6 AID, Area of Effect Radius, x8 Radius,
Healing, Usable By others?!?
- -Rodger
Bill Svitavsky wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 6/23/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
> >A couple of times, people have asked what you would get yourself if some
> >alien or genie gave you 10 or 15 pts. I think this is pretty chincy.
> >
> >The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
> >What do you purchase?
>
> I assume we're talking no Limitations or Power Frameworks. If Limitations &
> Frameworks were allowed, I'd squeeze a whole lot out of that 100 points.
> Otherwise:
>
> 5 +5 INT
> 10 +5 EGO
> 3 +3 PRE
> 2 +5 COM
>
> 25 Life Support (all but Need not eat, sleep, excrete)
> 30 Regeneration 1 BODY per Turn, works Post-Mortem (+2)
> 10 2d6 Telepathy
> 10 1 Overall Level
>
> 5 Buy off Phys. Lim: Nearsighted
- --
Rodger Bright, Senior Network Engineer
Copithorne & Bellows
100 First Street 26th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
[415]-975-2251 Direct, [415]-284-5200 Main
[415]-243-9664 FAX, [888]-519-8546 Pager
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rodger.bright.pager@cbpr.com (Alpha Paging)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:11:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
At 04:21 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Base cost is the cost of the Power without any Modifiers.
>
>Modifiers change how a "stock" power functions, usually by adding a feature
>or removing a capability, occasionally radically changing how it functions
>(ie, Damage Shield).
>
>An "add-on" changes how a Power functions by adding a feature to it.
>
>The conclusion should be obvious :).
It isn't, to me. (I don't even remember which side of this raging
debate you're on, and the above doesn't give me much of a clue.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:14:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
At 12:53 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>>
>>> I don't recall the name of this show, but it's one thing that makes me
>>>hesitate when someone says that a VPP can't be used for Skills (because
>>>that's the only way I can think of to represent what this guy had).
>>
>>The other way would be to use Cramming and Skill Levels (either Overall
>>Levels or Levels bought specifically for 'Crammed' skills).
>>
>>Sadly, people object to that just as strongly as they do against skills in
>>VPP's. And for the same reason. Technically against the rules.
>>
>><sigh> All of my best ideas are illegal, both in Hero and reality...
>
>I don't object so much because it's against the rules as I do because if
>allowed it's an appalling tempting thing to do for skills you rarely use,
>and almost never need by suprise. At that point you could well see the vast
>majority of people who want polymath characters trying to come up with a
>justification for taking it because it's so much more economic than buying
>the skills individually.
Well, one wouldn't have a Cosmic VPP for Skills; that would be hideously
abusive. One would have a number of Limitations on it to make its use at
least reasonably challenging. (Focus, Extra Time, and Limited Power: Must
Have Access to Computerized Skills Database, are three that come right to
mind.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:24:59 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
One way to represent this and stay legal is to buy
very broad, general skills, such as "Science" or "Mechanics"
and then buy Overall skill levels.
Normally, a broad, general skill such as Science means
that the character has only a general knowledge, but
over a wide array of specific topics. Combine this with
overall levels, and the character can now be quite skilled
in a variety of areas, but only a few (or one) at a time,
just as with the VPP idea.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
>>I don't object so much because it's against the rules as I do because if
>>allowed it's an appalling tempting thing to do for skills you rarely use,
>>and almost never need by suprise. At that point you could well see the vast
>>majority of people who want polymath characters trying to come up with a
>>justification for taking it because it's so much more economic than buying
>>the skills individually.
>
> Well, one wouldn't have a Cosmic VPP for Skills; that would be hideously
>abusive. One would have a number of Limitations on it to make its use at
>least reasonably challenging. (Focus, Extra Time, and Limited Power: Must
>Have Access to Computerized Skills Database, are three that come right to
>mind.)
