Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 48

Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 48
Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 12:05 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #48

champ-l-digest Saturday, November 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 048

In this issue:

Re: Computers
Re: Ultimate Books
Speed Change (was Re: Cheep Speed)
Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Re: Ultimate Books
Re: Computers
Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Re: Telekinetic Question
Re: need loser villains
Re: Computers)
RE: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)
Re: CHAR: Last Action Heroine
Re: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)
Re: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)
Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Re: Ultimate Books
Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Re: Speed Change (was Re: Cheep Speed)
RE: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)
Hardbody

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:36:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Computers

Greetings!

- ---Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
> > I have a player that is buying a computer for his suit of
> >battlearmor and I have a couple of questions on it:
> >
> >1. First, what senses is is considered to have? He wants it to analyze
> >drugs and has brought some appropriate skills for the computer. However,
> >my question is does he have to buy a power that lets the computer
> >"sense" the material being analyzed.
> >Could I just say the computer has a injection node as parts of its
> >special effect or does he have to buy a power such as Clairsentience?
>
> As far as I can tell, computers and AIs in Fourth Edition seem to get input
> capability for free. What this actually means is a tricky question, but if
> you bought it a super sense, it probably wouldn't even need the skill, so
> it's likely redundent.

If you've got enough points, I'd say it's "belt and suspenders" time.
In other words, get the super sense AND the skill... just to cover more
posterior acreage.

> >
> >2. How do I, as the GM, make sure that he doesn't abuse this computer
> >and use its skill as his own?
>
> Within the rules, I doubt there is any way. Computer and AI systems bought
> portably are a _very_ slippery slope. At best, you could occasionally have
> the computer give a deceptive result because he doesn't know how to to ask
> quite the right questions.

What do you mean by abusing the computer? It can only do what it's
description says it can do.
The thing to consider here is that, if he paid points for it, it IS his
own skill. He's merely chosen a unique method of describing a focus, and IMHO
he should be allowed to use it however he wishes.
This, of course, doesn't preclude the GM from exploiting any limitations
and/or disadvantages that the player has applied.

Dale A. Ward

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:38:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books

> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
>
> Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> > Hear ! Hear ! It seems like a lot of people want more details about stuff
> > handed to them without doing even a little research.
>
> And your point is?
>
> Almost every book put out by Hero (or any gaming system for that matter) is
> something that anybody could do for themselves if they wanted to invest the
> time and do the research. Believe it or not, not everyone WANTS to spend their
> time digging through books compiling all of the obscure information that comes
> up in a game at one time or another.
>

My point is that if it's obscure information than what difference does it
make how accurate it is ?

> If I am willing to spend my money to have someone else do all of the 'boring
> work' part of running a game, who are YOU to tell me this is wrong?
>
It's NOT wrong. But would you rather spend money on products related to
'mundane' / real world information that you can research for yourself or on
the creative stuff like plots / organizations / characters etc. etc. ?

Which would you find more use for ?

> Personally I would LOVE a book that had basic information about the various
> things PCs might encounter.
>

No doubt this is a failure of imagination on my part, but I can't see why
this level of detail is needed. I don't see the relevance of the following.
This will probably sound antagonistic, but can you explain why these
first examples made any differnce in the game ?

>
> What kind of training does a standard police officer have?
>
> How about a SWAT team member? A detective? A doctor? An EMT? A Nurse? A
> surgeon?
>
> How much do each of these people get paid?
>
> What does a standard police form look like? How about an autopsy form?
>

Okay, these examples I can see some use for:

> What equipment is carried in an ambulance? How much can an EMT do on the
> scene?
>
> What are some of the 'loopholes' that a cheesy lawyer might use to get a
> villian off 'scot free'?
>

Curt Hicks

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:03:31 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Speed Change (was Re: Cheep Speed)

SSRat wrote:

>This does not address the issue that, if on segment 4 you kick in your
>extra Speed, you will have no actions until Segment 12 (cf the rules on
>changing speed within a Turn).

