Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 424
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 10:43 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #424
champ-l-digest Thursday, June 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 424
In this issue:
Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: No Fringe Debate
Heromaker and Flight NCMs
Re: No Fringe Debate
RE: 100 pts.
RE: 100 pts.
Re: No Fringe Debate
Re: Heromaker and Flight NCMs
Re: 100 pts.
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: 100 pts.
Re: Heromaker and Flight NCMs
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
VEHICLE: Gigant
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 17:21:00 PDT
From: "Richard O'Marro" <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
Subject: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
- ----------
> >At 10:47 AM 6/23/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
> >>A couple of times, people have asked what you would get yourself if
> some
> >>alien or genie gave you 10 or 15 pts. I think this is pretty chincy.
> >>
> >>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
> >>What do you purchase?
> >
> >
> >I assume we're talking no Limitations or Power Frameworks. If
> Limitations &
> >Frameworks were allowed, I'd squeeze a whole lot out of that 100
> points.
>
> No restrictions, necessarily, save that you have to buy things that you=
,
> as a GM, would freely allow into your campaign, and no rules violations
> (like LS in an Elemental Control).
Ok, maybe there's a rule I didn't know of, but I never knew you COULDN'T=
have Life Support in an Elemental control as long as it fit the point =
rules and the EC itself. For example I have a character who's body is com=
pletely made of stone. He has an EC: Stone Body, in which is a High point=
Life Support (Doesn't breathe, Doesn't eat or sleep, Immune to disease,=
immune to aging, Stong vaccum/high pressure resistance, cold and heat =
resistances, radiation resistance) And since these are things that come =
about because he is no longer an Organic being, I have found no problem =
with people letting hte LS be in his EC. Is this against the rules and =
I didn't even know it?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:22:09 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> According to the guys at Hero Games, the base cost of Invisibility is the
> base 20 point cost for Invisibility. "No Fringe" is not part of the base
> cost
Doesn't sound like something the guys at Hero Games would say. If it was
then according to the formula in the Power Advantages section you wouldn't
have to count the cost of the "No Fringe" effect when applying advantages.
That would make 20 points of Invisibility (20 pts.) plus No Fringe (10 pts.)
plus No Endurance (+1/2) only add up to 40 pts instead of the 45 pts that it
is.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:25:31 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
> >>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
> >>
> >>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
> >
> >Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
> >surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using
it,
> >the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
> >multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why
would
> >buying NCM cost more END??
>
> Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are applied
> last, period.
I don't understand. What does when you apply Advantages have to do with the
END use of NCM?
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
>To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 7:37 PM
>Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>
>
>> >>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
>> >>
>> >>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
>> >
>> >Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
>> >surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using
>it,
>> >the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
>> >multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why
>would
>> >buying NCM cost more END??
>>
>> Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are applied
>> last, period.
>
>I don't understand. What does when you apply Advantages have to do with the
>END use of NCM?
It doesn't. It does have to do with what the Advantage cost applies
to...which to the best of my knowledge is the total non-Advantaged part of
the power. Since the NCM increase the utility of the rest of the power they
are with, and are lumped in as part of the power, I don't see any reason to
exclude them from factoring in the Advantage cost any more than I would any
of the other adder effects than have been mentioned in this thread.
Floating locations and such don't cost END either, but if they're connected
to a teleport that is having it's Endurance bought down, I (and Heromaker)
don't exclude that cost from the cost of the Advantage either.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:07:34 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
From: Richard O'Marro <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
>Ok, maybe there's a rule I didn't know of, but I never knew you COULDN'T
have Life >Support in an Elemental control as long as it fit the point rules
and the EC itself.
Life Support is a Special Power which cannot be put into a Power Framework
without Special GM Permission. If you have your GM's permission it is
perfectly legal, but then again so is anything else.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:23:48 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
To: J. Alan Easley <alaneasley@email.com>
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
> >To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 7:37 PM
> >Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
> >
> >
> >> >>| For what it's worth, it's the way Heromaker calculates it.
> >> >>
> >> >>Yes, "Adders" are factored before Advantages, not after.