I don't think that would much slow people down; note I'm refering to skills
you don't use constantly there. Who buys a KS that they won't use often
when they can effectively by a hundred of them this way?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:41:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
From: Scott C. Nolan [SMTP:nolan@erols.com]
>
>One way to represent this and stay legal is to buy
>very broad, general skills, such as "Science" or "Mechanics"
>and then buy Overall skill levels.
>
>Normally, a broad, general skill such as Science means
>that the character has only a general knowledge, but
>over a wide array of specific topics. Combine this with
>overall levels, and the character can now be quite skilled
>in a variety of areas, but only a few (or one) at a time,
>just as with the VPP idea.
>
Not a bad solution, and one I have tried before. It doesn't, however,
cover any skills except PS, Sci, Lang, and KS skills. Skills like
Stealth would not work.
Of course, that may be its greatest strength.:)
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:10:00 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
> 30" flight, no restrictions (60)
Sure, but you would be better off with 7" flight and 1/2 END Cost (reducing
it to 0 END), No Turn Mode (+1/4) for 10 points
then oh, 8 NC doublings (total speed now 7168" or for a 2 speed person
about 5900 MPH) and then LS: breathe at this immense speed and vs cold for
8 more points, and 2 points on KS: Flight paths. Probably be a good idea
to buy navigation at a rather high amount too, at that speed you can loop
the globe in about 4 hours.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:11:43 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
>>>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
>>>What do you purchase?
>>
>>100 Presence and terrify everyone into believing I am the God Emperor
>
>Unfortunately, everything beyond PRE+30 is optional or house rules. At
>PRE +30, you only get them to hesitate and consider what you say deeply.
Where does it say that?
>And if you were so impressive that they couldn't get up the guts to do
>it, I'd use mortars from the other side of the hill.:)
Actually at that immense a level of PRE I would suspect that the very idea
of angering that someone would reduce me to a peeing foetal shivering wreck.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:12:47 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
>>15 Wealth (Filthy Rich)
>>83 40d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 1 Charge/Day.
>> 2 +4 COM
>>
>> Would I need anything else? ;-]
>
>_ABSOLUTELY_.
>
>Consider the possibilities here.
>
>Turn on Mind Control: "Woman, have sex with me."
>
>Suddenly, you discover that your house is on fire. And when you attempt
>to escape, she attacks and rapes you, because you don't have the ability
>to reverse the Mind Control. You both burn to death.
Why would you not be able to give her a new command?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:12:50 PDT
From: Reverend Spith <cptspith@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
>>A couple of times, people have asked what you would get yourself if some
>>alien or genie gave you 10 or 15 pts. I think this is pretty chincy.
>
>>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
>>What do you purchase?
>
> 30" flight, no restrictions (60)
> Invisibility (basic) (20)
> Some extra COM and PRE and a new car.
OOh, ooh, let's change that a bit; reduce flight to 15", and add
Universal Translator at +5 to roll. An invisible, flying linguist; that'll
do me....
- -Reverend Spith
"I would swallow my pride, I would choke on the rind
But the lack thereof would leave me empty inside
I would swallow my doubt, turn it inside-out,
Find nothin' but faith in nothing'.
Wanna put my tender heart in a blender
Wanna spin 'round to a beautiful oblivion
Rendezvous, then I'm through with you."
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:22:42 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
I'd go with:
30 Full Life Support
15 3d6 Luck
20 1 Body Regeneration, Post Mortem
4 4d6 Healing, Extra Time: 1 Hour, Constant Concentration, 0 DCV
20 Universal Translator 11-
2 +4 Comeliness (Why not?!)
9 x16 FTL, OAF (my starship)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:55:26 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
At 07:35 AM 6/23/1999 -0400, John P Weatherman wrote:
>Consider the following Power:
>
>Invisibility, No Fringe +10, No END Cost (+1/2), Concentration (-1/4)
>
>If No Fringe is an Advantage the +10 is not part of the base cost, so
>the cost calculation becomes:
>
>((20x1.5)+10)/1.25=32
>
>On the other hand, if No Fringe is NOT an advantage, but an "Adder",
>the plus 10 is part of the base cost, resulting in:
>
>((20+10)x1.5)/1.25=36
>
>Personally, I think the latter is correct, but YMMV.
