Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 90
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 5:02 AM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #90
champ-l-digest Monday, December 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 090
In this issue:
Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: (Force Field Reversed)
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
Re: Character Comparisons
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: combat drones
Re: Character Comparisons
RAVEN appearances
Re: RAVEN appearances
Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
Re: RAVEN appearances
Re: RAVEN appearances
Re: RAVEN appearances
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: RAVEN appearances
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Re: RAVEN appearances
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 11:22:21
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:06:13 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>Still working on FH spells. Still encountering questions.
>
>The description of the "Usable Against Others" advantage mentions that it
>includes inanimate objects, and gives an example of being able to teleport
>inanimate objects away if that power were bought with this advantage. This
>implies to me that the designers intended this passage as an example of how
>to create an offensive power with this advantage.
>
>There is no mention of inanimate objects under the "Usable By Others"
>advantage; it mentions only characters. How, after all, would an inanimate
>object -use- a power like teleport?
How about a sword which can teleport to its owner's hand if within a
certain distance? How about a Gate?
>Now, let us suppose I wanted to build a magic, fiery rock (I don't, but play
>along). I would use the Focus limitation on an energy blast, like this:
>
>6d6 Energy Blast, Explosion, No Range, Obvious Accessible Focus,
>0 Endurance, Persistant.
>
>The power is not "usable" by the rock. The rock is merely the focus of the
>power. Come near, the rock, get burned.
>
>But what about powers requiring Line of Sight?
>
>I want to build a power that will cause people to pay no attention to the
>inanimate object that the subject of the power (that's right, all you
>grammarians - the object is the subject). It isn't invisible; people can
>see and remember it - just not well. They pay no attention to it without
>strong reason.
Mind Control, AOE: Radius, at +20 Level Single Command 'Pay no
attention me'
>I'd like to buy it thusly:
>
>7d6 Mind Control, Telepathic Command (Ignore Me), Obvious Accessible
>Focus, 0 End Persistant.
Should have read ahead :}. Just add in AOE:Radius
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:59:57 -0500
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Thanks for the ideas so far.
> You're getting special effect and power mixed up.
Actually, I'm not. This is why it's making my head hurt. :-) There really
is no Power to match what she wants.
My initial suggestion to her was to consider a Force Wall. She didn't like
it, because of its all or nothing nature, combined with the fact that the
Transparent Advantage is bi-directional.
Entangle doesn't work here, because the Power itself does not match the
special effects.
Suppress is much closer, and might be the answer, but also has problems too.
First, it requires a die roll to determine how effective it is (a very minor
problem). Second, I don't think that "All Attacks" is a Power or Special
Effect. With a base Suppress, your affecting a single power. With
Advantages, you can affect any single Power of a given Special Effect or
even all Powers of a given Special Effect.
I suppose one could make this a four part Power, using Suppress, where one
component is a Suppress against EB, one is a Suppress against HA, one is a
Suppress against HKA and the last a Suppress against RKA. It would require
one attack roll, and for Simplicities sake, I could let her roll the dice
for one component, and have that value count for each one ... or even let
her fix it at the average roll.
Still, I think this would be pretty expensive. One possibility would be to
break this down into a multi Power, where each component was a variable
slot. She could then at least tailor her attack to the target in specific,
and it wouldn't cost so much.
BTW: I am in the camp that says multiple Powers can be combined into a
single attack, without the use of Link, so the above "component" approach
works in my campaign.
From a different point of view, I guess I could allow the "All Powers of a
given Special Effect" Advantage, and bend the idea of Special Effect to say
that the Special Effect is any attack that causes PD or ED based damage.
> Does this mean that she expects the target to take maximum damage
> from any incoming attack? If so, I wouldn't allow that, in part because
> it's not justified by the simple reversal of the Force Field.
Not at all. She wants all attacks against the target to affect the target
normally. Any attacks (of a PD/ED nature) launched by the target would be
reduced in effect by the amount of the Force Field. She simply wants to
turn her force field inside out.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:51:27 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Miss Litella...Miss Litella...Emily...
Yes?
He said "such that if she puts it around a person, all their attacks are
affected by the force field, but attacks targeted on this person would hit
at full strength." Not "she expects the target to take maximum damage from
any incoming attack."
Oh?
