Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 470
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 1:51 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #470
champ-l-digest Tuesday, July 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 470
In this issue:
Changes to Heromaker?
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Silver Surfer and the Heralds ???
Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
Re: power question
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
Re: Body vs. Stun (was Stun from Killing Attacks)
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Clairsentience: Precognition/Retrocognition
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
RE: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Changes to Heromaker?
Re: Changes to Heromaker?
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
RE: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:28:01 -0700
From: Grant Enfield <enfield@asu.edu>
Subject: Changes to Heromaker?
Since 5th Edition is coming out in the foreseeable future, does anyone know
how (if there's a way) to modify Heromaker so the power costs and whatnot
will reflect the new rules?
thanks
grant
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:50:54 +0000
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@inetnebr.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
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hunsaker wrote:
> I am new to the list, and play AD&D mostly, but have such a modified AD&D game, it plays like HERO! Anyway, my input is the possible use of an idea from AD&D, where stun damage is taken from "non-lethal" attacks, like punching and such. However, I say "non-lethal" because such attacks can eventually kill you in AD&D, here is how it works.
> Every 4 points of stun damage you suffer, means 1 of those 4 is not actually stun, but real. You take the total stun damage suffered in a fight, at the end of the fight, and divide by 4, dropping fractions, this is how much of that stun remains as real damage.
In Hero that difference is basically subsumed in the difference between a normal and a killing attack though the ratio is effectively more like 1 in 3.5 the similarity exists in the basic mechanics one D6 of a normal attack will get you approx. 1 point of body.
I just thought I'd point out the mechanics parallel. I love comparative gaming ;)
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:13:30 +0200
From: Black Bishop <BISHOP@mail.sirnet.it>
Subject: Silver Surfer and the Heralds ???
I was curious... I seeked in EVERY write up characters site of the Circle
of Heroes, the Hero games site links and the Mozilla section ! But I was
not able to find Silver Surfer write up or any of the Heralds I mean
FireLord, Gabriel, Nova and Terrax... nothing of nothing...
In our campaign a PNC was invested of the cosmic power and I really don't
know how simulate it... I though about
Cosmic Power Pool : VPP 60 Pts active No skill Roll 0 Phase (like in the BBB)
TOT PTS: 150
This character is made of pure energy so I gave her too :
Absorbition 4D6 Physical/Energetical to Cosmic Power (any other idea is
apprencieted... I don't like it... I though perhapse STR and CON)
25% Damage reduction Energetic Physical ('cause she is solid energy... she
has not internal organs and so)
Well... the questions r : have you any write up of the Galactus's heralds ?
Have you any idea for that NPC ?
thank ya all
BB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:43:58 -0400
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Subject: Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
Bob Cahill wrote:
> Hello all!
> I recently finished putting together a mostly random mutant generator.
> The webpage http://www.starwind.net/hsmg will allow you to put in some
> numbers and get a random character creator.
>
> It should work in Netscape and MSIE 4 and higher. Viewing and printing
> works better in Netscape than MSIE.
>
> Please let me know what you think. And send any suggestions or comments
> my way hsmg@starwind.net
When I tried it, it got stuck during the reload. I don't know if
this was a malfunction of the code or a problem with the network, but I
crashed out after about 5 minutes.
- --
Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:37:29 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> * "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net> on Sun, 25 Jul 1999
> | For example, if I have a 30 pt. pool with a 6d6 EB (Fireball spell
> | or something) that requires Extra Time: 1 Turn, can I have another
> | slot using 30 pts (15/15 FF or something) running until the 6d6 EB is
> | ready??
>
> No. You cannot activate any other powers while you are spending your
> Extra Time to activate a power.
In fact this is NOT the case, although I will concede that it is often
the way it tends to be (wrongly) interpreted. If I have a series of
powers such as Force Field, Flight, and Shapeshift that all have the
Extra Time limitation, I CAN activate the Flight and the Shapeshift
while I'm spending time to activate the Force Field. Indeed, I can
activate all three at once - it will simply take longer for them to
"turn on".
The exception is for a power that requires an Attack Roll - you can't
make any other attacks while you're waiting for that to turn on.
(As an aside - I would suggest that this also applied to a power that
would NORMALLY require an Attack Roll but doesn't in this circumstance -
for example, an Aid used on yourself).