Let me be careful how I phrase this: In terms of how the cost is
calculated, I agree that the latter method is correct, and I have always
done it this way.
However, I have been trying -- with almost no success -- to get people to
look at Advantages/Adders/modifiers/whatever *independent* of the method
used to calculate the added cost. Power Advantages, by definition, must
add to the cost or a Power, but I am not convinced that they must do it
only one particular way.
To answer Dr. Nuncheon's question on this same issue, I use the formula --
AC = (BC + "Adders") x (1 + "Advantages")
In the equation above, "Adders" is the term Bob mentioned (apparently
already in official, though not published, use) that describes what I've
called flat-fee Advantages; "Advantages" in the equation refers to those
modifiers that we all agree are Advantages: the ones in "plus times X"
format.
Much of the discussion might have been avoided if the term Adders, or
something like it, had been seriously integrated into the conversation
early on. Because in that case the original question wouldn't really
depend on whether or not No Fringe is a Power Advantage -- and if Hero
Games officially refers to all flat-fee modifiers as Adders or Subtractors
(capitalized, reserved term) I would immediately stop trying to call them
Advantages.
The answer to the No Fringe question would then be: Except for pricing,
are Adders treated like Advantages (must they be used at all times, e.g.)?
The answer to that question couldn't realistically be 'Yes', as Dr.
Nuncheon has pointed out with the add-on for Tunneling. The answer could
be 'No', but I think 'Under certain specific circumstances' should be the
correct answer. Then, those circumstances would need to be simply and
clearly defined.
I think that's pretty much what Rat has been addressing, and what I should
have concentrated on instead of wandering afield into a semantics debate.
But, y'know, it's hard for us rules lawyers to resist a semantics debate...
;)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:03:34 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
At 07:54 AM 6/23/1999 -0500, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
>> Oops. You're right, of course. The ability to fill in the tunnel cannot
>> be considered an Advantage. (This is what happens when I let myself get
>> distracted from the original point of the discussion; I should have
>> remained focused on No Fringe.)
>
>So, Tunnelling is a sole exception to this 'Advantage' policy?
Doubtful, but neither would I expect Invisibility to be the lone example
that would be covered. See the last part of my reply to John P Weatherman
for more on this.
>> Not to be obtuse, but anything that adds to the Base Cost also adds to the
>> Active Cost, whether or not any [other] Advantages are applied:
>
>So anything that adds to the Active Cost is an advantage? If you go that
>route, then *everything* is an Advantage, because buying anything with a
>Base Cost raises the Active Cost as well. That is clearly not the case.
Again, I've been trying to largely divorce cost from the determination of
Advantage or not-Advantage, but people seem determined to focus on that.
For the Nth time, I've been saying it should be an Advantage, or not, based
on what it does for the Power and whether or not it fits the Glossary
defintion. So, is everything that adds to the Active Cost an Advantage?
No. Not everything that adds to the AC *modifies* the Power in a way other
than simple increase. A Power must be made to do more, not just more of
the same thing. Its scope or utility must be somehow expanded. A modifier
that does not do that cannot be considered an Advantage.
>Active Cost = Base Cost x (1 + Advantages)
>
>Clearly we're not meant to multiply base cost by 11 for the 'no fringe'
>power...and the formula isn't AC = BC x (1 + Advantages) + Flat Fee
>Advantages...so that at least implies it's not an Advantage, and that it
>adds to Base Cost, and is therefore 'switchable'.
Again, see my reply to John Weatherman on this.
Damon
------------------------------
Date:
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
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* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999
| It isn't, to me. (I don't even remember which side of this raging
| debate you're on, and the above doesn't give me much of a clue.)
Add-ons to a Power modify how that Power works. That makes them Power
Modifiers of a sort. Thus, they change the active cost of a power, the
base cost.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date:
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
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* shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) on Wed, 23 Jun 1999
| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:53:38 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
>
>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using it,
the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why would
buying NCM cost more END??
