Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 468
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 11:18 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #468
champ-l-digest Monday, July 26 1999 Volume 01 : Number 468
In this issue:
Re: Magic System Design - Looking for an Idea I like
Re: OIHID?
Hello again.
Re: Seattle Area "Sourcebook"
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Dark (Street) Champions PBEM
Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Denizens of San Angelo - Price Change
Re: encumbrance
Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:06:32
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Magic System Design - Looking for an Idea I like
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:10:03 -0400, Scott C. Nolan wrote:
>Now, I want the mages to pay that one point to keep spell acquisition from
>being too easy or frequent. But priests, not having to pay it, suddenly
>receive a bonus. I'd like some offsetting disadvantage for priests beyond
>the obvious (religious devotion). Any ideas?
Here are two:
1 - Have an additional Control Cost to reflect the fact that the
spells are No Roll to Change, 0 END, Fully Invisible, and Fully
Indirect, and one level of Hard to Dispel, for +4. Give these a -2
Limitation as it is mandatorily decided.
Thus for a 20 pt pool, your priest is going to cough up a base of 10
for the normal Control Cost, but an additional base of 40 for the extra
control. With no other Advantages or Limitations, he pays an extra 13
CP. Remember that if you have RSR, then that should not apply to the
extra.
2 - Have individual PS: Priest for each deity of the pantheon. The PS
for the character's patron should be higher than the others. If there's
just one deity, have a seperate PS: Priest for aspects thereof or
servants.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:08:44
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OIHID?
On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:46:51 -0700, Grant Enfield wrote:
>
>
>A while ago it came up on this list that Only In Hero ID should only be used
>for characters like Captain Marvell whose IDs are substantially different.
>(I think the book also uses Thor's hammer as an example of OIHID instead of
>a focus because he never loses it.) I've always bought energy projectors and
>form-changing bricks with OIHID powers (like the Human Torch or Colossus),
>but those earlier posts suggested that perhaps all their "hero form" powers
>should be linked to a base power (Torch's force field or Colossus's density
>increase or armor). Did I understand this correctly? It seems like it might
>be cheaper to link all your powers to one "defining" power than to just buy
>OIHID powers. (Although I did convert a character of mine, and the totals
>were only a few points different between the two methods.)
I disagree - if all powers are linked to one power, then they are all
vunerable to that power getting Suppressed, Drained, Transferred, or
Dispelled, which is not the case with OIHID.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:09:51 CDT
From: "Richard King" <baron_leo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hello again.
Hello, one and all.
I am back from a a long hiatus. I used to be known at the address of
baron@stlnet.com but that address is no more. Good to be back and I look
forward to sharing info and opinions with you all in the future.
R Kemp
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:42:01 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Seattle Area "Sourcebook"
In a message dated 7/25/99 6:26:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org writes:
> The book is comprehensive. It reminds me quite a bit of, well, San Angelo:
> City of Heroes. :)
Now that's a compliment. ;) I'll have to check this out.
Mark @ GRG
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:31:24 -0500
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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> * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Sat, 24 Jul 1999
> | Balistic shock can kill
>
> By definition, Stun damage *CANNOT* kill.
Niether does Ballistic Shock directly. It can cause muscle
spasms and loss of muscle control and when severe enough
can cause muscles to shut down. If the muscle happens to
be the heart, it can kill. The doctor who explained this to
me said that the cause of death is litterally heart failure, but
it is brought on by ballistic shock. Now the effects of these
of ballistic shock wear off within a few minutes. It seems a
stretch to add damage classes to fire arms when the damage
that is done recovers so quickly. By incresing the stun
multiplier you get roughly the same effect with a lower
chance of killing. Which makes sence to me for a game
where a characters deaths are supposed to be very rare. If
are free to interpret it differently in your campaign.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:55:24 +0000
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@inetnebr.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
If we need to get realistic ;) we could have a constitution based roll for when
someone takes large amounts of stun in one
whack... this could simulate heart failure in face of otherwise non fatal injury,
but it is hardly heroic let alone super heroic. In other words not in my games.