This isn't how I've always interpreted the "Optional Speed Change"
rules. I've got the BBB right here in front of me. I've always read
the sentence "...the character cannot act until he has had a Phase for
BOTH of the SPDs..." to mean that he can start using his new SPD on the
Phase (for that SPD) which comes after his next from the old SPD. I
know that sounds convoluted. Bear with me. The example they give in
the book isn't very clear, because both SPD 3 and SPD 5 get an action on
sement 8, which implies that you can only go on a segment that has "X's"
on the chart in both columnts, but that isn't what the rules say,
semantics-wise. This is the example I would use:

Bob the Normal is SPD 3. On segment 4, he changes into Captain Upright,
Defender of the State, with a SPD of 7. He then stands around looking
patriotic until after segment 8 (his next action on SPD 3) and is
officially SPD 7 from then on. This means his next action is on segment
9. From then on, he is SPD 7 and acts again on segments 11 & 12.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not Bob gets to take an
action on segment 8... On 8, after all, he "has had" an action for both
of his SPDs (since 7 gets to act on both 5 & 6). I believe the proper
answer to this question is yes, but I could be argued out of it with a
sufficiently logical alternate view. However, my interpretation is as
follows: Bob acts on segment 4 (half move, change to Capt. Upright,
attack), his next action is on 8, then 9, 11, and 12. Granted, this
gives you a lot of actions towards the end of the turn, but a SPD 7
character could achieve the same effect by holding a Phase, and get to
act 3 other times, as well, so it hardly seems overpowered, IMHO.

I like this interpretation because it allows me to act 5 times in the
turn, which, coincidentally, is the midpoint between 3 & 7. Likewise,
the example in the book, of changing from 3 to 5 allows 4 actions. I
believe that this should be the real criterion for deciding when your
next action is.

The reason I don't agree with the interpretation that you can only start
acting again on the next segment where both speeds have a phase (which
is the interpretation I believe I've been seeing on this list today) is
this: If I change from SPD 3 to SPD 7 (which doesn't act on segement
8), I am actually moving SLOWER than if I changed to SPD 5 (which does
get to go on 8) This is obviously counter- intuitive.

On the other hand, I suspect that these rules are called "Optional" is
not an accident. Lord knows I've never made use of them in actual play,
nor would I want to. The basic rule is that you can only change speeds
post-segment 12, and I think that (playability-wise) that's the best
route. This isn't StarFleet Battles, where changing your speed in
mid-turn can give you energy BACK that can be spent on other things
later, after all...

Jesse Thomas

haerandir@hotmail.com

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

Greetings!

All of this talk about highly specific sourcebooks prompts me to make
this comment... even though some authors may be hurt or offended.

I have NEVER, in my entire gaming career, used a sourcebook of any type
for any reason.
The way I see it, if there's something I don't know (a highly unlikely
event ;>), I can just make something up on the spot. If my players are just
as ignorant as I am, then nobody's the wiser.
On the other hand, if one of them happens to have knowledge that I lack,
rest assured that they will LEAP at the chance to show me the error of my
ways. I speak from considerable experience. I've learned a lot of things
this way.

My heartfelt apologies to all sourcebook authors.

Take Care!
Dale A. Ward

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:34:27 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books

Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> My point is that if it's obscure information than what difference does it
> make how accurate it is ?

Because it's often important to the plot to provide clues. It doesn't
necessarily have to be completely accurate, but it DOES have to be
believable. I don't know about you, but I play with some pretty intelligent
people, and when I GM I'd prefer that my information be accurate enough that I
don't look stupid.

> > If I am willing to spend my money to have someone else do all of the 'boring
> > work' part of running a game, who are YOU to tell me this is wrong?
> >
> It's NOT wrong. But would you rather spend money on products related to
> 'mundane' / real world information that you can research for yourself or on
> the creative stuff like plots / organizations / characters etc. etc. ?
>
> Which would you find more use for ?

Well, to be totally honest, I would buy both. I mean, thirty bucks is NOT
alot of money, especially when you compare it to the many hours it would save
me doing it myself. If I were forced to choose between the two? I would
choose the book on 'mundane' real world information. At least the other
stuff is fun to do, and if I don't have to worry about it being 'wrong'.

> No doubt this is a failure of imagination on my part, but I can't see why
> this level of detail is needed. I don't see the relevance of the following.
> This will probably sound antagonistic, but can you explain why these
> first examples made any differnce in the game ?
>
>
> > What kind of training does a standard police officer have?
> >
> > How about a SWAT team member? A detective? A doctor? An EMT? A Nurse? A
> > surgeon?
> >
> > How much do each of these people get paid?

Apparently we play in completely different types of games. You have never had
PCs or NPCs in your games with these careers? There are often questions about
just how much that street cop knows about investigating a crime scene, or
whether the EMT that arrives on the scene has the equipment or training to
deal with a victim that has been badly burned, etc.

Alot of this information is for background purposes. If the PCs are
investigating a surgeon and they discover he has a yacht and $6 million in the
bank.. is that enough to set off a red flag that he's doing something illegal
to make that much money? Does the PC who is a nurse in her secret ID make
enough money that she could reasonably afford to buy a plane ticket to Japan
on the spur of the moment?

> > What does a standard police form look like? How about an autopsy form?

