Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 9
Desmarais, John 
From:	owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent:	Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:36 AM 
To:	champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject:	champ-l-digest V1 #8 
 
champ-l-digest        Tuesday, November 3 1998        Volume 01 : Number 008 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: CW questions 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character. 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
    Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character. 
    NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
    Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
    Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
    Senses and Detect 
    Re: Shadow of a Doubt 
    Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
    Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
    Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Off Topic: British Wildlife. 
    Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    PBEM  -  EPIC UNIVERSE - RIO DE JANEIRO 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
    Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:51:31 -0600 
From: "Daniel" <drake01@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: CW questions 
 
From wht i heard is it can be done but it runs a little slow 
 
>>(2) Have any of the Mac users on the list attempted to use Creation 
>>Workshop on a Power Mac running Virtual PC? 
> 
>   I can't help you with that one, being a PC user.  Sorry.  :-] 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:32:21 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
- ---Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> wrote: 
> 
>  
> How would you handle a spell that allowed you to enter into and fiddle 
> with another person's dreams? 
>  
> X-Dim Travel? 
 
Probably not. 
 
  
> Telepathy? 
 
Probably, among other effects. 
 
  
> Something else?  
 
Lots of something elses. 
 
 
"Fiddle with person's dreams" is just a special effect.  Set the SFx 
aside for amoment and think about what the actual game effect you want 
to accomplish is, then choose the appropriate powers to accomplish 
that.  I would imagine that most of the effect end up being Mental 
Powers, but not neccessarily all of them. 
 
What exactly do you want to be the end result of you having fiddled 
with someone's dreams? 
 
 
== 
======================================= 
John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing 
list.  http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
======================================= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:05:05 -0500 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
At 08:32 AM 11/2/98 -0800, John Desmarais wrote: 
>---Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> wrote: 
>> 
>>  
>> How would you handle a spell that allowed you to enter into and fiddle 
>> with another person's dreams? 
>>  
>> X-Dim Travel? 
> 
>Probably not. 
> 
 
Both DC and Marvel have depicted a dream dimension, so this would be one 
good comic-booky approach. I'd only use it if it was appropriate for a 
given campaign, though. 
 
>  
>> Telepathy? 
> 
>Probably, among other effects. 
> 
>  
>> Something else?  
> 
>Lots of something elses. 
> 
 
I'd lean towards Mental Illusions, Only vs. Sleeping Targets (-1). Toss in 
a Mind Scanning, and you have control over the dreams of everyone around you. 
 
> 
>"Fiddle with person's dreams" is just a special effect.  Set the SFx 
>aside for amoment and think about what the actual game effect you want 
>to accomplish is, then choose the appropriate powers to accomplish 
>that.  I would imagine that most of the effect end up being Mental 
>Powers, but not neccessarily all of them. 
> 
>What exactly do you want to be the end result of you having fiddled 
>with someone's dreams? 
> 
 
Knowing what effects you want is always the key consideration in building 
Hero characters. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:55:25 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
>How would you handle a spell that allowed you to enter into and fiddle 
>with another person's dreams? 
> 
>X-Dim Travel? 
> 
>Telepathy? 
 
 
Champions handles most physical effects admirably. While it handles other 
effects just as well, like entering people's dreams, it is sometimes 
necessary to know how dreams are handled in the particular game. Either or 
both of these powers may allow you to enter a person's dream, depending on 
what the GM will allow. 
 
I tend to like Telepathy for this: you are still getting information from 
the person's mind, even if it is in symbolic form, and that is the province 
of that power. The idea that you can be in danger in the dream, or need to 
be "asleep" to use it, are limitations on the power. If, however, I wanted a 
Dreamlands that was an important aspect of the campaign and was easier to 
enter, I'd use XDM. In fact, the campaign universe I'm working on now, which 
is in one of the times of the Hero Universe, will use this instead. 
 
JAJ, GP 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:13:05 -0800 
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
>I wouldn't use "X-Dim Travel" unless the GM says that the "Dream-Time" 
>is a separate dimension. Even then, the player would have to have other 
>powers to affect the dreams. 
 