> >> >
> >> >Gee but that would mean it's not an advantage! horrors! Heromaker is
> >> >surprisingly accurate in its calculations, I learned things from using
> >it,
> >> >the only time it gets confused in my opinion is with Flight Non Combat
> >> >multiples. Since non combat uses the same END as normal flight, why
> >would
> >> >buying NCM cost more END??
> >>
> >> Same reason it does with every other NCM, because Advantages are
applied
> >> last, period.
> >
> >I don't understand. What does when you apply Advantages have to do with
the
> >END use of NCM?
>
> It doesn't. It does have to do with what the Advantage cost applies
> to...which to the best of my knowledge is the total non-Advantaged part of
> the power. Since the NCM increase the utility of the rest of the power
they
> are with, and are lumped in as part of the power, I don't see any reason
to
> exclude them from factoring in the Advantage cost any more than I would
any
> of the other adder effects than have been mentioned in this thread.
> Floating locations and such don't cost END either, but if they're
connected
> to a teleport that is having it's Endurance bought down, I (and Heromaker)
> don't exclude that cost from the cost of the Advantage either.
True, but that wasn't the problem in Heromaker that was being mentioned.
The problem with Heromaker is that when you buy NCM on Flight the calculated
END cost goes up. Nothing to do with the cost calculations regarding
Advantages was being complained about.
BTW, I love to pick but hate that it offends people, but I have been seeing
this error so much recently that I just have to point it out. "It's" is a
contraction of "it is"or "it has," to make "it" possessive simply add an "s"
to the end forming "its." This unwanted grammar lesson while possibly
highly offensive to the reading public at large has made me feel much
better, thank you.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1999 00:23:45 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999
| Doesn't sound like something the guys at Hero Games would say. If it was
| then according to the formula in the Power Advantages section you wouldn't
| have to count the cost of the "No Fringe" effect when applying advantages.
I said that No Fring is not part of the base cost. I did not say that it
was an advantage.
| That would make 20 points of Invisibility (20 pts.) plus No Fringe (10 pts.)
| plus No Endurance (+1/2) only add up to 40 pts instead of the 45 pts that it
| is.
Umm... huh? I get 45:
20 + 10 = 30, 30 x (1 + 0.5) = 45
Or is this that "new math" think I keep hearing about?
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:34:24 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> I said that No Fring is not part of the base cost. I did not say that it
> was an advantage.
Nor did I say that you did. What I said was that if "No Fringe" weren't
part of the Base Cost then it would not have a place in the formula for
Active Cost which is Base Cost times (Total Advantages +1).
>
> | That would make 20 points of Invisibility (20 pts.) plus No Fringe (10
pts.)
> | plus No Endurance (+1/2) only add up to 40 pts instead of the 45 pts
that it
> | is.
>
> Umm... huh? I get 45:
>
> 20 + 10 = 30, 30 x (1 + 0.5) = 45
>
> Or is this that "new math" think I keep hearing about?
No you are doing the math just fine. The problem is that you are
contradicting yourself. You say that Base cost of Invisibility doesn't
include the 10 pts you have to pay for No Fringe but in your math above you
add it in and use it in place of the variable Base Cost in the Active Cost
formula.
Which of your statements do you really mean? Is No Fringe part of Base Cost
or is it not used in figuring Active Cost? You can't have it both ways.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>True, but that wasn't the problem in Heromaker that was being mentioned.
>The problem with Heromaker is that when you buy NCM on Flight the calculated
>END cost goes up. Nothing to do with the cost calculations regarding
>Advantages was being complained about.
Ah. My apologies. I misunderstood your point.
>
>BTW, I love to pick but hate that it offends people, but I have been seeing
>this error so much recently that I just have to point it out. "It's" is a
>contraction of "it is"or "it has," to make "it" possessive simply add an "s"
>to the end forming "its." This unwanted grammar lesson while possibly
>highly offensive to the reading public at large has made me feel much
>better, thank you.
Feel free. I'm well aware of it; I simply have a writing tic that when I'm
in a hurry I tend to substitute homonym words. I'll substitute their for
there, hear for here, and so on.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Heromaker and Flight NCMs
Interestingly, when I try this on my version, the Endurance cost does _not_
increase. Was someone perhaps refering to Hero Creator instead?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:52:53 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
> Feel free. I'm well aware of it; I simply have a writing tic that when
I'm
> in a hurry I tend to substitute homonym words. I'll substitute their for
> there, hear for here, and so on.
