Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 425
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 8:10 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #425
champ-l-digest Thursday, June 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 425
In this issue:
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
RE: 100 pts.
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
RE: 100 pts.
RE: 100 pts.
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
Re: Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
Re: Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
RE: 100 pts.
Scary Stuff (new Power Point article online)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
RE: 100 pts.
Serial Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:38:40 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
>>"Each Power Advantage has a multiplier that is used to figure the Active
>>cost of the Power (with the Advantage). The Active Cost is an
>>approximation of how powerful the Power actually is. The Active cost of a
>>Power with Power Advantages is found with the following formula: Active
>>Cost = Base Cost x (1+Advantages)"
>The rule of common sense *should* dictate that, in the absence of an
>official definition, the meaning in common usage be adopted. Base means
>primary; it's a starting point or a foundation. So "Base Cost" should mean
>the initial cost of the base Power before any modifiers are applied, yes?
>No Fringe is a modifier.
>
>So, No Fringe should not be considered part of the "Base Cost". While this
>makes the placement of Adders in the above formula ambiguous, the only
>thing that makes sense mathematically is to adjust the equation to read:
>
>Active Cost = (Base Cost+Adders) x (1+Advantages)
That is how I have always considered it yes. The problem is that you keep
saying that 'Adders' are advantages and as it says above EACH POWER
ADVANTAGE is used with a multiplier (not a straight add-on) and clearly
states that Power Advantages are used in the formula. This does not add
up, that was my only point.
>I propose we adopt some new terms:
>
>Power Advantage - No change. These are exactly what you and your
>supporters say they are, and work exactly like you say they do.
>
>Power Adder - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
>Cost before Advantages are applied. Must modify the Power and, like
>Advantages, cannot be switched on and off. EX: No Fringe.
I would be very comfortable with this, since it is consistent with the rest
of Hero's system (once you buy Force Field you can vary it but it has to be
proportional etc).
>Power Option - Not considered part of the Base Cost, but added to the Base
>Cost before Advantages are applied. Do not modify the Power beyond simply
>increasing it, or some other minor effect. Unlike Advantages and Adders,
>can be switched on and off. EX: The option to fill in a tunnel behind
>oneself.
We'll see, perhaps they have done just this thing in 5th edition (I
actually would like to see a lot of other changes that they left out such
as separating Tunnelling and Entangle's elements into separate parts,
little stuff like that).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:41:27 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
>> > Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
>> > Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place
>> it
>> > in a Power Framework.
>>
>> The errata and the last edition of the BBB, Champions Deluxe, changes it to
>> a Special Power.
>
>Hmm...my Champs Deluxe doesn't. (It's 4.2 Edition)
I have the last edition of Champions (4.2 like you), and in the big listing
o' powers it is given as Special, in the previous listing that blocks each
power into types it is listed as Standard, and in the description of Life
Support it is called Standard again. This pretty much seems to indicate
its Standard, but who knows what the last official word was. I have always
treated it as Standard, it's hardly abusive to do so.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:44:03 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: No Fringe Debate (New terms proposed)
>Yes, I think that, other than dice of effect, any power definition must
>be used AS WRITTEN. All adders, advantages, limitations and stray
>pencil marks on a power definition must be used, all together, when the
>power is activated, except as noted in their write ups. Thus, since
>there is a rule for using fewer dice of effect with most powers, you
>can do that.
It seems to be the default definition of how Powers are used in Hero yes.
That is exactly why I think there needs to be an advantage that allows you
to vary use of your power (yes I can use my Explosion or just a straight
energy blast, I can vary the senses my Images affects, I can use my Force
Field at whatever proportion of Defenses as long as it adds up to the same
(whether it be 8/8 or 1/15 or 13/3).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:12:22 PDT
From: S A Rudy <sarudy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
says Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu&>
> Mine were:
> Serial Immortality
> Shape Shifting
> and
> Biological Manipulation
>
> ...all of which are not easily simulated in HERO.
