Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 60
Desmarais, John
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 10:10 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #60
champ-l-digest Wednesday, December 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 060
In this issue:
Re: CW
RE: A new player in the arena...
Re: need ninja
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Video Camera
RE: A new player in the arena...
Re: [SACoH] San Angelo
Re: CW patches
RE: A new player in the arena...
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: CHARACTER DESIGN CHECKLIST
Re: Independent Limitation
RE: A new player in the arena...
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: CHARACTER DESIGN CHECKLIST
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: need ninja
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: Independent Limitation
Re: A new player in the arena...
Re: Independent Limitation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:33:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CW
At 02:45 PM 12/2/98 -0500, geoff heald wrote:
>At 06:49 AM 12/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>At 03:09 AM 12/2/98 EST, MWStrong@aol.com wrote:
>>>Where is the creation workshop list?
>>
>cw@mars.galstar.com
My thanks to both you and James (and anyone else who came through). :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:57:22 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: A new player in the arena...
At 10:14 AM 12/2/98 -0600, gilberg@ou.edu wrote:
> Anyway. I need to make it up to Calagary to visit a friend who
>escaped Illinois for that fair city. ("And I leave my entire fortune of 10
>million dollars to the people of Calagary so they can afford to move
>somewhere decent." Name the comedy group and title.) Meanwhile, I escaped
>Illinois for...Oklahoma. I think I got the lesser deal.
The Frantics. It's one of their "Boot to the Head" numbers, and the line
follows "And to my lawyer, who helped me prepare this will, I leave NOT a
boot to the head, but a live rabid Tasmanian devil to be placed in his
trousers."
I've often taken to using "Ed Gruberman" to describe poorly designed martial
artist characters. :]
- --
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- attributed to Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:54:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: need ninja
At 11:44 AM 12/2/98 -0600, Rick Jones wrote:
>I'm going to be throwing a zillion ninja or so against my PC's. Are
>there any good books with pre-generated ninjas (or other sorts of generic
>goons) so I don't have to spend more time with my spreadsheets?
There are some pretty good ninjas in the back of "Watchers of the
Dragon" -- *if* you can get a copy of that.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:01:13 EST
From: Leuszler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent as a
power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
Mike Leuszler
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:46:47 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Video Camera
>> I have an android who can transmit whatever he sees and hears to a
suitable
>> receiver; in other words, he's a TV transmitter. Any idea how to
represent
>> this power in HS terms? Eidetic memory obviously plays a part, but I
can't
>> figure out if Clairsentience fits in somehow.
>> Guy
I agree with a comment made earlier: since High Range Radio Hearing allows
the broadcast of television signals, it should be sufficient. It could be
argued that it doesn't allow the transmission of visual images (though what
else would a television signal be?) in which case you could take High Range
Radio Vision (?).
Extending this thought: HRRV has the ability to transmit, and we are capable
of communicating by sound (speech) or sight (sign language, writing). Maybe
some kind of Transmit power would be appropriate in the senses powers, not
to fool someone as in Images, but only for communication purposes.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:08:28 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: A new player in the arena...
] >Yup, Triumph is 100% Canadian content. Acting as Alex Tribec [also a
] >Canadian] while you yanks take Canadian Music for $800 is loads and
] >loads of fun but it might be off topic and boring the rest
] of the list.
]
] Ya think? It's been kinda dead lately, and since when have we
] stayed on task?
Okay. Fair enough. I like talking game though.
]
] And you're willing to claim Trebec?
Sure, why not? As game show hosts go, he's about the least ridiculous.
Plus, he had a cameo on X-Files with Jesse Ventura. Speaking of which, I
hope Brett Hart will quit rasslin' and become the premier of Alberta.
]
] Anyway. I need to make it up to Calagary
that's Calgary
("And I leave my entire
] fortune of 10
] million dollars to the people of Calagary so they can afford to move
] somewhere decent." Name the comedy group and title.)
I'll guess. It sounds like the Kids in the Hall, Scott Thompson's
character Buddy, who I think was a little too gay for the U.S. audience.