 
A quibble: that statement is a little too limiting. I could see a GM not 
having a literal Dream-Time dimension in the game but still allowing the 
power XDM to take you into someone's dream, if in all important particulars 
it worked more like XDM than mental powers. That is, if the person is 
interacting with "beings", can be put in actual danger, and so on. It may be 
felt to work out more simply than the comparitively more complex Mental 
Powers. 
 
Everything else I can agree with. I even agree here, especially since you 
said, "[you] wouldn't use", so how can I argue? (-; 
 
JAJ, GP 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 02 Nov 1998 12:39:12 -500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character. 
 
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Hash: SHA1 
 
"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
>> As I said, mortal rules do not apply to angels or the Creator. 
 
F> Which has nothing to do with whether or not deaths ordered by God are 
F> murder, 
 
Uh, Filk?  It has *EVERYTHING* to do with it.  If I kill someone, it is 
murder; if St. Michael kills someone at the Creator's request, it is not. 
The rules that apply to me do not apply to St. Michael. 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 18:02:32  
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 23:18:23 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
 
>How would you handle a spell that allowed you to enter into and fiddle 
>with another person's dreams? 
 
Is this just the SFX or an actual power? If the latter, then Mental 
Illusions. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: 02 Nov 1998 13:29:13 -500 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
"SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> writes: 
 
SN> How would you handle a spell that allowed you to enter into and fiddle 
SN> with another person's dreams? 
 
What are you trying to accomplish by doing so? 
 
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- --  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:28:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: gilberg@ou.edu 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
 
>> X-Dim Travel? 
> 
>Probably not. 
 
        Well, it depends on how you want to define dreams.  Handling them as 
being some alternate dimension would be quite possible.  However, the SFX of 
how going in to change them works would be quite different -- perhaps 
dangerous.  You'd probably need something like CE within that dimension. 
 
 
                                        -Tim Gilberg 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:36:08 -0800 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Disadvantages for an angelic player character. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>"F" == Filksinger  <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>>> As I said, mortal rules do not apply to angels or the Creator. 
> 
>F> Which has nothing to do with whether or not deaths ordered by God are 
>F> murder, 
> 
>Uh, Filk?  It has *EVERYTHING* to do with it.  If I kill someone, it is 
>murder; if St. Michael kills someone at the Creator's request, it is not. 
>The rules that apply to me do not apply to St. Michael. 
 
 
Uh, I think you are misunderstanding me. I _said_ that it wasn't murder when 
done at the Creator's request. The point was that if it isn't murder to kill 
at the Creator's request, then this has nothing to do with whether or not 
_angels_ are bound by the ten commandments, it only means _God_ is not, and 
that angels obeying God are therefore not violating the commandments. 
 
Angels, assuming they have free will, may very well be bound by "Thou shall 
not commit murder". Since killings that are ordained by God are not murder, 
angels may kill millions at the order of God, and it has nothing to do with 
"murder". If, however, an angel has free will, it may freely choose to kill, 
and as the angel made the decision, the restriction "Thou shall not commit 
murder" may well apply. 
 
Filksinger 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:31:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
 
When defining new enhanced senses, presumably the special effect determines  
what stops or blocks the sense, in other words what the sense can not sense 
THROUGH.  So, what stops spatial awareness ?  Does it make sense to buy 
N-ray on spatial awareness ?  what if I had a sense defined as "detect mass, 
discriminatory".  Could I detect a 10 ton boulder buried 5 feet underground ? 
 
Curt   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:55:51 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
 
- --Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> wrote: 
> 
>  
> When defining new enhanced senses, presumably the special effect 
determines  
> what stops or blocks the sense, in other words what the sense can 
not sense 
> THROUGH.  So, what stops spatial awareness ?  Does it make sense to 
buy 
> N-ray on spatial awareness ?   
 
Hmmm, there's a logic flaw here.  N-Ray Vision is not a sense 
modifier, it is a sense unto itself (as opposed to say 
"Discriminatory" or "360 degree" which are modifiers to a sense), so 
no, it does not make sense to buy N-Ray on Spatial Awareness. 
 