>
>Shape Shifting is not the typical "take any form" shape shifting.
>It's the ability to change the body. That means additional
>statistics if I take an athlelete's build, or exceptioanl looks, or
>whatever. I believe I said I'd only want to take humanoid
>forms...
Sounds like either a VPP with stats or AID with a slow recovery
rate (AID isn't just for healing - you can also AID STR, COM,
whatever).
>Biological Manipulation is very nasty. I can cure illnesses, but
>I can also stearlize humans and animals. I believe I wanted this
>on a global scale.
Well, if you want it on a global scalem then it'll cost on a
global scale. But it sounds like a fairly straightforward
Transform otherwise.
- -S
S A Rudy http://www.eclipse.net/~srudy
+----------------------------------------------------------+
|"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what |
| feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist |
| whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from |
| a doormat or a prostitute." -- Rebecca West, 1913 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:31:59 -0400
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
At 09:12 PM 6/23/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> ...all of which are not easily simulated in HERO.
>
> Serial Immortality is the ability to die, and then "ressurect" in
>a new body, which could be miles away. I picked this instead of your
>"standard Immortality" because a) If you don't age and b) you are very
>hard to kill: if you fall in a volcano, wear cement shoes to the bottom of
>the ocean, or otherwise go someone not-nice, you'll be there for eternity,
>which isn't plesant.
>
A reasonable consideration - though it might make for some legal problems.
If you resurrect in an identical body, you may have to explain the old one,
and if you resurrect in a different-looking body (a la The Immortal Man)
you'll most likely lose everything you own and be separated from everyone
you know.
A good way to do this would be with the Spirit rules. That is, if the
Spirit rules weren't so flawed. Duplication with a Trigger: Death of
Current Body might work, but you'd have to come up with a lot of points to
cover it each incarnation. If the Spirit rules were off limits I'd probably
build this power with Regeneration, Works After Death (+2), Works Only
After Death (-1), Linked to Teleportation, and treat the rest as SFX.
Bill Svitavsky
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:36:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:why@superlink.net]
>At 03:32 PM 6/23/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>>First they have to see you. There are bound to be some people who never
get
>>a good look at you who will want to kill you.
>
>No they only have to hear you. PRE is not line of sight. They only have
>to be aware of your statements. PRE attacks can be made over a bullhorn
>afterall. (We have you surrounded, come out with your hands up.)
And so you spend your days yelling everywhere, so that people who cannot see
you are intimidated. Anyone too far away to hear you can attempt to kill
you. If you stop yelling, then people who can't see you stop being
intimidated shortly, and can plot to kill you. If you sleep for too long,
someone will firebomb your room without looking inside.
>Besides, only by +50 PRE and buy in AoE Radius. Or maybe buy 66 Explosion.
> :-)
Still worthless vs heavy artillery, cruise missiles, and similar weapons.
Additionally, your average roll from 76 PRE (assuming you already have 10)
is only 52.5 points of effect. Even if you assume that NCM are the absolute
maximum a characteristic can be in the normal world (there is some
disagreement on this; I certainly wouldn't risk my life on it, if I found
that the HERO System and the real world had somehow overlapped), that still
means that there are a significant number of men and women over 40 who can
resist you enough to get only PRE+20 effect. They _can_ shoot you.
You have conquered the world via fear and intimidation. They _will_ find a
way to get you.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:22:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
At 07:10 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>> That KS doesn't help much when you need the information *now*, and you
>>need to "download" it into your brain without anyone the wiser....
>
>But that's the point; rarely does one really need many skills completely on
>the fly. Instead, you need them during research and other downtime
>processes that give you plenty of time to swap out.
Assumably. When I GM, nearly every Skill on the character sheets is
needed on the fly at some time or other.