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:55:21 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>To answer Dr. Nuncheon's question on this same issue, I use the formula --
>
> AC = (BC + "Adders") x (1 + "Advantages")
>In the equation above, "Adders" is the term Bob mentioned (apparently
>already in official, though not published, use) that describes what I've
>called flat-fee Advantages; "Advantages" in the equation refers to those
>modifiers that we all agree are Advantages: the ones in "plus times X"
>format.
The problem is that in the "Power Advantages" section that I quoted the
ONLY way Advantages are used is with this formula. I quoted it clearly,
but saw no response to that. I thought maybe you missed it?
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:56:05 EDT
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
In a message dated 99-06-23 13:49:36 EDT, dnasset@cns.eds.com writes:
> A couple of times, people have asked what you would get yourself if some
> alien or genie gave you 10 or 15 pts. I think this is pretty chincy.
>
> The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
> What do you purchase?
3 Immunity to Aging
3 Immunity to Disease
10 Wealth
24 120 pt Follower "the right woman for me"
10 Regeneration, 1 BODY/Turn
30 Extra-dimensional movement, to any dimension, 2x mass (45 active),
Full Phase Extra Time (-1/2)
10 Buy off Phys Lim: Overweight
10 +1 Overall Level
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:37:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
>>
>>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
>
>Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
>surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using it,
>the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
>multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why would
>buying NCM cost more END??
Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are applied
last, period.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuk Goodin <cgoodin@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
After buying Life Support (to all, 30pts) and 9 PD 3 ED Armor (18 pts),
+10 STR (10 pts) and +4 DEX (12pts), I'd probably be about120 pts or so.
Then I'd buy Duplication (which IIRC would be about 24 pts? I don't have
my book with me). I'd spend 5 more points on Mind Link (only with self),
and the last point on, oh, FAM with PS: Guitar (8-). That way, one me
could go to work and the other me could spend time with my family. (The
other stuff is just so I don't get hurt and can move heavy stuff...maybe
Danger Sense would be better, but 9 rPD is probably enough to protect me
from any threat I'm likely to encounter).
Actually, maybe I would just buy a big Healing Aid instead of Duplication.
chuk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:10:19 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>>>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
>>>
>>>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
>>
>>Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
>>surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using it,
>>the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
>>multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why would
>>buying NCM cost more END??
>
>Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are applied
>last, period.
Yeah I know but don't you think there should be exceptions to this? Some
things don't get certain advantages, I know it would get kind of Byzantine
but it would make more sense.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jun 1999 21:10:28 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
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* Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999
| >Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
| Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage!
Adders are Power Modifiers *like* Advantages, just of a different sort.
| horrors! Heromaker is surprisingly accurate in its calculations,
Yeah, well... :)
| I learned things from using it, the only time it gets confused in my
| opinion is with Flight Non Combat multiples. Since non combat uses the
| same END as normal flight, why would buying NCM cost more END??
A bug in the program, I suspect.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:12:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: 100 pts.
Actually, I asked a number of my friends what three powers they
would want.
Mine were:
Serial Immortality
Shape Shifting
and
Biological Manipulation
...all of which are not easily simulated in HERO.
Serial Immortality is the ability to die, and then "ressurect" in
a new body, which could be miles away. I picked this instead of your
"standard Immortality" because a) If you don't age and b) you are very
hard to kill: if you fall in a volcano, wear cement shoes to the bottom of
the ocean, or otherwise go someone not-nice, you'll be there for eternity,
which isn't plesant.
Shape Shifting is not the typical "take any form" shape shifting.
It's the ability to change the body. That means additional statistics if
I take an athlelete's build, or exceptioanl looks, or whatever. I believe
I said I'd only want to take humanoid forms...
Biological Manipulation is very nasty. I can cure illnesses, but
I can also stearlize humans and animals. I believe I wanted this on a
global scale.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:32:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
From: Christopher Taylor [SMTP:ctaylor@viser.net]
>>>>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
>>>>What do you purchase?