> No. Once you change the point allocation to a slot in a Multipower, you
> effectively have a different power than you had before. This will also
> nullify your prep time. That is, if you decide to switch some points
> into your Force Field slot, that changes your EB slot and you have to
> start over again.
This, however, I agree with. The same logic in Ninja Hero is used to
state that if you have a Multipower Aid and you switch slots, you
immediately lose all benefits of the slot that was previously activated.
> | Or, in this particular example, is the mage a sitting duck until one
> | turn has passed?
>
> You always have the option of canceling the activation of the power.
Given that it IS very common to view "Extra Time" as "I can't do
anything until this time elapses", perhaps a new limitation that
reflects this is in order. It would, in general, be more limiting than
Extra Time is.
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:42:55 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 08:10 PM 7/25/1999 -0700, David W. Salmon wrote:
> >Hey,
> >
> >A player of mine wants to buy martial arts as Armor Piercing. How does
> >one do that ? Does he place the advantage on his STR and get all of
> >his MA attacks as AP? Do you apply the AP to the MA attack itself (ie
> >apply the advantage to the cost of the martial attack cost ... like a
> >punch I think is 4 points) ? The end result is that if the Martial
> >Punch would do 8d6 with his strength added in then the player would
> >like the 8d6 to be AP. Any help would greatly be appreciated.
>
> I've generally allowed it with AP applied to the STR, and extra
> damage from Martial Arts pro-rated for the Advantage. Semi-Officially,
> though (that is, consulting TUMA), the character must buy AP as a
> "naked" Advantage on the damage from the Martial Arts maneuver. (At
> least, IIRC -- others may have better-cited information.)
Personally, I use the time honoured philosophy of asking "what is the
effect?" rather than all these semi-official and (IMHO) potentially
abusive constructs. Just buy HA with the appropriate advantage and call
it "Armour Piercing Martial Arts". STR can be added the same way it
would otherwise add to an HKA.
That is, for AP only (a +1/2 advantage), for every 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 points
of STR, add 1 DC to the HA. A 4d6 AP HA with 15 STR thus becomes a
6d6 AP HA.
(Note that this rapidly shows up the problems in the cost of HA; I can
only recommend my own house rule for HA - 5 points per d6, but it costs
no END).
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:03:54 -0400
From: "Beren" <beren@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
> Please let me know what you think. And send any suggestions or comments
> my way hsmg@starwind.net
<< When I tried it, it got stuck during the reload. I don't know if
this was a malfunction of the code or a problem with the network, but I
crashed out after about 5 minutes.>>
It worked fine for me. Interesting results.
Lisa
beren@unforgettable.com
http://roswell.fortunecity.com/daniken/79
ICQ: Berengiere (9062561)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:31:04 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: power question
At 05:33 PM 7/26/1999 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
[snip]
>This could maybe be done with aid/suppress combinations, but assuming I
don't want to create such combinations, what _should_ this sort of effect
be worth? I'm figuring 25 points or so, but...
>
>aid: 1d6(5), all attacks (+2), constant (+1), persistant (+1) (25),
self-only(-1/2), always-on (-1/2) = 12. +Max is cheaper...
>suppress: 1.5d6(7), all attacks (+2), affects incoming attacks (+1?),
persistant (+1)(35), always-on (-1/2) = 23.
To round it out, you can add 1 Level of Growth (5), Persistent (+1),
Always On (-1/2) = 7. That yields a total of 42 points.
Put the whole into an Elemental Control (you'd get a 5 point Pool, with
the Growth, but can get Always On for the Pool since all Powers have that
Limitation), and the cost goes down to 36.
With various other factors, I might give it a bit more of a "package
bonus" than the strict EC rules would normally allow, so 30 points per
level would probably not be too outlandish.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:55:30 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 11:17 AM 7/26/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
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>* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
>| I'm wondering, now: what, in real-world terms, *is* STUN damage?
>
>In real-world terms, minor cuts, scrapes, bruises and such that you shrug
>off quickly.
And these can knock you out without serious, long-term physical damage?
I don't know of any specific cases where this has happened.