You aren't alone on that one. I get messed on with those and also for some
reason I have caught myself typing "than" when I meant "then."
> Interestingly, when I try this on my version, the Endurance cost does
_not_
increase. Was someone perhaps referring to Hero Creator instead?
I can't help there because I don't use Heromaker. I wasn't the original
complainer. I can't imagine how a fine new program such as Hero Creator
could be glitched though. It must be from an earlier or later version of
Heromaker than the one you use. We need the original poster and you to
specify which version of Heromaker y'all use.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:32:09 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
>>>>>The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100 pts.
>>>>>What do you purchase?
>>>>
>>>>100 Presence and terrify everyone into believing I am the God Emperor
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, everything beyond PRE+30 is optional or house rules. At
>>>PRE +30, you only get them to hesitate and consider what you say deeply.
>>
>>Where does it say that?
>
>Sorry, I didn't have the book, and started quoting an earlier edition.
>
>However, the only guaranteed effect of a PRE+30 attack is cowing people.
>Cowed people are not always completely harmless. Turn your back, and they
>may shoot you. And it would only take one. Nor will they protect you well;
>cowed people, even obedient ones, make rotten bodyguards.
Target is cowed, and may surrender, run away , or faint; target has DCV 0
and will nearly always follow commands. (previous editions included
fainting). As a GM if you totally blitz someone's PRE they will freak out
and run like hell.
>>>And if you were so impressive that they couldn't get up the guts to do
>>>it, I'd use mortars from the other side of the hill.:)
>>
>>Actually at that immense a level of PRE I would suspect that the very idea
>>of angering that someone would reduce me to a peeing foetal shivering
>wreck.
>
>First they have to see you. There are bound to be some people who never get
>a good look at you who will want to kill you.
>
>You use this power in this fashion. The president orders everyone to
>surrender. The army, seeing you, surrenders as ordered. They didn't think to
>have the army stay on the other side of the hill where they can't see you,
>so there aren't any people with mortars out of sight.
>
> In the meantime, far away, where they can't see you, the Vice President
>announces that the President is incapacitated, and that he is now assuming
>command. He then orders people who can't see you to fire heavy weapons at
>you from 20 miles away, drop bombs on you from 35,000 feet, and, if
>necessary, nuke you by cruise missiles from 500 miles away.
>
>In the event that you make your announcement from a television, and cow
>virtually the entire country, then, most likely, some admiral on a
>battleship, who didn't view the transmission, defies orders and destroys you
>anyway.
>
>Certainly, eventually _someone_ will manage to avoid getting a good look at
>you long enough to stop being cowed and kill you with some form of distance
>attack or booby trap.
>
>Besides, with my method, they all think it is a good idea to give me all
>power. They will make better servants, and will actively assist me. Your
>people will obey because of fear, and someday someone won't be afraid
>enough. All it would take is one geezer with a 30 PRE, a handgun, and a bad
>roll on your Presence attack.
>
>Filksinger
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:34:14 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
>>>>15 Wealth (Filthy Rich)
>>>>83 40d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 1 Charge/Day.
>>>> 2 +4 COM
>>>>
>>>> Would I need anything else? ;-]
>>>
>>>_ABSOLUTELY_.
>>>
>>>Consider the possibilities here.
>>>
>>>Turn on Mind Control: "Woman, have sex with me."
>>>
>>>Suddenly, you discover that your house is on fire. And when you attempt
>>>to escape, she attacks and rapes you, because you don't have the ability
>>>to reverse the Mind Control. You both burn to death.
>>
>>Why would you not be able to give her a new command?
>
>He can. All he has to do is wait until tomorrow, since he has 1
>charge/day.:)
Yeah well that is an error in his calculations, should give himself like 3,
4 charges
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:43:48 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate
>>The problem is that in the "Power Advantages" section that I quoted the
>>ONLY way Advantages are used is with this formula. I quoted it clearly,
>>but saw no response to that. I thought maybe you missed it?