> What if I had a sense defined as "detect mass, 
> discriminatory".  Could I detect a 10 ton boulder buried 5 feet 
underground ? 
 
You'd need to make it ranged, and possibly define the sense a little 
better to narrow the scope a bit (Detect Density maybe?) 
 
 
== 
======================================= 
John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing 
list.  http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
======================================= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
 
> 
>When defining new enhanced senses, presumably the special effect determines  
>what stops or blocks the sense, in other words what the sense can not sense 
>THROUGH.  So, what stops spatial awareness ?  Does it make sense to buy 
>N-ray on spatial awareness ?  what if I had a sense defined as "detect mass, 
>discriminatory".  Could I detect a 10 ton boulder buried 5 feet underground ? 
> 
 
I think it varies.  In some cases, the nature of the sense will sense 
through some blocking materials in a limited way, and nothing further is 
required, because what's going to interfere with the sense is more of the 
same information feeding in.  I could probably pick up the boulder in the 
latter case, but bury it a hundred feet down, and all the other dense 
materials in the way would make it like trying to see through progressive 
screens.   
 
On the other hand, for some sorts of Spatial Awareness, adding on N-Ray 
might indeed be necessary. 
 
Sorry about the two copies, Curt; I've been off this list so long I tend to 
forget that it has the individual as a Sent-To rather than the list. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:45:59 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net> 
Subject: Senses and Detect 
 
>> When defining new enhanced senses, presumably the special effect 
>>determines what stops or blocks the sense, in other words what the sense can 
>>not sense THROUGH.  So, what stops spatial awareness ?  Does it make 
sense to 
>>buy N-ray on spatial awareness ?   
> 
>Hmmm, there's a logic flaw here.  N-Ray Vision is not a sense 
>modifier, it is a sense unto itself (as opposed to say 
>"Discriminatory" or "360 degree" which are modifiers to a sense), so 
>no, it does not make sense to buy N-Ray on Spatial Awareness. 
 
I buy NRay as a sense modifier (and tracking scent as one as well) since it 
works well that way.  It helps detects ignore invis, makes certain unusual 
effects very powerful and defines some special effects well.  Of course I 
also treat Touch as a sense group, which makes very odd effects (invisible 
to touch, for example). 
 
 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
- ----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:48:48 +0000 
From: "J. W. Eiler" <jw_eiler@bellsouth.net> 
Subject: Re: Shadow of a Doubt 
 
Date sent:      	Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:22:38 -0500 
To:             	Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From:           	Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject:        	Re: Shadow of a Doubt 
 
> At 03:40 PM 10/31/98 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
> >More to the specific example I have in mind:  a character who  
> >can project a single thought -- "Things are not what they seem.   
> >Doubt your senses."  The actual effect or end result of such  
> >a command would depend on the target and the current situation. 
>  
>  
> Problem solved.  For anyone who's interested, the "Headless 
> Hangman" example in _Justice_Not_Law_ uses a 6d6 Mind Control, 
> Set Effect (flee in terror, -1/2). 
 
Or maybe you could run it as a 4d6 EGO Drain -- SFX would be  
"Confusion." 
 
 
J. W. Eiler 
 
Sorry -- couldn't think of a sufficiently entertaining tagline. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:48:47 +0000 
From: "J. W. Eiler" <jw_eiler@bellsouth.net> 
Subject: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
 
From:           	"James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to> 
To:             	<champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject:        	Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic 
Date sent:      	Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:13:05 -0800 
 
> >I wouldn't use "X-Dim Travel" unless the GM says that the "Dream-Time" 
> >is a separate dimension. Even then, the player would have to have other 
> >powers to affect the dreams. 
>  
>  
> A quibble: that statement is a little too limiting. I could see a GM not 
> having a literal Dream-Time dimension in the game but still allowing the 
> power XDM to take you into someone's dream, if in all important particulars 
> it worked more like XDM than mental powers. That is, if the person is 
> interacting with "beings", can be put in actual danger, and so on. It may be 
> felt to work out more simply than the comparitively more complex Mental 
> Powers. 
 