>> Besides, who needs gobs of narrowly specific KSes when one can just get
>>a more general one with a high Roll? Why get Entomology 11-, Floral Botany
>>11-, and Biochemistry 11- separately if Biological Sciences 15- will work
>>at -4 to give you the same result as those, and a number of other Sciences
>>as well? The same principle holds there, even if to a lesser extent.
>
>There at least you need a relationship of some kind, or the skills is so
>broad it has no depth for anything. I'll let someone take KS: General
>Knowledge, for example; but unless they're using it for the most general
>things, the skill penelties are hideous and the knowledge accrued minor. By
>the time you get that one so it's useful, you can easily have bought the
>equivlenet of 10-15 other skills. Doing the same thing with a VPP could
>cost as little as 6 points, because you can define the skill pulled out of
>it very narrowly if needed.
Assuming, of course, that the source of the Skills has one that narrow
on hand, and that the character can even get to that source.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
- --- Raven <raven@neteze.com> wrote:
> I just checked in Creation Workshop (ver 1.5) and life support is listed as
> a standard power there. Has anyone heard from Hero games about it yet?
>
I've seen it listed as both Special and Standard in various locations of
various pritings of the 4th Edition rules. I'm not certain what the last word
from the kids at Hero Games was, but I've always treated it as a Special power
based on it's non-typical cost/effect structure: It's a non-scalable absolute,
which is not the norm for Hero powers (by non-scalable I mean within each
component of LS - in other words, you don't by x points of Immune to Age to
negate y points of aging; you simply buy Immune to Age and you are immune to
it).
- -=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:54:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
From: dflacks [SMTP:dflacks@ican.net]
>
>>Life Support is a Special Power which cannot be put into a Power Framework
>>without Special GM Permission. If you have your GM's permission it is
>>perfectly legal, but then again so is anything else.
>>
>Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
>Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place it
>in a Power Framework.
I have a terminal case of versionitis. Please give generously to the Society
for the Prevention and Cure of Versionitis, as soon as I set it up.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:59:13 PDT
From: Jesse Thomas <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> wrote:
>A good way to do this would be with the Spirit rules. That is, if the
>Spirit rules weren't so flawed. Duplication with a Trigger: Death of
>Current Body might work, but you'd have to come up with a lot of points to
>cover it each incarnation. If the Spirit rules were off limits I'd probably
>build this power with Regeneration, Works After Death (+2), Works Only
>After Death (-1), Linked to Teleportation, and treat the rest as SFX.
>
There is also a paragraph on Serial Immortality in TUM. I don't remember
being very impressed by it, but I don't have my copy here, so I can't say
for certain that it doesn't have some useful advice.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:54:46 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
>>Besides, only by +50 PRE and buy in AoE Radius. Or maybe buy 66 Explosion.
>> :-)
>You have conquered the world via fear and intimidation. They _will_ find a
>way to get you.
Actually the concept I had in mind was less fear and intimidation than awe
and worship. At 110 Presence, I would think a single meeting would leave
you with an overwhelming, life changing experience that would leave you in
service to the figure rather than in terror. Kind of how people would
serve a powerful good leader and follow them to their death. Presence is
more than terrifying people, it includes leadership and inspiration.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:57:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, David Nasset wrote:
> From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:why@superlink.net]
> >At 03:32 PM 6/23/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
> >>First they have to see you. There are bound to be some people who never
> get
> >>a good look at you who will want to kill you.
> >
> >No they only have to hear you. PRE is not line of sight. They only have
> >to be aware of your statements. PRE attacks can be made over a bullhorn
> >afterall. (We have you surrounded, come out with your hands up.)
>
> And so you spend your days yelling everywhere, so that people who cannot see
> you are intimidated. Anyone too far away to hear you can attempt to kill
> you. If you stop yelling, then people who can't see you stop being
> intimidated shortly, and can plot to kill you. If you sleep for too long,
> someone will firebomb your room without looking inside.
<snip>
> You have conquered the world via fear and intimidation. They _will_ find a
> way to get you.