I'm afraid you've misunderstood again.
She doesn't want an attack power?
No.
Oh. Well, that's very different, then. Never mind...
Please disregard everything I said about the dleiF ecroF. Once people
started talking about Entangle and Suppress, I went back and read Michael
Sprague's original query more carefully. I was *way* off in left field on
this one. :)
Damon
At 10:18 PM 12/12/1998 -0500, Michael Sprague wrote:
>Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming, while
>allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power. In the future, she would
>like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, .
>
>On one hand I am trying to explain why the power doesn't work that way, but
>on the other hand, it does sort of make sense. Obviously, one would need
>the "Usable Against Others" advantage. And for that matter, there is
>nothing to stop the target from moving out of the targeted hex.
>
>To actually do this, I think she would use a Multi Power, with two slots,
>one for each specific use.
>
>Anyway, I'm torn on the issue. We did tell her to come up with what she
>wanted, and we could make it work. What would you do or suggest?
>
>~ Mike
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:10:14 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: (Force Field Reversed)
At 09:59 AM 12/13/1998 -0500, Michael Sprague wrote:
>Suppress is much closer, and might be the answer, but also has problems too.
>First, it requires a die roll to determine how effective it is (a very minor
>problem). Second, I don't think that "All Attacks" is a Power or Special
>Effect. With a base Suppress, your affecting a single power. With
>Advantages, you can affect any single Power of a given Special Effect or
>even all Powers of a given Special Effect.
What if you applied the Variable Special Effects Advantage as well? At the
+1/2 level, the Special Effect for a Power can be anything. Wouldn't
Suppress, "All Powers of a given Special Effect" (+2), "Special Effect can
be anything" (+1/2) cover that second problem?
As for the first problem, perhaps one part of my earlier, off-base
suggestion is salvageable: Buy a number of dice worth of Suppress equal to
the points in the Force Field, and apply the Limitation "Only 1 pip of
Suppress per die" (-2). No die roll involved, the dleiF ecroF will
automatically Suppress a number of points equal to what the Force Field
normally absorbs.
>>From a different point of view, I guess I could allow the "All Powers of a
>given Special Effect" Advantage, and bend the idea of Special Effect to say
>that the Special Effect is any attack that causes PD or ED based damage.
Given that Special Effects are only permitted to include minor advantages
and limitations, things too small to be covered by real Advantages and
Limitations, I don't think you can legitimately call "causes PD or ED based
damage" a Special Effect.
Damon
wondering what I missed *this* time :)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:43:03 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
>Thanks for the ideas so far.
>
>> You're getting special effect and power mixed up.
>
>Actually, I'm not. This is why it's making my head hurt. :-) There really
>is no Power to match what she wants.
>
>Suppress is much closer, and might be the answer, but also has problems too.
>First, it requires a die roll to determine how effective it is (a very minor
>problem). Second, I don't think that "All Attacks" is a Power or Special
>Effect. With a base Suppress, your affecting a single power. With
>Advantages, you can affect any single Power of a given Special Effect or
>even all Powers of a given Special Effect.
This isnt a problem, just use the "reliable" modifier (a +0 modifier) that
makes the dice always come up 3's, and result in a number you know every
time (thus negating the roll entirely). I use this for Aid spells in
Fantasy Hero all the time.
You can use all attacks as a special effect if you, the GM, decide it is
acceptible, which Im sure you are aware of. Id make it a fairly expensive
advantage, (+1 in my opinion, see below), but it works fine, and develops
exactly the result you are looking for. The other option is to use a
stacked 2 layer Suppress that is KA/Energy Blast, which would be roughly
the same cost as the +1 advantage on Suppress. This is going to be an
expensive power, but it should be.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:55:56 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:59:57 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the ideas so far.
>
>> You're getting special effect and power mixed up.
>
>Actually, I'm not. This is why it's making my head hurt. :-) There really
>is no Power to match what she wants.
>
>
>My initial suggestion to her was to consider a Force Wall. She didn't like
>it, because of its all or nothing nature, combined with the fact that the
>Transparent Advantage is bi-directional.
>
You could create a new advantage; "Transparent to Attacks Directed at
the Target Only". This would be more expensive than the normal
Transparent advantage, though.
>Entangle doesn't work here, because the Power itself does not match the
>special effects.