You apparently don't provide hand outs to your players.. these are pretty
standard types of things that PCs would ask to see in the process of an
investigation.. and could be used to provide TONS of clues.

I guess it comes down to how much detail and realism you want to provide in
your campaign. I prefer that my information be accurate, or at least close
enough that there are no misunderstandings between what *I* believe to be
correct and what a player with the appropriate skills would know.

If I had the time I would research all of this stuff myself, but since I
don't, I am more than willing to pay someone else to do it for me. Why is
this a bad thing?

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:53:51 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Computers

> What do you mean by abusing the computer? It can only do what it's
>description says it can do.

Yes, but note that it is significantly cheaper to buy a computer than buy
the skills and such yourself. it's effectively a Follower in a box after all.

> The thing to consider here is that, if he paid points for it, it IS his
>own skill. He's merely chosen a unique method of describing a focus, and IMHO
>he should be allowed to use it however he wishes.

Ah, but I'd bet he bought it as a Follower; that's normally the way robots
and computers are bought. If all he's doing is taking the Focus limit on
it, it's less abusive, but somehow I'm not terribly thrilled with people
buying full skills on Foci either.

>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:56:56 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

>Greetings!
>
> All of this talk about highly specific sourcebooks prompts me to make
>this comment... even though some authors may be hurt or offended.
>
> I have NEVER, in my entire gaming career, used a sourcebook of any type
>for any reason.
> The way I see it, if there's something I don't know (a highly unlikely
>event ;>), I can just make something up on the spot. If my players are just
>as ignorant as I am, then nobody's the wiser.
> On the other hand, if one of them happens to have knowledge that I lack,
>rest assured that they will LEAP at the chance to show me the error of my
>ways. I speak from considerable experience. I've learned a lot of things
>this way.

And perhaps you enjoy watching a player either contradict you every time you
use something relating to his field of expertise, or alternatively shift
around uneasily constantly. I can't say I do, and if a plot thread turned
on it, it can seriously disrupt things.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:50:31 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Telekinetic Question

>Greetings!
>
>---Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>> >I've ran into this several times, so I thought I throw it out to the list:
>> >
>> >A telekinetic (10 str, no fine manipulation) lifts a 90 strength Brick into
>> >the air. I've had GMs say that the brick now has no way to break out as
>> >there is nothing to "push" against. Others that say it works like any other
>> >grab. What do you all think?
>> >
>> >Personally, I'd say game balance means it work like any other grab.
>>
>> As described in the rules, TK actually works like a big immaterial hand than
>> anything else, and as such should be escapeable as for any other Strength
>> effect.
>
> I think I could make a case for either situation. It comes down to a
>question of SFX.

No, I don't think in the case of a question where the interpetation alters
the mechanical utility of the power so thoroughly, that it does. TK is is
essentially STR exerted at range; if you want it to not be treated like
that, I think the balance of the system either requires you to use a
different power or to at least apply an Advantage to it.

> Can someone think of a way to make the TK Desolid? Then, give it the
>advantage of Affects Solid. That would make it ironclad official, I think.
> Of course, the word "immaterial" in Wayne's statement implies that these
>effects are built in to the power.

The fact it's immaterial doesn't mean it can't be interacted with. A
magnetic field is immaterial too. The problem with TK is that some people's
perception of it is that it doesn't have 'resistance' in some cases. I'd
say that in those cases something beyond the base power needs to be purchased.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:22:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: need loser villains

At 11:27 AM 11/20/98 -0800, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>> lame villains
[snip]
>How about "Der Baron"?
>Can fly, dresses in red & black, has an auto-fire EB vs PD.
>goes Berserk if asked what he wants on his tombstone.

LOL!!!

>by the way, shall I collect all these ideas into a file? :)

Do. And then maybe someone can post it to their website. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:03:29 -0800
From: jayphailey@juno.com (Jay P Hailey)
Subject: Re: Computers)

> I've noticed that most RPG resource books are fairly good at
>giving a general summary of a topic while being much more concise and
>amenable to skimming than, say, a writer's reference or any sort of
>actual text from the field. Trouble is, while I can find GURPS
>worldbooks on numerous arcane settings, I can't find one on modern
>life.

GURPS Horror is about the closest thing I have, currently. And it does
have some of the information you mention.

> On the one hand, certainly you could fill a good-sized tome with
>info about either of these professions. On the other, how much of
>that would be really applicable to your typical RPG? Again, two or
>three pages of text describing standard hospital organization and
>procedures, followed by several pages of maps and maybe a handful of
>stock NPCs, would do the job for 80% of the occasions.
>
> Call of Cthulu, while I'm on the topic, had a really cool 2-page
>or so essay on what happens to a body after death. A good read for
>any campaign where the players may have to deal with a recently
>deceased corpse.

