Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 92
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 5:18 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #92
champ-l-digest Monday, December 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 092
In this issue:
RE: Updated VIPER [Long!]
5th Edition status?
RE: Making Champions Accessible OR being the Champs pusher
Hero stuff
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
the cottage game weekend
Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: VIPER Revision
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:10:14 -0600
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com>
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Long!]
At 10:31 AM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote:
>Here's what I think should be worked on:
>1. Update all characters to 5th Edition. (That much is actually
pretty obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.) Arguably,
also utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books.
I'd pass on the Ultimates books outside the UMA [maybe parts of the
USM] to be honest. All due respect to the efforts of the authors for them,
most of the material in the published ones isn't suited to mainstream
campaigns.
>2. Give the existing supervillain characters some Experience.
Hard to argue here. But buy them some skills for God's sake! If I
see another 'Nobel Prize Geneticist' with one science skill at a 13- I'm
going to bloody scream.
>3. Add a couple of solo villains.
Not sure we really need this - lots of them out there already.
>4. Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- not because
he sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him leaving
VIPER. (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.)
I think there were a couple of others that could go too. The
cybernetic ones come to mind.
>5. Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected corporations (at
least a dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the
Corporations sourcebook.
I have to disagree here - frankly, no one I have ever dealt with has
*ever* used those write-ups. Almost everyone considered it a grossly
unnecessary level of detail, and a wholly useless complication.
>6. Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to also include "How
VIPER Hunts Your Character's Enemies." If the PCs are dealing with (for
example) the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved?
Interesting idea, but probably easily extrapolatible from given
information.
>7. Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest
info" on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States. Talk to Champions
players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in their
area, and include that information. For example, I know Shelley Mactyre has
done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on her website),
and I have some material for the latest Portland.
Nope - got to come down *strong* against this one. This is really
an absurd level of detail, and it's going to be ignored/thrown out by
everyone who disagrees with the author's viewpoints on the 'local' Nest.
Pass on this one. [But see comments at bottom]
> >8. Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal
> with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions). In fact, a new
> scenario could be centered around this. The point, though, is that VIPER
> will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed to deal
> with specific individuals. VIPER could even have special task forces to
> deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the Silver
> Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if they
> become troublesome enough.
>
Urk. I think this is a bit much too - no one is going to spend a
billion dollars on a weapon system to knock out the Champions. Adapting an
existing system maybe, but the idea of a development program for this
purpose is just silly. Spend your money finding out Secret Id's [Solitaire
is easy to crack, as is Jaguar - Seeker doesn't even have one, and neither
does Quantum] and just put a bullet in their heads when they step out of the
shower one morning.
>9. I'm also wondering if the vehicles couldn't be nearly as
modular as the agents -- that is, let the Quetzalcoatl Mk III (for instance)
have a selection of three or four weapons that could be mounted on it.
Heck - isn't this what your book is for Bob?
>10. Include an entire section where each other Champions Universe
organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how VIPER
regards and deals with that organization. (Each would be a quarter-page to
a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.)
Nope - way too much work.
Comments -
[I'm willing to talk intelligently on the subject, but irrational
flames will be summarily mocked. You have been warned!]
Part of the problem I see with the material Bob is talking about
here is summed up in this one sentence:
Way too much detail!
No offense Bob, but at the level of detail you're talking about
here, you might as well roll the dice behind my screen and run my game for
me too!
A well-thought out presentation is one thing, but the kind of detail
being discussed here is simply unnecessary. No one - and I mean *no one* -
uses the Champions Universe as written in the supplements in toto. Everyone
changes things, deletes groups they think are nothing more than packs of
Hostess Twinkies looking for a wrapper, and so on. Wasting both the writer's
time and the reader's money on a level of detail that no one is going to use
is senseless - and it won't sell. Hero can't afford to publish a VIPER book
the size of the BBB, and even if they could, the likelihood of their making
a profit on it is miniscule to be kind.
I feel like the same goes for the huge list of scenarios and plot
ideas that you're suggesting here too - frankly, elitist as it sounds - if
any GM can't create his own material , then he needs to hang up the hat and
pack it in. [Note: I do not mean the occasional emergency pick-up game, or
the real-life crisis shortened planning time game and the like, I'm talking
about people who have to depend on the published material to give them
*every* major plotline and scenario in their games.]
I appears to me that what we need is simply good, solid material
that is thought provoking - not immense, senseless lists of agencies and
tie-ins to groups no one cares about, and equally immense lists of equipment
and scenario ideas that anyone with the will to do so can create on their
own. In this case, I really believe that the idea of "Less is more" strikes
home pretty squarely.
Rob Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:14 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: 5th Edition status?
I haven't monitored this list in a few months, so I apologize if this
message is redundant, but what's the word on 5th Edition Hero System? The
last thing I remember is that it would be out before the end of the year.