I'm with what someone else (I forget who) said about it: STUN and BODY
are just game terms meant to simulate what happens in the fiction these
games are meant to represent, but not what happens in reality. The HERO
System is great for simulating fictional combat, but it really doesn't come
very close to truly realistic injuries at all. So trying to define STUN
and BODY in real-world terms is an exercise in meaninglessness.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:18:41 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
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* Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
| Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
| would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
| the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:21:17 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
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* GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
| In fact this is NOT the case, although I will concede that it is often
| the way it tends to be (wrongly) interpreted. If I have a series of
| powers such as Force Field, Flight, and Shapeshift that all have the
| Extra Time limitation, I CAN activate the Flight and the Shapeshift
| while I'm spending time to activate the Force Field. Indeed, I can
| activate all three at once - it will simply take longer for them to
| "turn on".
Really. I'll have to look at that again. If you're right, then it is we
(my group) that has been doing it wrong for-practically-ever.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:27:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
On 27 Jul 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
> | Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
> | would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
> | the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
>
> Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
as to when you recover.
J
"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
------------------------------
Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:34:38 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
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* "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
| I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
| says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
| as to when you recover.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, my point exactly. The book says "when". It does not say "if". Even
if you are -1x10^128 Stun, you will, eventually, recover.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:48:02 +0000
From: Lance Dyas <lancelot@inetnebr.com>
Subject: Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
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Also worked fine for me
"Stephen B. Mann" wrote:
> Bob Cahill wrote:
> > Hello all!
> > I recently finished putting together a mostly random mutant generator.
> > The webpage http://www.starwind.net/hsmg will allow you to put in some
> > numbers and get a random character creator.
> >
> > It should work in Netscape and MSIE 4 and higher. Viewing and printing
> > works better in Netscape than MSIE.
> >
> > Please let me know what you think. And send any suggestions or comments
> > my way hsmg@starwind.net
>
> When I tried it, it got stuck during the reload. I don't know if
> this was a malfunction of the code or a problem with the network, but I
> crashed out after about 5 minutes.
>
> --
>
> Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
> SUNY Learning Network http://sln.suny.edu/sln
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:08:46 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Body vs. Stun (was Stun from Killing Attacks)
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
> > <snip>They are less than perfect
> > simulations.
>
> True. But, then, what simulation is? P-) (my hair is rather long at
the
> moment, and tends to hang over my face a bit)
No simulation is perfect. That's why I keep using this one. If one
was, I'd use it for realistic games.:)
<snip>
> > Nevertheless, you can expect a great deal of arguing about whether
or
> > not a broken finger, or broken nose, or a nasty razor cut, are
BODY or
> > STUN. Guess what? They're neither; they're real.
>
> Real things that happen during games and can have useful effects on
the
> running of those games.
I think you mean "Simulations of real things that happen during
games....":)
> And therefore completely appropriate things for
> discussion in game terms. Different views of handling those things
is a
> perfectly reasonable thing to present, as long as it does not become
too
> argumentative. I thought this was part of the point of the list, but
the
> tone of your last statement seems to imply otherwise.
Not at all. I didn't intend to suppress any discusion. However, at the
time I wrote that, I expected at least a few people to argue about
whether or not X really was/was not BODY/STUN. Such an argument would
be silly, but they are not uncommon on this list. I was only
commenting upon the argumentative characteristics that this list
sometimes brings out in its members.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:13:32 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net>
<snip>
> It seems a little extreme to increase the both the damage class and
> the stun multiplier. That's an additional 17 points for a 20 pint
attack
> and 20 points for a 25 point attack. That turns a, 8 Str Min gun
into
> a 15 Str Min gun. Especially since the effect is so short lived. Of
> course if you ruled that this only effected Non Central NPCs it
> would go along way to giveing the cinematic effect of the PCs
> mowing down large numbers of agents with only one hit each but
> having the main villian take several rounds to bring down.
When I say "realistic", I mean it. Not "heroic", but "Your player got
shot with a .357 Magnum Hydra-Shock round. Being completely average,
he has about a 95% chance of being taken out of the fight, and has a
significant chance of dying, even with medical attention. Hospital
visit time."
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:01:50 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> I was doing a little research this morning, and came across this little
> tidbit on the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com).
> To soon be added to the growing list of classic television programs
> being remade as movies is none other than "Gilligan's Island." Little
> specific information is available aside from Brian Dennehy as the Skipper,
> and Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Mary Ann. (I was even unable to identify the
> producer and director -- but these two cast members, at least, don't give
> me the kind of misgivings I felt when I learned that Will Smith had been
> cast as James West in the film that will do for his career what "Ishtar"
> did for Dustin Hoffman's.)