That sounds cool. What was that game I read about once? It was a
humorous reference, "Papers and Paychecks, the Modern Day Role Playing
Game" The idea being that a game that was too accurate about real life
would be basically indistinguishable from RL and therefore boring.

Jay P. Hailey <Meow!>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:27:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)

At 11:35 AM 11/20/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Hear ! Hear ! It seems like a lot of people want more details about stuff
>handed to them without doing even a little research.
>
>Curt Hicks p.s. yes, I know that we're all pressed for time.

And both of these two points are what spawned Writer's Digest's
"Howdunit" series of books for mystery novelists. There's plenty of
material out there that said writers could use as resources, but this
series boils down that material into a form that they can use without
having to go to that extra work, thus spending more time on the actual story.
Similarly, these suggested "Professional" books would help the GM give a
treatment of each profession that's as realistic and as detailed as he
feels comfortable with. (For that matter, if properly done, they could be
useful to novelists and other writers as well.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:52:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Last Action Heroine

At 11:54 AM 11/20/98 -0800, Ell Egyptoid wrote:
>KELLIE WINTERS
[snip]
>18 EC (18),"Last Action Heroine powers"

From this much, I gather you're trying to be humorous (and not
altogether without success). I'll take that into account. :-]

> 18b) 4 BODY Regen,recovery rate: per minute

I'd suggest making this "only half damage per wound."

> 27c) 10/10 Force Field (Hi-Tech),0 END Persistent,x1 Hard

I'm not sure what you're trying to represent here.

> 13d) Clairsentience (Mutant Powers),"tone & pace of music
> change accordingly.",Detect,see future,no specifics. only
> what feel or theme of music can convey,Visible Always On

Same here, though to a lesser extent. (Mind you, I was totally confused
until I read the text description; that's why I prefer to see the text
first, and then the character sheet.)
The music, as I read it, is an effect rather than a cause. The music
can enable her to get a sense of how the mood of the situation is about to
change, so this would be Clairsentience with the music as SFX.

>60 MP (Hi-Tech) (90),"Lots o' Weapons",OIF
> 6u 2D6 RKA,"Automatic rifle",17-32 Chgs,16 Clips,
> x10 AF,x1 AP 0
> 6u 12D6 EB,"Pistol",0 END 0
> 5u 2 1/2D6 HKA,"BIG knife",x1 AP,1/2 END 3
> 5u 3D6 RKA,"Sniper rifle",9-12 Chgs,8 Clips,x1 AP 0
> 5u 2 1/2D6 HKA,"Throwing knives",7-8 Chgs,recoverable,
> Rng,x1 AP 0
> 4u 3D6 RKA,7-8 Chgs,+1"/DC Exp 0

I'd recommend upgrading the individual slots to OAF (apply an additional
- -1/2 Limitation to each, beyond the -1/2 for OIF on the Pool).

>1 Stealth 14- (Only when Noise covers music)

Again, the Limitation doesn't make sense to me.

>4 M Dodge
>5 K Throw
>3 M Throw
>4 K Strike
>4 M Strike

Is this any particular style, or just "Generic Action Heroine Matrial
Arts"?

>15 Psych Lim,"loves publicity, sulks when not in spotlight
> weekly",common,strong

This could be crippling if not reduced to Moderate.

>20 Vuln,"Radiation",common,x2 body
>20 Vuln,"Radiation",common,x2 body

Why? (And I do assume that the first was supposed to be x2 STUN.)
The text description is fine. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:37:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)

At 09:47 AM 11/20/98 -0800, Hilary wrote:
>> If you want to pick up stuff for lawyers, watch Law & Order. If you want
>> to know secret agent stuff, read Tom Clancy. If you want to know
>> theoretical physics, read a book and do the math.
>
>Good point. Most of us really don't need all the ins and outs of every
>profession and this is a comic-book world so what you derive from
>entertainment(especially shows/books/movies based on reality) will probably
>be sufficient.