Even if you use the Takes no Damage From Attacks advantage?
>
>Suppress is much closer, and might be the answer, but also has problems too.
>First, it requires a die roll to determine how effective it is (a very minor
>problem). Second, I don't think that "All Attacks" is a Power or Special
>Effect. With a base Suppress, your affecting a single power. With
>Advantages, you can affect any single Power of a given Special Effect or
>even all Powers of a given Special Effect.
You could create an even more expensive advantage that says Affects
All Attacks, but it would probably IMO be at least a +3 advantage.
>
>>From a different point of view, I guess I could allow the "All Powers of a
>given Special Effect" Advantage, and bend the idea of Special Effect to say
>that the Special Effect is any attack that causes PD or ED based damage.
That sounds like you're giving the player something not intended in
the rules, though. I'd bump up that +2 advantage cost for something
that widespread.
>Not at all. She wants all attacks against the target to affect the target
>normally. Any attacks (of a PD/ED nature) launched by the target would be
>reduced in effect by the amount of the Force Field. She simply wants to
>turn her force field inside out.
That still sounds like a Force Wall more than a Force Field.
John Lansford
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:30:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
At 10:18 PM 12/12/98 -0500, Michael Sprague wrote:
>A new player in our group is creating her first character, and she has an
>idea that makes my head hurt.
>
>She want's a Force Field, 1 Hex Area Effect, Ranged, and Usable by Others.
>This way she can protect herself and/or others at range. I can live with
>this.
>
>Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming, while
>allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power. In the future, she would
>like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, such that if she puts it
>around a person, all their attacks are affected by the force field, but
>attacks targeted on this person would hit at full strength.
>
>On one hand I am trying to explain why the power doesn't work that way, but
>on the other hand, it does sort of make sense. Obviously, one would need
>the "Usable Against Others" advantage. And for that matter, there is
>nothing to stop the target from moving out of the targeted hex.
>
>To actually do this, I think she would use a Multi Power, with two slots,
>one for each specific use.
>
>Anyway, I'm torn on the issue. We did tell her to come up with what she
>wanted, and we could make it work. What would you do or suggest?
I think that your instincts are mostly correct here: the effect she
wants can be done with Force Field, Usable Against Others At Range
(+1-1/2). Remember, though, that an Advantage of this will greatly reduce
the effectiveness of the Power; what would be a 30/30 Force Field without
Advantages, becomes 12/12 with a +1-1/2 applied.
The character may be better off going with a Force Wall, as many other
list members will no doubt recommend; she gets the same 12/12, but a lot
more utility in the package. The only drawbacks are that it would affect
incoming attacks as well, and should the target do more than 12 BODY with
an attack it goes down until the PC's next phase.
Either way, a Multipower is a good idea, though I wouldn't consider it
100% necessary (depending on the Special Effect).
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:09:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hayden <mhayden@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Scott Nolan wrote:
> But what about powers requiring Line of Sight?
Indirect, ne?
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Hey, I use Procmail (with Spam Bouncer), so spam away! (^_^)
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:38:35 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
At 03:06 AM 12/13/1998 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>Still working on FH spells. Still encountering questions.
>
>I want to build a power that will cause people to pay no attention to the
>inanimate object that the subject of the power (that's right, all you
>grammarians - the object is the subject). It isn't invisible; people can
>see and remember it - just not well. They pay no attention to it without
>strong reason.
The Fantasy Hero Companion includes a spell called Obscure. It's sort of
like an Invisibility spell, but it doesn't make the mage impossible to see,
just difficult to notice. It's based on Images. For your purposes, what's
wrong with:
Images (vs. sight), -5 to the viewer's PER Roll (25 AP), 0 END +1/2,
Persistent +1/2, Only to appear unworthy of notice -1. Real Cost: 25.
Okay, UBO doesn't come into play here, nor does Focus but is that
necessary? Mage casts a spell to make a large ironbound trunk look like a
cheap wood crate. The Image thus created is Persistent, so it'll continue
to look like a cheap crate to whoever comes along unless the spell is
Suppressed or purposely turned off my the mage.
Hmmm...is Range the issue here, the one requiring the object be the source
of the Power? Would the Image cease to be effective once the mage moved
out of the Image's range (125", based on the description above)?
