Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 474
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 6:47 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #474
champ-l-digest Wednesday, July 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 474
In this issue:
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Defensive Strike ?
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Defensive Strike ?
jammers
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Defensive Strike ?
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
RE: Stun from Killing Attacks
Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
Re: Chupacabras
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 28 Jul 1999 11:35:07 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* avargas@netzero.net on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
| Rat is right, that is the way to do it
Not me, Bruce Harlick.
| Rat's bit about how STR adds to an AP attack is a little wierd though.
Again, not me, Bruce Harlick.
All that came straight out of Ninja Hero.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3nyMrgl+vIlSVSNkRAhaqAKDZoXEl80tlNuENgCx4QEGqN48y8gCdFGCs
1ls1HS6ov0V7YVtvYVbuz2w=
=bFFQ
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Jul 1999 11:36:53 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
| You obviously didn't read my origanal post completely. I gave the
| character a recovery every second, of every minute of every hour of every
| day of every year. It takes a person with a 4 recovery 1x10^119 years to
| recover. So unless they said character has full life support, they are
| dead long before they can recover the lost stun.
Nope. GMO means you recover and wake up when the GM says you do... which
depending on the campaign could be five minutes from "now".
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3nyOVgl+vIlSVSNkRAlLSAKCVfQoDnFGLjLbPoygY1cevfjJFoQCgx98A
zcEZHjksRg8qD2re2kL7aiI=
=9f0r
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Filksinger writes:
>
> Really? 20 BODY can completely _disintegrate_ a small car, in the Hero
> System. 40 BODY would blow a hole in Grand Coolee Dam.
No it can't disintegrate a car. A small car has 13 body and 3 def, so it takes 29 body to disintegrate a car. In any case, as I said, a human can briefly survive missing half his body, which means that a 120mm cannon (5d+1 RKA or so) doesn't reliably kill a human in one shot. Killing someone by blowing their arm off is functionally _impossible_.
>
> > One thing I've considered (more for specific characters than as a
> general rule) is giving +1 defense vs body for every 2 body damage
> already taken. This means you can't easily chop someone to ribbons
> with 1 pip killing attacks.
>
> Interesting idea. However, it also means that a man who is hit for 9
> BODY can take an average round from a .38 without further injury. And
> do so repeatedly. That might be excessive.
Shrug. It correctly simulates situations in which basically normal people get stabbed 47 times and survive.
>
> GM: "OK, you have a 15 BODY, because you are tough. You have just
> taken maximum damage from that .44 Magnum. That's twelve BODY."
>
> Player: "Right. Once I recover from being stunned, I jump up and shoot
> the guards."
>
> GM: "The guards fire on you. You are hit 5 times with 9mm rounds.
> However, since none of them do more than 12 BODY, you take no BODY
> damage."
Well, on average one of them will do 7 body, and get another point through. In addition, all the shots do stun (up to you whether the extra defense applies vs stun). Finally, there's a good chance that one of the shots will be in the head or vitals, and my intent was that the reduction to damage occur after hit location modifiers.
Still, if I used this rule (it has never been playtested) I'd probably add a damage class to most killing attacks, to make sure that you can kill a human with a knife.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:12:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
On 28 Jul 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> * Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
> | You obviously didn't read my origanal post completely. I gave the
> | character a recovery every second, of every minute of every hour of every
> | day of every year. It takes a person with a 4 recovery 1x10^119 years to
> | recover. So unless they said character has full life support, they are
> | dead long before they can recover the lost stun.
>
> Nope. GMO means you recover and wake up when the GM says you do... which
> depending on the campaign could be five minutes from "now".
Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
vaporized.
J
"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:17:41 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
>because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
>*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
>um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
>vaporized.
If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
existing negative STUN record. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:08:01 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
At 11:35 AM 7/28/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>* avargas@netzero.net on Tue, 27 Jul 1999
>| Rat is right, that is the way to do it
>
>Not me, Bruce Harlick.
>
>| Rat's bit about how STR adds to an AP attack is a little wierd though.
>
>Again, not me, Bruce Harlick.
>
>All that came straight out of Ninja Hero.