Most of us also don't have much use for a sourcebook on the United
Kingdom, or one about corporations, or one detailing a fictional
crime-ridden city and the world around it, or nearly 300 pages on
superheroic magic. But that doesn't make the books that Hero Games has
published on these topics a bad idea.
If I pick up a game book and 20% of the material is good enough to fill
in some gaps in my game, if only to add color and life to the setting, then
I consider it a good purchase. The only Hero Games publications that I can
think of that don't do that for me are European Enemies, Underworld
Enemies, and TUSM, and I'm not even all that dissatisfied with these three.
I think that, generally without realizing it, most folks have pretty
close to the same view. How many of us who own Enemies Assemble! use all
five of the teams presented therein? How many only use one or two, and
consider the book wasted money? How many own and like Enemies For Hire,
but only use a half-dozen or so of the characters in those pages?
How many of the rules in TUMA does any of us actually use? How many of
the martial arts styles?
The point is that there's always a good opening for something that
brings a lot of information together in one place, formatted in a way
that's useful for a particular market (writers, GMs, whatever). And I
think that sales for the police and military books GRG has under way will
be good, bearing this out.
PS: I was being most facetious about doing a Performing Arts
Professional book, though I imagine it might be helpful for some campaigns
to know what goes into making a movie, television program, play, concert,
record album, animated program, etc. (Mostly movies, TV, and concerts,
since those seem to get some sort of treatment quite frequently in source
material, or at least more frequently than other forms of art.)
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:15:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Books (was Ultimate Books)

At 02:16 PM 11/20/98 -0600, Todd Hanson wrote:
>What are some of the 'loopholes' that a cheesy lawyer might use to get a
>villian off 'scot free'?

You only have *one* "lawyer" question? How about:

How is crime scene evidence collected by an attorney or his detectives?
Are they allowed to examine a crime scene after the police are done, but
before it's opened up to all comers? Can a private attorney get a search
warrant?
What are the rules regarding disclosure of evidence?
What sort of "special defenses" (such as insanity or self-defense) are
allowed, and what criteria are used to determine if they're legitimate?
What kind of evidence is typically presented at a grand jury hearing or
preliminary hearing, as opposed to being held for the trial?
How is bail determined? What happens when you use a bail bondsman?
What happens if you use your own money?
What is the typical procedure for jury selection?
What is the standard procedure at a trial? What criteria can be used to
cause evidence to be excluded? How are witnesses chosen and called? What
constitutes a "hostile" witness?

What's proper form for an opening statement? Closing statement?
What constitutes proper foundation and questioning? What are the
grounds for objection? What is allowed during cross-examination, redirect,
and re-cross?
For what reasons might an attorney want to approach the bench (or
sidebar) or discuss a matter in the judge's chambers? Or for what reason
might the judge call for such a meeting?
How is the sentence determined in a criminal matter or damages
determined in a civil matter?
How are appeals handled?
And so much for criminal trials... what about civil trials? How does
one go about filing a civil suit? How much of the above is different?
And what about wills? What's necessary to make a will legal? What
could be grounds for challenging a will's legitimacy? What complications
can ensue regarding a will (such as if it leaves more to its beneficiearies
than the estate is worth)?
How does one go about getting an injuction or restraining order? What
happens (or can happen) if this order is violated?
What's the procedure for getting a copyright, patent, trademark, or
similar protection? What rights and responsibilities does this entail?
What sort of complications can ensue?
What procedures are in place for adopting a child? What if the child is
a foundling? What can happen if the birth parents want the child back (and
who hasn't at least heard of a scenario like that)?
A few other issues, such as conservatorships and corporate law, can also
be touched upon, and a reprint/update of the "Superheroes and the Law"
section of Dark Champions could be included.
Obviously, a lot of the above will vary from one state to another, and
will also be different in Australia, Canada, the UK, and other
jurisdictions than here in the United States; some discussion of the
differences would be in order. Also, a lot of the above would involve
role-playing matters more than rules, and would probably have to be given
very brief treatments (the stuff on opening and closing statements at
trails, for instance, should probably cover no more than a half-page to a
page together, since it would generally affect only PCs who are lawyers).
All of the above, plus a couple dozen or so NPCs of various stripes,
would probably just about fill a 96-page sourcebook.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:18:27 -0800
From: "Hilary" <kabuki@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

> >
> > I have NEVER, in my entire gaming career, used a sourcebook of any
type
> >for any reason.
> > The way I see it, if there's something I don't know (a highly
unlikely
> >event ;>), I can just make something up on the spot. If my players are
just
> >as ignorant as I am, then nobody's the wiser.
> > On the other hand, if one of them happens to have knowledge that I
lack,
> >rest assured that they will LEAP at the chance to show me the error of
my
> >ways. I speak from considerable experience. I've learned a lot of
things
> >this way.

I think that's unfortunate for your players, only because in my experience
some fo the information you can get from sourcebooks can spark ideas for
adventures and infact whole campaigns(as it once did for me), not to
mention can add small ammounts of realism that help to draw in your
players. Plus, the players I've gamed with are pretty smart and they never
cease to ask questions I never considered. I don't stop a game to search
through a book for something, but being able to look at a sourcebook before
running a gaming session can be very helpful. To each his own.

