From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 1:21 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #91 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Monday, December 14 1998        Volume 01 : Number 091 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Making Champions Accessible 
    Re: Making Champions Accessible 
    Re: RAVEN appearances 
    Re: RAVEN appearances 
    Re: Updated VIPER (was RAVEN appearances) 
    Re: Updated VIPER (was RAVEN appearances) 
    VIPER Revision was Fw: RAVEN appearances 
    Re: Making Champions Accessible 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:11 -0800 (PST) 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Making Champions Accessible 
 
Hey folks, 
 
     Last night I had a conversation with a fellow champions player 
which somehow wandered onto the topic (via Fuzion, I suspect) of how 
to make Hero games and Champions more successful.  Some of this is 
just plain old (but never simple or easy) good business savvy; 
marketing and production values... others involve changes to the 
nature of the game, and to some extent to the way the game material is 
organized and presented.  I thought I'd post my ramblings here and see 
what people thing. 
 
     These are just my thoughts; when I use "we" below, it's in 
reference to the Hero system gaming community, with the feeling that 
we all like and enjoy the Hero system and would like to see it and the 
company that owns it survive and flourish, without losing what makes 
it our favorite game system. 
 
Marketing 
 
     Advertising, pushing distributors and game shops to give the 
material premium space, arranging alliances with comic book companies 
to suck in the "mainstream" (so to speak) comic book crowd, arranging 
appearnces at comic book conventions and gaming conventions, etc.  A 
lot of this, of course, involves money.  Still, it's a fact that these 
could produce a significant influx of new blood.  Easier said than 
done, of course, but I figured I'd better mention it to get it out of 
the way.  Most of this is outside our hands - and probably even 
outside of GoldRush Game's hands, unless they can cut some kind of 
business deal with one of the larger comic companies. 
 
     Actually, some of this may not be outside our hands; maybe we 
could look at ways we can "grass roots" market the game system?  Are 
people trying to make an effort to bring new players in?  Of course, 
that also is easier said than done... :-). 
 
Production Values 
 
     This goes hand in hand with marketing, and it ranges from having 
really good production values (printing quality, layout, cover 
quality) to managing the "image" of the product - slick as well as 
good cover art and interior art.  Upgrading the "image" of the product 
and bringing making the game more in line with the current genre of 
popular comics and gaming. Let's be honest, take most of the champions 
material and put it on the shelf alongside comics from the last couple 
of years; it doesn't look like it belongs there.  It should. 
 
     Better marketing and better production values would help, but 
really that's just half the problem of bringing the game to new 
gamers.  The other half of the problem is making the game accessible 
so new gamers stay with it.  And that brings us to the tricky problem 
of, how do we become successful without losing who we are? 
 
 
Lowering Barriers to Entry 
 
     In business there are what is referred to as "barriers to entry", 
problems that keep people out of a particular industry or field.  In 
gaming these are what keeps people from playing the game, what keeps 
people from running the game.  How these barriers are removed or 
resolved isn't so relevant as the simple fact that they *must* be 
resolved to encourage new blood to enter the genre. 
 
     Here are the barriers to entry that I see: 
 
     Abstract Thinking 
     Math 
     Ground Work 
     Laborious Game Flow 
     Culture 
 
     Abstract thinking refers to the simple fact that the game as it 
exists now requries a lot of abstract thinking to design a character 
and powers.  Math is fairly obvious.  These two typically go hand in 
hand, to some extent.  Ground work refers to the simple fact that you 
can't just pick up the champions game and run a scenario.  The 
existing champions material and supplements are not ready to run "out 
of the box".  The game flow refers to general game mechanics, although 
typically combat takes center stage here.  Culture refers to the 
willingness of the existing champions/hero gaming community to accept 
not just new players (I think they're fairly welcome) but new styles 
of play. 
 
Abstraction 
 
     Part of the challenge of getting into champions is the champions 
focus on abstract thinking.  This is the quality that endears the hero 
system to me, because it gives it such flexibility and range. But it's 
difficult for most people to think abstractly.  Also, by its very 
nature abstraction tends to detract from the versimilitude of the 
experience.  I'd bet money that most of the gaming market, and the 
untapped potential gaming market, don't want that.  They want to 
immerse themselves in the versimilitude of the experience, not rise 
above it to evaluate it abstractly. 
 
     The problem is how to alleviate the problem without sacrificing 
what makes the system unque and powerful, and interesting.  There have 
been a few attempts, in 3rd edition champions with the random hero 
generation rules and more recently in the Fuzion rules, to deal with 
this issue.  
 