>
>If you mean this -- "When listed on a character sheet, Power Advantages are
>listed with a plus (+). Power Limitations are listed with a minus (-)." --
>it doesn't in any way conflict with the equation above; the equation is
>mathematically identical to what you and everyone on your side of this
>discussion has been saying about how to figure cost.
OK I guess you didn't see it. The quote was this:
"Each Power Advantage has a multiplier that is used to figure the Active
cost of the Power (with the Advantage). The Active Cost is an
approximation of how powerful the Power actually is. The Active cost of a
Power with Power Advantages is found with the following formula: Active
Cost = Base Cost x (1+Advantages)"
Now... based on your contention, if No Fringe is an advantage, or other
adders, then you would take that +10 or whatever the cost is that you say
is a cost with a + in front and add it to the other advantages. So No
Fringe (+10 Points) would be used in this formula (remember it says EACH
POWER ADVANTAGE) in what way? would I add it to 0 END Cost, Persistent of
+1 advantage for a +11 advantage??
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:48:01 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Heromaker and Flight NCMs
> Interestingly, when I try this on my version, the Endurance cost does _not_
>increase. Was someone perhaps refering to Hero Creator instead?
That was me, and I am not sure, I can check again, but it did before...
perhaps the newest version doesn't. It certainly SHOULDN'T increase the
END cost, since it costs no END anyway
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:15:59 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
From: Scott C. Nolan <nolan@erols.com>
> I'd go with:
>
> 30 Full Life Support
> 15 3d6 Luck
> 20 1 Body Regeneration, Post Mortem
> 4 4d6 Healing, Extra Time: 1 Hour, Constant Concentration, 0 DCV
> 20 Universal Translator 11-
> 2 +4 Comeliness (Why not?!)
>
> 9 x16 FTL, OAF (my starship)
You have a portable starship? Wow.
Frankly, I'd rather spend the points on a vehicle, and let that be my
starship. But whatever turns you on.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:22:49 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
From: Richard O'Marro <hbcraft@impulsedata.net>
<snip>
>>>>Ok, maybe there's a rule I didn't know of, but I never knew you
COULDN'T have Life Support in an Elemental control as long as it fit
the point rules and the EC itself. For example I have a character
who's body is completely made of stone. He has an EC: Stone Body, in
which is a High point Life Support (Doesn't breathe, Doesn't eat or
sleep, Immune to disease, immune to aging, Stong vaccum/high pressure
resistance, cold and heat resistances, radiation resistance) And since
these are things that come about because he is no longer an Organic
being, I have found no problem with people letting hte LS be in his
EC. Is this against the rules and I didn't even know it?
>>>>
The rules say no Special Powers in a Framework without GM permission.
So it can be allowed, but you need special permission. Though with LS,
I'll almost always allow it.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:21:15 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@deskmail.com>
Subject: Re: 100 pts.
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
> >The God of People Who Need to Get a Life has just given you 100
pts.
> >What do you purchase?
>
> I don't have my book handy, so I can't price this out, but one power
I'd
> grab is 6-8 dice of Telepathy that affects cats. It would be _so_
nice
> to figure out what my cat is fussing about without getting poked by
a
> claw. (If she was a younger cat I'd just get Mind Link, but as it
is I
> would probably have to rebuy the power in a few years ....)
>
A Mind Link that can be used with anyone is cheaper than 6-8 dice of
Telepathy. Question is, will your cat accept it willingly?
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:23:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Heromaker and Flight NCMs
>> Interestingly, when I try this on my version, the Endurance cost does _not_
>>increase. Was someone perhaps refering to Hero Creator instead?
>
>That was me, and I am not sure, I can check again, but it did before...
>perhaps the newest version doesn't. It certainly SHOULDN'T increase the
>END cost, since it costs no END anyway
Apparently it must have gone away as of version 2.5, because mine doesn't
display the problem.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:07:31 -0400
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
>Life Support is a Special Power which cannot be put into a Power Framework
>without Special GM Permission. If you have your GM's permission it is
>perfectly legal, but then again so is anything else.
>
Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place it
in a Power Framework.
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:15:45 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
From: dflacks <dflacks@ican.net>
> Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
> Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place
it
> in a Power Framework.
The errata and the last edition of the BBB, Champions Deluxe, changes it to
a Special Power.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:19:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, dflacks wrote:
> Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
> Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place it
> in a Power Framework.