Hil

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:21:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

At 03:43 PM 11/20/98 -0800, Dale Ward wrote:
>Greetings!
>
> All of this talk about highly specific sourcebooks prompts me to make
>this comment... even though some authors may be hurt or offended.
>
> I have NEVER, in my entire gaming career, used a sourcebook of any type
>for any reason.
> The way I see it, if there's something I don't know (a highly unlikely
>event ;>), I can just make something up on the spot. If my players are just
>as ignorant as I am, then nobody's the wiser.
> On the other hand, if one of them happens to have knowledge that I
lack,
>rest assured that they will LEAP at the chance to show me the error of my
>ways. I speak from considerable experience. I've learned a lot of things
>this way.
>
> My heartfelt apologies to all sourcebook authors.

Speaking as a sourcebook author, I take no offense at this whatsoever.
If you feel comfortable with playing your games in a manner this free-form,
then more power to ya. In fact, I might like to sit in some time, if I'm
ever out your way or meet up with you at a Con.
On the other hand, sometimes a little detail in a sourcebook can spark
scenario ideas. To demonstrate, I just opened up Kingdom of Champions to a
random spot, and found a mention and brief description of the National
Exhibition Centre in Birmingham, England. Said description started an idea
for a scenario that I could use in the Justifiers campaign.
In fact, for my own purposes, it'd be kinda nice to know the name of the
local newspaper in Birmingham, and similar "backdrop" details.
Clearly, you feel perfectly comfortable saying something like, "On your
first day in Corvallis, Oregon, you pick up a copy of the local paper, and
the main headline says that the mayor is going to be giving a special award
to your quarry, Dr. Wilde, on Saturday morning at a local city-wide science
festival at a park in the middle of town." There's absolutely nothing
wrong with that. Personally, though, I'd prefer being able to say, "On
your first day in Corvallis, Oregon, you pick up a copy of the
Gazette-Times, and the main headline says that Mayor Helen Berg is going to
be giving a special award to your quarry, Dr. Wilde, on Saturday morning at
the Da Vinci Days celebration, at the Central Park gazebo." To me, it's
just a little more immediate.
Similarly, rather than just saying, "The lawyer gives you a restraining
order that says you can't come within a thousand feet of his client," I'd
like to be able to role-play the lawyer and actually present the player
with a sheet of paper that looks reasonably like an actual, legal
restraining order. There's nothing outright wrong about the former
approach; I just like the latter.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:54:50 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books

From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>

<snip>
>It's NOT wrong. But would you rather spend money on products related to
>'mundane' / real world information that you can research for yourself or on
>the creative stuff like plots / organizations / characters etc. etc. ?
>
>Which would you find more use for ?

Real world. By a factor of about 5 to 1, I suspect.

For me, at least. You obviously wouldn't.

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:20:53 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>

>At 07:02 PM 11/18/98 -0800, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>> I'd really love to see an Ultimate Everyman book. I talked over
>>doing one of these with a list member three or four years back (god,
>>has it been that long?), though we didn't call it that (this predates
>>the Ultimate books).
>>
>> The basic idea was to build all the normal, everyday things and
>>characters you might encounter in a modern hero game, complete with
>>point costs. This would give the GM an invaluable resource, and the
>>players who want to run "normal"-based characters a guideline for
>>things they could acquire.
>
> Actually, while I don't think it'd necessarily fit into the Ultimate
>line, I think that this would be a worthwhile project.
>
How about "The Ultimate Real World"?<g>

Filksinger

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1998 22:16:54 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speed Change (was Re: Cheep Speed)

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"JT" == Jesse Thomas <haerandir@hotmail.com> writes:

JT> This isn't how I've always interpreted the "Optional Speed Change"
JT> rules.

Um, people? READ WHAT I WROTE IN THE CONTEXT I WROTE IT.

Of *COURSE* it is not what is in the BBB. I was addressing the proposed
method of handling speed change by showing how it would be abused.

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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:03:40 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: Ultimate Books (was Re: Computers)

At 09:48 AM 11/20/98 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>If you want to pick up stuff for lawyers, watch Law & Order. If you want
>to know secret agent stuff, read Tom Clancy. If you want to know
>theoretical physics, read a book and do the math.
>
>Before I ever see a Hero book about the medical profession or any other
>RL job, I'd like to see a decent Fantasy Hero campaign book, just one.

By your logic: read David Eddings, J.R.R. Tolkien, or Robert Jordan.