Hmm. I'd never thought of it that way. Of course then you get into such  
topics as "How real is Dreamtime" in your campaign. 
 
Anybody have any ideas on how they would handle a "Dream  
Dimension?" Would it have its own "monsters," its own different  
environment, its own "rules?" Perhaps, in Dreamtime, "INT" would be  
used as "DEX," and "EGO" as "STR." 
  
> Everything else I can agree with. I even agree here, especially since you 
> said, "[you] wouldn't use", so how can I argue? (-; 
 
<g> That's why being a GM is an art form -- everyone has a different  
"angle" on how to do something. 
 
 
J. W. Eiler 
 
Thought for the day: 
    Dictatorship (n): a form of government under which everything  
    which is not prohibited is compulsory. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:50:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
 
> From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
 
>  
> --Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> wrote: 
> > 
> >  
> > When defining new enhanced senses, presumably the special effect 
> determines  
> > what stops or blocks the sense, in other words what the sense can 
> not sense 
> > THROUGH.  So, what stops spatial awareness ?  Does it make sense to 
> buy 
> > N-ray on spatial awareness ?   
 
John Desmarais  <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
 
>  
> Hmmm, there's a logic flaw here.  N-Ray Vision is not a sense 
> modifier, it is a sense unto itself (as opposed to say 
> "Discriminatory" or "360 degree" which are modifiers to a sense), so 
> no, it does not make sense to buy N-Ray on Spatial Awareness. 
>  
Yep, I know.  I was originally looking at buying N-ray on a new sense, 
but saw that it was for vision only.  This led me to my next question, 
'what blocks enhanced senses' ?  or to put it another way, if I can't use 
my detect mass if there's other masses in the way, what do I buy to  
give the equivalent of N-ray for the vision sense ?   
 
 
Curt  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:54:02 -0800 
From: jayphailey@juno.com (Jay P Hailey) 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
[netrunning] 
 
>I like (and prefer) the X-D move idea. 
 
So Cyberspace is a seperate dimesnion where people can go in Mind only, 
assuming they have the proper OAF. 
 
>> >Possibly, or just Mental Combat with a cyber-spoo special effect. 
> 
>This idea is used in TUM, BTW.  Cybermind is a seperate catagory, I 
>believe. 
>  
>> Oooo. now there'a an Idea.  I like it. 
 
Actually I didn't see lotss about "Cyberspace" in TUM it was more of an 
off handed comment. 
 
 
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> 
 
___________________________________________________________________ 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:30:08 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: NRAY on enhanced senses ? 
 
- ---Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> wrote: 
> 
>  
> Yep, I know.  I was originally looking at buying N-ray on a new sense, 
> but saw that it was for vision only.  This led me to my next question, 
> 'what blocks enhanced senses' ?  or to put it another way, if I 
can't use 
> my detect mass if there's other masses in the way, what do I buy to  
> give the equivalent of N-ray for the vision sense ?   
 
I assume what you're really asking is what blocks Unusual Detects.  
Whatever the special effect dictates. 
 
 
== 
======================================= 
John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
Keeper of the Champions / Hero System mailing 
list.  http://www.sysabend.org/champions 
======================================= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 18:50:46 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
 
>Hmm. I'd never thought of it that way. Of course then you get into such  
>topics as "How real is Dreamtime" in your campaign. 
> 
>Anybody have any ideas on how they would handle a "Dream  
>Dimension?" Would it have its own "monsters," its own different  
>environment, its own "rules?" Perhaps, in Dreamtime, "INT" would be  
>used as "DEX," and "EGO" as "STR." 
 
 
We use a dream dimension -- "Dream World" as we call it -- on  
occasion.  It doesn't have its own "monsters" per se ... but rather 
is populated by the stuff dreams are made of.  That is, anything 
being dreamed by somebody in the "real" world actually exists in the 
Dream World. 
 