     In the first case, the random hero generation rules, I think they 
really weren't a serious attempt to overhaul the game.  It wasn't a 
main focus of the game and it didn't provide enough variety for broad 
use.  You could get more milage out of building a set of thirty or 
forty generic character types and packaging them with the combat & 
campaign rules, with the character & power construction rules 
available in an appendix (not to remove them from the system, but to 
shift the focus for the first-time player/GM from the power 
construction to playing the game). 
 
     A key element to note here is that more than additional material 
or play aids are required; a fundamental shift in _focus_ is necessary 
so the unexposed gamers who pick the books up off the shelves have 
their attention immediately drawn towards the nature of the game, the 
fun, the action, not towards the math and abstract reasoning.  Game 
aids will help; what is chart, if not a game aid that makes gaming 
easier than using an equation?  But as any true gamer will tell you, 
it's not just what you have, but how you use it, that makes the 
difference. 
 
 
     I'm not personally familiar with the Fuzion rules, but the 
conclusions I've drawn from skimming the book and talking to many 
players (and listening on this mailing list) is that they were a 
serious attempt to overhaul the rules and make the game more 
accessible - perhaps too serious, in that they alienated many of the 
existing player base.  This is bad for the obvious reason that the 
existing customer base is what will keep the game going and will help 
new players get into the game.  The trick is to keep the existing 
customer base, the existing players, and to keep the existing game 
going.  Otherwise you might as well just start a whole new game and 
start from scratch. 
 
     Even assuming that the new blood is inclined to abstract thinking 
and math, there's still a considerable barrier to entry.  New players 
don't know how to build characters well, and the existing source 
material almost always requires considerable work for new GMs.  I'd be 
willing to bet most players - even players experienced GMing in other 
game systems - don't feel confident GMing until after extensive 
experience with the Champions system.  The existing source material is 
too vague to be used "out of the box" - vague because it *has* to be, 
because there're far too many factors in the game for the supplement 
to pin everything down.   
 
     Some solutions that occur to me are: 
 
     1) Introduce intermediate levels of abstraction 
          power blocks 
          character templates 
     2) Make power levels uniform and hard, so supplements can be 
          painlessly and reliably used 
     3) Following 1 and 2, make supplements that are more focused on 
          mechanistic, usable character stats, etc. 
     4) Work on making the existing champions/hero system gaming  
          culture welcome the new blood. 
 
Power Blocks 
 
     Introduce an intermediate level of abstraction - something 
between the full-blown character and power construction rules and 
pre-generated characters.  Take the rules and design "power blocks", 
typical writeups of typical superhero powers, priced at multiple 
levels, so the average gamer can just select the power blocks that the 
player wants and add them to the character sheet.   
 
     Shift the full-blown rules to the back of the book where the 
"guru" gamers can still find them and use them to build whole new 
powers.  They're not "optional", they're still a part of the main 
system, but they're the "guru" rules; build the new powers according 
to them, and make it clear that it's encouraged to build new powers 
with these rules, but shift the apparent emphasis from point-fiddling 
to gaming. 
 
     For example, for the Hand Killing Attack, build six different 
powers to represent, claws, knives, swords, monomolecular whips, 
laser-axes, etc.  For each one, have a 40, 60 and 80 point version. 
In the "powers" section list the effects and the cost.  In appendix B, 
list the power designs (appendix A is the power construction rules). 
Do the same for the other "typical" powers.  Under each power list 
some typical special effects and maybe describe a few possible nuances 
of each special effect. 
 
     To extend this even further, provide a selection of character 
templates; not just the five or six archetypes, but 12 to 18 different 
variations, each one a framework of a character, ready to have a set 
of powers (like take the tough guy framework and drop in the "super 
strong" and "super tough" power blocks, plus the "general 
invulnerability" power block (which has things like life support and 
flash defense, etc)).  New players can grab a template, skim through 
the list and select several power blocks, then work up a character 
background and persona and they're ready to roll (and role). 
 
Uniform Power Levels 
 
     Champions and the hero system already have power levels and they 
have the fairly nifty "Rule of X" that was discussed in a recent 
thread on this list, but the power levels are far too vague and far to 
seldomly followed to make them useful for neophyte gamemasters.  The 
key is that the neophyte gamemaster needs to buy a supplement and not 
have to do any customization to play the game.   
 
     For example, make power levels roughly 40/60/80 points.  Call 
them street-level, superheroic, and galactic.  Derive appropriate 
active points, defenses and damage classes from those point ranges. 
Now *require* that all Hero/Champions products adhere strictly to 
these power levels; providing duplicate character sets for other power 
levels is viable, but the key is that if the cover says "a supplement 
for street-level champions", the contents have to be "ready to roll" 
at that level. 
 