] BTW, Is it snowing in the ghettos of Toronto?
No, it's like 12C [ummm... 55F or so]and brilliantly sunny today. Try
Buffalo for snow.
This is great. I should tour the U.S. giving seminars on Canadian pop
culture. What fun.
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:33:40 EST
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: [SACoH] San Angelo
<< GRG did good with this. I hope that you and the rest of this company can
keep things up to the standard this book has set for your company. Actually, I
hope your product quality goes even beyond this. Keep up the good work. >>
Thank for the kind words. We're very gratified that you've enjoyed the book
thus far. As to quality, I think you'll be very pleased with the quality of
the upcoming supplements. If you're interested, you can catch a glimpse of one
of the illos from Enemies of San Angelo at
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg/panacea.jpg.
Mark @ GRG
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:56:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CW patches
At 01:16 PM 12/2/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>Well, if it's there, it's very well hidden. I looked around for half an
>hour and couldn't find 'em. It's genberally pretty tough to find product
>info there, I think.
On the main page, look for the headline, "Creation Workshop and Hero
Creator Upgraded!" At the spot where it says, "If you already own Creation
Workshop or HERO Creator, you can get an update for free! Just click on
this link," click on the link. That will give you a page full of update
links and instructions on how to use them.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:26:50 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: RE: A new player in the arena...
> ] Anyway. I need to make it up to Calagary
> that's Calgary
Who's talking about Calgary? ; )
> ("And I leave my entire
> ] fortune of 10
> ] million dollars to the people of Calagary so they can afford to move
> ] somewhere decent." Name the comedy group and title.)
> I'll guess. It sounds like the Kids in the Hall, Scott Thompson's
> character Buddy, who I think was a little too gay for the U.S. audience.
Nope. Last line of "Last Will and Temperment(?)", The Frantics.
> ] BTW, Is it snowing in the ghettos of Toronto?
> No, it's like 12C [ummm... 55F or so]and brilliantly sunny today. Try
> Buffalo for snow.
Ah well. It's still a good joke, even if I don't remember exactly
what it was about. Of course, aren't those the best?
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 05:30:00 +1000
From: "Lockie" <jonesl@cqnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> I've neverheard of them, but then again most of my musical interest
>centers on contemporary Christian (mostly Carman and dc Talk) and
classical.
> And yes, Alex *Trebek* is Canadian, as are Rich Little, William Shatner,
>Lenonard Nimoy, Harold Ramis, Dave Thomas (the comic actor, not the Wendy's
>guy), Rick Moranis, Laurie Hibberd, and probably a truckload of other
>celebs of various levels of fame and popularity that just I'm not thinking
>of right now.
> And I agree that this is a bit off topic; the only reason I jumped in at
>all was because you misspelled Alex Trebek's name.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
I have the solution! We need simply construct character sheets for
Alex Trebek, Rich Little, William Shatner,Lenonard Nimoy, Harold Ramis, Dave
Thomas
, Rick Moranis, and Laurie Hibberd! Then we'll be right on topic again!
(actually, I'm happy to listen to talk about canadian music, who knows why.
. )
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:12:38 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: CHARACTER DESIGN CHECKLIST
>
>
>Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but one of the things I've
>wished GM's would check is "does the character 'tread on' another character's
>shtick ? Does the character have something that makes it unique ?"
One of the reasons some GMs do it is that they don't consider
shtick-protection their job. I'll admit the latter part of your statement
is a damn good idea, but as long as there's some reason for both characters
to be around and active, I'm not going to prevent two of them from looking
similar, even if it annoys one of them.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:56:37 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
At 04:01 PM 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent
as a
>power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
Cause if he does, and somebody takes the armor or destroys it (granted a
very unlikely event) he has to pay XPS to get it back, a daunting task for
ANY hero. Usually Independent is used only for Heroic games, to represent
magic items such as wands and other things.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:21:42 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: RE: A new player in the arena...