The rules in Dream World are pretty loose.  Characters can make  
things happen just by thinking about it.  The thoughts of others 
can combine to assist a mentalist to create larger, more dramatic 
effects.  
 
All powers come under GM control -- they might be useless or might 
be enhanced, depending upon how it would affect the plot.  Other 
than that, things are done pretty much like they would be in the 
real world. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:52:29 -0800 (PST) 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
Wayne Shaw writes: 
 
> >Michael Surbrook writes: 
>  
> >     Reasons to use Hero for doing CP: 1) transgenre games, 2) your 
> >players want to come up with odd things outside the scope of typical 
> >CP games, 3) your players want the tactical options that Hero combat 
> >provides (and are good enough both with the system and as players to 
> >keep from bogging down combat). 
 
     Actually, that was me writing above. 
  
> Don't forget  4) Your players are comfortable with the Hero System, know the 
> mechanics well, and don't see a reason to learn a new system simply to play 
> a new genre.  System portability is often one of the draws of games like 
> Hero and GURPS.           
 
     That's pretty much assumed in (3).  RTG (at least first edition) 
was much simpler and more streamlined, and very quick to learn.  If your 
players know the hero system *really* well, then they'll feel constrained 
in the RTG system, both in tactical terms and in character design.  But 
if they're anything less than experts at the Hero system, I predict the 
game will bog down. 
 
Random Thought: 
 
     Someday I want to actually make and playtest a set of "combat 
cards" for use in hero combat.  These would be cards representing each 
standard combat maneuver (and maybe martial artists) and listing 
cumulative DCV/OCV/etc issues, plus in small print the issues of which 
maneuvers can be used with which other maneuvers, and describing 
ancillary effects.  Maybe even build in the SPD issues, though I 
can't think of any easy way to do this offhand. 
 
     Each player would have a deck customized to only list valid 
maneuvers for the character (i.e. the martial artist probably doesn't 
need the "spread" manuever) and could lay cards down to represent what 
the player is doing.  In theory this would make play go more smoothly 
and keep more "state" on what each player is doing out in plain sight. 
It would also help introduce new players to the game, and might even 
get experienced players to use more of the various optional maneuvers 
and modifiers. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
 
P.S.  Anybody know of a game near Pasadena in Los Angeles?  I'm out 
here visiting for a couple months. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:20:52 -0800 
From: jayphailey@juno.com (Jay P Hailey) 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
>     Of the approaches above, I think I favor using either: a complex 
>set of skill rolls (along with a map of standard stages and tasks in 
>cyberspace) for a regular game, along with good storytelling, in which 
>case cyberspace takes about the same role that "lab work" or some 
>other skill-based area takes.  Or using a subset of the hero rules to 
>define the physics of the cyberspace dimension and see how you can 
>play with that.  In practical terms, though, the latter course means 
>the game is all about cyberspace.  Which can be fun enough in its own 
>right. 
> 
>Steven J. Owens 
>puff@netcom.com 
 
Thank you for a well thought out essay there Mr. Owens.   I will 
carefully consider the points you make. 
 
 
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> 
 
___________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:51:53 -0800 
From: jayphailey@juno.com (Jay P Hailey) 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
>	Where I to not use Cyber Hero to do the genre (I'm in the  
>minority that likes the book); I'd choose GURPS. Better researched world 
info  
>and it's not a character class based system like CP 2.0.2.0. 
> 	Though GURPS' adaptation of the genre has serious play  
>balance problems if you allow any armor or guns... and not allowing them 
would  
>be odd given the genre. 
>	Though it can be worked out if you watch every piece of  
>equipment allowed in the game. Which was not as hard to do as it sounds. 
 
Well our Vista City game is a "proto" CyberPunk setup.  The tecnnology 
and the social trends are in the early phases of heading that way.  So 
there is no Cyberspace per say, but there is the Internet and whatever 
that will morph into as we go along. 
 
If I were to try and run a straight cyberpunk game I would probably steal 
a grewat deal of the setting and background fro CP 2020, and use the Hero 
system. 
 