 
Mechanistic GM Source Material 
 
     The existing Champions supplements are fairly good in general. 
Some better, some worse.  Where they are in general weakest is where 
other game systems are strongest; because the system is so flexible, 
the points are usually fairly vague.  There tends to be a lot more in 
terms of background material than in character writeups, gadgets, 
vehicles, bases, settings, etc.  Supplements that are not weak on 
these terms are usually along the lines of the "gadgets" book, not 
providing any connecting framework at all for the gadgets.  This is a 
problem because this is where the system challenges new GMs the most. 
To encourage new blood to play and GM, we need to make supplements 
that make it easier for them to do so. 
 
Game Flow 
 
     The biggest problem with the game flow is the big delay between 
getting the game and being able to play the game.  The suggestions 
above deal with that.  But there may be other problems to consider. 
Combat in champions is complex.  Part of this is due to the many 
tactical options and modifiers.  Part of it is due to the complex 
speed and action sequencing. 
 
     None of these can be fundamentally changed without seriously 
affecting how the game feels and works, but perhaps we can introduce 
new approaches to them that ease people into the game, or introduce 
"jump start rules" (to borrow a leaf from SJG's Car Wars) to get 
new players into the game quickly 
 
     For the tactical options and modifiers, I can't think of any that 
really can be done without.  I can think of a few different game aids 
that might make life easier; for example, combat maneuver cards.  I've 
suggested these before, though I've never really had a crop of new 
players to try them out on.  The idea is to take the combat maneuvers 
from the book and build a set of cards, one card for each maneuver. 
Make enough for each player to have their own set.  The player selects 
a maneuver and lays it down on the table.  The card lists the effects 
and has nice, big numbers for cumulative modifiers. The GM can just 
glance at the cards and quickly sum up what the player's current 
modifiers are.   
 
     Note: You could even extend this concept to the power blocks, so 
players could build characters by selecting power block cards.  This 
might get a bit out of hand, but it would certainly be interesting to 
put together a set of cards (hopefully a nice-looking set with 
colorful art) and try it out at a Con, hmmm? 
 
     Speed is a bit trickier.   
 
     I like the way SPD in champions allows complex actions, even with 
the "stutter-movement" effect it creates.  Using a more realistic 
system would be far too cumbersome. Using a less realistic system runs 
the risk of losing the essence of the game.  However, I've noticed 
that in games the SPDs tend to cluster around certain ranges anyway. 
Conceivably you could replace numeric speed with low, medium, and 
high, maybe with slight tweaks for flavor. 
 
     Assume all heroes start with at least low by default (and 
"normal" is even lower).  Going by doubles would probably be excessive 
- - imagine SPD 3, 6 and 12 being the variations!  Likewise, going 3/6/9 
might be a bit too much as well.  Maybe 4/6/8?  Or flatten the curve 
by raising the base: 6/9/12? (and assume normals - the ones that are 
relavant, at any rate - start at 4). 
 
     Let's say we go with 4/6/8. By defining these as power blocks, 
you still leave the door open for guru gamers to use the full SPD 
chart, but typical gamers just have "normal (heroic)", "fast" (gets an 
extra action every other action) and "very fast" (gets an extra action 
every action). 
 
     I don't think this is the *best* solution, but it's *a* solution. 
I'd like to hear other ideas. The key is that I think the solution has 
to retrofit into the existing game system.  It'd be interesting to see 
if there's a better way to do it overall; maybe something like 
quantifying actions by how many seconds a typical person would take to 
perform them, then having SPD be a ratio to apply to it.  I never have 
liked the standard "half move, once you've attacked you can't move 
anymore, move and then attack", etc, approach, but I don't personally 
want to tackle restructuring such an integral part of the combat 
rules.  Anybody want the job? :-). 
 
Culture 
 
     Part of this might involve the existing player base and the 
culture we develop and promulgate.  I personally detest collectible 
card games, for example, but I have to admit that they did a hell of a 
lot to popularize gaming into the mainstream. 
 
     As one example, not that I think this is a problem now, but it 
might become one: We have to recognize that we're going to see new 
players and that they're not going to be up to the "standards" we 
currently have - particularly if some of the suggestions below ever 
come to pass.  We have to embrace the new players anyway, whether 
they're people who just want to pull out a character sheet and play, 
overdramatic Vampire and Goth players, or eight-year-old comic book 
fans who want to play their favorite heroes.   
 
