Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 426
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 9:13 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #426
champ-l-digest Friday, June 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 426
In this issue:
Re: Partial Use of Powers
100 pts
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Serial Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Question about Concepts
Re: Serial Immortality
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Re: Serial Immortality
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1999 20:18:56 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
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* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
| Which of your statements do you really mean? Is No Fringe part of Base Cost
| or is it not used in figuring Active Cost? You can't have it both ways.
The problem is not that I am contradicting myself. The problem is that you
are rather painfully or deliberately ignoring the obvious.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:15:35 +0800
From: Allan Dunbar <adunbar@iinet.net.au>
Subject: 100 pts
I think I replied to this, bu it obviously never got through to the
list.
Anyway, if you know what a Draka is, then you'd know how I'd spend my
points. Although the skills would be expensive. Basically, a geneticall
engineered supersoldier, that never ages, is smarter than God and has it's
desire to conquer linked to it's sex drive. They have a very high libido
and therefore an overwhelming desire to conquer. And since they don't age,
they are patient. A Draka's knowledge alone would be worth it.
Pity about the psych and phys lims they come with. Bloodthirsty, soulless,
totally arrogant. Nice guys, if you're one of them.
If you don't know what I am talking about, read the following books by S.M.
Stirling.
Marching through Georgia
Under the Yoke
The Stone Dogs
Drakon
All very good, and in parts, very distasteful, but damn interesting.
Regards
Allan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:47:50 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> * "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
> | Which of your statements do you really mean? Is No Fringe part of Base
Cost
> | or is it not used in figuring Active Cost? You can't have it both ways.
>
> The problem is not that I am contradicting myself. The problem is that
you
> are rather painfully or deliberately ignoring the obvious.
What point am I missing? I am not deliberately ignoring anything concerning
the rules or your statement.
But, since you seem to have ignored my question, if you don't consider No
Fringe for Invisibility part of the Base Cost of Invisibility why do you
include the points spent on it in the calculation of Active Cost?
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:51:36 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Serial Re: Not that hard to build (was Re: 100 pts.)
Multiple responses below:
At 03:08 PM 6/24/99 -0400, David Nasset wrote:
>From: Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:jmucchiello@yahoo.com]
>
>>Extrapolating, Serial Immortality is ...
>>
>>KS: Knowledge of prior incarnations
>>Psych Lim: Prior incarnations' emotional baggage. (I love Sarah even
>>though I never met her. I remember having a mother who sang to me.
>>etc.)
>>
>>... on the NEW character's character sheet. The rest is SFX and plot.
>>
>>If you want to be anal about it, you could include a 1 point perk on
>>the OLD character: Knowledge can be serialized after death.
>
>I would absolutely require some such cost, as otherwise you are giving away
>a perfectly good power for free. It wouldn't cost much, but I do not
>consider it just SFX. Additionally, in the case in question (i.e. _you_ are
>given free points), this _is_ harder to purchase than the other
>possibilities; since you can't spend points on it, you cannot buy it.
Why would you "absolutely" require some such cost? It is not a useful
power. The only things that is useful is the KS.
>I'd add in a couple of things. First of all, I wouldn't call it a Perk. I
>see two or three ways to do it:
>
>Transformation, Triggered by death, creates new person who remembers being
>me.
Don't forget 0 END, Persistant, Uncontrolled, and Cumulative. That costs
too much for a one shot power which will not be used by the character sheet
it is written on.
>Duplication, only at death, creates new me, ranged (with enough range to set
>him safely distant).
Again, it has to be Uncontrolled, Triggered, Persistant and it is still a
one shot power used just before shreading the character sheet.
>Or, if your GM is generous:
>
>Talent: Immunity to death, 3 pts. SFX Serial Immortality.
That still costs too much. Most likely, the "first" character will have
the KS for his prior, pre-campaign start lives. That should be sufficient.
>The new character would probably have to have most/all knowledge-based
>skills of the original, as well as the Psych Lims.
Not necessarily. Think Dial-H-for-Hero.
>At 04:05 PM 6/24/99 -0700, James Jandebeur wrote:
>> I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality. It is a
>> no brainer. In fact, it is the cheapest of the three example powers
>> because: It costs nothing!
>
>Actually, what's often desired when discussing purchasing Serial Immortality
>for a character includes the following:
>
>1. The ability to die frequently and be reborn in a new body.