But then I prefer the Hero system for everything.  I also own GURPS 
Cyberpunk.  I would do a carefull side by side comparison of the two 
Cyberspace systems for which one I would steal and use. 
 
 
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> 
 
 
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------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 18:15:23 -0600 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Subject: Off Topic: British Wildlife. 
 
I watched the live action 101 Dalmations the other night. I have a 
question for the British memebers of the list. 
 
The movie featured a group of Racoons helping the puppies escape. And 
since the movie takes place in England, I was wondering if there are any 
Racoons living wild in England now. 
 
Racoons are native to North America only. But it isn't unlikely that a 
few have been transplanted. 
 
Tim Statler 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 20:28:19 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
 
>>Hmm. I'd never thought of it that way. Of course then you get into such  
>>topics as "How real is Dreamtime" in your campaign. 
>> 
>>Anybody have any ideas on how they would handle a "Dream  
>>Dimension?" Would it have its own "monsters," its own different  
>>environment, its own "rules?" Perhaps, in Dreamtime, "INT" would be  
>>used as "DEX," and "EGO" as "STR." 
 
One resource for "comic-book" dreams in "Champions in 3-D". 
 
I'm still debating whether to use a Dreamworld or Telepathy and Mental 
Illusions. 
 
Since so many people asked in response to my original question, 'fiddling with 
dreams' is -not- a SFX.  It -is- what I'm trying to do.  Not drain or 
attack or 
anything else.  Just interact with someone's dreams. 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
For in far foreign fields, from Dunkirk to Belgrade, 
Lie the soldiers and chiefs of the Irish Brigade. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:24:28 -0800 (PST) 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
How do the GMs out there handle Cyberware and Implants? The system used in 
Cyberhero has been pretty much univerally panned on the list so I was 
looking from some alternatives.  
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 01:06:43 -0200 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br> 
Subject: PBEM  -  EPIC UNIVERSE - RIO DE JANEIRO 
 
io de Janeiro, a city full of Glamour... In the past it was the best place to visit and get some nice escaped of the winter. The all year suynny weather and the good humour of the people gave the fame of the city.  But bout the last 20 years the egun take control of the life of the city.  Not content, a strange event hapened and a gate for other worlds was found at Floresta da Tijuca Park (the largest urban florest over the world).  The presence of Demon was sensed when the press discovered he was a Mandchurian candidate. Now a millionaire take a decision to create a super group to protect and serve.  
 
IMPORTANCE OF THE PC¹S:  Important, they are members of the 1st super hero group at this country. 
 
CAMPAIGN TONE:  It is a 4 colour with some colors going to darker colors. Imagine this game like X-Men. The balance of both tones is the soul of the game.  
 
	Morality:  Some cross-over between Good and Evil 
 
	Realism:  Neutral 
 
	Outlook:  Sometimes the Good Guys lose   
 
	Seriousness: Not so funny game... 
 
	Continuity:  Mostly episodic, with some continuing stories 
 
PHYSICAL WORLD (DESCRIPTION):  The game will be set in Rio Janeiro and the states around.  
 
CHARACTER BUILIDING GUIDELINES: 
 
	Starting Points for PC¹s:  100 
 
	Maximum Disadvantage Points for PC¹s:  150 
 
	Maximum Points From One Disadvantage Category:  50 
 
	Characters Automatically Have Characteristic Maxima Disadvantage At No Point Value:  No 
 
	Characters Can Carry Normal Technology at Costing nothing:  Yes 
 
	Power Levels:  
 
- -Maximus damage level:12 N 
- -Maximum defense:20N/10r 
- -Maximum active points:65  
- -Maximum skill roll at the start of the game:16- 
 
CAMPAIGN RULES: 
 
	Combat Uses Hit Locations Table:  Yes  
	Disabling/Impairing Rules Used:  Yes 
 
	Knockdown Rules Used:  No 
 
	Knockback Rules Used:  Yes 
 
	Long-Term Endurance Rules Used:  Yes 
 
	Limited Push:  No 
 
 
What you need to do your character: 
 
	Skills:  Required:  Modern Everyman Package, Language Portuguese (if you aren't native or English if you are native) 
 
		Recommended:  None 
 
		Not Recommended:  None   
 
		Disallowed:  None 
 
		Talents:  Required:  None 
 
		   Recommended:  None 
 
		Powers:  Required:  None 
 
		  Recommended:  None 
 
		  Not Recommended (GM¹s permission required):  Absorption; Aid; Drain and Transfer. 
 