In some ways it sounds like what you want to do is create a magic item
whose only Power is to make itself look ordinary. But you want to use a
spell to temporarily turn *any* object into an item with this Power.
Tricky...
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:42:10 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: Character Comparisons
> I obviously disagree. There is too much possibility in Hero for a simple
> formula to accurately approxmate all characters' combat potential. There
> are simply too many 'breaking pitches'.
True, that's why I like to think of the "Rules" of X as Guidelines of X.
They can't be any more than that, and shouldn't be used as hard and fast
rules. Why call them "rules"? Would you buy a book called the
"Guidelines of Acquisition"? :)
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:13:25 -0500
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Following are my comments on the various comments that have been made. In
general, I have found every post to contain useful ideas, but it would be
too much effort to post a reply to each one.
From Damon:
>> From a different point of view, I guess I could allow the "All Powers of
a
>> given Special Effect" Advantage, and bend the idea of Special Effect to
say
>> that the Special Effect is any attack that causes PD or ED based damage.
>
> Given that Special Effects are only permitted to include minor advantages
> and limitations, things too small to be covered by real Advantages and
> Limitations, I don't think you can legitimately call "causes PD or ED
based
> damage" a Special Effect.
I agree, which is why I don't really like this method.
> What if you applied the Variable Special Effects Advantage as well?
> At the +1/2 level, the Special Effect for a Power can be anything.
> Wouldn't Suppress, "All Powers of a given Special Effect" (+2), "Special
> Effect can be anything" (+1/2) cover that second problem?
Keep in mind that what she is looking for is four specific powers (EB, HA,
HKA and RKA) with any special effect. The Variable Special Effect Advantage
might work here, and is worth another look, but she really doesn't need "Any
Power of a given Special Effect".
From Christopher Taylor:
> just use the "reliable" modifier (a +0 modifier) that makes the dice
always
> come up 3's, and result in a number you know every time (thus negating
> the roll entirely).
I like this idea. Of course, 3 means something different if your talking
about a normal attack vs. a killing attack ... but I am not sure it would
matter a lot. I would have to think about it more.
> You can use all attacks as a special effect if you, the GM, decide it
> is acceptable, which Im sure you are aware of. Id make it a fairly
> expensive advantage, (+1 in my opinion, see below),
Note that the Suppress Advantage I was speaking of warping is already a +2.
From John Lansford:
> She could purchase Force Wall, and then an Indirect advantage on
> her offensive powers. This would allow her to keep them from firing
> while she attacks them from an opposite direction.
Again, Force Wall does not work well, because of its "all or nothing"
nature, and the fact that the Transparent Advantage is bi-directional. I
would have to create a new Advantage to solve the bi-directional problem,
leaving the "all or nothing" part as still being a problem.
As far as the Indirect Advantage, this would work okay for her own attack
powers, but she wants it to work for everyone's attack powers. Thus,
Indirect really doesn't work well.
>> Entangle doesn't work here, because the Power itself does not match the
>> special effects.
>
> Even if you use the Takes no Damage From Attacks advantage?
I suppose Entangle might work, if it were the "barrier" sort instead of the
"restraining" sort. This would solve the bi-directional problem within the
framework of the existing rules, but still has the "all or nothing" problem
of the Force Wall
From Bob Greenwade:
> I think that your instincts are mostly correct here: the effect she
> wants can be done with Force Field, Usable Against Others At Range
> (+1-1/2). Remember, though, that an Advantage of this will greatly reduce
> the effectiveness of the Power; what would be a 30/30 Force Field without
> Advantages, becomes 12/12 with a +1-1/2 applied.
Keep in mind that she already wants 1 hex Area Effect, and Usable By Others.
This will not be cheap to start with, but what she want's to do is
substitute "Usable On Others" for "Usable By Others", turn the Force Field
inside out, and keep everything else the same.
> Either way, a Multipower is a good idea, though I wouldn't consider it
> 100% necessary (depending on the Special Effect).
If I did allow her to swap Advantages and turn it inside out, Variable
Advantage, limited to those two would probably be the way I would go.
If they were two different powers, then I would suggest the Multi-power with
ultra slots. This would make it a single power with two different uses.