> The Frantics. It's one of their "Boot to the Head" numbers, and the line
> follows "And to my lawyer, who helped me prepare this will, I leave NOT a
> boot to the head, but a live rabid Tasmanian devil to be placed in his
> trousers."
Yup. Another great line, there.
> I've often taken to using "Ed Gruberman" to describe poorly designed martial
> artist characters. :]
Heh. I've got a sound clip of Yoda meets Ed Gruberman. If
anyone's interested...
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:15:55 EST
From: Leuszler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
In a message dated 12/2/98 6:12:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ctaylor@viser.net
writes:
> Cause if he does, and somebody takes the armor or destroys it (granted a
> very unlikely event) he has to pay XPS to get it back, a daunting task for
> ANY hero. Usually Independent is used only for Heroic games, to represent
> magic items such as wands and other things.
That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe I
should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the limitation?
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:25:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
Leuszler@aol.com wrote:
> How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent as a
> power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
That's why many of 'em use "OIF-Battlesuit". If they tacked on
"Independent", it would mean that a mean bastich of a GM could take the
armor away and they would completely hosed. If it's just a focus, the
focus can be taken away and the PC can get another one.
- --
Rick Jones Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There would
rick@blkbox.com never be another. It changed the future, and it changed us. It
taught us that we had to create the future, or others will do
it for us.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Ivanova,Babylon 5, Sleeping In Light
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:28:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
Leuszler@aol.com writes:
> How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent as a
> power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
C.f. Iron Man -- he's the only one who knows how to use his armor.
(Yeah, I know, that's not strictly true. Hush.) This is fairly common
in the genre. Steel, over in DC, is another example.
If you *want* to build your armor such that any yobbo can use it, you
can. But your GM is then obliged to use this fact against you at least
once in your adventuring career.
- --
Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
[----------------------------------------------------------------------------]
I feed on the flesh of the living -- and I vote.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:08:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
At 04:01 PM 12/2/98 EST, Leuszler@aol.com wrote:
>How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent
as a
>power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
In a physical sense, yes, it is independent of the character; however,
that's what the Focus Limitation is for. If the powered armor had been
bought Independent, then it could not be replaced when stolen or destroyed,
except with the expenditure of more character points.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:10:36 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent
as a
>power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
When Independent is taken on a power, it means that the POINTS become
seperate from the character. If the item is taken or destroyed, the points
and the item are gone for good unless you buy the power again or find the
same or similar item. A focus without this limitation, while being seperate
from the purchasing character, does not cause you to lose the points
invested if you lose the item. You go back and rebuild your powered armor,
or go on a quest to restore your mystic blade, and so on. You are never
actually deprived of the character points, though you may be temporarily
unable to use them.
It's a bit odd, and to me Independent has only dubious levels of usefulness
in a game anyway. What it really says is that you will someday lose the item
and the associated points: otherwise, in what way is it limiting? I don't
tend to use it at all when I run, or very rarely in specific ways.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:00:52 -0500 (EST)
From: tdj723@webtv.net (thomas deja)
Subject: Re: CHARACTER DESIGN CHECKLIST
I see the power overlap thing as a fine line sort of situation--yes,
having overlapping powers might result in players stepping on each
other's places in the campaign, but if the players are good enough, it
can result in some interesting role playing. Hell, I thought my
character in my present sit-down game was stepping on another
character's place, but the characters in question have not only become
close friends, but have used the overlap for their advantage.
"'Remember, Boo-Boo...we only have one weakness."
"What's that, Rat Fink?"
"mmmmm.....Bullets."
--Rat Fink and Boo-Boo, RAT FINK A BOO BOO
____________________________________
THE ULTIMATE HULK, containing the new story, "A Quiet, Normal Life," is
available now from Byron Preiss and Berkley
_______________________________
An except from the new story "My Worst Break Up" can now be found at
MAKE UP YOUR OWN DAMN TITLE
www.freeyellow.com/members/tdj
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:23:25 PST
From: "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 Mike Leuszler wrote:
>
>How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take
independent as a
>power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
>
Generally, no. Part of the tradition of battlesuit characters is that
they are using proprietary technology that only they can
build/use/understand, or the suits are individually calibrated or fitted
to a specific user and are useless for anyone else. Thus, it is not
equally useful for everyone, which is one of the criteria for an
Independent power (I know that a Universal Focus also acheives this
effect, which is why Independent powers are always bought through Foci).