Why does everyone assume that PRE has to be used to intimidate people?
Good grief, if I had +100 PRE, I'd be *friendly* to people. Then they'd
*want* to do what I tell them to, because gee, isn't it great that such an
amazingly cool guy is taking an interest in what I'm doing? And he states
his points so well...it all makes *sense* when he says it.
Need to see the president? I'll just call someone at the white house and
buddy-buddy up the ranks until I get an appointment...heck, let's lower
the PRE to +70 or so and get Universal translator. I still have a 23-
base roll with all my PRE-based skills. Need peace talks in Kosovo?
Sure...I'll use the extraordinary skills rule and still have a 13- chance
of pulling it off. (More if I take extra time, like a week or so...)
So you wouldn't be directly in charge of the world...you'd just be
everybody's bestest friend, and able to pretty much get them to do
whatever you want. And they *won't* be mad at you, either...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:51:30 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
At 11:54 AM 6/24/1999 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>From: dflacks [SMTP:dflacks@ican.net]
>
>>
>>>Life Support is a Special Power which cannot be put into a Power Framework
>>>without Special GM Permission. If you have your GM's permission it is
>>>perfectly legal, but then again so is anything else.
>>>
>>Actually, I just checked out my copy of the BBB and Life Support is a
>>Standard Power, not a Special Power. As such you can feel free to place it
>>in a Power Framework.
>
>I have a terminal case of versionitis. Please give generously to the Society
>for the Prevention and Cure of Versionitis, as soon as I set it up.
Of course, then we'll have to figure out which version of the society
we're giving to....
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
- --- Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> wrote:
> At 09:12 PM 6/23/99 -0400, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > ...all of which are not easily simulated in HERO.
> >
> > Serial Immortality is the ability to die, and then "ressurect"
> >in a new body, which could be miles away. I picked this instead of
> >your "standard Immortality" because a) If you don't age and b) you
> >are very hard to kill: if you fall in a volcano, wear cement shoes
> >to the bottom of the ocean, or otherwise go someone not-nice,
> >you'll be there for eternity, which isn't plesant.
>
> A reasonable consideration - though it might make for some legal
> problems. If you resurrect in an identical body, you may have to
> explain the old one, and if you resurrect in a different-looking body
> (a la The Immortal Man) you'll most likely lose everything you own
> and be separated from everyone you know.
I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality. It is a
no brainer. In fact, it is the cheapest of the three example powers
because: It costs nothing!
The last time I had a character die in a game. I made a new character
and continued playing in the same campaign. Because the old character
was not a Serial Immortal, the new character did not know the stuff
that the old character did.
Extrapolating, Serial Immortality is ...
KS: Knowledge of prior incarnations
Psych Lim: Prior incarnations' emotional baggage. (I love Sarah even
though I never met her. I remember having a mother who sang to me.
etc.)
... on the NEW character's character sheet. The rest is SFX and plot.
If you want to be anal about it, you could include a 1 point perk on
the OLD character: Knowledge can be serialized after death.
Sorry if it sounded like I was ranting,
Joe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:26:54 -0700
From: Rodger Bright <rodger.bright@cbpr.com>
Subject: Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
I am at work, and don't have my Champions book with me.
Who knows the costs for END Reserves?
- --Rodger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:31:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Rodger Bright wrote:
> I am at work, and don't have my Champions book with me.
>
> Who knows the costs for END Reserves?
10 END - 1 pt
1 REC- 1 pt
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Go-Go-Gadget Thermonuclear Device!"
William K. "Bushmaster" Bushway
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:32:20 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Hero System Rules Nerd needed!
At 02:26 PM 6/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I am at work, and don't have my Champions book with me.
>
>Who knows the costs for END Reserves?
1 pt./ REC
1 pts/10 END
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:46:52 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
> There is also a paragraph on Serial Immortality in TUM. I don't remember
> being very impressed by it, but I don't have my copy here, so I can't say
> for certain that it doesn't have some useful advice.