>>>
>>>100 Presence and terrify everyone into believing I am the God Emperor
>>
>>Unfortunately, everything beyond PRE+30 is optional or house rules. At
>>PRE +30, you only get them to hesitate and consider what you say deeply.
>
>Where does it say that?
Sorry, I didn't have the book, and started quoting an earlier edition.
However, the only guaranteed effect of a PRE+30 attack is cowing people.
Cowed people are not always completely harmless. Turn your back, and they
may shoot you. And it would only take one. Nor will they protect you well;
cowed people, even obedient ones, make rotten bodyguards.
>>And if you were so impressive that they couldn't get up the guts to do
>>it, I'd use mortars from the other side of the hill.:)
>
>Actually at that immense a level of PRE I would suspect that the very idea
>of angering that someone would reduce me to a peeing foetal shivering
wreck.
First they have to see you. There are bound to be some people who never get
a good look at you who will want to kill you.
You use this power in this fashion. The president orders everyone to
surrender. The army, seeing you, surrenders as ordered. They didn't think to
have the army stay on the other side of the hill where they can't see you,
so there aren't any people with mortars out of sight.
In the meantime, far away, where they can't see you, the Vice President
announces that the President is incapacitated, and that he is now assuming
command. He then orders people who can't see you to fire heavy weapons at
you from 20 miles away, drop bombs on you from 35,000 feet, and, if
necessary, nuke you by cruise missiles from 500 miles away.
In the event that you make your announcement from a television, and cow
virtually the entire country, then, most likely, some admiral on a
battleship, who didn't view the transmission, defies orders and destroys you
anyway.
Certainly, eventually _someone_ will manage to avoid getting a good look at
you long enough to stop being cowed and kill you with some form of distance
attack or booby trap.
Besides, with my method, they all think it is a good idea to give me all
power. They will make better servants, and will actively assist me. Your
people will obey because of fear, and someday someone won't be afraid
enough. All it would take is one geezer with a 30 PRE, a handgun, and a bad
roll on your Presence attack.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:36:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
From: Christopher Taylor [SMTP:ctaylor@viser.net]
>>>15 Wealth (Filthy Rich)
>>>83 40d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 1 Charge/Day.
>>> 2 +4 COM
>>>
>>> Would I need anything else? ;-]
>>
>>_ABSOLUTELY_.
>>
>>Consider the possibilities here.
>>
>>Turn on Mind Control: "Woman, have sex with me."
>>
>>Suddenly, you discover that your house is on fire. And when you attempt
>>to escape, she attacks and rapes you, because you don't have the ability
>>to reverse the Mind Control. You both burn to death.
>
>Why would you not be able to give her a new command?
He can. All he has to do is wait until tomorrow, since he has 1
charge/day.:)
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:58:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
I was wondering how many people realized just how badly they might have
screwed this one up, particularly if the gift of the God of People Who Have
No Life is less than user friendly.
For example, consider the people who asked for COM and STR.
Imagine a man, seriously overweight and not terribly attractive. He asks for
+10 COM and +10 STR.
His wife doesn't recognize him. Neither do his friends, his co-workers, or
his own mother. Even if he has his fingerprints on file, the people closest
to him may never accept him as himself. And if he doesn't have fingerprints
on file, he could find himself standing trial for his own murder.:)
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
In a message dated 99-06-23 13:49:36 EDT, dnasset@cns.eds.com writes:
> A couple of times, people have asked what you would get yourself if some
> alien or genie gave you 10 or 15 pts. I think this is pretty chincy.
>
> The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
> What do you purchase?
Hmmm, Here's a slant no one else has looked at:
30 Filthy rich, fully invisible power effects.
I have the funds, but no one knows I have them or where I spend them.
Keeps the IRS and other money grubbers away.
62 Cosmic VPP, up to 25 points
a bit limiting, but when compared to nothing, who am I to complain?
5 +5 Int
Make sure I don't do something really stupid.