- --
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:32:30 -0500
From: "Marc" <games@nassau.cv.net>
Subject: Hardbody

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Character created by Marc E. Ducoursy=20

Background:=20

Becky is the only daughter to Garry and Beth Ryder. A lower middle class =
family living on the fringes of the main city. Becky did not have a =
happy childhood. It was evident at an early age that her birth was an =
unwanted accident. (That is the last time Gary uses a budget condom). =
The father is a per job construction worker and Beth is a home cleaner. =
With their income and having to care for an unwanted child put a strain =
on the family.=20

Becky had stayed home from school for a few days due to 'accidents' at =
home.=20

Shortly after her 12th birthday, Becky started growing jaget metalic =
plates, spikes, and quills all over her body. These growths made life =
dificult for Becky. She was kept at home. After the growths started to =
make wearing clothing imposible and it really hurt her parents more than =
it hurt her during the 'Accidnets' at home, Becky was kept in the =
basement. Becky was removed from school and with some fast talking on =
her parent's part. Beck has spent the next five years hidden in the =
basement of the Ryder home.=20

Over time. Becky has grown in size and mass. Soon she no longer needed =
to eat. When food no longer became a neccecity, It would be weeks at a =
time where Becky's only company was the TV. She was almost forgotten =
except to be reminded that she was an unwanted accident of birth and now =
a freak.=20

By the time she was sixteen, the jaged plates, spikes, and barbs slowly =
coated and infused into her body. She ended up looking like a 7 foot 6 =
inche tall and over 500 poinds and built like a super model. One day she =
cought her reflection on a metal plate she uses for a mirror (Rarely =
used). She saw she looked normal. not like her parents or the people on =
TV. But, she no longer had the plates barbs and spikes sticking out of =
her body. That day she decided she no longer needed to live like this. =
She went up stairs and took a shirt and a pair of sweat pants from her =
father's draws. Becky left home never to return again.=20

Becky was out on the street. Due to her appearance no body would take =
her in. If they did she was treated no better than she was at home. With =
all the abandonment and abuse she developed a need for love and =
acceptance. Around this time a street gand DIABLO noticed her. A group =
of juvanile delinquents quickly became Becky's new friends and family. =
They accepted her not just ad Muscles for their 'activities' but as a =
person.=20

One day, after some fun with the gang, at some store owner's ecspence =
Becky, nicknamed Hardbody by the gang, went up for a smoke.=20

"Sir. Target 47 spotted. She has separated herself from the group. T =
minus 2.5 minutes till optimum time of aqusition. Your command sir."=20

"GO."=20

That night 'Hardbody' was need seen or heard from since.=20

10 years have gone by. Hardbody has spent that time in suspended =
animation. A 'prized trophy' in TEV's collection.

Hardbody's welcome to the land of the awake was to be surrounded by =
Aegis. The new heros of Memphis..

At one of Diablo's outings. they ran into some trouble. (Called =
police) There was gunplay. Hardbody placed herself between an armed =
gang-member and a disarmed police officer. She took the bullets ment =
for the cop. The gang called her a trator and left.

Hardbody was still wanted for past 'transgressions'. and arrested. =
(She was easily restrained. She was shocked that a team mate would =
shoot at her, even if it was to save a life of a cop). The gang does =
not know it but without HARDBODY's intervention, the gang could have =
been wanted for murdering a poilce officer.

=20

POWERS=20

Becky is a brick. Her special abilities are derived from her metalic =
body. From her mutant physique Becky is stronger and tougher than most =
people. Punching her is like punching a steele plated door. Besides =
being your average Brick. Becky has picked up some skills and contacts =
while with DIABLO. With all her years with nothing but a TV for company =
Beck knows a bit on TV trivia.=20

WEAKNESS=20

Becky's main weakness is based on her need for loke and acceptance and =
her low self esteem. If her opponent can play on these psychological =
needs of hers it can effect the way she treats them in combat. =
Physically her body can be hurt by magnetic based attacks. But as she =
matures she is becomming less and less affected by magnetic attacks.=20

APPEARANCE=20

HARDBODY is a 7' 6" tall metalic beauty, she wears a black tanktop. Due =
to her size (And figure) it just keeps her in the Comic code =
regulations. She also wears A pair of black sweats ripped on the bottom =
so they look like shorts. She is bare footed (hard to find women's shoes =
in her size.=20

QUOTE=20

"Hi lover. Want to play"=20

_________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________
IN CHARACTER. Home of my characters and soon (or later) my BPEM =
campaign

HTTP://www.liii.com/~dragon

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<DIV>
Character created by Marc E. Ducoursy 
Background: 
Becky is the only daughter to Garry and Beth Ryder. A lower middle =
class=20
family living on the fringes of the main city. Becky did not have a =
happy=20
childhood. It was evident at an early age that her birth was an unwanted =

accident. (That is the last time Gary uses a budget condom). The father =
is a per=20
job construction worker and Beth is a home cleaner. With their income =
and having=20
to care for an unwanted child put a strain on the family. 
Becky had stayed home from school for a few days due to 'accidents' =
at home.=20