I'll just stay completly off-topic. While Wild, Wild West was a poorly
executed film, I didn't have a problem with the casting. The film
itself makes a good outline for a convention game. Linear plot, action,
and just enough opportunities for role-playing to throw off suspicion.
> (This does kind of relate to this list, BTW, in that I think that
> "Gilligan's Island" would make an interesting setting for a published HERO
> System game. Once, when I was gaming in Salem, someone threw together a
> Gilligan's Island one-shot game using the HERO System, and while I wasn't
> able to participate in it, I did hear stories about it afterward about how
> much fun it was.)
Now how many people would want to see Muppet Hero?
- -Mark Lemming
"I am not a shrimp. I am a KING PRAWN!" -Pele the Prawn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:11:00 -0500
From: Russ Harper <comix@radiks.net>
Subject: Re: Hero System Mutant Generator
"Stephen B. Mann" wrote:
>
> When I tried it, it got stuck during the reload. I don't know if
> this was a malfunction of the code or a problem with the network, but I
> crashed out after about 5 minutes.
>
Worked fine for me. Nice effort, Bob!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:15:49 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <christopherrt@home.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>> | Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
>> | would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
>> | the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
>>
>> Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
>
>I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
>says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
>as to when you recover.
As a house rule I have always treated the stun chart as starting with CON,
not 10 (so you are reduced to post 12 recoveries when you go to -CON in
stun, not -10) then in 10 point steps. The other slight change is to use
the time chart rather than GM's option, it just goes down the list as I
believe Ross was doing there.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:48:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Clairsentience: Precognition/Retrocognition
> From: "Mr. Cup O. Slaw" <coleslaw1@wa.freei.net>
> I also thought I could just throw a limitation on the
> Precognition/Retrocognition to make it "only in the past" or "only in
> the future" but was not quite sure if that was correct. Thanks for the
> quick reply.
>
> P.S. What would you make that limitation worth??
>
Not very much. I read a story once where a time-viewer supposedly existed,
and had a minimum viewing range of 100 years or more from the present.
A professor discovered that it was a fraud and the scenes from the past
were made up. The problem was that the time viewer couldn't see that
FAR into the past, but could see the more recent stuff.
"How long ago is the past ? Five seconds ? A quarter of a second ?"
Thus they actually had a machine that could see what was happening at the
moment anywhere on earth, meaning there was no such thing as privacy or
secrets. The people running the machine had to present it as they did.
(Actually, the real problem here was that the machine had 'space' clairvoyance
as well as 'temporal' clairvoyance and did not have to be at the same
location as what it was viewing.....)
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:52:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>
> > * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
> > | Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
> > | would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
> > | the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
> >
> > Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
>
> I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
> says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
> as to when you recover.
>
>
There is the little matter of starving to death....
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:56:31 -0400
From: "Johnson, Adam" <AJohnson@clariion.com>
Subject: RE: Stun from Killing Attacks
Just out of curiosity...
Has anyone actually computed how long the recovery would be in days/hours/minutes/seconds? (Assuming a SPD 2, REC 4 normal...)
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Adam Johnson
Product Support -- Head Lab Resident Area Tech (LabRAT)
ajohnson@clariion.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------
- -----Original Message-----
From: Curt Hicks [mailto:exucurt@exu.ericsson.se]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 July, 1999 11:53
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>
> > * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
> > | Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
> > | would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
> > | the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
> >
> > Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
>
> I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
> says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
> as to when you recover.
>
>
There is the little matter of starving to death....
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Filksinger writes:
> When I say "realistic", I mean it. Not "heroic", but "Your player got
> shot with a .357 Magnum Hydra-Shock round. Being completely average,
> he has about a 95% chance of being taken out of the fight, and has a
> significant chance of dying, even with medical attention. Hospital
> visit time."
Ugh. I was afraid this discussion might have to do with hydrostatic shock. Folx, hydrostatic shock is basically a myth as far as causing damage to people; the only part of the body rigid enough for hydrostatic shock to matter is the insides of the skull.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:09:36 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
> Just out of curiosity...
>
> Has anyone actually computed how long the recovery would be in
days/hours/minutes/seconds? (Assuming a SPD 2, REC 4 normal...)
If you're talking about how long it takes someone to recover from being
knocked to GM's option: No, because the target is at GM's option, and can
wake up anytime the GM sees fit. It does note "a long time", somewhere, and
I would hope the GM would have it make sense for the injury, though. I've
still joked about the villain popping up again because he's at GM's option,
though it's never happened (-;
I suppose you could continue down the time chart or some such, every 10 Stun
(or multiple of X if that is used) moving it up to the next one.