     We have to do this in recognition of the fact that they will 
improve the future of gaming in this genre and this game system - even 
if the system doesn't look so much, at first glance, like the system 
we know and love. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:38:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com> 
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible 
 
On 14 Dec, Steven J. Owens wrote: 
>  
> Marketing 
>  
>      Advertising, pushing distributors and game shops to give the 
> material premium space, arranging alliances with comic book companies 
> to suck in the "mainstream" (so to speak) comic book crowd, arranging 
> appearnces at comic book conventions and gaming conventions, etc.  A 
> lot of this, of course, involves money.  Still, it's a fact that these 
> could produce a significant influx of new blood.  Easier said than 
> done, of course, but I figured I'd better mention it to get it out of 
> the way.  Most of this is outside our hands - and probably even 
> outside of GoldRush Game's hands, unless they can cut some kind of 
> business deal with one of the larger comic companies. 
>  
>      Actually, some of this may not be outside our hands; maybe we 
> could look at ways we can "grass roots" market the game system?  Are 
> people trying to make an effort to bring new players in?  Of course, 
> that also is easier said than done... :-). 
 
You're absolutely right on one thing:  good marketing takes a lot of 
money.  In fact, a successful new product can actually lose money 
because too much was spent on marketing it:  the iMac from Apple 
Computer is a perfect example, having spent $100M marketing it. 
 
But I'm not sure I want Champions to become the "Official Game of Dark 
Cow Comics"... 
  
> Production Values 
>  
>      This goes hand in hand with marketing, and it ranges from having 
> really good production values (printing quality, layout, cover 
> quality) to managing the "image" of the product - slick as well as 
> good cover art and interior art.  Upgrading the "image" of the product 
> and bringing making the game more in line with the current genre of 
> popular comics and gaming. Let's be honest, take most of the champions 
> material and put it on the shelf alongside comics from the last couple 
> of years; it doesn't look like it belongs there.  It should. 
 
I personally don't have a problem with the way the current art work 
looks.  I don't think I've ever bought a role-playing supplement 
because I like the art... 
 
>  
 
<excellent commentary on Barriers of Entry snipped> 
 
>  
> Abstraction 
>  
>      Part of the challenge of getting into champions is the champions 
> focus on abstract thinking.  This is the quality that endears the hero 
> system to me, because it gives it such flexibility and range. But it's 
> difficult for most people to think abstractly.  Also, by its very 
> nature abstraction tends to detract from the versimilitude of the 
> experience.  I'd bet money that most of the gaming market, and the 
> untapped potential gaming market, don't want that.  They want to 
> immerse themselves in the versimilitude of the experience, not rise 
> above it to evaluate it abstractly. 
>  
>      The problem is how to alleviate the problem without sacrificing 
> what makes the system unque and powerful, and interesting.  There have 
> been a few attempts, in 3rd edition champions with the random hero 
> generation rules and more recently in the Fuzion rules, to deal with 
> this issue.  
>  
>      In the first case, the random hero generation rules, I think they 
> really weren't a serious attempt to overhaul the game.  It wasn't a 
> main focus of the game and it didn't provide enough variety for broad 
> use.  You could get more milage out of building a set of thirty or 
> forty generic character types and packaging them with the combat & 
> campaign rules, with the character & power construction rules 
> available in an appendix (not to remove them from the system, but to 
> shift the focus for the first-time player/GM from the power 
> construction to playing the game). 
>  
>      A key element to note here is that more than additional material 
> or play aids are required; a fundamental shift in _focus_ is necessary 
> so the unexposed gamers who pick the books up off the shelves have 
> their attention immediately drawn towards the nature of the game, the 
> fun, the action, not towards the math and abstract reasoning.  Game 
> aids will help; what is chart, if not a game aid that makes gaming 
> easier than using an equation?  But as any true gamer will tell you, 
> it's not just what you have, but how you use it, that makes the 
> difference. 
>  
>  
>      I'm not personally familiar with the Fuzion rules, but the 
> conclusions I've drawn from skimming the book and talking to many 
> players (and listening on this mailing list) is that they were a 
> serious attempt to overhaul the rules and make the game more 
> accessible - perhaps too serious, in that they alienated many of the 
> existing player base.  This is bad for the obvious reason that the 
> existing customer base is what will keep the game going and will help 
> new players get into the game.  The trick is to keep the existing 
> customer base, the existing players, and to keep the existing game 
> going.  Otherwise you might as well just start a whole new game and 
> start from scratch. 
>  
>      Even assuming that the new blood is inclined to abstract thinking 
> and math, there's still a considerable barrier to entry.  New players 
> don't know how to build characters well, and the existing source 
> material almost always requires considerable work for new GMs.  I'd be 
> willing to bet most players - even players experienced GMing in other 
> game systems - don't feel confident GMing until after extensive 
> experience with the Champions system.  The existing source material is 
> too vague to be used "out of the box" - vague because it *has* to be, 
> because there're far too many factors in the game for the supplement 
> to pin everything down.   
 