It looks like this isn't going to happen, but I'm just wondering if it is
right around the corner or if we still have a 6 month wait in front of us.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:29:53 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: RE: Making Champions Accessible OR being the Champs pusher
Okay, I have some opinions to drop in here. *
] Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
] weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And
] sometimes it sounds
] like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk
] to promote
] the selling. I think Champs system could be official system
] for any good
] comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
] Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
*I think this is a great idea. To get Champs associated with a trendy comic
would probably do wonders. Something like a city book set in Image's New
York City with Spawn and whomever else lives there would draw a lot of
interest. Who wouldn't want Spawn as a contact? If Todd is ready to put his
name on Kiss dolls, he's ready to put it on a gaming supplement.
] > I personally don't have a problem with the way the current art work
] > looks. I don't think I've ever bought a role-playing supplement
] > because I like the art...
]
] The art work is terrible. They could call some new talents to do the
] internal arts, and some big hit to do the cover. Adam Hughes
] is perfect
] but he is very expansive, but Art Adams isn't, and he is a master Fan
] Boy...
*Champions has a longstanding tradition of mediocre artwork. I for one,
don't base my gaming choices on artwork but if you're looking for a cool new
game to try, artwork can really grab your attention. White Wolf is a perfect
example of this. Crappy game mechanics shrouded in loads of style and
flavour. I think lots of people bought those early books because they just
looked so sexy.
<large snip>
] Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is
] hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people
] from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf
] like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction
] is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a
] Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say
] all the time:
] "Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless
] path to my
] self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!"
*Right, well, there's a happy medium here. The ability to deal with
abstraction is a matter of philosophy and has very little to do with gaming
experience. A new player will need very specific examples as a starting
point. Abstract game concepts are just chinwagging until you understand how
to apply the math to them. I think you can make that first game easy to
start without sucking the flexibility out of the system by providing lots of
clear examples and sample characters.
] > It has been my experience that new gamers to Champions go through a
] > three step process:
] >
] > (1) Discovery
] >
] > They are introduced to the game by a somewhat experienced friend and
] > have a character made up for them. As their first few sessions
] > progress they learn the rules in start asking questions
] that you might
] > never had heard before or took for granted.
]
] To introduce a new player you must generate a good
] entertaiment to your
] player. So they will be excited and wiill comment with the
] players. Once
] the other possible players have knowledge of the game and how
] fun is it
] someone will ask to join or it will be more easy to call
] him/her to play.
*That's what's so addictive about this system. Once players understand how
the system works, they will talk for hours about what they're going to do
with their next 10 points, provided the game is interesting.
] > (2) Creativity
] >
] > Having figured out the rules, they get themselves a copy of
] the BBB and
] > start making character willy-nilly, trying all sorts of
] different power
] > combinations as they strive to make a character that they
] feel totally
] > comfortable with. It's about this time that they are introduced to
] > munchkinism in the quest to wring maximum efficiency out of their
] > characters.
]
] I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
] the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
] grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change
] character
] ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two
] about the new
] pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
*I always encourage this and I recommend handing out experience for extra
stuff. In my FH game, the palladin sings war ballads to recover his Life
magic END battery. So he wrote one out, with probably 8 or 9 stanzas and
then did a reading at the game with teutonic sounding background music and
actions like a kata. At first everyone sort of giggled but by the end
everyone was fascinated by the ballad and applauded. Poof! Free point. It
really tends to get people wrapped up in the game.
] > (3) Jaded Gamer
] >
] > Having figured out all the tricks (or at least most of them) the new
] > gamer then settles into designing characters who are incredibly
] > efficient and always built with the same principles in
] mind. He or she
] > comes with great ideas but the characters all start to look
] the same.
] > That is until they start running their own games and create NPC's,
] > which (for me at least) opened the creative floodgates.
] >
]
] The first game session is essential to keep the player. It must sound
] fun, full of enteiment and good role play. If the game are
] full of this
] elements the new player will be member of your game group for years.
I've never had any trouble getting people interested in playing Champs. I
think that people will bear with you for a few sessions until the game falls
into a groove. A solo session for everyone before your first session can
help everyone get up to speed at their own pace. Once they get a grip on how
to do the math, the flexibility compared with other systems is intoxicating
to them.
BRI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:47:23 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@viser.net>
Subject: Hero stuff
>The art work is terrible. They could call some new talents to do the
>internal arts, and some big hit to do the cover. Adam Hughes is perfect
>but he is very expansive, but Art Adams isn't, and he is a master Fan
>Boy...
Some of the art is good, some is ok, some needs replacing, but Art Adams is
NOT cheap, and he is very very slow. I suggest that Hero boys look around
for fans who do art and check some web pages for artists who work cheaper
and out of love of the game (as an off hand example, umm off the top of my
head, perhaps www.viser.net/~joelat/artpage.htm is an example... ok so its
my page heheh)
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:37:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
> Chris Hartjes wrote:
> > On 14 Dec, Steven J. Owens wrote:
> What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the
> promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa
> have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire
> 3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot
> of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the
> shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice
OTOH, I understand that the readers of Inquest picked Champions as the #1
RPG.
> Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And sometimes it sounds
> like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote
> the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good
> comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
I don't know how the DC/Wildstorm deal went, but I suppose Jim Lee could
still make a deal for a Champions:Wildstorm sourcebook, but gads, those
characters are expensive. (Well, some of them are. But a bunch of them
are darn expensive.)
> I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character
> ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new
> pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
The big problem with Champions is that it's not a game that folks can
generally pick up at a game store and come home to play the next night.
Most folks (at least locally) came into Champions by joining an existing
group (or joining a group of folks who have played Champions in the past
and are starting up again). My group played Villains and Vigilantes in
high school, in spite of the clunky system, because it was so much easier
to pick up than Champions. These days, when someone joins our Champions
game, one of the experienced players will take the player aside, get an
idea of what they want out of their character and make the character for
them. Eventually, they get the hang of it, but it's pretty hard to make a
good first character.
I suspect that, without "sponsors" into Champions, most folks are going to
gravitate to other supers games. Presumably the new Marvel game, which
does sound really easy to pick up.
- --
Rick Jones That's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that
rick@blkbox.com leads to being eaten.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Principal Snyder,Buffy The Vampire Slayer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:35:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ell Egyptoid <egyptoid@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed)
Can the originator of this thread restate the desired effects
of the power again? I've read so much different stuff I've gotten
real fuzzy on what was desired again.
Try to describe the desired super-power and not use any game
system terms in the verbage. Like say "the target will be
held immobile, will be covered by a transparent energy field
that lets in energy attacks but blocks movements and physical
attacks" or whatever it does. If you could just describe the
effects, I'd like to take a second look at this.
==
Laissez le bon pim roulez! Elliott aka Egyptoid
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:08:02 -0500
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com>
Subject: the cottage game weekend
Hey,
I wanted to relate this gaming tradition to you guys. If you really like to
game, I highly recommend something like this.
At any given time, my friends and I are usually involved in an alpha game as
well as some smaller games on the side that we play when scheduling is a
problem for the alpha game.
So, on a weekend where everyone in the alpha game is totally free, we pack
everyone into a car or two and head to my family's cottage. The cottage
roads aren't plowed so we have to carry in water, food, pot, game books and
whatnot through about a mile of snow. Then, in complete isolation from the
world, we put in about thirty hours of gaming between 11pm Friday and 5pm
Sunday, breaking only to eat, sleep, go outside and blow a spliff.
I don't know how this works for a supers game, but it's absolutely ideal for
a FH campaign. The best thing about this kind of total game immersion, is
that you're not pressed for time. It's not like jamming in a session on
Sunday afternoon. You can enjoy your environment and game at the same time.
For instance, if the players are travelling somewhere, take everyone on a
hike through the woods in character. Sure it sounds stupid but you're not
going to run into any "real" people so you can be idiotic. If you want to
scrap a forest troll, try and knock over a dead tree as fast as you can, the
bigger the tree the more exciting the fight. The weed make this kind of
thing more fun but if you don't partake, no problem, you've just got to get
ready to get silly.
The downside is going to the outhouse at 5am when it's -10C [that's um...
14F]. Carrying all that water into the cottage also kind of sucks, but at
least you don't have to carry it out. If you live somewhere warmer than I
do, you probably won't have to worry about this, but then, you won't be able
to walk out on the lake and follow the deer trails either.
Other treats include campfires, testing range modifiers with snowballs,
contests of strength and shooting the air gun at targets with drawings of
your hunted taped to them. If you have a real gun, well that can be fun too,
just don't be an idiot, right?
I should probably point out that if you're emotionally unstable and you're
ever going to "flip out" in character, it will be in a situation like this
so if you or someone you game with is the sort of person who gets secret
messages from their Type O Negative CD's, this is not a good idea. You may
not know who you are but your friends do.
It's important to be really ready for a weekend session like this.
Typically, we go through the equivalent of about 5 or 6 sessions and players
earn 16 or 20 points so it should be timed with a climactic event or
resolution to a long running plot arc.
I've seen people do this camping in tents. You can achieve the same kind of
effect but it's much more inconvenient.
Right, so does anyone else get into something like this? Has anybody got
another type of gaming retreat or Ultimate Gaming Environment?
Brian Wawrow
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. it is the source of all true
art and science"
- Albert Einstein
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:28:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For Printable Hex Maps
Greetings!
- ---Wayne Shaw wrote:
>
> Anybody checked this recently? I just was over there and the links to
> Hexmap 4.5 and any of the other programs at the same addy don't seem to work
> for me.
>
Wayne, I didn't have any problem downloading HM4.5 but, when I unzipped
it, installed it and tried to run it, I got an error message that said
"Actor31p" had caused HM to perform an illegal action and HM was being shut
down.