		  Disallowed:  Damage Reduction above 25% (unless limited to a single SFX) 
 
	Disadvantages:  Required:  None 
 
			  Recommended:  Normal Characteristic Maxima; Code vs. Killing (10 points); Secret Identity 
 
			  Not Recommended:  Berserk; Public Identity 
 
			  Disallowed:  None 
 
Back ground suggestions and note: 
 
For the people who have plans to be Brazilian character I suggest you go to Alta vista translator service to translate the characters action name's for portuguese.   
 
    Here the native language is portuguese and for us it sound like a offense you come to our country and conmfuse us with the rest of Latin America. We are the largest Portuguese speaking nation and we are proud of it... (and Spanish sounds a bit dull for us). 
 
   The persons names are based at Portuguese (of course), Italian (we have the second largest Italian colony over the world), French (in the past was chic speak french) and sometimes Japonese (we have the largest Japonese colony over the world). The last names are more based Portuguese (doh!),Spanish,Italian and even Germany (we have a significant number of germany descedents living at the south region of the country) and other Europe countries. 
 
 
========== 
 
All the mankind is made by 3 basic principles:Duality,morality and mortality 
 
Electric Avatar 
Rafael Sant' Anna Meyer 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:36:51 -0600 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
> From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com> 
 
<snip> 
 
> Random Thought: 
>  
>      Someday I want to actually make and playtest a set of "combat 
> cards" for use in hero combat.  These would be cards representing each 
> standard combat maneuver (and maybe martial artists) and listing 
> cumulative DCV/OCV/etc issues, plus in small print the issues of which 
> maneuvers can be used with which other maneuvers, and describing 
> ancillary effects.  Maybe even build in the SPD issues, though I 
> can't think of any easy way to do this offhand. 
>  
>      Each player would have a deck customized to only list valid 
> maneuvers for the character (i.e. the martial artist probably doesn't 
> need the "spread" manuever) and could lay cards down to represent what 
> the player is doing.  In theory this would make play go more smoothly 
> and keep more "state" on what each player is doing out in plain sight. 
> It would also help introduce new players to the game, and might even 
> get experienced players to use more of the various optional maneuvers 
> and modifiers. 
 
We are using a modified version of this kind of thing for FH right now, and 
have been since '92.  We don't have a card for every maneuver, but we do 
have one card for every weapon, with all the typical maneuvers listed.  
Each card is custom designed for the player.  (We use a Word '97 page, 
divided into four cards.)  As far as SPD is concerned, I heartily recommend 
using an action die instead.  Not quite what you are saying, but it does 
accomplish exactly the goals you state in the second paragraph.   
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:40:30 -0600 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Subject: Re: Dream Dimension (was: Re: Fantasy Hero Dream Magic) 
 
> From: J. W. Eiler <jw_eiler@bellsouth.net> 
 
<snip> 
> Anybody have any ideas on how they would handle a "Dream  
> Dimension?" Would it have its own "monsters," its own different  
> environment, its own "rules?" Perhaps, in Dreamtime, "INT" would be  
> used as "DEX," and "EGO" as "STR." 
 
In my Fantasy Hero version of TSR's Forgotten Realms, I've gone the other 
direction, so to speak.  Instead of the "Dream Dimension" being just 
dreams, or it's own special dimension, it is merely a small part of the 
Astral Plane. 
 