I have found that Champions level of Abstraction makes a lot more sense 
than the level of abstraction that exists in (for example) Rifts, which 
in my humble opinion is one of the worst systems out there.  Given that 
we are dealing with superpowered people, dovetailing things into a few 
sets of powers with little or no way to modify them to create unique 
characters is the wrong way to go. 
 
It has been my experience that new gamers to Champions go through a 
three step process: 
 
(1)  Discovery 
 
They are introduced to the game by a somewhat experienced friend and 
have a character made up for them.  As their first few sessions 
progress they learn the rules in start asking questions that you might 
never had heard before or took for granted. 
 
 
(2)  Creativity 
 
Having figured out the rules, they get themselves a copy of the BBB and 
start making character willy-nilly, trying all sorts of different power 
combinations as they strive to make a character that they feel totally 
comfortable with.  It's about this time that they are introduced to 
munchkinism in the quest to wring maximum efficiency out of their 
characters. 
 
(3)  Jaded Gamer 
 
Having figured out all the tricks (or at least most of them) the new 
gamer then settles into designing characters who are incredibly 
efficient and always built with the same principles in mind.  He or she 
comes with great ideas but the characters all start to look the same.  
That is until they start running their own games and create NPC's, 
which (for me at least) opened the creative floodgates. 
 
Comments On Other Suggestions 
============================= 
 
The concept of Power Blocks is an interesting one to me, but I think 
what would work better is more examples of taking a special effect and 
turning into a power.  These kinds of examples (perhaps in 5th edition) 
would go a long way towards helping new players learn how to simulate 
those abilities their favourite comic book characters show.  
 
I think that the Hero System rules are so closely intertwined that 
making changes to any portion of them would radically alter the way 
everything works.  Changes to combat such as modifying the way SPD 
works wouldn't feel right to me and it would cause a major shift in the 
way I would make characters. 
 
In my mind, the job of the Fifth Edition of Champions is to clean up 
all the niggling problems with the system and make it easier for new 
players to be brought up to speed.  I have always liked Champs for its 
unlimited potential in building characters.  If I want to be stifled in 
my power choices I'll play Marvel Superheroes. 
 
- --  
Chris Hartjes 
Entertainment Resources Group 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:07:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances 
 
At 04:29 PM 12/13/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>I know RAVEN was in Super-Agents and Eye For An Eye, but do they show up 
>in any other Hero books? 
 
   There's a bit of a write-up on them in Champions Universe; other than 
that, Raven (no longer using all caps) only has general references and 
mentions, mostly in the later 3rd-edition products. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:09:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: RAVEN appearances 
 
At 04:21 PM 12/13/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote: 
>At 04:29 PM 12/13/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>>I know RAVEN was in Super-Agents and Eye For An Eye, but do they show up 
>>in any other Hero books? 
> 
>Since RAVEN's half-page writeup in CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE notes that they were 
>secretly taken over by VIPER in the late '70s (RAVEN is now just a funding 
>source for VIPER), you'd expect there'd be some mention of them in the 
>VIPER sourcebook.  I don't think there is, though.  OTOH, I didn't read the 
>VIPER book cover to cover in the few minutes since getting this message.  ;) 
 
   Actually, Raven's writeup in An Eye For An Eye describes how that 
organization managed to divest itself from VIPER's influence. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:39:52 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER (was RAVEN appearances) 
 
At 10:44 PM 12/13/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>>So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second edition, 
>Hero 
>>System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What would 
>you add, 
>>subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched? 
> 
>I personally would like to see a more staged approach, so that you could 
>show Viper at various power levels, a couple full layouts and write ups of 
>bases, more tech, and a list of crimes and ways that Viper makes money.  I 
>would love to see a big list of scenarios, short paragraph style ones, 
>longer writeups of a few paragraphs (see Fantasy Hero for how they did it), 
>in addition to the full sized ones in the book. 
 
   This is a good point.  Keep in mind that the PCs can be anything from a 
pair of beginning Dark Champions vigilantes to a squadron of two dozen 
high-powered veterans, and make things scalable accordingly.  The power 
level adjustments for the individual characters in the existing book are a 
good start, but some indication of what type of PCs that a character, team, 
piece of equipment, etc., is intended for would be helpful too. 
   Along the same lines, some quick scenario ideas (one or two paragraphs) 
for the various subgenres that VIPER could be used in -- four-color, Dark 
Champions, Super Agents, whatever -- would be a good idea too.  As a tip, 
go through each villain, corporation, nest activity, project, etc., and try 
to come up with at least one scenario idea for it. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:30:37 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER (was RAVEN appearances) 
 
At 09:05 PM 12/13/98 -0800, Scott Bennie wrote: 
>So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second edition, 
Hero 
>System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What would 
you add, 
>subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched? 
 