I don't even know what (or, possibly WHO) Actor31p is, but enticing a
perfectly innocent program into illegal actions sounds like a misdemeanor at
the very least.
Book 'em, Dano!
Dale A. Ward
<Patrolling The Net... To Protect And Serve>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:05:51 -0800 (PST)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
> I'm not personally familiar with the Fuzion rules, but the
>conclusions I've drawn from skimming the book and talking to many
>players (and listening on this mailing list) is that they were a
>serious attempt to overhaul the rules and make the game more
>accessible - perhaps too serious, in that they alienated many of the
>existing player base. This is bad for the obvious reason that the
>existing customer base is what will keep the game going and will help
>new players get into the game. The trick is to keep the existing
>customer base, the existing players, and to keep the existing game
>going. Otherwise you might as well just start a whole new game and
>start from scratch.
The big problem with Fuzion from where I sit...and people can tell you I'm
anything but a heavy duty Fuzion basher...was that it threw out too much
baby with the bathwater. It's accessibility was gained at the price of
making the system simpler in ways that, IMO, just don't work right in too
many cases. This doesn't even go into the issue of the fact the system by
it's plug-in approach is actually less coherent overall than Hero. In some
cases that may be a virtue; it's certainly argued by some people that one of
the things that puts some people off of Hero is that with all the
Limitations and Advantages and fooling around in the world, the system was
originally designed for superheroes, and it tends to show in places even
when you're using it elsewhere. But the whole point is that the reason it
was designed as it was is because a superhero game needs to be able to cover
everything, and in a way that fits together consistently. Hero isn't
perfect in that regard but it's pretty close. On that particular ground
(along with problems with the subtractor/adder system) Fuzion actually
diluted one of Hero's strengths. At this stage in Fuzion's evolution I
can't consider it a particularly successful experiment from where I sit.
>
> Some solutions that occur to me are:
>
> 1) Introduce intermediate levels of abstraction
> power blocks
> character templates
I've thought these might be a good idea for some time.
> 2) Make power levels uniform and hard, so supplements can be
> painlessly and reliably used
The problem there is that then the suppliments are less useful for the
experienced user...it'd be like having all D&D suppliments done universally
for characters in the 4-6th level range.
> 3) Following 1 and 2, make supplements that are more focused on
> mechanistic, usable character stats, etc.
Not sure what you mean here; let me see below.
> 4) Work on making the existing champions/hero system gaming
> culture welcome the new blood.
I'll comment on this more below.
>
>Power Blocks
>
> Introduce an intermediate level of abstraction - something
>between the full-blown character and power construction rules and
>pre-generated characters. Take the rules and design "power blocks",
>typical writeups of typical superhero powers, priced at multiple
>levels, so the average gamer can just select the power blocks that the
>player wants and add them to the character sheet.
>
Only problem I can see here is that this could be enormously space
consumptive to do right.
>Uniform Power Levels
>
> Champions and the hero system already have power levels and they
>have the fairly nifty "Rule of X" that was discussed in a recent
>thread on this list, but the power levels are far too vague and far to
>seldomly followed to make them useful for neophyte gamemasters. The
>key is that the neophyte gamemaster needs to buy a supplement and not
>have to do any customization to play the game.
>
> For example, make power levels roughly 40/60/80 points. Call
>them street-level, superheroic, and galactic. Derive appropriate
>active points, defenses and damage classes from those point ranges.
>Now *require* that all Hero/Champions products adhere strictly to
>these power levels; providing duplicate character sets for other power
>levels is viable, but the key is that if the cover says "a supplement
>for street-level champions", the contents have to be "ready to roll"
>at that level.
>
See my earlier comment. In addition, other than just sticking a label on
the product, what does 'adhering' to these power levels mean? All the
opponents must fit in that power level? It's a non-sequitor. Staples of
the genre include heroes fighting both a large number of weaker foes, and
being forced to do teamwork to defeat a much more powerful one. Trying to
judge whether a product is really for one specific power level could be
problematic in the extreme.
>
>Mechanistic GM Source Material
<Not sure I really agree with this one, but I don't have a coherent enough
response to be worth posting.>
> Speed is a bit trickier.
>
> I like the way SPD in champions allows complex actions, even with
>the "stutter-movement" effect it creates. Using a more realistic
>system would be far too cumbersome. Using a less realistic system runs
>the risk of losing the essence of the game. However, I've noticed
>that in games the SPDs tend to cluster around certain ranges anyway.
>Conceivably you could replace numeric speed with low, medium, and
>high, maybe with slight tweaks for flavor.
SPD also allows part of the melee system to work a bit closer to correct;
having played a lot of martial artists over the years, my conclusion is that
use of the phasing system properly is necessary to get the right amount out
of the block and dodge manuevers.