Furthermore, an Independent power literally has "...no connection to the
character in any way." (BBB, p. 108) Thus, if it is destroyed or
stolen, it is essentially irreplaceable. This is almost always
inappropriate in superheroic games, where the wearer of the battlesuit
depends on the suit for most of his effectiveness in combat, and often
out of it. He can usually whip up a copy or grab a replacement out of
cold storage.
There are, of course, situations in which an Independent Battlesuit
would make sense, just as Independent swords & magic potions are
sometimes appropriate, sometimes not. For instance, perhaps the suit is
a high-tech artifact from an alien civilization, and *no one* knows how
it works or how to fix it (especially not the poor shlub who found it in
a crater in his back yard one fateful night). Furthermore, such an
origin could explain how the suit adapts itself to each wearer, thus
making it work for anyone.
Jesse Thomas
haerandir@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:26:49 -0600
From: "Logan" <logand@cyberramp.net>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
Okay. I just couldn't resist. Ladies and Gentlemen -- the "Boot to the Head"
Sketch transcript.
^_^
- -Logan
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------
Boot To The Head
(Song and Transcript)
Said By: Three Guys
Sung By: Gilbert Godfreed
Master: Approach Students, close the circle at the feet of the master,
you have come to me asking i be your guide along the path of
Tae Quan Leap, but be warned, to learn it's ways, you must
learn the ways of your own souls let us meditation this
wisdom now, so.
All: HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Ed: Ahh, sir, sir, sir.
Master: Who disturbs our meditation, as a pebble disturbs the stillness of
the pond?
Ed: Me. Ed Gruberman.
Master: Ed Gruberman?
Ed: Ah, no disrespect or nothin, but like, ahh, how long is this gonna take?
Master: Tae Quan Leap is not a path to a door but a road leading forever
towards the horizon.
Ed: So like what.... An hour or so?
Master: No No we have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gruberman, you must
learn patience.
Ed: Yah Yah, Patience, how long will that take?
Master: Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day.
Ed: A year! I wanna beat people up right now. I got the pajamas HA! WHO!
YAH! HEEEE!
Master: Beat people up?
Ed: Yah just show me those nifty moves so I can start trashing bozos thats
all I came here for. YO! ACK! DAAAA! CAA! AH! SHAA!
Master: The only use of Tae Quan Leap is self defence do you know who Said
that? Key Lo Nee, the grat teacher.
Ed: Yah, well the best defence is a good offence, you know who said that?
Mel the cook on Alice.
Master: Oh, Um, Tae Quan Leap is the wine of purity not the vinegar of
Hostility. Meditate upon this truth with us.
All: HMMMMMMMMMMM
Ed: listen shrimp are you gonna show me some fancy moves or am i gonna
Wiping the walls with you?
Master: Ed Gruberman, you have failed to grasp Tae Quan Leap. Approach me
that you might see.
Ed: Alright, finally some action.
Master: Observe closely class......Boot to the Head *THUMP*
Ed: OWWWWWWWWWWWW you booted me in the head.
Master: You are lucky Ed Gruberman. Few novices experience so much of Tae
Quan Leap so soon.
Ed: Owww
Master: Now we continue.
All: HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Ed: Hey! Hey I wasn't ready, come and get me now shorty. HUH come on are you
chicken?
Master: Boot to the Head *THUMP*
Ed: Oww ok now I'm ready ok now try it now.
Master: Boot to the Head *THUMP*
Ed: Mind if I just lie down here for a minute?
Master: Now class we shall return to our....
Joe: Master?
Master: It is wrong to tip the vessel of knowledge my student.
Joe: Many apologizes Master but I feel Ed Gruberman is not wholly Wrong.