Hmm...how odd.
p56: Life Support listed under Standard Powers
p57: Life Support listed as Special Power in table
p75: Life Support is Standard power in description
This is from Champions Deluxe version of the BBB, BTW.
I'm guessing the table is the typo since it's* contradicted twice.
BUT!
Looking in my Hero System 4th Ed Rulebook, it's listed as a Special Power
all 3 places.
This question forwarded to herogames@aol.com for an answer, I hope. It
looks like someone decided to make LS a Standard Power and just missed
changing one of the places...
J
* Note correct usage! ;)
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:16:34 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
At 10:43 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>OK I guess you didn't see it. The quote was this:
>
>"Each Power Advantage has a multiplier that is used to figure the Active
>cost of the Power (with the Advantage). The Active Cost is an
>approximation of how powerful the Power actually is. The Active cost of a
>Power with Power Advantages is found with the following formula: Active
>Cost = Base Cost x (1+Advantages)"
I do not wish to try an support an argument by claiming that any part of
the above quote is wrong, but it is poorly worded. The problem with the
above explanation (Hero's problem, not yours) is that the term 'Base Cost'
[capitalized, implying a reserved term] is not defined. Anywhere. Not in
the section on Power Modifiers, not in the Glossary, and it has no listing
in the Index.
The rule of common sense *should* dictate that, in the absence of an
official definition, the meaning in common usage be adopted. Base means
primary; it's a starting point or a foundation. So "Base Cost" should mean
the initial cost of the base Power before any modifiers are applied, yes?
No Fringe is a modifier.
So, No Fringe should not be considered part of the "Base Cost". While this
makes the placement of Adders in the above formula ambiguous, the only
thing that makes sense mathematically is to adjust the equation to read:
Active Cost = (Base Cost+Adders) x (1+Advantages)
>Now... based on your contention, if No Fringe is an advantage, or other
>adders, then you would take that +10 or whatever the cost is that you say
>is a cost with a + in front and add it to the other advantages. So No
>Fringe (+10 Points) would be used in this formula (remember it says EACH
>POWER ADVANTAGE) in what way? would I add it to 0 END Cost, Persistent of
>+1 advantage for a +11 advantage??
I've explained this a couple of times now, but perhaps you'd written the
above before you read what I wrote yesterday. Hopefully te above will
clear up the fact that I do not calculate a +11 Advantage based on No
Fringe. And while I'm willing to continue this discussion as long as
everyone's being reasonable, I am getting really, really tired of repeating
myself on this whole cost calculation issue, especially since we all get
the exact same Real Cost result whatever terminology we're using.
I propose we adopt some new terms:
Power Advantage - No change. These are exactly what you and your
supporters say they are, and work exactly like you say they do.
Power Adder - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
Cost before Advantages are applied. Must modify the Power and, like
Advantages, cannot be switched on and off. EX: No Fringe.
Power Option - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
Cost before Advantages are applied. Do not modify the Power beyond simply
increasing it, or some other minor effect. Unlike Advantages and Adders,
can be switched on and off. EX: The option to fill in a tunnel behind
oneself.
Now, just segregate all those add-ons within the power writeups into Adders
and Options and we'll be home free.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:22:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, J. Alan Easley wrote:
> > Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
> > Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place
> it
> > in a Power Framework.
>
> The errata and the last edition of the BBB, Champions Deluxe, changes it to
> a Special Power.
Hmm...my Champs Deluxe doesn't. (It's 4.2 Edition)
Where the heck is the errata stored? Is it online somewhere?
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:32:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
> At 10:43 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> I propose we adopt some new terms:
>
> Power Advantage - No change. These are exactly what you and your
> supporters say they are, and work exactly like you say they do.
>
> Power Adder - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
> Cost before Advantages are applied. Must modify the Power and, like
> Advantages, cannot be switched on and off. EX: No Fringe.
>
> Power Option - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
> Cost before Advantages are applied. Do not modify the Power beyond simply
> increasing it, or some other minor effect. Unlike Advantages and Adders,
> can be switched on and off. EX: The option to fill in a tunnel behind
> oneself.
>
> Now, just segregate all those add-ons within the power writeups into Adders
> and Options and we'll be home free.