3 LS: immune to disease
This doesn't make me an immortal, but I can always do the transform UBO trick
and transform myself and my chosen ones from "old and decrepit" to "young
and fresh", kind of like Dr. Who.
- --
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>>>>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
>>>
>>>Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
>>>surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using it,
>>>the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
>>>multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why would
>>>buying NCM cost more END??
>>
>>Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are applied
>>last, period.
>
>Yeah I know but don't you think there should be exceptions to this? Some
>things don't get certain advantages, I know it would get kind of Byzantine
>but it would make more sense.
I don't think it's even remotely worth the trouble, since you'd have to go
through and pay special attention to every one of the add-ons we've been
talking about. I just consider it part of the price of advantages, and
forget it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:43:01 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
At 03:32 PM 6/23/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>First they have to see you. There are bound to be some people who never get
>a good look at you who will want to kill you.
No they only have to hear you. PRE is not line of sight. They only have
to be aware of your statements. PRE attacks can be made over a bullhorn
afterall. (We have you surrounded, come out with your hands up.)
Besides, only by +50 PRE and buy in AoE Radius. Or maybe buy 66 Explosion.
:-)
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:52:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
At 03:12 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>>15 Wealth (Filthy Rich)
>>>83 40d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 1 Charge/Day.
>>> 2 +4 COM
>>>
>>> Would I need anything else? ;-]
>>
>>_ABSOLUTELY_.
>>
>>Consider the possibilities here.
>>
>>Turn on Mind Control: "Woman, have sex with me."
>>
>>Suddenly, you discover that your house is on fire. And when you attempt
>>to escape, she attacks and rapes you, because you don't have the ability
>>to reverse the Mind Control. You both burn to death.
>
>Why would you not be able to give her a new command?
Not with just 1 charge.
On the other hand, 40d6 is much more than I'd ever need; maybe just 4
charges, on 27d6, and take only +2 to my COM.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:28:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
At 02:11 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
>>>I don't object so much because it's against the rules as I do because if
>>>allowed it's an appalling tempting thing to do for skills you rarely use,
>>>and almost never need by suprise. At that point you could well see the
vast
>>>majority of people who want polymath characters trying to come up with a
>>>justification for taking it because it's so much more economic than buying
>>>the skills individually.
>>
>> Well, one wouldn't have a Cosmic VPP for Skills; that would be hideously
>>abusive. One would have a number of Limitations on it to make its use at
>>least reasonably challenging. (Focus, Extra Time, and Limited Power: Must
>>Have Access to Computerized Skills Database, are three that come right to
>>mind.)
>
>I don't think that would much slow people down; note I'm refering to skills
>you don't use constantly there. Who buys a KS that they won't use often
>when they can effectively by a hundred of them this way?
That KS doesn't help much when you need the information *now*, and you
need to "download" it into your brain without anyone the wiser....
Besides, who needs gobs of narrowly specific KSes when one can just get
a more general one with a high Roll? Why get Entomology 11-, Floral Botany
11-, and Biochemistry 11- separately if Biological Sciences 15- will work
at -4 to give you the same result as those, and a number of other Sciences
as well? The same principle holds there, even if to a lesser extent.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:10:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
>At 02:11 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>>>I don't object so much because it's against the rules as I do because if
>>>>allowed it's an appalling tempting thing to do for skills you rarely use,
>>>>and almost never need by suprise. At that point you could well see the
>vast
>>>>majority of people who want polymath characters trying to come up with a
>>>>justification for taking it because it's so much more economic than buying
>>>>the skills individually.
>>>
>>> Well, one wouldn't have a Cosmic VPP for Skills; that would be hideously
>>>abusive. One would have a number of Limitations on it to make its use at
>>>least reasonably challenging. (Focus, Extra Time, and Limited Power: Must
>>>Have Access to Computerized Skills Database, are three that come right to
>>>mind.)
>>
>>I don't think that would much slow people down; note I'm refering to skills
>>you don't use constantly there. Who buys a KS that they won't use often
>>when they can effectively by a hundred of them this way?