It was odd: it suggested buying Immune to Dying as a Life Support-type
power. Then you just reincarnate in a new body for 3 points. There are
several potential problems with this way of doing it, such as not having to
pay for the various benefits of being around in the next body. However, it
works perfectly if all you have is past life memories and have to grow up
over again, since that's got many, many drawbacks to counterbalance being
alive.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:12:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
From: Christopher Taylor [SMTP:ctaylor@viser.net]
>
>>>Besides, only by +50 PRE and buy in AoE Radius. Or maybe buy 66
Explosion.
>>> :-)
>>You have conquered the world via fear and intimidation. They _will_ find a
>>way to get you.
>
>Actually the concept I had in mind was less fear and intimidation than awe
>and worship. At 110 Presence, I would think a single meeting would leave
>you with an overwhelming, life changing experience that would leave you in
>service to the figure rather than in terror. Kind of how people would
>serve a powerful good leader and follow them to their death. Presence is
>more than terrifying people, it includes leadership and inspiration.
PRE attacks can inspire those who are on your side, and cow those who are
not. Unfortunately, _you_ don't get to decide which. Having Presence doesn't
allow you to make people be on your side, that's catch as catch can, if you
don't have a Power/Skill to arrange this. Thus, your power will only inspire
people and put them in awe of you if they are already on your side, or
decide to convert upon the spot. Those who do not will fear you, and likely
want to destroy you.
Now, if you also had Persuasion, Oratory, and Seduction, then you could
convince them they want to be on your side. But you didn't include them, so
you just get to hope. And in the meantime, some smart guy who was on the
fear/cowering side poisons your entire staff to get you. If he's really
smart, he might even manage to save your staff.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:02:13 -0400
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net>
Subject: Scary Stuff (new Power Point article online)
My new article, about how to use fear in your games, is now online, at
http://www.haymaker.org/haym21.html
Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:09:54 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
>I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality. It is a
>no brainer. In fact, it is the cheapest of the three example powers
>because: It costs nothing!
>
>The last time I had a character die in a game. I made a new character
>and continued playing in the same campaign. Because the old character
>was not a Serial Immortal, the new character did not know the stuff
>that the old character did.
>
>Extrapolating, Serial Immortality is ...
>
>KS: Knowledge of prior incarnations
>Psych Lim: Prior incarnations' emotional baggage. (I love Sarah even
>though I never met her. I remember having a mother who sang to me.
>etc.)
>
>... on the NEW character's character sheet. The rest is SFX and plot.
>
>If you want to be anal about it, you could include a 1 point perk on
>the OLD character: Knowledge can be serialized after death.
You are exactly right, the old character is tore up and the new one begins
:) Really not that tough, it's just not a power construction as such, and
would require GM approval. Possibly other Disadvantages would continue
with it (if the character was hunted in whatever form, had a constant
hatred of blue meanies in each form, etc).
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:08:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
>Extrapolating, Serial Immortality is ...
>
>KS: Knowledge of prior incarnations
>Psych Lim: Prior incarnations' emotional baggage. (I love Sarah even
>though I never met her. I remember having a mother who sang to me.
>etc.)
>
>... on the NEW character's character sheet. The rest is SFX and plot.
>
>If you want to be anal about it, you could include a 1 point perk on
>the OLD character: Knowledge can be serialized after death.
I would absolutely require some such cost, as otherwise you are giving away
a perfectly good power for free. It wouldn't cost much, but I do not
consider it just SFX. Additionally, in the case in question (i.e. _you_ are
given free points), this _is_ harder to purchase than the other
possibilities; since you can't spend points on it, you cannot buy it.
I'd add in a couple of things. First of all, I wouldn't call it a Perk. I
see two or three ways to do it:
Transformation, Triggered by death, creates new person who remembers being
me.