Shortly after her 12th birthday, Becky started growing jaget metalic =
plates,=20
spikes, and quills all over her body. These growths made life dificult =
for=20
Becky. She was kept at home. After the growths started to make wearing =
clothing=20
imposible and it really hurt her parents more than it hurt her during =
the=20
'Accidnets' at home, Becky was kept in the basement. Becky was removed =
from=20
school and with some fast talking on her parent's part. Beck has spent =
the next=20
five years hidden in the basement of the Ryder home. 
Over time. Becky has grown in size and mass. Soon she no longer =
needed to=20
eat. When food no longer became a neccecity, It would be weeks at a time =
where=20
Becky's only company was the TV. She was almost forgotten except to be =
reminded=20
that she was an unwanted accident of birth and now a freak. 
By the time she was sixteen, the jaged plates, spikes, and barbs =
slowly=20
coated and infused into her body. She ended up looking like a 7 foot 6 =
inche=20
tall and over 500 poinds and built like a super model. One day she =
cought her=20
reflection on a metal plate she uses for a mirror (Rarely used). She saw =
she=20
looked normal. not like her parents or the people on TV. But, she no =
longer had=20
the plates barbs and spikes sticking out of her body. That day she =
decided she=20
no longer needed to live like this. She went up stairs and took a shirt =
and a=20
pair of sweat pants from her father's draws. Becky left home never to =
return=20
again. 
Becky was out on the street. Due to her appearance no body would take =
her in.=20
If they did she was treated no better than she was at home. With all the =

abandonment and abuse she developed a need for love and acceptance. =
Around this=20
time a street gand DIABLO noticed her. A group of juvanile delinquents =
quickly=20
became Becky's new friends and family. They accepted her not just ad =
Muscles for=20
their 'activities' but as a person. 
One day, after some fun with the gang, at =
some store=20
owner's ecspence Becky, nicknamed Hardbody by the gang, went up for a =
smoke.=20

"Sir. Target 47 spotted. She has =
separated=20
herself from the group. T minus 2.5 minutes till optimum time of =
aqusition. Your=20
command sir." 
"GO." 
That night 'Hardbody' was need seen or =
heard from=20
since. 
10 years have gone by.  Hardbody has =
spent that=20
time in suspended animation.  A 'prized trophy' in TEV's=20
collection.
Hardbody's welcome to the land of the awake =
was to be=20
surrounded by Aegis.  The new heros of Memphis..
At one of Diablo's outings.  they ran =
into some=20
trouble.   (Called police)  There was gunplay.  =
Hardbody=20
placed herself between an armed gang-member and a disarmed police =
officer. =20
She took the bullets ment for the cop.  The gang called her a =
trator and=20
left.
Hardbody was still wanted for past=20
'transgressions'.   and arrested.  (She was easily=20
restrained.  She was shocked that a team mate would shoot at her, =
even if=20
it was to save a life of a cop).  The gang does not know it but =
without=20
HARDBODY's intervention, the gang could have been wanted  for =
murdering a=20
poilce officer.
 
POWERS 
Becky is a brick. Her special abilities are derived from her metalic =
body.=20
From her mutant physique Becky is stronger and tougher than most people. =

Punching her is like punching a steele plated door. Besides being your =
average=20
Brick. Becky has picked up some skills and contacts while with DIABLO. =
With all=20
her years with nothing but a TV for company Beck knows a bit on TV =
trivia. 
WEAKNESS 
Becky's main weakness is based on her need for loke and acceptance =
and her=20
low self esteem. If her opponent can play on these psychological needs =
of hers=20
it can effect the way she treats them in combat. Physically her body can =
be hurt=20
by magnetic based attacks. But as she matures she is becomming less and =
less=20
affected by magnetic attacks. 
APPEARANCE 
HARDBODY is a 7' 6" tall metalic beauty, she wears a black =
tanktop. Due=20
to her size (And figure) it just keeps her in the Comic code =
regulations. She=20
also wears A pair of black sweats ripped on the bottom so they look like =
shorts.=20
She is bare footed (hard to find women's shoes in her size. 
QUOTE 
"Hi lover. Want to play" </DIV>
<DIV>________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________ IN=20
CHARACTER.  Home of my characters and soon (or later) my BPEM=20
campaign</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.liii.com/~dragon">HTTP://www.liii.com/~dragon</A></FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BE14DE.0A5217C0--

------------------------------

End of champ-l-digest V1 #48
****************************

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