Master: What do you mean?
Ed: ohhhhhhh
Joe: I want to boot some head too.
Master: Have you learned nothing from the lesson of Ed Gruberman?
Joe: Yes master, i have learned two things. First, anger is a weapon only to
be used on ones opponent.
Master: Very Good.
Joe: Secondly, get in the first shot...... Boot to the Head *WHIFF*
Master: You missed.
Joe: Ahh yah. well...
Master: You too shall be honored to learn a lesson.
Joe: You know, you don't have to i can leave, you don't have to you know. I
gotta be going
Master: Boot to the Head *THUMP*
Joe: AUYUHHHHHH
Master: Can anyone tell us what lesson has been learned here?
Jon: Ahhh yes master. Not a single one of us could defeat you.
Master: You Gain Wisdom child.
Jon: So we'll have to gang up on you. come on now get him guys
All: Get em. Get Em
Master: Boot To the Head *THUMP* Boot to the Head *THUMP* Boot to the Head
*THUMP* *THUMP* *THUMP* *THUMP* *THUMP* And now class let us rejoin the mind
to the body and gaze in to the heart of the candle in meditation.
All: HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
People talking in movie shows
people smoking in bed
people voting republican
give them a boot to the head
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH NAH
Mechanics who can't fix a car
politicians who can't think
the sales man who won't leave me alone
the waiter who forgot my drink
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot to the head
NAH NAH
boot-to-the-head
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
Back to Home Page
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:31:11 -0500
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
>Rush is the best band from Canada. Ever.
For my money, it's Men Without Hats. I actually founded their mailing list
over ten years ago. :)
Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:20:11 EST
From: Leuszler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
In a message dated 12/2/98 6:13:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, james@javaman.to
writes:
> It's a bit odd, and to me Independent has only dubious levels of usefulness
> in a game anyway. What it really says is that you will someday lose the
item
> and the associated points: otherwise, in what way is it limiting?
Yeah... That's how I felt about it... But say a character's hunter stole the
suit, then later the suit was recovered?
Mike
------------------------------
Date: 02 Dec 1998 18:51:24 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"L" == Lockie <jonesl@cqnet.com.au> writes:
L> (actually, I'm happy to listen to talk about canadian music, who knows why.
When you get right down to it, I have to admit that I like both kinds of
music:
Rock and Roll.
:)
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
Leuszler@aol.com writes:
>
> That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe I
> should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the limitation?
>
Well, the thing is -- if an item which you buy which isn't independent gets
lost, stolen, or broken, it is expected that you will eventually be able to
recover the item (or get an item with similar effects, or something) -- i.e.
your loss will eventually be recouped. If the item is independent, it's gone
for good, and you've _lost_ any character points put into the item.
In addition, many GMs will feel an unconscious (or conscious) obligation to
steal/destroy the item as soon as possible, so you should _assume_ the item
will be destroyed.
In general, independent items should not be allowed in superhero games.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:23:32 -0500
From: "Marc" <games@nassau.cv.net>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
I see Iron man;s powers as Only In Hero ID.
If his armor is stolen the baddy will not have access to ironman's powers
but neither will he.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bryant Durrell <durrell@innocence.com>
To: Leuszler@aol.com <Leuszler@aol.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>Leuszler@aol.com writes:
>> How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent
as a
>> power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
>
>C.f. Iron Man -- he's the only one who knows how to use his armor.
>(Yeah, I know, that's not strictly true. Hush.) This is fairly common
>in the genre. Steel, over in DC, is another example.
>
>If you *want* to build your armor such that any yobbo can use it, you
>can. But your GM is then obliged to use this fact against you at least
>once in your adventuring career.
>
>--
> Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com []
http://www.innocence.com/~durrell
>
[---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -]
> I feed on the flesh of the living -- and I vote.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:37:40 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>C.f. Iron Man -- he's the only one who knows how to use his armor.
>(Yeah, I know, that's not strictly true. Hush.) This is fairly common
>in the genre. Steel, over in DC, is another example.