Sorry if you were asking about something else.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:24:55 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
> >* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
> >| I'm wondering, now: what, in real-world terms, *is* STUN damage?
> >
> >In real-world terms, minor cuts, scrapes, bruises and such that you shrug
> >off quickly.
>
> And these can knock you out without serious, long-term physical damage?
> I don't know of any specific cases where this has happened.
> I'm with what someone else (I forget who) said about it: STUN and BODY
> are just game terms meant to simulate what happens in the fiction these
> games are meant to represent, but not what happens in reality. The HERO
> System is great for simulating fictional combat, but it really doesn't
come
> very close to truly realistic injuries at all. So trying to define STUN
> and BODY in real-world terms is an exercise in meaninglessness.
No, not really. Trying to have a hard & fast definition is coming close to
meaningless: after all, when Rat presented his view on the subject, he also
had the bit with the "in Heroic games" the injury might be worse than the
aboved described, because Heroes have more resilience and get by with what
should be incapacitating injuries more readily (somehow). So it has a great
dependency on what type of game you want to run, and who's running.
But saying that it is "an exercise in meaninglessness" is incorrect. It is
an exercise in drama. It is much more interesting, for those who care to, to
describe the actual effects of damage: he broke your nose, and blood flies
everywhere, etc. Knowing what type of damage is Stun and what type of damage
is counted as Body for the game helps with these descriptions. It is little
different from knowing what type of special effects are allowed in a game
for your Energy Blast and describing them appropriately.
I keep seeing or hearing comments about Hero's "unrealistic" qualities of
late. So far, I'm unconvinced of this. It is certainly abstract, but it
still seems to me that by using the optional damage rules (in this case) and
careful selection of stats and abilities, you could get a pretty fair
reality simulation. Why would you want to play normal people when you can
play heroes, wizards, and superbeings? You got me there ;)
Still, it might be worth exploring, though one person's idea of "reality" is
often different from another's, even when both are sane.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:37:01 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Hmm, I seem to have missed Filk's post. Ah, well.
> > When I say "realistic", I mean it. Not "heroic", but "Your player got
> > shot with a .357 Magnum Hydra-Shock round. Being completely average,
> > he has about a 95% chance of being taken out of the fight, and has a
> > significant chance of dying, even with medical attention. Hospital
> > visit time."
An excellent example of tweaking stats to achieve realism! If the character
really is "completely average", or is a throwaway character or the hero's
friend who gets killed, he should probably have about a Body of 5. If I
remember right, the .357 Magnum would do a minimum of 2 Body, which to many
hit locations does 3 or even 4 Body, a Disabling wound. It could also cause
bleeding, which would cause death pretty quickly. And this is all assuming
minimum damage. If you rolled higher, or simply assumed average damage
(which I'm not sure is 4 or 5 for this weapon) for all weapons, things get
much worse.
Sorry, still on my "Hero can be realistic (or at least brutal)" kick... 5
Body may actually be too brutal to be realistic: statistics would need to be
analyzed.
> Ugh. I was afraid this discussion might have to do with hydrostatic
shock. Folx, hydrostatic shock is basically a myth as far as causing damage
to people; the only part of the body rigid enough for hydrostatic shock to
matter is the insides of the skull.
It wasn't: your previous post was the first time it was mentioned that I
saw. The shock was described as "systemic shock", or something like that, of
which I am still unclear on the definition, but it didn't sound like it was
what I've heard hydrostatic shock to be. I have no idea what a Hydra-Shock
round is, though.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:56:21 EDT
From: HeroGames@aol.com
Subject: Re: Changes to Heromaker?
In a message dated 7/26/99 10:29:19 PM, enfield@asu.edu writes:
>Since 5th Edition is coming out in the foreseeable future, does anyone
>know
>
>how (if there's a way) to modify Heromaker so the power costs and whatnot
>
>will reflect the new rules?
>
>
There isn't any way within the HeroMaker software to handle the 5th Edition=20
changes. We aren't planning a new version of the software.
However, there will be a Hero System 5th Edition template update for HERO=20
Creator/Creation Workshop; that will be free to current owners.
=97 Steve Peterson, Hero Games=20
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:59:30 -0700
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Changes to Heromaker?