Ah yes, I stand corrected -- TUMA just took the text straight out (which
Steve Long admits to doing with much of Ninja Hero).
I gather from what you say here, Rat, that Bruce added this rule for NH,
and it wasn't Aaron Allston's own text?
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:30:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Geoff Speare wrote:
> >Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
> >because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
> >*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
> >um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
> >vaporized.
>
> If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
> existing negative STUN record. :)
Our record holder (under 3rd Ed rules) is Digital who hit -175 Stun. My
character - Koyotie) may hold the second place record with -75 (or there
abouts, I do know she took 100 Stun in a single shot and was only at 25
Stun or so when it happened). Under 4th Edition, Sentinal took something
like 124 Stun and ended up at (uhm) around -50 after we took out his base
45-60 Stun and his 30 DEF. That 124 Stun (and 36 Body) was the single
largest attack I have ever rolled (30d6 EB).
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"We're not against ideas. We're just against people spreading them."
General Augusto Pinochet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:30:33 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <christopherrt@home.net>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 01:17 PM 7/28/99 -0400, Geoff Speare wrote:
>
>>Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
>>because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
>>*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
>>um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
>>vaporized.
>
>If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
>existing negative STUN record. :)
My personal best is -79, from a point blank burst of an auto shotgun.
Appolyon lived, barely, because someone grabbed his medkit and hit him with
it, but he didn't wake up for a very long time. But personally, I use the
time chart, if you go to like REC/Month, you are comatose.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria Solus Christus Corum Deo
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Geoff Speare writes:
> If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
> existing negative STUN record. :)
My personal best is -217 stun, from something like six TOW hits from mechagodzilla, plus the damage he took from his own movethrough, plus the micronuke when mechagodzilla exploded.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:46:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
> From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
>
> >Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
> >because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
> >*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
> >um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
> >vaporized.
>
> If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
> existing negative STUN record. :)
>
>
What *is* the existing record ?
Curt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:50:43 -0400
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 12:46 PM 7/28/99 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
> > From: Geoff Speare <geoff@igcn.com>
> >
> > >Right. Essentially, you stop keeping track of STUN once you're at -30,
> > >because after that it just doesn't matter - you're not going to get any
> > >*more* unconscious. Just like you stop keeping track of BODY at,
> > >um...-BODY, is it?...because after that you're not going to get any more
> > >vaporized.
> >
> > If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat
> the
> > existing negative STUN record. :)
> >
> >
>
>What *is* the existing record ?
3rd Edition record was (I believe, going from memory here) -175 or so, with
the added distinction of reaching that value in a single Phase, starting
from full STUN. (Character with flying and Force Field rounded corner
behind which waited two agents with Autofire AP blasters...our
interpretation of Force Fields dropping instantly when Stunned was rather
strict. :)
I know the 4th Edition record topped -200, but I can't remember the exact
circumstances. I believe it was a hero vs. hero "practice" battle that got
a bit personal.
Geoff Speare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:57:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: lorbaat <lorbaat@eskimo.thirteen.net>
Subject: Defensive Strike ?
Hi all,
I just want to tap the collective brains of the list (mmm, brains) on a
question that sprung up concerning my character.
I have a pair of swords that are built as HKAs with 2-shot autofire,
seperate rolls and levels to represent the fact that I can hit two
different targets with them. Seperately, I've begun to buy martial arts
for the character, and I recently bought a defensive strike, and paid the
point to make it usable with the swords.
Here's the question: How should we handle the +1 OCV and +3 DCV that I
get from making a Defensive Strike with the swords? Do I get the bonuses
twice, do I get them added to my base OCV and DCV before adding the
"seperate...levels" from the autofire, or do I get them once each, the +1
OCV essntially becoming a level I can use on one of the rolls?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
eric
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:54:58 -0700
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> Filksinger writes:
> >
> > Really? 20 BODY can completely _disintegrate_ a small car, in the
Hero
> > System. 40 BODY would blow a hole in Grand Coolee Dam.
>
> No it can't disintegrate a car. A small car has 13 body and 3 def,
so it takes 29 body to disintegrate a car.