> Let's say we go with 4/6/8. By defining these as power blocks,
>you still leave the door open for guru gamers to use the full SPD
>chart, but typical gamers just have "normal (heroic)", "fast" (gets an
>extra action every other action) and "very fast" (gets an extra action
>every action).
This is probably workable. I'm not sure it'd save much, though.
One thing I've concluded is that a change in how Saving Actions works should
likely be implimented; it's proven to be an enormous time saver locally.
Particularly with large groups, one of the things that can slow things down
is the fact that there is inevitably a certain amount of attention drift,
people out of the room when their phase rolls around, and so on. Simply
skipping the phase of people who aren't paying attention or can't decide
builds bad feeling; but if you wait for everyone, it slows things down
noticeably. I found that if I had people automatically save an action in
those situations, and simply allowed them to use it any time until their
next phase (with a DEX roll versus DEX roll if they were trying to interrupt
someone else) it cut out enormous amounts of waste time.
>Culture
>
> Part of this might involve the existing player base and the
>culture we develop and promulgate. I personally detest collectible
>card games, for example, but I have to admit that they did a hell of a
>lot to popularize gaming into the mainstream.
Whether they actually did anything for the RPG part of the hobby is subject
to debate however.
>
> As one example, not that I think this is a problem now, but it
>might become one: We have to recognize that we're going to see new
>players and that they're not going to be up to the "standards" we
>currently have - particularly if some of the suggestions below ever
>come to pass. We have to embrace the new players anyway, whether
>they're people who just want to pull out a character sheet and play,
>overdramatic Vampire and Goth players, or eight-year-old comic book
>fans who want to play their favorite heroes.
"Have" to is a hard term. I think it's a virtue to get new players into the
hobby and particularly Champions, but honestly, there are extremes that
should not be playing together. All they do is reduce the fun for one another.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:09:44 -0800
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com>
Subject: Re: VIPER Revision
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Some response to VIPER revision ideas.
Christopher Taylor wrote:
I personally would like to see a more staged approach, so that you could
show Viper at various power levels, a couple full layouts and write ups of
bases, more tech, and a list of crimes and ways that Viper makes money. I
would love to see a big list of scenarios, short paragraph style ones,
longer writeups of a few paragraphs (see Fantasy Hero for how they did it),
in addition to the full sized ones in the book.
These definitely would be things that are worth doing.
#
Glen Sprigg wrote:
I don't think there would be any need to reprint all the characters;
perhaps all that would be needed would be an update on what they are up to,
which ones are dead, which ones are on the run from VIPER, and how they've
spent their Experience Points. New characters are another matter; VIPER is
always recruiting.
An update is certainly a good idea, and could be done independently of any
revision. Perhaps I'll try one on Hero's website some time.
Equipment is a must; what nasty stuff have the VIPER techs developed
lately? There were some projected items, slated to be done by 1998...we're
here!
Unfortunately, VIPER's projects were supervised by producers who had gotten
their start in the computer game industry, so their estimates were way off.
("Our independent analysis says that the Steel Serpents won't be operational
until 2012! You're fired! Guards, dispose of this incompetent!")
Seriously though, some of VIPER's projects may have been completed; hopefully
some hero somewhere managed to throw the nastier ones off schedule. But a few
new technological projects would be put in development and should be detailed.
Actually, I think that what is needed is an UNTIL writeup like the VIPER
book. Maybe not quite as big, but the brief thing in Hero Almanac II
wasn't sufficient. I'd like to see stats for the UNTIL AI that's playing
its game with the Supreme Serpent. After all, if VIPER and UNTIL are big
enemies, they need to be equal. So maybe that's a project Hero should be
working on.
Steve Long was working on UNTIL some time ago; I suspect the work may be
subsumed into an UNTIL project for CNM, where the next VIPER revision is almost
certain to occur.
#
Bob Greenwade said:
1. Update all characters to 5th Edition. (That much is actually pretty
obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.) Arguably, also
utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books.
Yes, it's obvious. I really like Ultimate Martial Artist. The only trouble is
that I don't like to require the GM to have more than the basic book when using
a supplement. But this could be handled in the powers notes.
2. Give the existing supervillain characters some Experience.
I'd rather suggest where the GM might want to give experience in the adjusting
power level section, rather than evolve the character, or put together
templates for important characters at varying power levels. Otherwise, it
encourages power escalation in the supplements.
3. Add a couple of solo villains.
Actually, I thought there were too many. Maybe I'm wrong.
4. Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- not because he
sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him leaving
VIPER. (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.)
Probably a good idea, though perhaps a scenario could detail some problems with
Castle Security leading him to be tempted to return to the fold, and give the
PCs a chance to help him stay on the straight and narrow.
The ironic thing was that I designed Citadel in Villainy Unbound as a character
who'd *never* leave VIPER. I was rather tired of the "villain betrays VIPER
motif". But Brannon did a great job with him in Castle Inc.
5. Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected corporations (at least a
dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the Corporations
sourcebook.
Definitely. Corporations is a pretty good template for that sort of thing.
6. Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to also include "How VIPER
Hunts Your Character's Enemies." If the PCs are dealing with (for example)
the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved?
Good idea. BTW, I wanted to kill off Power Crusher in VIPER, but Sean Fannon,
who had just made the Crusher Gang for Champions Universe, cried "foul". Sean's
no fun. :-) I had wanted to have VIPER get back at one of its traitors *just
once*. It probably wasn't necessary, though I'm sure VIPER would have loved to
have released "How VIPER Deals With Traitors II: The Crushing of Power
Crusher".
7. Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest info"
on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States. Talk to Champions
players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in
their area, and include that information. For example, I know Shelley
Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on
her website), and I have some material for the latest Portland.
What? What has that Shelley person ever done that was worth looking at? :-)
Seriously, this is a great idea, though it could quickly blow up into a
supplement by itself.
8. Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal
with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions). In fact, a new
scenario could be centered around this. The point, though, is that VIPER
will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed to deal
with specific individuals. VIPER could even have special task forces to
deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the Silver
Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if they
become troublesome enough.
A good idea, though I think advice needs to be given on how to give clues to
PCs when they're being hunted and how to run a "VIPER hunts the PCs scenario".
9. I'm also wondering if the vehicles couldn't be nearly as modular as
the agents -- that is, let the Quetzalcoatl Mk III (for instance) have a
selection of three or four weapons that could be mounted on it.
Good idea.
10. Include an entire section where each other Champions Universe
organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how VIPER
regards and deals with that organization. (Each would be a quarter-page to
a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.)
VIPER does that to an extent; expansion is always possible.
Geoff Depew wrote:
> <I forwarded this to my Champions GM -who recently subscribed to the list -
> and this is the response he sent back.>
>
> >Well, this is a lengthy question. I have done several things with VIPER
> >in my game that many of you may find repulsive. I have, thanks to the
> >wonders of genetic manipulation, eliminated the focus limitation for
> >those flying VIPER agents. (That would be...Flight Endorphin Viper
> >Agents)
My own preference is for genetic manipulation to be relative uncommon, for the
same reasons you give for power armor later.
> >I had Pulsar rejoin VIPER. He's been much more successful since then.
> >He's not even unlucky anymore. And now he has an energy blast for
> >everyone. Old Villains should get old, and tougher.
That could be fun. I think Pulsar and VIPER would be a decent fit. He'd have to
mature a little bit.
> >VIPER Force One: I have YET to see a group that does not scream, bitch,
> >and moan when I take these guys out of the box. I LOVE them, but my
> >players hate them. Keep them anyway, but please, please, do something
> >about Mirror Man? That character is ridiculous. His getaway method is to
> >never send the primary duplicate into combat and to have Chasm carry a
> >Change Environment Darkness Grenade. Let's be serious, people. This is
> >twinky.
Well, all villains should scream bitch and moan when used out of the box. It's
a GM's job to adjust them for the campaign. As for Mirror Man, we could have
him broken into little bits somewhere. I like killing villains... :-)
> >VIPER Force Two: Well, within a week, this group is going to cease to
> >be, because more than likely, Armstrong will be the new Golden Avenger,
> >and the Current Golden Avenger, AKA Adolf Hitler, will be either in
> >Stronghold or dead. To request details of the "Golden Ages" plotline,
> >conceived in the first feverish days of my champions campaign eleven
> >years ago and finally coming to fruition now, mail me separately at
> >msatran1@hotmail.com. I think it's an interesting variation, if not a
> >publishable adventure. (Unlike the previous foray into Naziism by Hero
> >Games, this one clearly features Hitler as a Villain, and therefore is
> >more politically safe) However, I like them...keep them.
Sounds like fun. Actually, given your later comments on the Supreme Serpent,
Armstrong or someone like him might actually be a good fit for that role with a
little bit of a boost. Either him or Python.
> >Most of the book is really quite good, but I noticed some things
> >missing.
> >1) VIPER Assault Helicopters. These are a must. You cannot fight heroes
> >in urban environments without VTOLS and the maneuverability they
> >provide.
Agreed. Helicopters are also easier to hide than larger aircraft. VIPER needs
hover snakes.
> >2) Why in the name of god do they need to compete with COIL? King Cobra
> >is a power mad looney, but he's still a looney. The "Battle over a Snake
> >Motif" is slightly silly.
Well, Cliff liked it. And sometimes when you get into a vendetta, you just
can't leave it alone. VIPER has a lot of problems with this.
> >3) RAVEN is hardly integral. Just eliminate them.
I think that Dark Champions pretty much takes care of this.
> >4) Give the PC's a smart, canny Supreme Serpent who is human rather than
> >this bizarre alien computer concept. The concept of VIPER is trained
> >agents with supervillain support. Give him military skills, training,
> >and a nasty gun, with a gadget pool. Have there be political maneuvering
> >between his top dogs to get the position when he dies.