Player characters can easily die frequently and, just as frequently, return
to play in "new" body.
>2. The ability to do so frequently: it's a major part of the character
>conception, and should be shown off.
I still don't see how my suggestion denies you your death.
>3. The ability to do so and not lose any and all experience from the games
>you've played the character in to date.
That's the GM's call. Remember, my way the NEW body pays to know what the
OLD body use to know. Aside from that, what is needed to be "reborn in a
new body"?
Also, think Dial-H-for-HERO (Again), the various Heroes had varying amounts
of Character Points. I don't think you should care about losing XP if you
play a different character at the drop of a 20D6 RKA. :-)
>If the 5th Edition has Regeneration has Regenerate from Death, or if the
>assumption in a given campaign is that Regeration does this normally, one
>could buy Regeration with the Side Effect limitation: when returning from
>death, the character is both Transformed and Teleported. While the total
>points for the Side Effect are likely many more than the power being bought,
>that shouldn't be a problem. Since it does have its benefits, and is
>primarily an inconvenience rather than lethal, it's probably only a -1/2, or
>even a -1/4, limitation. If the player starts commiting suicide to change
>bodies (which should be under some control by the GM) too often, it should
>probably also be bought as a Multiform in some way, but as long as the
>player doesn't do so it should be all right.
That is a complete waste of points. The character sheet that it's written
on is never going to be used again. He's dead, Jim. (Sorry, Mr.
Jandebeur.) Get over it. You are supposed to model powers based on what
happens. What happens is a character comes into existence with all of the
knowledge of the dead guy. Sounds like a KS to me.
Personally, as a GM, I find the character concept annoying. Every time he
kills himself Heroically, I have to proofcheck his latest/greatest concept
and make sure he isn't doing anything too unbalancing. Verify his Disads
match the prior sheet where applicable. Character creation is the slow
boring part of the system.
At 03:41 PM 6/24/99 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:29 PM 6/24/1999 -0700, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>
>>I must say, I am sick to death (no pun) of Serial Immortality.
>
> You want Serial Immortality? Play Flash Gordon! ;-]
> (Waiting to see who gets it....)
I distinctly said "No pun"! People just don't listen sometimes. :-)
Joe
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1999 21:01:48 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
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* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
| But, since you seem to have ignored my question, if you don't consider No
| Fringe for Invisibility part of the Base Cost of Invisibility why do you
| include the points spent on it in the calculation of Active Cost?
*sigh*
You are assuming that No Fringe must be either part of the base cost or a
Power Advantage when in fact it is something between the two.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:13:21 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> >> STR lifts mass.
> >
> >In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
> >(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
> >in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
>
> Energy Blast makes holes in walls by damaging them. STR does not
> lift things by hitting or squeezing them. It lifts them by, well,
> lifting them.
Yes, but generally speaking Bricks buy STR to do more damage, not to
be able to lift heavy things. At least in my experience. The lifting
is a "side effect".
> >(As an aside - this is why I don't think fixing HA is as simple as
> >increasing the cost to 5 pts per die. Why would anyone buy it, when
> >they could buy STR and get Figured Characteristics as well? I
> >personally set it at 5 pts per die, but it's a 0 END power by
> >default).
>
> Someone once posted a version of HA that cost 5 points per die, but
> at that level had many of the properties of Energy Blast that you
> wouldn't get with STR, such as Spreading. I liked this version, and
> strongly recommended it for 5th Edition Hero. The idea was clearly
> not the road taken, though....
I remember seeing that, vaguely. I'm still not sure it's the way to
go - perhaps simply dumping HA completely, and buying STR "only for
damage (-1)" or something similar would be preferable.
> >I can see why you have a problem with Punch - but Squeeze? Using
> >TK to squeeze someone is about the most common use there is in the
> >genre - from the Great and Powerful Turtle to Marvel Girl/Phoenix.
>
> Not to mention Uncle Martin, any Jedi Knight, a couple of Star Trek
> one-off characters (notably in the episode "Plato's Stepchildren," but
> one or two others as well), et al. But of all that, I've never seen
> anything that I'd call a "telekinetic squeeze," except maybe in one
> ST:Classic case where a powerful telekinetic had hold of (I think)
> Kirk's throat.