Sorry. Versionitis. Your average car once had a 10 BODY, and, IIRC,
compacts had 8.
> In any case, as I said, a human can briefly survive missing half his
body, which means that a 120mm cannon (5d+1 RKA or so) doesn't
reliably kill a human in one shot.
True. And doesn't necessarily in HERO, either, as it could do as
little as 6 BODY, and averages only 18.5. This would instantly kill
you only if you were using optional rules.
> Killing someone by blowing their arm off is functionally
_impossible_.
Ever heard of shock? It is possible to kill a man that way; it just
generally won't. And this is still a weakness in the system, as in
HERO, it would kill him every time, since this is clearly two
Disabling shots, which, even with hit location modifiers, is still 10
BODY.
> > > One thing I've considered (more for specific characters than as
a
> > general rule) is giving +1 defense vs body for every 2 body damage
> > already taken. This means you can't easily chop someone to
ribbons
> > with 1 pip killing attacks.
> >
> > Interesting idea. However, it also means that a man who is hit for
9
> > BODY can take an average round from a .38 without further injury.
And
> > do so repeatedly. That might be excessive.
>
> Shrug. It correctly simulates situations in which basically normal
people get stabbed 47 times and survive.
True, and is something that needs to be considered if trying to create
a truly authentic (_not_ 'realistic') injury simulation. However, it
also means that people will rarely be killed by a second attack if a
first didn't, since on the average the second attack is only half
power. And if the first attack was large, they suddenly become immune
to smaller weapons, except STUN.
> > GM: "OK, you have a 15 BODY, because you are tough. You have just
> > taken maximum damage from that .44 Magnum. That's twelve BODY."
> >
> > Player: "Right. Once I recover from being stunned, I jump up and
shoot
> > the guards."
> >
> > GM: "The guards fire on you. You are hit 5 times with 9mm rounds.
> > However, since none of them do more than 12 BODY, you take no BODY
> > damage."
>
> Well, on average one of them will do 7 body, and get another point
through.
Which A) _cannot_ kill him, and B) ignores the fact that repeated
solid hits could easily do no damage at all. In fact, using this rule
it is _impossible_ to kill a man with 15 BODY with a 9 mm, except with
a Vitals or Head shot early on. The more damage he takes, the more
resistant he becomes. If he takes 14 BODY, he becomes immune to
anything smaller than a .357 Magnum. You cannot _ever_ kill him with a
9 mm once he reaches 14 BODY, because it does no BODY damage at all.
> In addition, all the shots do stun (up to you whether the extra
defense applies vs stun). Finally, there's a good chance that one of
the shots will be in the head or vitals, and my intent was that the
reduction to damage occur after hit location modifiers.
That will help quite a bit. This rule should be utterly forbidden
without hit location modifiers in place. Without other optional rules
in place, a man with a 20 BODY will _never_ die from a 9mm. He can
never take more than twice the maximum damage from any weapon.
> Still, if I used this rule (it has never been playtested) I'd
probably add a damage class to most killing attacks, to make sure that
you can kill a human with a knife.
This rule will still guarantee that a man with a high enough BODY will
virtually never die from smaller attacks. It also has another
unintended side effect; small weapons damage makes you resistant to
large weapons, too.
If you ever do use it, make certain to use all optional rules and
don't play favorites to help the heroes or the villains. I'll bet you
don't have many deaths in that game, even with Hit Locations,
Bleeding, Impairing, and Disabling all included.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:22:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Filksinger writes:
> > Killing someone by blowing their arm off is functionally
> _impossible_.
>
> Ever heard of shock? It is possible to kill a man that way; it just
> generally won't.
Oop, I should have said 'instantly'. You can certainly go in shock/bleed to death after having an arm blown off (the same mechanism works for both).
> >
> > Shrug. It correctly simulates situations in which basically normal
> people get stabbed 47 times and survive.
>
> True, and is something that needs to be considered if trying to create
> a truly authentic (_not_ 'realistic') injury simulation. However, it
> also means that people will rarely be killed by a second attack if a
> first didn't, since on the average the second attack is only half
> power. And if the first attack was large, they suddenly become immune
> to smaller weapons, except STUN.