Duplication, only at death, creates new me, ranged (with enough range to set
him safely distant).
Or, if your GM is generous:
Talent: Immunity to death, 3 pts. SFX Serial Immortality.
The new character would probably have to have most/all knowledge-based
skills of the original, as well as the Psych Lims.
>Sorry if it sounded like I was ranting,
De nada.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:31:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: RE: 100 pts.
Dr. Nuncheon [SMTP:jeffj@io.com]
<snip>
>
>Why does everyone assume that PRE has to be used to intimidate people?
I never assumed anything of the sort. However, just buying PRE doesn't allow
you to decide how people will react. It gives you a bonus to PRE-based
Skills he didn't buy, the ability to resist PRE Attacks, and the ability to
do PRE Attacks. And positive PRE Attacks are only positive on people who are
on your side. He made no provisions for _ensuring_ they would be on his
side.
>Good grief, if I had +100 PRE, I'd be *friendly* to people. Then they'd
>*want* to do what I tell them to, because gee, isn't it great that such an
>amazingly cool guy is taking an interest in what I'm doing? And he states
>his points so well...it all makes *sense* when he says it.
You are assuming skills like Persuasion, Oratory, and Seduction, without
purchasing them. Without them, you don't sound any more persuasive,
friendly, or convincing than other people; you are just awesome.
>Need to see the president? I'll just call someone at the white house and
>buddy-buddy up the ranks until I get an appointment...heck, let's lower
>the PRE to +70 or so and get Universal translator. I still have a 23-
>base roll with all my PRE-based skills.
What PRE-based Skills? Are you just assuming that you _and_ the person who
originated the idea both have Persuasion, Oratory, Seduction, Bureaucracy,
and all the other Skills you will need?
>Need peace talks in Kosovo?
>Sure...I'll use the extraordinary skills rule and still have a 13- chance
>of pulling it off. (More if I take extra time, like a week or so...)
Not if you didn't buy Persuasion. Then you get only an 8-, no matter what
your PRE.
>So you wouldn't be directly in charge of the world...you'd just be
>everybody's bestest friend, and able to pretty much get them to do
>whatever you want. And they *won't* be mad at you, either...
That is all very nice, and in fact was _my_ suggestion. The problem is, you
assumed you _already have_ the PRE-based Skills to take advantage of your
awesome PRE, and I see no reason to assume this. You might have such skills,
but are you certain you have more than an 8-? And are you certain the
original poster did, as well? If you are wrong, then unless you purchase the
skills to get the people to like you, you are really just an incredibly
awesome and intimidating person, with no way to control whether people like
you or fear you. And those who fear you will fear you a great deal.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:05:22 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Serial Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
> I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality. It is a
> no brainer. In fact, it is the cheapest of the three example powers
> because: It costs nothing!
Actually, what's often desired when discussing purchasing Serial Immortality
for a character includes the following:
1. The ability to die frequently and be reborn in a new body.
2. The ability to do so frequently: it's a major part of the character
conception, and should be shown off.
3. The ability to do so and not lose any and all experience from the games
you've played the character in to date.
Unfortunately, if the player wants all three of these things, your
suggestion doesn't actually do the job. On the other hand, it is on the
right track: really, there's no perfect way to do it in the system, so the
purchaser should get a set of abilities that are close enough and discuss
what is really desired with the GM.
If the 5th Edition has Regeneration has Regenerate from Death, or if the
assumption in a given campaign is that Regeration does this normally, one
could buy Regeration with the Side Effect limitation: when returning from
death, the character is both Transformed and Teleported. While the total
points for the Side Effect are likely many more than the power being bought,
that shouldn't be a problem. Since it does have its benefits, and is
primarily an inconvenience rather than lethal, it's probably only a -1/2, or
even a -1/4, limitation. If the player starts commiting suicide to change
bodies (which should be under some control by the GM) too often, it should
probably also be bought as a Multiform in some way, but as long as the
player doesn't do so it should be all right.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:48 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
At 02:29 PM 6/24/1999 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
>I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality.