Mork would be another possibility. ;-)
> I've seen effects where telekinesis was used, and something was being
> squeezed, but the dynamic of what was going on would lead me to use
> something else -- in most cases, RKA BOECV w/BODY -- to represent it in
> game terms.
I personally would generally just assume someone was using a telekinetic
Grab at range.
Here is the crux of my point - I don't think if TK was simply able to
lift things, that anyone would buy it. Either that, or they would
simply buy Energy Blast with the special effect that they were squeezing
the target telekinetically.
If anything, TK is OVERpriced rather than UNDERpriced - but there's no
easy way around that, since you can't make it superior to Energy Blast.
If Real Cost is all you're after, then you can always apply limitations
to bring the cost down. But in general, most telekinetics want AT LEAST
the squeeze function. It seems foolish to make the base power so devoid
of features that few will buy it without some sort of Advantages - it
would be like an Energy Blast where you had to buy "Does Knockback" and
"Can be Spread" separately. I favour the current "default".
> >Regardless - TK is ranged STR; anything STR can do, TK should be
> >able to do as well. Are you suggesting that you would prefer TK
> >to be something like Flight, UAO?
>
> No, I'm saying that I'd prefer TK to be lift and move only. Damaging
> effects should be bought separately, using damaging Powers.
So you're against Move Throughs and Move Bys, then? As well as the
common tactic of grabbing someone, Flying up a bit, and then dropping
them?
Or, hell, just punching them? Why, if TK should be lift and move only,
should STR not also be lift and move only?
TK is Ranged STR, remember.
> >I've seen this at the AE: One Hex level often enough, but rarely
> >higher.
>
> Same here, at least in game write-ups, though I've seen giants in TV
> and movies that would be other versions.
To be perfectly honest, it has ALWAYS seemed to me that the advantage
is bought primarily to avoid having to hit your opponent's DCV and
just go for the hex DCV of 3.
But that's OK. With the sort of STR in consideration - generally 60 or
more - AE 1 hex costs 30 points; you could get 10 3 pt combat levels
for that.
> >If you use only one hand, then your STR is considered 5 pts less than
> >normal (makes sense; 5 pts less is "half" STR). AE STR would presumably
> >mean really big hands, but you can generally only pick up 1 object in
> >each hand in any case. So I'd allow the giant to pick up two objects -
> >one with each hand - with his STR - 5 for both. Of course, this isn't
> >actually any more than he could normally carry. But if he had Extra
> >Limbs, then he'd be able to grab and lift multiple objects in this
> >fashion.
>
> This is stretching things a bit IMO. After all, as you apparently
> acknowledge yourself, if the giant has 100 STR he'd still be able to
> lift only 100 STR worth of stuff (100 tons IIRC) no matter how big his
> hands were or how many limbs he has.
Well, the rule is that if you use only 1 hand, you get STR -5. It is
certainly arguable that the Extra Limbs case was not considered, but
it is strongly implied that any two limbs can exert your full STR.
That's the primary appeal of Extra Limbs - be a 4 armed Grond lookalike,
and you can Grab one target with two hands and pound away with the
others, all at full STR. Once again I say - if you can Punch or Grab
at full STR with 2 limbs, then I see no good reason for disallowing
lifting with full STR.
Note that I'm perfectly happy to agree this could be abused. For 5
points, I could have thousands of Extra Limbs, and if I have a 30 STR
and sufficient Reach, I could immobilize an entire football team
whilst picking the pockets of all the spectators. I've always thought
Extra Limbs was an abusable power; I wouldn't have this problem if
someone bought AE:Radius on their STR.
> >TK is different. By default, it's only got one "hand", but when you
> >buy Area Effect you get a whole pile of other "hands" to use. In
> >effect, as I see it, Area Effect TK gives you as many "Extra Limbs"
> >as there are targets (if one seriously disagrees with this, consider
> >that those "extra hands" could certainly swat or squeeze multiple
> >targets with full STR - so why not lift?)
>
> Maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but to my mind if AoE
> gave the user extra telekinetic "hands" then those "hands" wouldn't
> have to be in adjacent hexes. It's more like increasing the size of
> the "hand."
All seemingly fine - but add "Selective" to the AE and this explanation
becomes difficult to accept.
> Whether that's the case or not, I don't see having extra "hands"
> making this kind of a difference on Telekinesis, any more than I'd
> see Extra Limbs doing the same for STR.