Side Note: As a player and especially as a GM, I prefer the use of
Multi-Power to reflect a single power that has several/many different uses.
You pay slightly more than the cost of a single Power, and get a big savings
because the rest are sort of redundant.
~ Mike
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:54:05 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: combat drones
> Think that if you want, but the rulebook is quite specific: the GM writes
> up *ALL* Followers, regardless of origin, just as he does DNPCs.
And therefore has every right to "farm out" the work to players if that
seems appropriate.
JAJ, GP
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 04:50:19 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Character Comparisons
>> I obviously disagree. There is too much possibility in Hero for a simple
>> formula to accurately approxmate all characters' combat potential. There
>> are simply too many 'breaking pitches'.
>
>True, that's why I like to think of the "Rules" of X as Guidelines of X.
>They can't be any more than that, and shouldn't be used as hard and fast
>rules. Why call them "rules"? Would you buy a book called the
>"Guidelines of Acquisition"? :)
Actually, I think it is, indeed, a rule. Rules can have exceptions made for
them, after all. And I've really found very little need to mess with this
one other than refining it a bit. The only case I had to was a player who
had some Absorption with a very narrow special effect, where the
contribution to his DefX was obvsiously out of preportion to it's utility.
But other than that, the formula and the character's observed utility (when
played properly) was a pretty close match. And it allowed me to permit
mostly free choice on how the characters grew within that framework without
having to reassess them constantly.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:29:23 EST
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Subject: RAVEN appearances
I know RAVEN was in Super-Agents and Eye For An Eye, but do they show up
in any other Hero books?
Leah
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:21:50 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
At 04:29 PM 12/13/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>I know RAVEN was in Super-Agents and Eye For An Eye, but do they show up
>in any other Hero books?
Since RAVEN's half-page writeup in CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE notes that they were
secretly taken over by VIPER in the late '70s (RAVEN is now just a funding
source for VIPER), you'd expect there'd be some mention of them in the
VIPER sourcebook. I don't think there is, though. OTOH, I didn't read the
VIPER book cover to cover in the few minutes since getting this message. ;)
Damon
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:41:27 -0500
From: Indiana Joe <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
>At 03:06 AM 12/13/1998 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
>>Still working on FH spells. Still encountering questions.
>>
>>I want to build a power that will cause people to pay no attention to the
>>inanimate object that the subject of the power (that's right, all you
>>grammarians - the object is the subject). It isn't invisible; people can
>>see and remember it - just not well. They pay no attention to it without
>>strong reason.
>
>The Fantasy Hero Companion includes a spell called Obscure. It's sort of
>like an Invisibility spell, but it doesn't make the mage impossible to see,
>just difficult to notice. It's based on Images. For your purposes, what's
>wrong with:
>
>Images (vs. sight), -5 to the viewer's PER Roll (25 AP), 0 END +1/2,
>Persistent +1/2, Only to appear unworthy of notice -1. Real Cost: 25.
I think that's a kludge. :-) I would use, "Invisibility, UBO (other
advantages/lims to taste)". The special effect of the "fringe" is that the
object appears to be non-descript and unremarkable unless they are
specifically looking for it.
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
------------------------------
Date: 13 Dec 1998 18:38:34 -0500
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Questions on Usable By Others, Usable Against Others and Focus
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"IJ" == Indiana Joe <jrc@mail1.nai.net> writes:
IJ> I think that's a kludge. :-) I would use, "Invisibility, UBO (other
IJ> advantages/lims to taste)".
There is an ability of a type of spirit in Shadowrun, the name of which I
cannot remember off-hand. The effect is that the victim (yes, victim) is
detrimentally unnoticed. For example, the victim of this effect crosses
the street. The guy driving the oncoming truck does not see him and runs
him down without stopping. Pedestrians and motorists in the vicinity
notice nothing out of the ordinary and do not assist or make emergency
calls.
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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:52:48 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
> <<Since RAVEN's half-page writeup in CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE notes that they were
> secretly taken over by VIPER in the late '70s (RAVEN is now just a funding
> source for VIPER), you'd expect there'd be some mention of them in the
> VIPER sourcebook. I don't think there is, though. >>
VIPER, p. 9. Though the Raven joins VIPER plot development was added by Hero at
close to the last minute and really should have been covered in a lot greater
depth.