>
>If you *want* to build your armor such that any yobbo can use it, you
>can. But your GM is then obliged to use this fact against you at least
>once in your adventuring career.
That's simulated by making the armor Universal, not Independent. Independent
means you lose the points if you lose the item and is a -2 limitation (and
it must be Universal), Universal means the armor is usable by anyone and is
not worth an extra bonus (your friends can use it, too, so it's not worth a
penalty) but the armor can be replaced later at no further cost. VERY
different.
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:21:53 -0500
From: "Marc" <games@nassau.cv.net>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
I like to think of Indipendent power as a unique power. If a character
bought his power through an Indipendent Focus. One the focus is
lost/Stolen/Destroyed. Power is GONE. The character has to EARN the ecp to
pay for a new one and then roll the apropriate skills in order to re-create
it. (I do not let them create the exact same focus. IT WAS UNIQUE.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
To: Leuszler@aol.com <Leuszler@aol.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>Leuszler@aol.com wrote:
>> How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent
as a
>> power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
>
>That's why many of 'em use "OIF-Battlesuit". If they tacked on
>"Independent", it would mean that a mean bastich of a GM could take the
>armor away and they would completely hosed. If it's just a focus, the
>focus can be taken away and the PC can get another one.
>
>--
>Rick Jones Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There
would
>rick@blkbox.com never be another. It changed the future, and it changed
us. It
> taught us that we had to create the future, or others will
do
> it for us.
>http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Ivanova,Babylon 5, Sleeping In Light
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:44:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: need ninja
At 11:44 AM 12/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm going to be throwing a zillion ninja or so against my PC's. Are
>there any good books with pre-generated ninjas (or other sorts of generic
>goons) so I don't have to spend more time with my spreadsheets?
>
Try Ninja Hero; although the 'martial arts thugs' that were supposed to be
there aren't present, the 'Shinobiyama' adventure has two different generic
ninjas you can use. One is based on 100 points, the other on 120 points.
Glen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:35:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Bryant Durrell wrote:
> C.f. Iron Man -- he's the only one who knows how to use his armor.
> (Yeah, I know, that's not strictly true. Hush.) This is fairly common
> in the genre. Steel, over in DC, is another example.
Within the superhero genre, powered armor characters typically have
spare parts, replacement suits, and/or the specs to easily recreate the
armor should it ever be lost. Also, the armor usually has some sort of
built-in security system that keys it to a single user. With these
allowances, the character himself can keep on adventuring regardless of
what happens to his armor. It holds true for Iron Man, Defender, Steel,
etc...
The "Independent" Limitation nukes all of these allowances. The armor is
one of a kind and anyone can use it. If a villain actually manages to
steal or destroy the armor, the character is permanently out of the
superhero biz. That doesn't really keep with the genre, does it? How
often do you have powered armor characters actively campaigning without
some sort of backup or support system? It's for this very reason that the
rules say that "Independent" should be restricted to Heroic campaigns.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Michael "Doc" Hayden -- mhayden@tsoft.com -- http://tsoft.com/~mhayden/
Hey, I use Procmail (with Spam Bouncer), so spam away! (^_^)
"What you are about to see is real. These are not actors; they're directors."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:13:04 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tim Gilberg <gilberg@ou.edu>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
Thanks, but I had it memorized, so...
No bull. I don't remember why, but I memorized it a few...well,
more than a few...years back.
-Tim Gilberg
-"English Majors of the World! Untie!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:32:09 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>That is what his hunters are trying to do... Take away his armor. Maybe I
>should make more than one suit... How do you listers handle the limitation?
Do you expect or intend the character to permanently and irrevocably lose
suits in the course of the game, or will the suits be rebuilt later
(possibly better than the lost one)? Permanently losing it, and the points
that go into making it (making this character fewer points than the other
characters in the game, and thus less powerful) is what is supposed to
happen with Independent. Even when the villains get their hands on it, in
the typical comic book story you do not lose powers and abilities
permanently by losing it.