Why do we need to separate them? Why not assume they are all 'Power
Options' and let them all be switchable on/off? If someone, for whatever
bizarre reason, wants to turn on their Fringe Effect, let them! I can't
honestly see it as being abusive. "What? You don't want to use your full
power? YOU MUNCHKIN!"
That way also opens things up to legally do a lot more interesting things.
Like, No Fringe with Extra END. Pay the normal END, you have a
Fringe...but if you push yourself, you're completely invisible. Or maybe
the No Fringe has the limitation 'only when not moving'.
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 06:32:01 -0700
From: "Raven" <raven@neteze.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
I just checked in Creation Workshop (ver 1.5) and life support is listed as
a standard power there. Has anyone heard from Hero games about it yet?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:40:40 EDT
From: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
Subject: VEHICLE: Gigant
A few months ago, I asked the list for help with a hard-to-steer vehicle.
The Gigant writeup is in the most recent _Haymaker_, but there may be
people on this list running a WWII game that could use it, so here it is.
Leah
======
GIGANT
Background/Origin:
One effective tool of the German blitzkrieg were gliders. Forts in
Belgium that were expected to slow the Germans down fell to glider-borne
troops. For Operation Sealion, though, the Germans would need to send in
far more assault troops than their regular gliders could carry. In
response, German aircraft designers produced the largest glider known,
one able to carry tanks, heavy weapons, or 200 fully armed soldiers.
The Gigant assault glider weighed 40 tons and had a 180 foot wingspan
(about as large as a modern jumbo jet). Construction was fabric
stretched over a metal framework. The floor was reinforced to handle the
loads. This was intended as a "one-shot" vehicle; all controls were
manual, not hydraulic, and the wheels were attached to an undercarriage
that would be jettisoned after takeoff. The Gigant landed on attached
skids.
Getting the Gigant into the air took a mile-long runway, 3 Messerschmidt
110's as tow planes, and 6 booster rockets attached to the Gigant's
wings. (The rockets were also jettisoned after takeoff -- they were
parachuted to the ground for reuse.) Even with rocket assistance, the ME
110 pilots had trouble maintaining enough airspeed for takeoff. If
anything went wrong with the rockets or the tow planes, a crash was
almost certain.
Once in the air, test pilots learned that controlling this huge glider
took a lot of muscle. The first pilot suggested making the cockpit wide
enough for two people, to make the pushing and pulling a little easier.
(This was done starting with Gigant #101)
The Gigant was never used as an assault glider, Sealion was canceled
before it could be deployed. The Germans then tried to use it as a cargo
hauler, but its' maximum range wasn't long enough to get to the Russian
front in one hop. So, the Gigant was redesigned -- 6 engines were bolted
to the wings, and a permanent undercarriage substituted for the skids.
(The controls were still manual, though all the powered Gigants had two
pilots.) Machine gun ports and gunners were added, and the Gigant
finished the war shuttling supplies and soldiers to German armies in
Russia and North Africa.
If you can find it, Volume 2 of "The Secret War" (BBC Enterprises/Public
Media Video) has an interview with a test pilot who flew the early
unpowered Gigant, along with German film of both versions.
Abilities:
Very basic -- get cargo/troops from point A to point B. Gigant couldn't
do much, it wasn't built for fancy flying or maneuverability. But, if it
had been used for its' original purpose, Britain would have been in real
trouble. Most of the British army's supplies were left behind during the
evacuation from France; a Gigant-carried assault force would have been
better armed than the Home Guard.
Campaign Use:
In your Golden Age Champions campaign, the Germans might have attempted
an invasion. Superheroes should be able to repel a Gigant-carried force,
though anyone with a CAK may need to be creative -- the troops were meant
to climb out of the glider after landing, they wouldn't have parachutes.
Alternatively, the Germans could have used Gigants in other assaults.
An interesting deathtrap could be made from a Gigant (glider or powered)
with an improvised autopilot and a prisoner tied up in the hold. Aim the
Gigant at an Allied military or super-team base, parachute the pilot to
safety, and let the prisoner's buddies shoot him down.
The Germans and Japanese traded technical information during WWII --
anyone for kamikaze Gigants crammed full of explosives?