I argue that it is required for consistency. If I can use full STR -
TK or otherwise - to punch someone, then I should be able to use full
STR to lift someone, too. They are two sides of the same coin, IMHO.
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:17:22 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
> >> STR lifts mass.
> >
> >In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
> >(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
> >in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
>
> I'd really have to disagree with that; if all you want to do is hit
> things or do a Continuous attack, there are much better ways to do it.
> TK is almost always taken in one way or another for it's manipulative
> properties, not it's damaging properties.
Absolutely agreed, but I am reasoning from the general to the specific
here. I state that the primary use of _STR_ is hitting and squeezing
things. Buying more STR is a VERY efficient way of hitting things in
HTH combat - especially if you take Haymakers into account.
Sure, you can buy Martial Arts, or HA instead. But the former is
harder to apply Advantages to (some GMs allow it, others do not);
the latter is (most would agree) a broken power; and neither helps
the Haymaker damage.
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>> >> STR lifts mass.
>> >
>> >In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
>> >(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
>> >in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
>>
>> I'd really have to disagree with that; if all you want to do is hit
>> things or do a Continuous attack, there are much better ways to do it.
>> TK is almost always taken in one way or another for it's manipulative
>> properties, not it's damaging properties.
>
>Absolutely agreed, but I am reasoning from the general to the specific
>here. I state that the primary use of _STR_ is hitting and squeezing
>things. Buying more STR is a VERY efficient way of hitting things in
>HTH combat - especially if you take Haymakers into account.
I think doing that in this case is a bad approach, however; to some extent
you have to look at the function the specific serves, not the general. I'm
also not sure I agree with the general.
>
>Sure, you can buy Martial Arts, or HA instead. But the former is
>harder to apply Advantages to (some GMs allow it, others do not);
>the latter is (most would agree) a broken power; and neither helps
>the Haymaker damage.
They're both, on the other hand, much more efficient ways to go if you're
simply wanting maximum damage output in hand to hand combat.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:32:41 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Question about Concepts
JVButlerJr@aol.com wrote:
>
> I am hoping that at least a few people on this list are
> familiar with the Wild Card series of books. If so:
Indeed. An excellent series, though less so since Roger Zelazny died.
The Sleeper was always my favourite, and nobody else writes him
correctly.
> 1. How would one go about writing up Ti Malice and his
> "addictive" saliva and its effects on others?
This sort of long-term Mind Control would be best simulated with a
Transform, IMHO.
> 2. How would one write up the Jumper's interesting variant on
> mind control?
If you like the Hero System Almanac 1, then Jumpers could be given
Shift Spirit.
Otherwise it really has to be done as a Transform. It is a possibly
permanent effect, after all. The limitation on the Transform would be
"Victim's consciousness is placed in own body" (-1/4, since most
victims are comatose for quite a while).
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:28:19 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Serial Immortality
First of all: All I said is that your method didn't cover all cases. This is
an ability that could be very important to the character conception, and
give the player an advantage over everyone else. Therefore, charging for it
is far from unreasonable. If it gives no advantage, it's obviously worth no
points. It seems to me that the ability to die and come back in new bodies
again and again (within reason) is worth points, since it is not an ability
that all the PC's will have, you obviously disagree.
> That is a complete waste of points. The character sheet that it's written
> on is never going to be used again. He's dead, Jim. (Sorry, Mr.
> Jandebeur.)
No need to appologize. You stated an opinion. I don't agree with it.
Besides, I go by James.
The new character sheet will have it on it. The power I described, if the GM
allows it, causes the character to continue. Just because everything else is
written anew is beside the point.
> You are supposed to model powers based on what
> happens.
Exactly, which is what I did: the original character pays, what, about 13
points for the ability to come back from the dead in a new body, while
keeping experience earned and not starting from scratch, while matching the
ability desired? Horror.
As far as the power being gone: how do you draw that conclusion? It goes on
the new character's sheet just like on the old one. Everything else might be
changed, though.
> What happens is a character comes into existence with all of the
> knowledge of the dead guy. Sounds like a KS to me.
All of the knowledge of the dead guy is a series of skills and abilities
that the character bought with points, whether from starting points or
experience. If the character has 100 points in skills, say, 75 from
experience, then letting him tie it all up with a 3 point KS doesn't work
very well. Some skills would go away, true: it depends on what the player
wanted. If all that is desired is to come back once with vague memories of
the previous life, a KS is the way to go with GM's permission. If doing so
often while keeping the same point total is wanted, 13 continues to be a
small price to pay.