You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
(Waiting to see who gets it....)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
>I just checked in Creation Workshop (ver 1.5) and life support is listed as
>a standard power there. Has anyone heard from Hero games about it yet?
Every time I recall them commenting on it it's been a Special Power.
Probably the coder was working off a bad powers list. Wouldn't be hard to
do since it's mislisted in most of the older versions of the rules.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:36:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>At 02:29 PM 6/24/1999 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>
>>I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality.
>
> You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
> (Waiting to see who gets it....)
Short wait.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:48:16 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Rules Violation??? (was:Re: 100 pts.)
> Hmm...my Champs Deluxe doesn't. (It's 4.2 Edition)
In the table on page 57 is listed as a Special every other place it is
Standard. I knew that the BBB Deluxe was supposed to be fixed and assumed
that it was correct obviously it is only partially fixed, sort of like
MSOffice 97. Once again proving what happens when you assume, especially
late at night. Sorry.
> Where the heck is the errata stored? Is it online somewhere?
I don't know of anywhere it is stored online. I believe it was originally
published in an issue of Adventurer's Club. The errors it referred to were
in the original BBB. These changes were supposed to be incorporated into
the Hero System Rulebook and of course later editions of the BBB.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:49:45 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
> (Waiting to see who gets it....)
I got it, you want it back? :-)
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:55:00 -0400
From: David Nasset <dnasset@cns.eds.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>
>At 02:29 PM 6/24/1999 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>
>>I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality.
>
> You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
> (Waiting to see who gets it....)
Just for that one, I'm going to have to use the Sex Ray on you.
No, wait. That was _Flesh_ Gordon. Sorry.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Skills in VPP's (was Welcome to the Modern Age)
>At 07:10 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>
>>> That KS doesn't help much when you need the information *now*, and you
>>>need to "download" it into your brain without anyone the wiser....
>>
>>But that's the point; rarely does one really need many skills completely on
>>the fly. Instead, you need them during research and other downtime
>>processes that give you plenty of time to swap out.
>
> Assumably. When I GM, nearly every Skill on the character sheets is
>needed on the fly at some time or other.
I've seen cases where it was nice to have them on the fly, but I can't
'need' describes it. Unless you actively go out of your way to ensure all
skills are used, and I don't really think that's the usual case. (I also
find it a little contrived, but that's neither here nor there.)
>
>>> Besides, who needs gobs of narrowly specific KSes when one can just get
>>>a more general one with a high Roll? Why get Entomology 11-, Floral Botany
>>>11-, and Biochemistry 11- separately if Biological Sciences 15- will work
>>>at -4 to give you the same result as those, and a number of other Sciences
>>>as well? The same principle holds there, even if to a lesser extent.
>>
>>There at least you need a relationship of some kind, or the skills is so
>>broad it has no depth for anything. I'll let someone take KS: General
>>Knowledge, for example; but unless they're using it for the most general
>>things, the skill penelties are hideous and the knowledge accrued minor. By
>>the time you get that one so it's useful, you can easily have bought the
>>equivlenet of 10-15 other skills. Doing the same thing with a VPP could
>>cost as little as 6 points, because you can define the skill pulled out of
>>it very narrowly if needed.
>
> Assuming, of course, that the source of the Skills has one that narrow
>on hand, and that the character can even get to that source.
If I have to micromanage the ability enough to ensure that's not the case,
then I think it's probably still too cheap. Personally, if someone really
wanted to do this sort of thing, I'd be much more comfortable with the
stacked Cramming idea; at least the minimal investment there is fairly serious.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:09:32 PDT
From: Jesse Thomas <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
ON Thu, 24 Jun 1999 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:
> You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
> (Waiting to see who gets it....)
Ha. Ha-ha. I get it. I'm in physical pain, but I get it.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
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