In reality, if a single shot isn't going to kill you, two shots aren't that much more likely to kill you. You'd also use the full power of the attack for purposes of disabling wounds.
Where this breaks down is on characters with high body -- but the fact is, a character with 20 body will usually survive being hit with a tank gun, and has less than a 50% chance of even taking a disabling wound, which is pretty unrealistic anyway.
> > Still, if I used this rule (it has never been playtested) I'd
> probably add a damage class to most killing attacks, to make sure that
> you can kill a human with a knife.
>
> This rule will still guarantee that a man with a high enough BODY will
> virtually never die from smaller attacks. It also has another
> unintended side effect; small weapons damage makes you resistant to
> large weapons, too.
Nah. You're looking at it wrong. The point is, being stabbed with an icepick doesn't make it much more likely that you'll die after being hit by a cannon. If the icepick does 2 body, and the cannon does 15 body, the total damage of (icepick+cannon) becomes 16.
>
> If you ever do use it, make certain to use all optional rules and
> don't play favorites to help the heroes or the villains. I'll bet you
> don't have many deaths in that game, even with Hit Locations,
> Bleeding, Impairing, and Disabling all included.
Nah, bleeding can kill people like mad. One-shot kills from disabling wounds to head/torso also kill people pretty fast, though that usually only applies to minor characters. Btw, I wouldn't apply the reduction in damage for purposes of whether a blow is impairing or disabling.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Jul 1999 14:28:00 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: AP w/ Martial Arts
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> on Wed, 28 Jul 1999
| I gather from what you say here, Rat, that Bruce added this rule for NH,
| and it wasn't Aaron Allston's own text?
My bad... I did a name swap. The text is Aaron's, not Bruce's.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3n0uwgl+vIlSVSNkRAsYKAKCwD7UoxG0qVMpD3Kg1oYSQ3CdzmQCcDdNT
9CCIoTMclQkDQXw9Vt9gbRE=
=H8sr
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Jul 1999 14:31:41 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
* lorbaat <lorbaat@eskimo.thirteen.net> on Wed, 28 Jul 1999
| Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
There really is no good answer because you are already totally outside the
existing rules on this. Congratulations! you have just discovered one of
the reasons why being able to make more than one attack in a single action
phase is a Bad Thing to allow in the first place.
But my take is, you get the worst bonuses or penalties. That is, if one of
your maneuvers is -2 OCV and -2 DCV, and the other is +1 OCV and +3 DCV,
*BOTH* are -2 OCV and -2 DCV.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3n0yNgl+vIlSVSNkRAgQKAKDBzbnxhhyjThg5GaYpSeKNJqdIMwCgvX7L
pYNhl+Gh3dw9xvMOSYu7WTM=
=33dO
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:59:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, lorbaat wrote:
> I have a pair of swords that are built as HKAs with 2-shot autofire,
> seperate rolls and levels to represent the fact that I can hit two
> different targets with them. Seperately, I've begun to buy martial arts
> for the character, and I recently bought a defensive strike, and paid the
> point to make it usable with the swords.
OK, check me on this: The swords are bought as one power: HKA, AF2 -
right? The 'separate rolls' is definitely, as Rat said, outside the rules
- - it changes the probabilities involved quite a bit, and I'm not sure how
your GM generally rules these things.
> Here's the question: How should we handle the +1 OCV and +3 DCV that I
> get from making a Defensive Strike with the swords? Do I get the bonuses
> twice, do I get them added to my base OCV and DCV before adding the
> "seperate...levels" from the autofire, or do I get them once each, the +1
> OCV essntially becoming a level I can use on one of the rolls?
Well, on a *standard* AF2 HKA, you would perform a Defensive Strike, get
+1 OCV and +3 DCV, and then roll normally. If your GM normally makes you
split levels between the attacks, then I would say the same goes for the
OCV you get. I wouldn't let you do two maneuvers in one turn - the
closest I'd get would be the two-maneuver-base rules in NH.