If the GM is willing to let the new character be built on the same points as
the old, yes, it becomes a waste of points. In the superhero genre,
especially, where the character may very well come back to life on his or
her own, this isn't much of a problem. But otherwise, which is what I was
talking about, some point cost is likely to be required.
> Personally, as a GM, I find the character concept annoying. Every time he
> kills himself Heroically, I have to proofcheck his latest/greatest concept
> and make sure he isn't doing anything too unbalancing. Verify his Disads
> match the prior sheet where applicable. Character creation is the slow
> boring part of the system.
And that also is a matter of opinion that I don't share. I enjoy creating
characters some of the time, when I'm feeling inspired toward it. No, I
don't want to have to deal with someone doing this all the time, but if it's
going to happen often enough, I'm going to want it paid for and on the
character sheet. Waste of points in your game? Fine, I wouldn't do it in
your game that way. But it is a power that the character has that the other
characters don't, so I guess I'll have to charge for it.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
http://www.javaman.to/philosopher.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:36:19 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> *sigh*
>
> You are assuming that No Fringe must be either part of the base cost or a
> Power Advantage when in fact it is something between the two.
*sigh* right back atcha.
I haven't assumed anything. I read your statements I compared them to the
book. You are mistaken about something. I am simply asking you to pick
which one. The formula for Active Cost straight from the book is as
follows:
Active Cost = Base Cost x (1 + Advantages)
Up above you have stated again that No Fringe isn't part of the base cost
and you also say it isn't a Power Advantage. Both of these can be true if
you want to interpret the rules that way. But, what can't be true is that
if No Fringe isn't an Advantage or part of the base cost then it doesn't
have a place in the formula above and therefore isn't a part of the Active
Cost of the power. I can't believe that you really think that. You even
worked the above formula and added the points spent for No Fringe before
multiplying by (1 + Advantages). If aren't contradicting yourself then you
have rewritten the formula above to have something else in it. Something
that adds to Base Cost before being multiplied by (1 + Advantages). Once
again, Which is it?
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:48:45 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
- ----- Original Message -----
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
> TK is Ranged STR, remember.
Hate to interrupt, but I believe the point that is being made is that TK IS
more or less Ranged STR but it would be nice if it wasn't. Then a character
could buy the ability to lift larger masses and fit it within their
respective campaign limits on DCs and Active Points.
I have often disliked the new cost of Telekinesis for just that very point.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:02:08 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> >Question for people.
> >I have a PC that is looking to go with a Suppress against Mental
> >Defense. I was unsure if this is a viable option for Suppress or not.
> >Thoughts.
It's certainly a viable concept - a sort of "Psi Static" field that
fades when you switch it off.
> No problem, very effective in conjunction with a Mental attack, just two
> things to remember:
> 1. Mental Defense is a defense and thus the Suppress is halved.
While I agree that this is certainly a good way to rule, I believe that
technically the halving only applied to Adjustment powers. And Suppress
is a Standard Power.
> 2. Suppress is an attack power and thus cannot be used at the same time
> as any OTHER attack unless bought uncontrolled.
That's opening a can of worms ala the Great Linked Debate. Suffice it
to say that I see no reason that you couldn't fire off a Mind Control
and Ego Attack at the same time you fired off the Suppress - although
of course the Suppress would take effect last in such a case. (This
also assumes that the Suppress is BOECV - which may not be what the
original poster wanted).
Arguably, you COULD rule that the "Constant" nature of the power simply
means that you don't have to make an attack roll for subsequent phases.
I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow subsequent Mind Control
attacks, while maintaining the Suppress, as long as they were against
the same target. You would make an Attack Roll, and if you hit, then
you apply the Mind Control/EGO Attack. If you miss, you can still keep
the Suppress going.
YMMV.
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1999 22:13:19 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
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* "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
| I haven't assumed anything. I read your statements I compared them to the
| book. You are mistaken about something.
Read the FAQ, as previously cited. It includes an official ruling from
Hero Games that states that linear cost options for a power (the so-called
Adders or Add-ons) are *not* part of the base cost of the power.