Do you consider the suit a "signature" item, something very much a part of
your character conception, or is it a throwaway device that is not really
important to the conception? If it's part of the character conception,
especially in a superhero game (and I would argue in others), it should not
be Independent: again, you are going to lose that thing.
Independent means that the points are no longer associated with the
character in any way. The upshot of this is that, in order to be worth a
limitation at all, the character must at some point permanently lose the
item and the points. If it was a 50 point item, your character is now 50
points less than everyone else in the game. If it was a 3 or 4 point item,
no big loss, but comic book armor is generally more.
Comic book example of why Foci are generally not Independent: Iron Man has
had his armor destroyed on multiple occasions. This leaves him helpless for
a time. Also, he has been caught and attacked while not wearing the armor on
a number of occasions, or had it stolen, or other such occurrences. If it
was Independent, he would be a normal human being because he would have sunk
so many points into it that are now gone into nothingness. This is not the
case: instead, he retrieves the armor, or rebuilds it better, or something.
If you want to be able to do this, don't buy it Independent.
If you feel you must have Independent, I suppose you could have multiple
suits. But I strongly advise against it. Another example: I remember a
character that bought all its powers through an Independent OAF: Staff. Very
powerful, but in the very first fight, the staff was taken away. No more
powers, and the character was retired. Don't let this happen to you (even
with 3 suits, all you need is to have it happen 3 times).
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: 02 Dec 1998 20:45:56 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"L" == Leuszler <Leuszler@aol.com> writes:
L> How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take
L> independent as a power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from
L> the player?
Read the description; do not assume what it means based on the name,
because most of the time you will guess badly.
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:22:44 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>(I know that a Universal Focus also acheives this
>effect, which is why Independent powers are always bought through Foci).
Actually, Independent powers have been presented that are not bought through
Foci. For example, one set were ritual scarrings or tattoos that had magical
power invested in them (I think this was in the Fantasy Hero Companion?).
They could still be destroyed and the points would still be lost, say be
cutting the skin they were on so they no longer functioned. The essential
idea of Independent is not that it is Universal, but only that the points
can be permanently taken away. If they are Foci, they must also be
Universal, but they don't necessarily have to be Foci.
I am reasonably sure that that's not the case in the BBB, as I remember it
talking about this being used on a focus only, but extending it to non-foci
does make sense.
>For instance, perhaps the suit is
>a high-tech artifact from an alien civilization, and *no one* knows how
>it works or how to fix it (especially not the poor shlub who found it in
>a crater in his back yard one fateful night). Furthermore, such an
>origin could explain how the suit adapts itself to each wearer, thus
>making it work for anyone.
I would still not take this as Independent. It would be Universal and
Irreplacable (and no force known on Earth could damage it, but the aliens
who made it could destroy it), but otherwise a regular focus. If it is ever
permanently taken from me, it would be done in a dramatic moment and maybe
my character would go through significant changes and re-spend those points
(she mutates from the energies the armor constantly exposed her to, altering
her into an superbeing in her own right...) If I take it Independent, this
option is not open to me, and I will eventually lose all of those points (if
I don't lose them at some point, why am I getting a -2 limitation?).
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:23:33 -0800
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: A new player in the arena...
>When you get right down to it, I have to admit that I like both kinds of
>music:
>
>Rock and Roll.
Hmm, stealing from the Blues Brothers a little?
"We play both kinds here, Country AND Western."
Some Champions content:
"On a Mission from God": 12d6 Luck, only while on mission (-1/2)
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:27:02 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Independent Limitation
>How come none of the powered armor characters in the BBB take independent as a
>power limitation? Aren't the powers independent from the player?
Not in the sense Independent is used for. They're Universal Foci perhaps
(but only perhaps) but remember, Independent Foci can only be replaced by
spending more character points if taken or destroyed. This very rarely
describes superheroic foci. In fact, I don't even permit Independent Foci
in superheroic games; it often gives the GM the 'Gold Kryptonite' problem;
if you ever actually use the Limitation, you may very wlel make the
character hereafter unplayable.
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #60
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