J
"Yeilds falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:09:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: lorbaat <lorbaat@eskimo.thirteen.net>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
On 28 Jul 1999, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> There really is no good answer because you are already totally outside the
> existing rules on this. Congratulations! you have just discovered one of
> the reasons why being able to make more than one attack in a single action
> phase is a Bad Thing to allow in the first place.
Well, uh, according to my GM (and I'll be honest, I'm a pretty neophyte
HERO player) there are official characters built that way... of course,
since then I read about the power in "Eye for an eye" that allows
characters with Ambidexterity to attack twice with "similar" weapons- but
eyeballing the points, we decided it wasn't worth it to rebuild as that
would cost roughly the same amount and require tracking down a book.
Anyway, I don't know what "official characters" he was alluding to, but
according to him, thayr'e out there.
eric
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:19:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: lorbaat <lorbaat@eskimo.thirteen.net>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> OK, check me on this: The swords are bought as one power: HKA, AF2 -
> right?
Yes. HKA, 2-shot autofire.
> The 'separate rolls' is definitely, as Rat said, outside the rules
> - it changes the probabilities involved quite a bit, and I'm not sure how
> your GM generally rules these things.
Well, like I said, he had led me to beleive this was a fairly normal- if
kludgey- way of handling a two-weapon style. Under normal usage, I take
my base 7 OCV to attack, and then assign my combat levels (I have four,
activated by making a acrobatics roll) so I can have
one roll with an 11 OCV and one with 7, or two with 9s, or (usually) two
at 8s and a DCV of 9.
> Well, on a *standard* AF2 HKA, you would perform a Defensive Strike, get
> +1 OCV and +3 DCV, and then roll normally. If your GM normally makes you
> split levels between the attacks, then I would say the same goes for the
> OCV you get. I wouldn't let you do two maneuvers in one turn - the
> closest I'd get would be the two-maneuver-base rules in NH.
Ack! No one's asking to do two maneuvers per turn, beleive me. It is,
after all, one attack power, so I don't think I should be able to mix 'n'
match. Nor do I think I should get two base OCVs of 8 and a DCV of 13 (+3
and +3, one for each sword)- that's just ridiculous. The way we decided
to rule it is that I get a +1 to one attack and +3 to DCV, and I'm more
than fine with that, I was just curious as to what people with more
experience with the system thought about it. I didn't think it was that
hairy a question.
eric
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:40:29 -0400
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@fmco.com>
Subject: jammers
Hi,
So, I've cooked up this event in my FH game without doing all the math. Now
that my PC's are just about to become directly involved in said event, I
want to get the esteemed list's opinion on this.
Below my campaign city of Khore, there is a group of summoners and earth
magi. They are laboring to complete a spell that will unleash a terrible
earthquake upon Khore to soften it up for the impending invasion by summoned
creatures. Obviously, with a spell that takes several days to cast below a
city with a significant portion of magic savvy citizens, stealth will be
very important.
In order to guard against detection, these magi have placed an anti-scry
magical darkness over their work area. The field itself can be detected by a
conspicuous lack of background magical energy where the darkness is imposed
but only if the scanner is viewing the boundary of the field directly and
makes their perception roll with an arbitrary GM penalty. The effect is
subtle and therefore difficult to detect, even for a trained scanner who
knows what these sorts of phenomena look like.
So, the million dollar question is this. Should I buy this as Darkness vs.
Unusual Sense Group and include all flavours of detect magic, detect
illusion, detect invisible and that sort of thing within the Unusual Sense
Group or should I buy the Darkness vs. all the normal sense groups used for
detect magic and put a limitation on it that it only effects magical
detects?
As an aside, I don't allow Invisibility or invisible effects in my game
because it's too absolute. Instead, I get people to do their stealth and
obfuscation through Images, thus quantifying just how invisible you are by
measuring how much of a perception modifier is on your Images. It works very
well and has added an extra level of fun for detection and evasion. No
matter how tight your stealth spell is, you're never completely hidden.
Likewise, no matter how good your perception is, you might not see
everything that's going on.
Thanks,
BRI
Brian Wawrow
Financial Models Company
bwawrow@fmco.com
(905) 212 - 3055
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy.