> There isn't any way within the HeroMaker software to handle the 5th
Edition
> changes. We aren't planning a new version of the software.
>
> However, there will be a Hero System 5th Edition template update for HERO
> Creator/Creation Workshop; that will be free to current owners.
I don't suppose there is any chance of a discount for those poor owners of
the HeroMaker software to get Creation Workshop or Hero Creator?
James
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:14:54 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <christopherrt@home.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>> > When I say "realistic", I mean it. Not "heroic", but "Your player got
>> > shot with a .357 Magnum Hydra-Shock round. Being completely average,
>> > he has about a 95% chance of being taken out of the fight, and has a
>> > significant chance of dying, even with medical attention. Hospital
>> > visit time."
For the life of me I don't understand why people post like this. In the
rules there are hit locations, they are very handy for representing this
sort of thing. Lets see here, minimum attack of 2 BOD, that means you
barely clipped the guy with a shard of your bullet that broke up in flight
(postulating how a gun would do minimum damage). Do you think that shold
kill someone? I'm sorry but there is no handgun that has a 95% chance of
killing someone every shot, if I shot your finger off with the Avenger 30mm
gatling cannon on an A-10 you STILL only lost a finger. The size and power
of the bullet does not matter nearly as much as where you get shot.
If you use hit locations, disabling, and impairing you will rip people
apart. The thing people seem to miss is that hardly EVER does someone die
instantaneously on the spot from a lethal attack. Unless the damage was so
greivous to remove a lot of vital tissue or crush it into paste, you bleed
to death or die over a matter of minutes or seconds. In other words... you
are below 0 BOD and bleeding to death. Using the bleeding rules, this can
be rather unpleasently fast, and is an example of how if you use all the
optional damage rules, Hero is very lethal and very believable.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:12:35 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Extra Time & Multipower Slots
GAZZA wrote:
> In fact this is NOT the case, although I will concede that it is often
> the way it tends to be (wrongly) interpreted. If I have a series of
> powers such as Force Field, Flight, and Shapeshift that all have the
> Extra Time limitation, I CAN activate the Flight and the Shapeshift
> while I'm spending time to activate the Force Field. Indeed, I can
> activate all three at once - it will simply take longer for them to
> "turn on".
From the HSR description of Extra Time, it doesn't seem like it would
take any longer for them to "turn on"; the startup times would run in
parallel.
> Given that it IS very common to view "Extra Time" as "I can't do
> anything until this time elapses", perhaps a new limitation that
> reflects this is in order. It would, in general, be more limiting than
> Extra Time is.
It seems to me that Concentration would probably fit the bill here.
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:38:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Christopher Taylor writes:
> If you use hit locations, disabling, and impairing you will rip people
> apart. The thing people seem to miss is that hardly EVER does someone die
> instantaneously on the spot from a lethal attack. Unless the damage was so
> greivous to remove a lot of vital tissue or crush it into paste, you bleed
> to death or die over a matter of minutes or seconds.
And the amount of vital tissue which needs to be removed to kill instantly is pretty extreme. Humans can live for a little while missing the torso below the waist (4-5d killing to the gut), and even remain briefly conscious. Of course, without super-medicine, they're going to die and you can't do anything about it, but requiring 10 body to the head or vitals, or 20 body in the remainder of the torso (or 40 body to the limbs...), to _instantly_ kill someone, isn't really out of line.
One thing I've considered (more for specific characters than as a general rule) is giving +1 defense vs body for every 2 body damage already taken. This means you can't easily chop someone to ribbons with 1 pip killing attacks.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:50:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > > * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Mon, 26 Jul 1999
> > > | Considering the fact that a person taken to -1x10^128+20 stun
> > > | would require an artificial means of support to keep them alive for
> > > | the 2.5x10^127+5 recoveries it would take to get back to 0 stun.
> > >
> > > Show me where in the BBB it says any such thing.
> >
> > I'll show you were it *doesn't*...there's a little chart in there that
> > says if you're under -30(?) STUN, you are in the land of GMO - GM's Option
> > as to when you recover.
>
> There is the little matter of starving to death....
...which is completely moot since if you're under -30 STUN you're not
going to be unconscious for long enough, and if you're over -30 STUN the
Gamemaster *decides* (hence the term GM's Option) whether you're out long
enough to starve to death or not.
J
"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
------------------------------
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