This fits in very well with standard Realms mythology, where, among other 
things, the Astral plane provides a barrier between the prime plane and 
other planes, whence dreams come.  A physical traveler in the astral plane 
could encounter a dream and vice versa.  Likewise, particularly good or bad 
dreams can have physical effects on the dreamer and others.  That's why the 
"powers' often communicate with dreams. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:09:01 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
>How do the GMs out there handle Cyberware and Implants? The system used in 
>Cyberhero has been pretty much univerally panned on the list so I was 
>looking from some alternatives.  
 
Personally, in heroic scale games, I just consider them equipment like any 
other.  Fact they require surgery to apply implies some possible 
complications, but other than that I don't see any reason in a non-superhero 
setting to treat a cyber eye any different than I do a set of vision 
enhancing goggles. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:35:18 -0800 (PST) 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Cyber-Hero 
 
I wrote: 
> >      Someday I want to actually make and playtest a set of "combat 
> > cards" for use in hero combat.  These would be cards representing each 
> > standard combat maneuver (and maybe martial artists) and listing 
> > cumulative DCV/OCV/etc issues, plus in small print the issues of which 
> > maneuvers can be used with which other maneuvers, and describing 
> > ancillary effects.  Maybe even build in the SPD issues, though I 
> > can't think of any easy way to do this offhand. [...] 
 
Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes: 
> We are using a modified version of this kind of thing for FH right now, and 
> have been since '92.  We don't have a card for every maneuver, but we do 
> have one card for every weapon, with all the typical maneuvers listed.  
> Each card is custom designed for the player.  (We use a Word '97 page, 
> divided into four cards.) 
 
     Sounds like a good way to organize the player's weapon info, but 
I was thinking more of a way to help the player (and the GM) track the 
actual flow of combat.  I.e. the player decides to dodge, lays down a 
"dodge" card, which shows the plus to the DCV in big bold letters in 
one corner (and maybe in smaller letters shows the player's adjusted 
DCV, assuming the dodge is the only maneuver card down).  The card 
stays down for the length of the player's phase.  The GM can recall, 
just by glancing at the player, what the player was doing and what the 
current combat values, etc, are. 
 
     To choose a more complex example, the player makes a half-move, 
lays down the half-move card (it's been a while, but if I recall 
correctly, that's a -1 to OCV).  Then the player lays down an attack 
card, say an offensive blow, which has additional OCV and DCV 
modifiers.  The cards stay down until the beginning of the player's 
next phase.  The GM can tell the cumulative OCV/DCV/etc by glancing at 
the player and also can recall what the player was doing. The novice 
player can tell just by glancing at the cards whether he's allowed to 
abort out or not, etc. 
 
> As far as SPD is concerned, I heartily recommend 
> using an action die instead.  Not quite what you are saying, but it does 
> accomplish exactly the goals you state in the second paragraph.   
 
     Using an action die is a good idea, but I was thinking more of 
building the SPD into the cards.  I'm still not sure how to pull this 
off, but I have vague ideas of, for example, the card listing the 
phases on which it can be played and when it goes away, or perhaps 
some other way of looking at the SPD system which preserves the 
mathematical integrity but is more visually accessible. 
 
     Personally, one of the flaws in the hero combat system I've 
always been aware of is the "stutter" of combat SPD.  Realistically 
actions are a smooth progression.  I realize the hero system is a good 
compromise between playability (or just sheer feasibility) and 
realism, but it'd be interesting to come up with alternatives.  Here's 
an example alternative off the top of my head: 
 
     Actions take a certain number of fractions of a second, modified 
by the character's SPD.  Each action has a number of fractions to 
commit, and a number of fractions of followup.  The followup has good 
and bad alternatives.  The action has to continue long enough for the 
commit in order to get the effect (i.e. strike or grab or whatever). 
If the action is interrupted by another character before the followup 
is finished, however, there are negative consequences (worse DCV 
minus after the strike, or weakened the grab, etc). 
 
     This kind of thing is, of course, annoyingly complicated and 
awkward, but I wonder if some such system might become feasible with 
the introduction of maneuver cards or some other playing aid.  This is 
not a fully fleshed out concept, so I don't expect it to stand up 
under rigorous examination, but I would like to hear ideas, opinions, 
etc. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #8 
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