-Bill Shakespeare
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:45:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
lorbaat writes:
> Ack! No one's asking to do two maneuvers per turn, beleive me. It is,
> after all, one attack power, so I don't think I should be able to mix 'n'
> match. Nor do I think I should get two base OCVs of 8 and a DCV of 13 (+3
> and +3, one for each sword)- that's just ridiculous. The way we decided
> to rule it is that I get a +1 to one attack and +3 to DCV, and I'm more
> than fine with that, I was just curious as to what people with more
> experience with the system thought about it. I didn't think it was that
> hairy a question.
Power advantages on martial arts weapons can be unbalanced, but by the rules what it does is you get one autofire attack, with +1 OCV, +3 DCV. Given raw CV of 7 and 4 levels, if you split your levels, you get one attack at OCV 10 DCV 12, and if you hit by 2 you get two hits. If you use autofire spreading, you get two attacks on different targets at OCV 8 or 9 (I don't remember if the first target counts against OCV for autofire spreading). If you're treating the autofire as two separate attack rolls, any levels spent for OCV would apply to both.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:03:47 -0700
From: Max Callahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
>>What *is* the existing record ?
>
>3rd Edition record was (I believe, going from memory here) -175 or so, with
>the added distinction of reaching that value in a single Phase, starting
>from full STUN. (Character with flying and Force Field rounded corner
>behind which waited two agents with Autofire AP blasters...our
>interpretation of Force Fields dropping instantly when Stunned was rather
>strict. :)
>
>I know the 4th Edition record topped -200, but I can't remember the exact
>circumstances. I believe it was a hero vs. hero "practice" battle that got
>a bit personal.
>
>Geoff Speare
My 4th edition record is -255 (we joked that had she taken 1 more stun she
would have rolled over and been awake again), she was a villian (flying
energy projector AE: with linked flash) who had left a fight when the rest
of her team got taken down, The hero teams mentalist foung out where the
villians rondevu (sp?) point was, they beat her to it, and then from
suprise the entire team coordinated and hit her, she took no body at least,
but she was way out.
Max Callahan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:52:59 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
At 01:57 PM 7/28/1999 -0400, lorbaat wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I just want to tap the collective brains of the list (mmm, brains) on a
>question that sprung up concerning my character.
>
>I have a pair of swords that are built as HKAs with 2-shot autofire,
>seperate rolls and levels to represent the fact that I can hit two
>different targets with them. Seperately, I've begun to buy martial arts
>for the character, and I recently bought a defensive strike, and paid the
>point to make it usable with the swords.
>
>Here's the question: How should we handle the +1 OCV and +3 DCV that I
>get from making a Defensive Strike with the swords? Do I get the bonuses
>twice, do I get them added to my base OCV and DCV before adding the
>"seperate...levels" from the autofire, or do I get them once each, the +1
>OCV essntially becoming a level I can use on one of the rolls?
>
>Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
If I'm understanding correctly, the crux of the question is whether
Martial Arts OCV modifiers used on an Autofire weapon used against separate
targets apply to all of the attacks, or must be split up among them.
I don't think there's any clear official rule on this, but I'd say that
the OCV modifier applies to each attack even when they're rolled separately.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Defensive Strike ?
At 02:31 PM 7/28/1999 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>There really is no good answer because you are already totally outside the
>existing rules on this. Congratulations! you have just discovered one of
>the reasons why being able to make more than one attack in a single action
>phase is a Bad Thing to allow in the first place.
Are you saying, then, that a character who sprays an Autofire must make
a single Attack Roll against all targets? That's not how I read it, given
the example of this in the HSR.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:58:18 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 10:54 AM 7/28/1999 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>
>
>> Filksinger writes:
>> >
>> > Really? 20 BODY can completely _disintegrate_ a small car, in the
>Hero
>> > System. 40 BODY would blow a hole in Grand Coolee Dam.
>>
>> No it can't disintegrate a car. A small car has 13 body and 3 def,
>so it takes 29 body to disintegrate a car.
>
>Sorry. Versionitis. Your average car once had a 10 BODY, and, IIRC,
>compacts had 8.