> >>OTOH, I didn't read the VIPER book cover to cover in the few minutes since
> getting this message. ;) <<
>
> Well, shame on you. Nobody reads the classics anymore. :-)
Scott Bennie
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:16:56 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
At 04:52 PM 12/13/1998 -0800, Scott Bennie wrote:
>> <<Since RAVEN's half-page writeup in CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE notes that they
were
>> secretly taken over by VIPER in the late '70s (RAVEN is now just a funding
>> source for VIPER), you'd expect there'd be some mention of them in the
>> VIPER sourcebook. I don't think there is, though. >>
>
>VIPER, p. 9. Though the Raven joins VIPER plot development was added by
Hero at
>close to the last minute and really should have been covered in a lot greater
>depth.
"Raven and the ReDirection Cartel were taken over as cash cows to fund the
new VIPER." Okay, there it is. You can see how I might have missed a
single line buried in the middle of paragraph four. Heck, I had to scan
through the whole page twice to find it *after* you told me where it was.
So, Scott, feel like doing a 256-page VIPER Second Edition? You can use
some of the extra pages to cover the takeover. :)
Damon
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:05:24 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
> "Raven and the ReDirection Cartel were taken over as cash cows to fund the
> new VIPER." Okay, there it is. You can see how I might have missed a
> single line buried in the middle of paragraph four. Heck, I had to scan
> through the whole page twice to find it *after* you told me where it was.
And here I told Bruce to use a smaller font to make it harder to find. :-) It's
also in the nifty chart of the VIPER organization. But it definitely needed a
section at least as big as the one we gave Duchess.
> So, Scott, feel like doing a 256-page VIPER Second Edition? You can use
> some of the extra pages to cover the takeover. :)
I may do some stuff with VIPER again in the future. Although Raven never did much
for me; just VIPER with monocles and a little more aristocratic flair. But I
suspect if I sat down with them, and look again at how Steve handled them in Dark
Champions, I might find enough hooks to do something I liked with them.
So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second edition, Hero
System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What would you add,
subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched?
Scott Bennie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:26:19 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Michael Sprague wrote:
> Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming, while
> allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power. In the future, she would
> like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, such that if she puts it
> around a person, all their attacks are affected by the force field, but
> attacks targeted on this person would hit at full strength.
>
> On one hand I am trying to explain why the power doesn't work that way, but
> on the other hand, it does sort of make sense. Obviously, one would need
> the "Usable Against Others" advantage. And for that matter, there is
> nothing to stop the target from moving out of the targeted hex.
>
> To actually do this, I think she would use a Multi Power, with two slots,
> one for each specific use.
>
> Anyway, I'm torn on the issue. We did tell her to come up with what she
> wanted, and we could make it work. What would you do or suggest?
While this is very rough and may cause problems with the maths (and if
its legal), try this. Buy a Force Wall so that it will enclose the
target. Then buy AoE indirect centred on the Force Wall and defined as
from the Force Wall to the centre. Buy it with a hole in the middle and
only affecting attacks aimed at the Force Wall. Anybody launching an
attack from the outside will have the indirect advantage added which
will bypass the wall. Makes for an interesting case when you throw a
punch.
To make it even worse, remove the hole in the middle advantage and any
attack launched by the person inside will have it redirected back from
the wall to the centre.
- --
Rick Holding
If only "common sense" was just a bit more common...
or if you prefer... You call this logic ?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:44:42 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
>So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second edition,
Hero
>System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What would
you add,
>subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched?
I personally would like to see a more staged approach, so that you could
show Viper at various power levels, a couple full layouts and write ups of
bases, more tech, and a list of crimes and ways that Viper makes money. I
would love to see a big list of scenarios, short paragraph style ones,
longer writeups of a few paragraphs (see Fantasy Hero for how they did it),
in addition to the full sized ones in the book.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 02:43:25 -0600
From: "J. Alan Easley" <alaneasley@email.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
>A new player in our group is creating her first character, and she has an
>idea that makes my head hurt.
Don't they always? :-)
>Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming,
while
>allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power. In the future, she
would
>like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, such that if she puts it
>around a person, all their attacks are affected by the force field, but
>attacks targeted on this person would hit at full strength.