Now, given the fact that an Advantage will advantage such Add-ons just as
much as the base power, the cost of the Advantage must be calculated
against the cost of the Add-on as well as the base power. That is,
(20 x (1 + 0.5)) + (10 x (1 + 0.5))
which is simplified to
(20 + 10) x (1 + 0.5)
and simplified further to
30 x (1 + 0.5)
because addition is commutative[1]. And I still get 45 Active Points for
No Fringe Invisibility with Zero End Cost.
I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken about something.
[1]Hooray! for New Math, New-ew-ew Math. It's so simple, so very simple,
that only a child can do it!
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1999 23:34:00 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
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* GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> on Thu, 24 Jun 1999
| While I agree that this is certainly a good way to rule, I believe that
| technically the halving only applied to Adjustment powers. And Suppress
| is a Standard Power.
Yes. And while it might seem unbalancing, remember that Suppressed Mental
Defense remains that way only as long as the user of Suppress spends END
for it. When the END stops the Suppress stops, unlike Adjustment Powers
that gradually recover.
[...]
| Arguably, you COULD rule that the "Constant" nature of the power simply
| means that you don't have to make an attack roll for subsequent phases.
| I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow subsequent Mind Control
| attacks, while maintaining the Suppress, as long as they were against the
| same target.
Maintaining a Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase
attack action (but not an attack roll) to maintain. IOW, you would not be
able to attack anyone, nevermind the same target, as long as you are
maintaining that Suppress.
Sorry, but that is how Continuous attacks work.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:58:49 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> Read the FAQ, as previously cited. It includes an official ruling from
> Hero Games that states that linear cost options for a power (the so-called
> Adders or Add-ons) are *not* part of the base cost of the power.
Read it. Searched it. Not there. As was already stated when you mentioned
it earlier. Mentioning a statement that never refers to Base Cost at any
time is rather pointless. Besides I wrote a textbook several years ago. If
I was arguing a point with someone it would be rather pointless to try to
back up my position with quotes from my own book. "Look right here, not
only am I saying X, I wrote it down!"
> Now, given the fact that an Advantage will advantage such Add-ons just as
> much as the base power, the cost of the Advantage must be calculated
> against the cost of the Add-on as well as the base power. That is,
> (20 x (1 + 0.5)) + (10 x (1 + 0.5))
> which is simplified to
> (20 + 10) x (1 + 0.5)
> and simplified further to
> 30 x (1 + 0.5)
> because addition is commutative[1]. And I still get 45 Active Points for
> No Fringe Invisibility with Zero End Cost.
Me too. You are just refusing to admit that No Fringe is part of the Base
Cost for the power. If it wasn't the formula would be wrong. Then again
you can always rewrite part of the book that doesn't suit you. Nothing
wrong with your stance afterall, just not according to Hoyle (whoever that
is).
BTW, while it is true that addition is commutative that property is not what
makes your above math accurate. Commutative Law merely states that A+B=B+A.
It is the Distributive Law that states that A x B + A x C = A x (B+C). I am
not a child but my elementary school experimented with New Math for the
first two years of my education then somebody woke up and realized what a
crime it was to experiment on six and seven year olds.
OOooo, campaign idea. Teacher who experiments on her 1st graders to enhance
their mental abilities with drugs and hypnotherapy. Everything is going
well until she triggers a latent mutant ability in several of her students.
Crimes commence, supers fighting kids, but powerful kids. Kids that have
crying screaming fits when they take BODY or more than a certain preset
amount of STUN.
> I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken about something.
Yeah, believing.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
>Maintaining a Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase
>attack action (but not an attack roll) to maintain. IOW, you would not be
>able to attack anyone, nevermind the same target, as long as you are
>maintaining that Suppress.
>
>Sorry, but that is how Continuous attacks work.
Can you site a spot where either of these is stated outright, Rat? It's
certainly not under Continuous, which I just looked at. In fact, it
references Powers, where under Constant powers it rather specifically says
you _don't_ need to use a half-phase. Are you flashing back to a prior
edition, perhaps?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:14:50 -0500
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: Mental Defense and other questions
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> Maintaining a Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase
> attack action (but not an attack roll) to maintain. IOW, you would not be
> able to attack anyone, nevermind the same target, as long as you are
> maintaining that Suppress.
>
> Sorry, but that is how Continuous attacks work.