Statistics:
Glider Version
STR 55
-10 Body 9
Size 8 x 4
DEF 2
6 DEX 12
8 SPD 3
45 Size Increase
(Area 32 hexes, mass 50 {really 40} tons,
DCV -6, KB -9)
18 Gliding 18", x4 noncombat
Limited Maneuverability
12 Flight 18", x4 noncombat
OAF (tow planes and rockets)
1 continuing charge - 5 minutes
Limited Maneuverability
Stall speed 18"
Disadvantages:
20 Physical Limitation: Hard to Handle
(takeoffs require skill roll, any maneuvering
requires a STR roll -- all the time, greatly)
5 1d6 Unluck
3 Watched: resistance forces and Allied intelligence
(less powerful, 8-)
Active Cost: 79
Disadvantages: 28
Total Cost: 51
Powered Version
STR 55
-10 Body 9
Size 8 x 4
DEF 2
6 DEX 12
8 SPD 3
45 Size Increase
(Area 32 hexes, mass 50 {really 40} tons,
DCV -6, KB -9)
41 Flight 28", x4 noncombat
Limited Maneuverability
Stall Speed 14"
38 2d6+1 RKA
50 charges
Autofire (up to 5 shots)
Vehicle OAF (machine gun)
60 degree Arc of Fire
6 guns total
Disadvantages:
5 Crew -- needs two pilots
15 Hunted: Allied air forces
(as powerful, 11-)
5 1d6 Unluck
10 Reputation: "The Sticking-Plaster Bomber"
(among German military only, 14-)
Active Cost: 128
Disadvantages: 35
Total Cost: 93
Notes:
While the Gigant was a real glider/plane, I had to extrapolate a bit for
this writeup. If you know of any other sources on the Gigant, pass them
on to me.
No, I didn't forget to give this Invisibility to Radar. Considering that
early British radar was tested with fabric-covered planes and
successfully detected Zeppelin flights, the fabric-covered Gigant would
have shown up on a radar screen just fine. (I understand the Germans
were also working on an all-wood glider that _would_ have been hard for
radar to detect, but since it never got off the ground ....)
Glider version -- Giving a glider a stall speed is a bit weird, but it
sounds like it took everything the tow planes and boosters had to get
this thing in the air. Requiring takeoffs to be at noncombat speed
looked like the best way to model this.
Powered version -- German soldiers really _did_ call the powered Gigant
the "Sticking-Plaster Bomber". They hated being ordered to fly in it.
(I can't blame them; very few, if any, Gigants survived the war. They
made great targets for Allied fighters.)
The "Crew" limitation is from The Ultimate Vehicle -- thanks, Bob! The
powered Gigant was just as hard to fly as the original version, but the
whole point of putting two pilots in the cockpit was to make steering the
plane simpler. With two chances to make each roll, the Physical
Limitation I used for the glider wasn't going to be much of a limitation.
I'm guessing on the number of guns the Gigant mounted. I know the
powered Gigant had an 11-man crew, minus 2 pilots, minus at least 2
flight engineers (I don't know the exact number, but the plural was
used), 6 gunners looked most likely.
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:44:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
- --- "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> wrote:
> Power Option - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the
> Base Cost before Advantages are applied. Do not modify the Power
> beyond simply increasing it, or some other minor effect. Unlike
> Advantages and Adders, can be switched on and off. EX: The option to
> fill in a tunnel behind oneself.
This is an unnecessary distinction, just call it a Power Adder.
Personally, I wish I had written this a few days ago, but I've been
busy. I think the description under Tunnelling "May fill in tunnel
behind" is an adder. As such, if it is defined as part of the power,
you cannot turn it on and off, i.e. if you take that adder you must
always have the choice to fill or not fill the tunnel and you cannot
decide not to make that choice. It may be semantic gooble-de-guck but
I think it eliminates some of the earlier debate. (Does this make
sense?)
Yes, I think that, other than dice of effect, any power definition must
be used AS WRITTEN. All adders, advantages, limitations and stray
pencil marks on a power definition must be used, all together, when the
power is activated, except as noted in their write ups. Thus, since
there is a rule for using fewer dice of effect with most powers, you
can do that.
Joe
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------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #424
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:17 PM