See Armstrong above. Of course, this is awfully similar to Strucker, or Cobra
Commander, for that matter, though the military skills is debatable on the
latter.
> 5) VIPER Power Armor. If this happens to any significant degree, it is
> >over for heroes everywhere. Why have supers at all? Just mass produce
> >your power armor and go for it. You can have almost any effect except
> >magic.
Which is why the power armor is either a) relatively weak (Steel Serpent's an
improvement on the Turtle armor concept, but not *that* much; a Genocide Pawn
would laugh at it.), b) expensive (the really good armor is too expensive and
complex to mass produce; let's see someone reverse engineer Dr. Destroyer's
armor), or c) unreliable. Perhaps including new armors with some backlash
effects for failed rolls ("Captain Hank tried to activate that new flight
system yesterday, and it fried his ass. No one's gonna touch the Flying Fox
now, 'cept at gunpoint.")
I tend to agree with the general view on battlesuits=mass produced
superhumans=world dominance, which is why technology in my current campaign is
a lot more limited.
> >6) More robots, some tougher, some weaker.
Robots are always fun, and provides a good reason to lower the number of agents
in the fight (which speeds up the combat, therefore a good thing).
> >7) More tanks. The lack of a standard medium sized hovertank is a
> significant weakness.
Yes, although I'd probably go more for smaller armored vehicles that are easier
to hide in urban settings. Also, VIPER needs APCs in the worst way.
> >8) VIPER doesn't need any more weapons.
Whimper... Actually, I think a couple new guns to through players off who are
too familiar with the current mix would be okay. I'd like to add some medium
powered weapons with some good ranged scopes, and remove or downplay the
weapons with the really hefty OCV bonuses, changing the OCV bonuses to range
bonuses.
> >9) Viper needs more independant villains who aren't goofy and silly. A
> >lot of the ones in the book are either too tough, too weak, or too silly
> >to use. Old Classics like Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, and others should also
> >be redone.
The power level issue is why advice on adjusting their power level was given
for the characters in the book. As for the silliness, there's a place for it,
in moderation. Not every campaign has the same tone.
> >10) Worst problem with VIPER. VIPER has too many skills now. You can
> >take three agents and kill a hero in his secret ID with the new way some
> >of these agents are set up. VIPER is supposed to be a dangerous
> >opponent. Not an unbeatable one.
Well, that's really a GM call. You have the same problem with supervillains or
even the mob if you give them enough investigative skills. Champions in
general should give some GMing advice on how to deal with this sort of thing,
mostly along the lines of "always give the player a clue that their secret ID
is being investigated and give them an opportunity to respond so they can
protect it."
> >11) Get rid of the find weakness on VIPER agents. That's ridiculous.
> >It's unbalancing on heroes. Think about what happens if every VIPER
> >agent has it. "How do I get Find Weakness with my gun? I was trained by
> >VIPER, they've all got it, by god."
Yes, but... it's a major breach of continuity. Why would VIPER stop training
their agents to find a weak spot? I'd rather not retcon this ability away from
them.
> >12) More Planes. VIPER could use some more planes. With missiles, this
> >time. Missiles are a great way to stop the heroes from attacking agents.
> >Just shoot a random building and watch the fun.
Finally. It must be noted that a new VIPER project for Champions 4th/5th is not
in the works. Cliff and I discussed a second VIPER project after VIPER came
out; I wanted to do a book that focused on adventures, and Nest layouts, and
keep the new villains down to a minimum, since I felt that VIPER was a little
overstuffed with them - new villains would mostly have been Nest Leaders. But
given that I (and a lot of good friends) had gone for years without being paid
by ICE, I felt it'd be counterproductive to do any more work for them. (BTW,
ICE did eventually pay off its bills, after Hero took the license back and the
Middle Earth CCG gave ICE a needed cash boost).
Thanks for the feedback. So no one wanted to kill Viperia?
Scott Bennie
- --------------6F0600B8BC565655A929EE49
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Some response to VIPER revision ideas.<I></I>
<P><I>Christopher Taylor wrote:</I><I></I>
<P><I>I personally would like to see a more staged approach, so that you
could</I>
<BR><I>show Viper at various power levels, a couple full layouts and write
ups of</I>
<BR><I>bases, more tech, and a list of crimes and ways that Viper makes
money. I</I>
<BR><I>would love to see a big list of scenarios, short paragraph style
ones,</I>
<BR><I>longer writeups of a few paragraphs (see Fantasy Hero for how they
did it),</I>
<BR><I>in addition to the full sized ones in the book.</I>
<P>These definitely would be things that are worth doing.