Sorry, but that is _not_ how Continuous attacks work. A Continuous attack
works just like a Constant Power, as per the description of the Continuous
Advantage. Constant Powers do not even require a half-phase action to
maintain them only to use them initially(see pg 52 BBB Deluxe). Further
attacks are completely legal.
Alan
HeroRPG-owner@onelist.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 06:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Mucchiello <jmucchiello@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Serial Immortality
- --- James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> wrote:
> First of all: All I said is that your method didn't cover all cases.
> This is an ability that could be very important to the character
> conception, and give the player an advantage over everyone else.
That is what I don't see. Nobody but the character REALLY knows that
he is the same guy (or gal). Unless you have soul/mind/essence
detectors as part of the game, the new character, from the rest of the
world's point of few, is just as disconnected from the first character
as any other player's second character after the death of the first.
> Therefore, charging for it is far from unreasonable. If it gives no
> advantage, it's obviously worth no points. It seems to me that the
> ability to die and come back in new bodies again and again (within
> reason) is worth points, since it is not an ability that all the PC's
> will have, you obviously disagree.
But they do have that ability. When a PC dies, the player creates a
new character and continues playing. Or do you evict players whose
character has died from you campaign? The only difference is his
second character has no memory of the things character one knew.
> > You are supposed to model powers based on what
> > happens.
>
> Exactly, which is what I did: the original character pays, what,
> about 13 points for the ability to come back from the dead in a new
> body, while keeping experience earned and not starting from scratch,
> while matching the ability desired? Horror.
Who would start a new character from scratch? You are saying that just
because the player puts a 13 point power on his character sheet, I as
GM cannot force him to lose XP. Sounds munchkinnie to me. There is a
big difference between a 350 point character and a 250 + 100 XP
character. That is the reason most GMs do not allow new characters to
have all of their original XP. But for 13 CP you can get around this
little problem. Cute.
> As far as the power being gone: how do you draw that conclusion? It
> goes on the new character's sheet just like on the old one.
No, I meant if was one-shot. Now that that incarnation is dead, the
power is gone.
> > What happens is a character comes into existence with all of the
> > knowledge of the dead guy. Sounds like a KS to me.
>
> All of the knowledge of the dead guy is a series of skills and
> abilities that the character bought with points, whether from
> starting points or experience. If the character has 100 points in
> skills, say, 75 from experience, then letting him tie it all up with
> a 3 point KS doesn't work very well.
I can't believe that is what you think I meant. The 3 point KS is the
ability to remember the old character's memories, not his skills. If
skills are going to carry over he still has to pay for them. And who
says he can't be required to buy the skill higher than 3 points. Maybe
you can give a -1 to the skill roll for each incarnation removed the
memory is.
> Some skills would go away, true: it depends on what the player
> wanted. If all that is desired is to come back once with vague
> memories of the previous life, a KS is the way to go with GM's
> permission. If doing so often while keeping the same point total is
> wanted, 13 continues to be a small price to pay.
I still see this as a cheesy way to keep XP after death.
> If the GM is willing to let the new character be built on the same
> points as the old, yes, it becomes a waste of points. In the
> superhero genre, especially, where the character may very well come
> back to life on his or her own, this isn't much of a problem. But
> otherwise, which is what I was talking about, some point cost is
> likely to be required.
In a non-superhero world where coming back to life would be only for
the privledged few, it could just be a perk/talent.
> > Personally, as a GM, I find the character concept annoying. Every
> > time he kills himself Heroically, I have to proofcheck his
> > latest/greatest concept and make sure he isn't doing anything too
> > unbalancing. Verify his Disads match the prior sheet where
> > applicable. Character creation is the slow boring part of the
> > system.
>
> And that also is a matter of opinion that I don't share. I enjoy
> creating characters some of the time, when I'm feeling inspired
> toward it.
So do I. But with this player I may have to do more often than I'd
like and when I'm not inspired toward it.
> No, I don't want to have to deal with someone doing this all the
> time, but if it's going to happen often enough, I'm going to want it
> paid for and on the character sheet. Waste of points in your game?
> Fine, I wouldn't do it in your game that way.
Yes, you would. It's my game. Nyaah. :-)
> But it is a power that the character has that the other
> characters don't, so I guess I'll have to charge for it.
And how much do you charge the other players, when their characters
die, to come back into the game?
Joe
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Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 04:17 PM