   Here's what I think should be worked on: 
 
   1.  Update all characters to 5th Edition.  (That much is actually pretty 
obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.)  Arguably, also 
utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books. 
   2.  Give the existing supervillain characters some Experience. 
   3.  Add a couple of solo villains. 
   4.  Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- not because he 
sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him leaving 
VIPER.  (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.) 
   5.  Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected corporations (at least a 
dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the Corporations 
sourcebook. 
   6.  Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to also include "How VIPER 
Hunts Your Character's Enemies."  If the PCs are dealing with (for example) 
the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved? 
   7.  Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest info" 
on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States.  Talk to Champions 
players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in 
their area, and include that information.  For example, I know Shelley 
Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on 
her website), and I have some material for the latest Portland. 
   8.  Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal 
with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions).  In fact, a new 
scenario could be centered around this.  The point, though, is that VIPER 
will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed to deal 
with specific individuals.  VIPER could even have special task forces to 
deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the Silver 
Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if they 
become troublesome enough. 
   9.  I'm also wondering if the vehicles couldn't be nearly as modular as 
the agents -- that is, let the Quetzalcoatl Mk III (for instance) have a 
selection of three or four weapons that could be mounted on it. 
   10.  Include an entire section where each other Champions Universe 
organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how VIPER 
regards and deals with that organization.  (Each would be a quarter-page to 
a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.) 
 
   That's what I can think of offhand. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:46:16 -0500 
From: "Geoff Depew" <mephron@idt.net> 
Subject: VIPER Revision was Fw: RAVEN appearances 
 
<I forwarded this to my Champions GM -who recently subscribed to the list - 
and this is the response he sent back.> 
 
>>>> So, Scott, feel like doing a 256-page VIPER Second Edition?  You can 
>use 
>>>> some of the extra pages to cover the takeover.   :) 
>>> 
>>>I may do some stuff with VIPER again in the future. Although Raven 
>never 
>>did much 
>>>for me; just VIPER with monocles and a little more aristocratic flair. 
>But 
>>I 
>>>suspect if I sat down with them, and look again at how Steve handled 
>them 
>>in Dark 
>>>Champions, I might find enough hooks to do something I liked with 
>them. 
>>> 
>>>So let's assume we (or somebody) were going to do a VIPER second 
>edition, 
>>Hero 
>>>System not CNM, that developed what was done in the 1993 book. What 
>would 
>>you add, 
>>>subtract, or change? What shouldn't be touched? 
>>> 
>>>Scott Bennie 
> 
>Well, this is a lengthy question. I have done several things with VIPER 
>in my game that many of you may find repulsive. I have, thanks to the 
>wonders of genetic manipulation, eliminated the focus limitation for 
>those flying VIPER agents. (That would be...Flight Endorphin Viper 
>Agents) 
> 
>I had Pulsar rejoin VIPER. He's been much more successful since then. 
>He's not even unlucky anymore. And now he has an energy blast for 
>everyone. Old Villains should get old, and tougher. 
> 
>VIPER Force One: I have YET to see a group that does not scream, bitch, 
>and moan when I take these guys out of the box. I LOVE them, but my 
>players hate them. Keep them anyway, but please, please, do something 
>about Mirror Man? That character is ridiculous. His getaway method is to 
>never send the primary duplicate into combat and to have Chasm carry a 
>Change Environment Darkness Grenade. Let's be serious, people. This is 
>twinky. 
> 
>VIPER Force Two: Well, within a week, this group is going to cease to 
>be, because more than likely, Armstrong will be the new Golden Avenger, 
>and the Current Golden Avenger, AKA Adolf Hitler, will be either in 
>Stronghold or dead. To request details of the "Golden Ages" plotline, 
>conceived in the first feverish days of my champions campaign eleven 
>years ago and finally coming to fruition now, mail me separately at 
>msatran1@hotmail.com. I think it's an interesting variation, if not a 
>publishable adventure. (Unlike the previous foray into Naziism by Hero 
>Games, this one clearly features Hitler as a Villain, and therefore is 
>more politically safe) However, I like them...keep them. 
> 
>Most of the book is really quite good, but I noticed some things 
>missing. 
>1) VIPER Assault Helicopters. These are a must. You cannot fight heroes 
>in urban environments without VTOLS and the maneuverability they 
>provide. 
>2) Why in the name of god do they need to compete with COIL? King Cobra 
>is a power mad looney, but he's still a looney. The "Battle over a Snake 
>Motif" is slightly silly. 
>3) RAVEN is hardly integral. Just eliminate them. 
>4) Give the PC's a smart, canny Supreme Serpent who is human rather than 
>this bizarre alien computer concept. The concept of VIPER is trained 
>agents with supervillain support. Give him military skills, training, 
>and a nasty gun, with a gadget pool. Have there be political maneuvering 
>between his top dogs to get the position when he dies. 
>5) VIPER Power Armor. If this happens to any significant degree, it is 
>over for heroes everywhere. Why have supers at all? Just mass produce 
>your power armor and go for it. You can have almost any effect except 
>magic. 
>6) More robots, some tougher, some weaker. 
>7) More tanks. The lack of a standard medium sized hovertank is a 
>significant weakness. 
>8) VIPER doesn't need any more weapons. 
>9) Viper needs more independant villains who aren't goofy and silly. A 
>lot of the ones in the book are either too tough, too weak, or too silly 
>to use. Old Classics like Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, and others should also 
>be redone. 
>10) Worst problem with VIPER. VIPER has too many skills now. You can 
>take three agents and kill a hero in his secret ID with the new way some 
>of these agents are set up. VIPER is supposed to be a dangerous 
>opponent. Not an unbeatable one. 
>11) Get rid of the find weakness on VIPER agents. That's ridiculous. 
>It's unbalancing on heroes. Think about what happens if every VIPER 
>agent has it. "How do I get Find Weakness with my gun? I was trained by 
>VIPER, they've all got it, by god." 
>12) More Planes. VIPER could use some more planes. With missiles, this 
>time. Missiles are a great way to stop the heroes from attacking agents. 
>Just shoot a random building and watch the fun. 
> 
>I am sure I'll think of more, but that's it for now. 
> 
>______________________________________________________ 
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:28:22 -0200 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br> 
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible 
 