FWIW, with TUV it will take 42 BODY to completely disintegrate that car.
(A Vehicle becomes irreparable -- the vehicular equivalent of "dead" -- at
negative BODY, but it doesn't actually become confetti until twice that.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:00:12 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
At 10:40 AM 7/28/1999 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Geoff Speare writes:
>
>> If you're in one of my campaigns, you keep track to see if you can beat the
>> existing negative STUN record. :)
>
>My personal best is -217 stun, from something like six TOW hits from
mechagodzilla, plus the damage he took from his own movethrough, plus the
micronuke when mechagodzilla exploded.
I've only seen as low as -82 STUN, on a villain who got triple-teamed by
a brick and three energy projectors.
However, I did have a motorcycle that got reduced to -30 BODY once.
(Something much, *much* larger got Knocked Back into it.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:23:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Stun from Killing Attacks
Bob Greenwade writes:
> FWIW, with TUV it will take 42 BODY to completely disintegrate that car.
> (A Vehicle becomes irreparable -- the vehicular equivalent of "dead" -- at
> negative BODY, but it doesn't actually become confetti until twice that.)
Grumble statistical anomalies caused by high body scores. This means that a 16" shell (about 28d EX) won't reduce a car to confetti... Any attack doing 2x body in one shot should create instant confetti (actually, I'm somewhat of a fan of all objects having a flat 10 body, regardless of size).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:29:33 -0400
From: "Scott A. Colcord" <sacolcor@ic.net>
Subject: RE: Stun from Killing Attacks
> My 4th edition record is -255 (we joked that had she taken 1 more stun she
> would have rolled over and been awake again), she was a villain (flying
> energy projector AE: with linked flash) who had left a fight when the rest
> of her team got taken down, The hero teams mentalist found out where the
> villains rendezvous point was, they beat her to it, and then from surprise
> the entire team coordinated and hit her, she took no body at least, but
she
> was way out.
The lowest I've heard of firsthand was in a friend's campaign, where a poor
villain had a x2 vulnerability from both Mental attacks and Sonics...
PC Psionic: "I'm going to mental illusion pulling a sonic bazooka out of my
a**, and blasting him with it."
GM: "You realize he'll get a big bonus to his EGO roll against
something that unrealistic..."
PC Psionic: "I've fought this guy before...it won't help him."
GM: <sigh>
Wish I could remember the actual total...
----Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:31:04 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Coming Attractions At the Movies
At 06:28 AM 7/28/1999 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:41 PM 7/27/1999 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>>
>>Topher Grace doesn't look old enough to play Gilligan. I think the guy
>>(can't recall his name) who plays Joxar on Xena. I think he could pull
>>it off.
>
> Style-wise, Ted Raimi (Joxer) could do it, but he's way too old -- in
>his mid-thirties, I believe (remember, he was on SeaQuest DSV also, as Tim
>Ortiz).
Maybe in an Alternate Dimension, Bob, but in /this/ universe, Raimi played
officer Tim /O'Neill/ and Marco Sanchez played non-com Ortiz. :)
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:41:35 +1000
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Chupacabras
At 19:41 24/07/99 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote:
>Juan Antonio Ramirez wrote:
>
>> And the "Chupacabras" legend is NOT limited to northern Mexico. In
>> fact, it was recently seen in a big way here in Puerto Rico, where tons
>> of people claimed to have seen it, t-shirt were sold with the alleged
>> drawing of the Chupacabras, humorous songs were written about it,
>> parents scared their children with it (boogie man thing), farmers
>> claimed to have found dead goats (and cows, etc) with a hole in the top
>> of the head and no blood, etc.
>
>The story has spread like wild fire throughout latin america from what
>I understand. One of my wife's sisters aked her how bad the
>Chupacabra attacks were getting here in the US after seeing last
>years episode of the X-Files. When we left Nicaragua in 94,
>nobody had ever heard of the Chupacabra. It is amazing how
>these types of stories spread.
>
if we kill all the goats it should stop the spread...
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #474
*****************************
Web Page created with Text2Web v1.5.0 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Monday, September 06, 1999 10:47 AM