>
> That KS doesn't help much when you need the information *now*, and you
>need to "download" it into your brain without anyone the wiser....
But that's the point; rarely does one really need many skills completely on
the fly. Instead, you need them during research and other downtime
processes that give you plenty of time to swap out.
> Besides, who needs gobs of narrowly specific KSes when one can just get
>a more general one with a high Roll? Why get Entomology 11-, Floral Botany
>11-, and Biochemistry 11- separately if Biological Sciences 15- will work
>at -4 to give you the same result as those, and a number of other Sciences
>as well? The same principle holds there, even if to a lesser extent.
There at least you need a relationship of some kind, or the skills is so
broad it has no depth for anything. I'll let someone take KS: General
Knowledge, for example; but unless they're using it for the most general
things, the skill penelties are hideous and the knowledge accrued minor. By
the time you get that one so it's useful, you can easily have bought the
equivlenet of 10-15 other skills. Doing the same thing with a VPP could
cost as little as 6 points, because you can define the skill pulled out of
it very narrowly if needed.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:14:03 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
>What do you purchase?
I don't have my book handy, so I can't price this out, but one power I'd
grab is 6-8 dice of Telepathy that affects cats. It would be _so_ nice
to figure out what my cat is fussing about without getting poked by a
claw. (If she was a younger cat I'd just get Mind Link, but as it is I
would probably have to rebuy the power in a few years ....)
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:47:34 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
At 05:55 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>To answer Dr. Nuncheon's question on this same issue, I use the formula --
>>
>> AC = (BC + "Adders") x (1 + "Advantages")
>
>>In the equation above, "Adders" is the term Bob mentioned (apparently
>>already in official, though not published, use) that describes what I've
>>called flat-fee Advantages; "Advantages" in the equation refers to those
>>modifiers that we all agree are Advantages: the ones in "plus times X"
>>format.
>
>The problem is that in the "Power Advantages" section that I quoted the
>ONLY way Advantages are used is with this formula. I quoted it clearly,
>but saw no response to that. I thought maybe you missed it?
If you mean this -- "When listed on a character sheet, Power Advantages are
listed with a plus (+). Power Limitations are listed with a minus (-)." --
it doesn't in any way conflict with the equation above; the equation is
mathematically identical to what you and everyone on your side of this
discussion has been saying about how to figure cost.
Whatever you or anyone else imagined, we have at no time been in
disagreement as to how No Fringe would affect the Active Cost of
Invisibilty, or how any other "Adder" would affect the Active Cost of any
given base Power. What we've been unable to agree on is whether the cost
has any relevance to whether or not a modifier can, or should be,
characterized as an Advantage (Advantage being defined without any
reference to cost, other than the requirement that it increase the cost of
a Power.)
In the absence of any other official term for such a modifier, I have spent
a couple of days now referring to No Fringe, and other similar modifiers
[not including the ability to fill in a tunnel behind oneself, or any other
modifier clearly marked as optional with every use] as de facto Advantages,
due to their function.
As I said earlier, if Adder or some other descriptive term is going to
become HR5 standard, I will adopt it immediately. I will continue to
maintain, afterward, that the No Fringe Adder cannot be turned on and off
at will, and that if you want to be able to use Invisibility both ways, you
need to buy the Power twice.
Or, as a house rule, use the adaptation I suggested on Variable Advantage
(we can now call that Variable Adder, I guess), which would allow the
Invisible character to use +10 points to be Invisible to the Sight Sense
Group, *or* +10 points to have No Fringe vs. Normal Sight, at a surcharge
of +20 points for the Variable Adder option itself. The surcharge would be
+10 points if you wanted to be able to swap out a pair of +5 Adders; +40 if
you wanted to be able to exchange two +20 Adders (or a single +20 for two
+10's), etc.
"How many points to swap a puff adder for a swamp adder?" SMACK!
Damon
======================
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs it's
just possible you haven't grasped the situation. -- Jean Kerr
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #423
*****************************
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:17 PM