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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> * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Sat, 24 Jul 1999
> | Balistic shock can kill
>
> By definition, Stun damage *CANNOT* kill.
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> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
> Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jul 1999 17:12:24 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
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* Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
| Niether does Ballistic Shock directly. It can cause muscle spasms and
| loss of muscle control and when severe enough can cause muscles to shut
| down. If the muscle happens to be the heart, it can kill.
Thank you, I learned what systemic shock is some 20 years ago when I took
my first First Aid and Lifesaving course.
Systemic shock is *NOT* Stun damage. Systemic shock can kill; taking Stun
damage cannot, ever, under any circumstances, kill someone. A person could
be hammered to -1x10^128 Stun; he will not die from it. Which means that
Increased Stun Multiple doesn't even come close to simulating systemic
shock.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:32:28 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
<snip>
> The explanation I gave came from an emergency room Doctor. He said
> the trama was roughly equivelent for rounds with equivelent loads.
The
> difference was in the balistic shock effect. Balistic shock can
kill and doe
> do some harm to the body, but its effects are also easily recovered
from,
> so I interpret that be the stun component. The trama effect kills
more
> readily and takes a much longer time to recover from, so I
interpreted
> that to be the Body component. Now I have seen other documentation
> stating that hollow points killed on a higher average then standard
rounds
> but only one that broke down the effects. If you have a reference
that
> contridicts mine, I would gladly check it out.
The FBI did in-depth ballistics studies about 5 years ago, shortly
after a disastrous shoot-out in Florida. Others have been done. They
show a definitely larger wound channel from hollow point rounds. They
also show a larger _temporary_ wound cavity, where the wound shrinks
after the initial trauma, though some tearing occurs. This second is a
major cause of "ballistic shock".
You might also keep in mind that ballistic shock cannot be STUN
damage, because ballistic shock kills, and STUN damage does not. OTOH,
it isn't exactly BODY damage, either, as it heals so quickly.
Personally, I'd limit ballistic shock to realistic games. What I'd do
with it there, I don't know. Temporarily doubling the damage from
bullets _might_ not be a bad idea, with a healing rate of 1 BODY/Turn
for the additional damage, and STUN multiples adding +1 BODY for each
+1 STUN. It would probably dramatically improve the realism of guns in
your campaign.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:10:50 -0700
From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
Subject: AP w/ Martial Arts
Hey,
A player of mine wants to buy martial arts as Armor Piercing. How does one
do that ? Does he place the advantage on his STR and get all of his MA
attacks as AP? Do you apply the AP to the MA attack itself (ie apply the
advantage to the cost of the martial attack cost ... like a punch I think is
4 points) ? The end result is that if the Martial Punch would do 8d6 with
his strength added in then the player would like the 8d6 to be AP. Any help
would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jul 1999 20:49:02 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
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* "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
| A player of mine wants to buy martial arts as Armor Piercing. How does one
| do that ?
You buy Hand-to-Hand Attack or Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack with Armor
Piercing. The example from Ninja Hero pp47:
An example: Let's say a character has STR 15 and a slew of maneuver
giving him up to 7d6 damage. He can buy:
Example: Hand-to-Hand Attack, 4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2);
24 pts.
This will give him a 6d6 armor-piercing normal attack.
You might be asking yourself, why doesn't it give him 7d6? STR 15 is
3d6, plus 4d6 from H-to-H Attack equals 7d6, right? Well, that's wrong
-- in this case.
4d6 of H-to-H Attack is 12 points' worth of power (not counting the Armor
Piercing advantage). Therefore, the character, since he has not bought
Armor Piercing for his STR, can only add STR 12 to it -- for +2d6. Thus,
it's a 6d6 attack. If he were to buy Armor Piercing for his STR, he
could have his full 7d6.
If you do not want to do it this way, you should buy Armor Piercing for
Strength, plus Armor Piercing for the DCs of each maneuver you want to make
Armor Piercing. So, taking the 15 STR Example, you would pay 7 points for
AP for Strength. Then, say you have two maneuvers that you want to make
AP; the first adds 2d6 (10 points), the second adds 4d6 (20 points). You
would spend 5 points to make the first maneuver AP and 10 points to make
the second maneuver AP. You should also spend the points to make the AP on
Advantage on the maneuvers cost 0 Endurance; that's another 7 points.