Chris Hartjes wrote: 
>  
> On 14 Dec, Steven J. Owens wrote: 
> > 
> > Marketing 
> > 
> >      Advertising, pushing distributors and game shops to give the 
> > material premium space, arranging alliances with comic book companies 
> > to suck in the "mainstream" (so to speak) comic book crowd, arranging 
> > appearnces at comic book conventions and gaming conventions, etc.  A 
> > lot of this, of course, involves money.  Still, it's a fact that these 
> > could produce a significant influx of new blood.  Easier said than 
> > done, of course, but I figured I'd better mention it to get it out of 
> > the way.  Most of this is outside our hands - and probably even 
> > outside of GoldRush Game's hands, unless they can cut some kind of 
> > business deal with one of the larger comic companies. 
> > 
> >      Actually, some of this may not be outside our hands; maybe we 
> > could look at ways we can "grass roots" market the game system?  Are 
> > people trying to make an effort to bring new players in?  Of course, 
> > that also is easier said than done... :-). 
 
What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the 
promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa 
have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire 
3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot 
of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the 
shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice 
productwith a good art and a solid system. Good art sell a lot of books. 
Look to DP9 products. Average game system, good world amazing interior 
art...  
 
 
> But I'm not sure I want Champions to become the "Official Game of Dark 
> Cow Comics"... 
 
Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is 
weak, unknow for any super hero comic  book fan. And sometimes it sounds 
like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote 
the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good 
comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made 
Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?) 
  
> > Production Values 
> > 
> >      This goes hand in hand with marketing, and it ranges from having 
> > really good production values (printing quality, layout, cover 
> > quality) to managing the "image" of the product - slick as well as 
> > good cover art and interior art.  Upgrading the "image" of the product 
> > and bringing making the game more in line with the current genre of 
> > popular comics and gaming. Let's be honest, take most of the champions 
> > material and put it on the shelf alongside comics from the last couple 
> > of years; it doesn't look like it belongs there.  It should. 
>  
> I personally don't have a problem with the way the current art work 
> looks.  I don't think I've ever bought a role-playing supplement 
> because I like the art... 
 
The art work is terrible. They could call some new talents to do the 
internal arts, and some big hit to do the cover. Adam Hughes is perfect 
but he is very expansive, but Art Adams isn't, and he is a master Fan 
Boy...  
 