>On one hand I am trying to explain why the power doesn't work that way, but
>on the other hand, it does sort of make sense. Obviously, one would need
>the "Usable Against Others" advantage. And for that matter, there is
>nothing to stop the target from moving out of the targeted hex.
I don't know any perfect ways. A couple come to mind that are less than
perfect.
1) FF, bought Usable Against Others with enough extra targets to cover as
many targets as you think are likely to exist in any given situation,
Ranged. Would be cheaper if you allowed the owner of a power that is Usable
By Others to pay the END and control the use(beneficial effects only, of
course). Throw this on everyone and everything important, except the
victim.
2) Aid bought as healing, bought Usable Against Others, Autofire, Ranged,
Triggered by Attacks to hit same target, Autofire limited to only as many
attacks as Target uses. Throw this on the victim. (Kludgy)
>To actually do this, I think she would use a Multi Power, with two slots,
>one for each specific use.
Yeah, at least. With more to follow, I'm sure.
>Anyway, I'm torn on the issue. We did tell her to come up with what she
>wanted, and we could make it work. What would you do or suggest?
I would go with the first one. A bit of judgment is required to pick the
correct number to allow for. I would suggest that if she comes up a couple
of targets short every now and then just cut her some slack and let it work
anyway. Eventually you can let her put more points in it to cover more
targets if the shortage becomes too many or too often.
Anything you decide is going to have to require a little bending. Just
don't forget to decide ahead of time with her what is going to allow the
person inside her FF to get out, and that this is a pretty powerful effect,
make sure it costs a lot and that it isn't going to overbalance your game.
i.e. if it is too strong your major villains will be held mostly unable to
hurt the heroes(STUN and Bodywise).
Thanks for an interesting question.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:20:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Folks,
> >Next, she points out that Force Field allows you to "dampen" incoming, while
> >allowing you to "shoot" out of them at full power. In the future, she would
> >like the ability to "reverse" her Force Field, such that if she puts it
> >around a person, all their attacks are affected by the force field, but
> >attacks targeted on this person would hit at full strength.
> [...]
> I think that your instincts are mostly correct here: the effect she
> wants can be done with Force Field, Usable Against Others At Range
> (+1-1/2). Remember, though, that an Advantage of this will greatly reduce
> the effectiveness of the Power; what would be a 30/30 Force Field without
> Advantages, becomes 12/12 with a +1-1/2 applied.
>
> The character may be better off going with a Force Wall, as many other
> list members will no doubt recommend; she gets the same 12/12, but a lot
> more utility in the package. The only drawbacks are that it would affect
> incoming attacks as well, and should the target do more than 12 BODY with
> an attack it goes down until the PC's next phase.
Hm, I wonder if it's feasible to do this with forcewall & personal
immunity? (And maybe with usable-by-others on the personal immunity, so
she can extend the "shoot through" ability to her teammates).
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:40:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances
Scott Bennie asks:
>> So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second
>> edition, Hero System not CNM, that developed what was done in the
>> 1993 book. What would you add, subtract, or change? What shouldn't
>> be touched?
Christopher Taylor writes:
> I personally would like to see a more staged approach, so that you could
> show Viper at various power levels, a couple full layouts and write ups of
> bases, more tech, and a list of crimes and ways that Viper makes money. I
> would love to see a big list of scenarios, short paragraph style ones,
> longer writeups of a few paragraphs (see Fantasy Hero for how they did it),
> in addition to the full sized ones in the book.
I'll agree with this. In general, when I buy a supplement I'm
looking more for usable writeups - agents, gadgets, vehicles,
supervillains - than for background material. Having a set of
writeups for several power-levels, maybe some standard tactics and
strategies to be employed by agent teams, some base maps and maybe hex
sheets, are more important to me than organization histories and such.
Fully-developed characters, with full information on how to play them
(power and combat tactics, typical strategies, how to make them real,
mannerisms, speech patterns, psychology, etc), are also useful.
Given a good set of resources such as above, then what I would
want is scenarios that emphasize the role-playing aspects.
I.e. "Venom should have a tertiary viper base with a viper lieutenant,
three five-teams, a viper assault transport and three viper undercover
cars". Followed by the plot, how to roleplay the different characters
involved, timing elements, etc.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
------------------------------
End of champ-l-digest V1 #90
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