I think you will be better off doing it the way Ninja Hero suggests.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:42:44 -0600
From: Trevor Gunther <gunthert@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Dark (Street) Champions PBEM
Anyone interested, we are lookinh for two (or three) new players for a
Dark Champions game set in Hudson City. Although the game will deal with
the seamier side of the superhero world the characters are still
expected to be heroic.
Starting pts 100+150 in disadvantages
Damage 6 - 10 damage classes
Defences 12 - 20
Res def 6 - 10
Combat values 5 - 10
Skill rolls 8 - 14
Dexterity 15 - 24
Speed 3 - 5
Attacks pts min - 50
Defences pts min - 20
Characters should be of a low power level as compared to other
campaigns. Characters may range from normal detectives to martial
artists to low powered magicians. In this campaign, villans will be
armed with machine guns more often then laser blasters. Hudson City has
a little of everything, so characters based on detectives, mages, even
cops will all have more than enough to do.
Almost all of the villans and NPC heroes will be taken from the Dark
Champions books, very little will be used from the Classic Campaigns, as
such the player characters are expected to be weaker than most. (A rule
of thumb, any hero should be able to take out four or five gang members
armed with knives clubs and pistols without breaking a sweat, however if
you arm them with AK-47s the character may want to be a little more
careful.)
Characters who fit this mold from comics and existing products include;
Batman (beginning), Nightwing, Green Arrow, Daredevil, Spiderman,
Powerman and Ironfist or Crusader, Green Dragon, Red Rapier etc.
If the character is a well trained normal, you can take the normal char
max without fear of being too weak (stats wise). Gadgeteers and
magicians should be built with multipowers (as I do not like VPPs at
all). Characters do not have to be "dark or anti-heroes" just those you
find on the streets as oppossed to flying through the air fighting giant
killer robots or defending the world against alien invasions.
Stop sign and hour glass powers should be cleared through me. Major
powers such as invisibility, teleportation and telekinesis would have be
the basis of the character.
Although it will be Dark Champions, and deal with darker side of the
street; drugs, child / spousal abuse, prostitution, those who want to
flaunt the laws will be dealt with as criminals by the police and other
characters. If a character has to kill a villan to save the city, I can
live with that, but if every villan you come across ends up dead, the
game will be pretty boring very quickly.
I'm looking for concepts right now the best concepts will be invited to
submitt full characters and the best will be choosen. I will accept
concepts up until July 28th.
Trevor
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:59:39 -0700
From: "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net>
Subject: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
If you have a multipower slot that has the limitation Extra Time,
does this stop you from using your other slots until the proper amount
of time has elapsed, or can you use your other slots until the other
power is "ready" ??
For example, if I have a 30 pt. pool with a 6d6 EB (Fireball spell
or something) that requires Extra Time: 1 Turn, can I have another slot
using 30 pts (15/15 FF or something) running until the 6d6 EB is
ready?? Or, in this particular example, is the mage a sitting duck
until one turn has passed?
Thanks for your time & help,
Coleslaw
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jul 1999 22:49:53 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
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* "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
| For example, if I have a 30 pt. pool with a 6d6 EB (Fireball spell
| or something) that requires Extra Time: 1 Turn, can I have another slot
| using 30 pts (15/15 FF or something) running until the 6d6 EB is
| ready??
No. You cannot activate any other powers while you are spending your Extra
Time to activate a power.
No. Once you change the point allocation to a slot in a Multipower, you
effectively have a different power than you had before. This will also
nullify your prep time. That is, if you decide to switch some points into
your Force Field slot, that changes your EB slot and you have to start over
again.
| Or, in this particular example, is the mage a sitting duck until one turn
| has passed?