> > 
>  
> <excellent commentary on Barriers of Entry snipped> 
>  
> > 
> > Abstraction 
> > 
> >      Part of the challenge of getting into champions is the champions 
> > focus on abstract thinking.  This is the quality that endears the hero 
> > system to me, because it gives it such flexibility and range. But it's 
> > difficult for most people to think abstractly.  Also, by its very 
> > nature abstraction tends to detract from the versimilitude of the 
> > experience.  I'd bet money that most of the gaming market, and the 
> > untapped potential gaming market, don't want that.  They want to 
> > immerse themselves in the versimilitude of the experience, not rise 
> > above it to evaluate it abstractly. 
> > 
> >      The problem is how to alleviate the problem without sacrificing 
> > what makes the system unque and powerful, and interesting.  There have 
> > been a few attempts, in 3rd edition champions with the random hero 
> > generation rules and more recently in the Fuzion rules, to deal with 
> > this issue. 
> > 
> >      In the first case, the random hero generation rules, I think they 
> > really weren't a serious attempt to overhaul the game.  It wasn't a 
> > main focus of the game and it didn't provide enough variety for broad 
> > use.  You could get more milage out of building a set of thirty or 
> > forty generic character types and packaging them with the combat & 
> > campaign rules, with the character & power construction rules 
> > available in an appendix (not to remove them from the system, but to 
> > shift the focus for the first-time player/GM from the power 
> > construction to playing the game). 
> > 
> >      A key element to note here is that more than additional material 
> > or play aids are required; a fundamental shift in _focus_ is necessary 
> > so the unexposed gamers who pick the books up off the shelves have 
> > their attention immediately drawn towards the nature of the game, the 
> > fun, the action, not towards the math and abstract reasoning.  Game 
> > aids will help; what is chart, if not a game aid that makes gaming 
> > easier than using an equation?  But as any true gamer will tell you, 
> > it's not just what you have, but how you use it, that makes the 
> > difference. 
> > 
> > 
> >      I'm not personally familiar with the Fuzion rules, but the 
> > conclusions I've drawn from skimming the book and talking to many 
> > players (and listening on this mailing list) is that they were a 
> > serious attempt to overhaul the rules and make the game more 
> > accessible - perhaps too serious, in that they alienated many of the 
> > existing player base.  This is bad for the obvious reason that the 
> > existing customer base is what will keep the game going and will help 
> > new players get into the game.  The trick is to keep the existing 
> > customer base, the existing players, and to keep the existing game 
> > going.  Otherwise you might as well just start a whole new game and 
> > start from scratch. 
> > 
> >      Even assuming that the new blood is inclined to abstract thinking 
> > and math, there's still a considerable barrier to entry.  New players 
> > don't know how to build characters well, and the existing source 
> > material almost always requires considerable work for new GMs.  I'd be 
> > willing to bet most players - even players experienced GMing in other 
> > game systems - don't feel confident GMing until after extensive 
> > experience with the Champions system.  The existing source material is 
> > too vague to be used "out of the box" - vague because it *has* to be, 
> > because there're far too many factors in the game for the supplement 
> > to pin everything down. 
>  
> I have found that Champions level of Abstraction makes a lot more sense 
> than the level of abstraction that exists in (for example) Rifts, which 
> in my humble opinion is one of the worst systems out there.  Given that 
> we are dealing with superpowered people, dovetailing things into a few 
> sets of powers with little or no way to modify them to create unique 
> characters is the wrong way to go. 
> 
 
Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is 
hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people 
from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf 
like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction 
is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a 
Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say all the time: 
"Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless path to my 
self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!" 
  
> It has been my experience that new gamers to Champions go through a 
> three step process: 
>  
> (1)  Discovery 
>  
> They are introduced to the game by a somewhat experienced friend and 
> have a character made up for them.  As their first few sessions 
> progress they learn the rules in start asking questions that you might 
> never had heard before or took for granted. 
 
To introduce a new player you must generate a good entertaiment to your 
player. So they will be excited and wiill comment with the players. Once 
the other possible players have knowledge of the game and how fun is it 
someone will ask to join or it will be more easy to call him/her to play. 
 
> (2)  Creativity 
>  
> Having figured out the rules, they get themselves a copy of the BBB and 
> start making character willy-nilly, trying all sorts of different power 
> combinations as they strive to make a character that they feel totally 
> comfortable with.  It's about this time that they are introduced to 
> munchkinism in the quest to wring maximum efficiency out of their 
> characters. 
 
I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about 
the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to 
grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character 
ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new 
pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts. 
  
> (3)  Jaded Gamer 
>  
> Having figured out all the tricks (or at least most of them) the new 
> gamer then settles into designing characters who are incredibly 
> efficient and always built with the same principles in mind.  He or she 
> comes with great ideas but the characters all start to look the same. 
> That is until they start running their own games and create NPC's, 
> which (for me at least) opened the creative floodgates. 
> 
 
The first game session is essential to keep the player. It must sound 
fun, full of enteiment and  good role play. If the game are full of this 
elements the new player will be member of your game group for years. 
 
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End of champ-l-digest V1 #91 
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