You always have the option of canceling the activation of the power.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:12:02 EDT
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Denizens of San Angelo - Price Change
The following product has price and size change:
Title: Denizens of San Angelo
GRG Stock #: H302
ISBN: 1-890305-14-6
Page Count: 96 pages
SRP: $16.00
Release: October '99
has been changed to:
Title: Denizens of San Angelo
GRG Stock #: H302
ISBN: 1-890305-14-6
Page Count: 64 pages
SRP: $12.00
Release: October '99
Please update your product list accordingly. Thank you.
Mark @ GRG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:37:06 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: encumbrance
>
>I have never liked the encumbrance chart for several reasons. For a much
>better way to deal with encumbrance, see Geoff Spear's web site (Geoff,
>where is it now). He has come up with a way to base encumbrance off from a
>characters "Casual Strength."
http://www.shalott.com/hero/houserule/rules/encumbrance.asp
>We adapted Geoffs method in our group years ago, with one minor exception.
>If you are loaded down, we reduce running, rather than charging more END for
>running. This may not be entirely realistic, but it is more of a "real"
>penalty, game-wise.
This discussion sounds familiar, Mike. :)
My logic was that being heavily loaded didn't stop you from running fast,
it just made it a lot more exhausting. Since I also use combat penalties
for exhaustion (penalties when below 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 END, see site for
details), this quickly becomes a combat penalty. I do see Mike's point, though.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:11:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
At 06:59 PM 7/25/1999 -0700, Mr. Cup O. Slaw wrote:
> If you have a multipower slot that has the limitation Extra Time,
>does this stop you from using your other slots until the proper amount
>of time has elapsed, or can you use your other slots until the other
>power is "ready" ??
> For example, if I have a 30 pt. pool with a 6d6 EB (Fireball spell
>or something) that requires Extra Time: 1 Turn, can I have another slot
>using 30 pts (15/15 FF or something) running until the 6d6 EB is
>ready?? Or, in this particular example, is the mage a sitting duck
>until one turn has passed?
I don't think the HSR says it explicitly, but as far as I can see the
character would have to keep the Multipower on that slot while it's
"warming up." At least, I'd certainly rule that way.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:20:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 02:55 PM 7/25/1999 +0000, Lance Dyas wrote:
>If we need to get realistic ;) we could have a constitution based roll for
when
>someone takes large amounts of stun in one
>whack... this could simulate heart failure in face of otherwise non fatal
injury,
>but it is hardly heroic let alone super heroic. In other words not in my
games.
Actually, that wouldn't be a bad "optional rule" for realistic games, or
even for realistic situations in more cinematic games. If it doesn't get
snuck into the Fifth Edition Rulebook, maybe in an updated version of Dark
Champions, or some future Almanac or something. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:22:42 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 05:12 PM 7/25/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>Systemic shock is *NOT* Stun damage. Systemic shock can kill; taking Stun
>damage cannot, ever, under any circumstances, kill someone. A person could
>be hammered to -1x10^128 Stun; he will not die from it. Which means that
>Increased Stun Multiple doesn't even come close to simulating systemic
>shock.
I'm wondering, now: what, in real-world terms, *is* STUN damage?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:08:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
At 08:10 PM 7/25/1999 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
>Hey,
>
>A player of mine wants to buy martial arts as Armor Piercing. How does one
>do that ? Does he place the advantage on his STR and get all of his MA
>attacks as AP? Do you apply the AP to the MA attack itself (ie apply the
>advantage to the cost of the martial attack cost ... like a punch I think is
>4 points) ? The end result is that if the Martial Punch would do 8d6 with
>his strength added in then the player would like the 8d6 to be AP. Any help
>would greatly be appreciated.
I've generally allowed it with AP applied to the STR, and extra damage
from Martial Arts pro-rated for the Advantage. Semi-Officially, though
(that is, consulting TUMA), the character must buy AP as a "naked"
Advantage on the damage from the Martial Arts maneuver. (At least, IIRC --
others may have better-cited information.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jul 1999 11:17:13 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
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* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
| I'm wondering, now: what, in real-world terms, *is* STUN damage?
In real-world terms, minor cuts, scrapes, bruises and such that you shrug
off quickly.
In heroic terms, you could also lump in more seemingly serious injuries
such as broken noses, sprained ankles and such.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
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