<CENTER>#</CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<I>Glen Sprigg wrote:</I>
<P><I>I don't think there would be any need to reprint all the characters;</I>
<BR><I>perhaps all that would be needed would be an update on what they
are up to,</I>
<BR><I>which ones are dead, which ones are on the run from VIPER, and how
they've</I>
<BR><I>spent their Experience Points. New characters are another
matter; VIPER is</I>
<BR><I>always recruiting.</I><I></I>
<P>An update is certainly a good idea, and could be done independently
of any revision. Perhaps I'll try one on Hero's website some time.<I></I>
<P><I>Equipment is a must; what nasty stuff have the VIPER techs developed</I>
<BR><I>lately? There were some projected items, slated to be done
by 1998...we're</I>
<BR><I>here!</I><I></I>
<P>Unfortunately, VIPER's projects were supervised by producers who had
gotten their start in the computer game industry, so their estimates were
way off. ("Our independent analysis says that the Steel Serpents won't
be operational until 2012! You're fired! Guards, dispose of this incompetent!")
<P>Seriously though, some of VIPER's projects may have been completed;
hopefully some hero somewhere managed to throw the nastier ones off schedule.
But a few new technological projects would be put in development and should
be detailed.<I></I>
<P><I>Actually, I think that what is needed is an UNTIL writeup like the
VIPER</I>
<BR><I>book. Maybe not quite as big, but the brief thing in Hero
Almanac II</I>
<BR><I>wasn't sufficient. I'd like to see stats for the UNTIL AI
that's playing</I>
<BR><I>its game with the Supreme Serpent. After all, if VIPER and
UNTIL are big</I>
<BR><I>enemies, they need to be equal. So maybe that's a project
Hero should be</I>
<BR><I>working on.</I><I></I>
<P>Steve Long was working on UNTIL some time ago; I suspect the work may
be subsumed into an UNTIL project for CNM, where the next VIPER revision
is almost certain to occur.
<CENTER><I>#</I></CENTER>
<I></I>
<P><I>Bob Greenwade said:</I><I></I>
<P><I>1. Update all characters to 5th Edition. (That much is
actually pretty</I>
<BR><I>obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.) Arguably,
also</I>
<BR><I>utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books.</I>
<P>Yes, it's obvious. I really like Ultimate Martial Artist. The only trouble
is that I don't like to require the GM to have more than the basic book
when using a supplement. But this could be handled in the powers notes.
<P> <I>2. Give the existing supervillain characters some Experience.</I>
<P>I'd rather suggest where the GM might want to give experience in the
adjusting power level section, rather than evolve the character, or put
together templates for important characters at varying power levels. Otherwise,
it encourages power escalation in the supplements.
<P><I>3. Add a couple of solo villains.</I>
<P>Actually, I thought there were too many. Maybe I'm wrong.
<P><I>4. Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- not because
he</I>
<BR><I>sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him
leaving</I>
<BR><I>VIPER. (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.)</I><I></I>
<P>Probably a good idea, though perhaps a scenario could detail some problems
with Castle Security leading him to be tempted to return to the fold, and
give the PCs a chance to help him stay on the straight and narrow.
<P>The ironic thing was that I designed Citadel in <I>Villainy Unbound</I>
as a character who'd *never* leave VIPER. I was rather tired of the "villain
betrays VIPER motif". But Brannon did a great job with him in Castle Inc.
<P> <I>5. Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected
corporations (at least a</I>
<BR><I>dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the Corporations</I>
<BR><I>sourcebook.</I>
<P>Definitely. Corporations is a pretty good template for that sort of
thing.
<P> <I> 6. Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to
also include "How VIPER</I>
<BR><I>Hunts Your Character's Enemies." If the PCs are dealing with
(for example)</I>
<BR><I>the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved?</I><I></I>
<P>Good idea. BTW, I wanted to kill off Power Crusher in VIPER, but Sean
Fannon, who had just made the Crusher Gang for Champions Universe, cried
"foul". Sean's no fun. :-) I had wanted to have VIPER get back at one of
its traitors *just once*. It probably wasn't necessary, though I'm sure
VIPER would have loved to have released "How VIPER Deals With Traitors
II: The Crushing of Power Crusher".
<P> <I> 7. Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to
cover "the latest info"</I>
<BR><I>on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States. Talk to
Champions</I>
<BR><I>players from around the country to see what they've done with nests
in</I>
<BR><I>their area, and include that information. For example, I know
Shelley</I>
<BR><I>Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest
(it's on</I>
<BR><I>her website), and I have some material for the latest Portland.</I><I></I>
<P>What? What has that Shelley person ever done that was worth looking
at? :-) Seriously, this is a great idea, though it could quickly blow up
into a supplement by itself.
<P> <I> 8. Present a handful of weapons that are specifically
designed to deal</I>
<BR><I>with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions). In fact,
a new</I>
<BR><I>scenario could be centered around this. The point, though,
is that VIPER</I>
<BR><I>will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed
to deal</I>
<BR><I>with specific individuals. VIPER could even have special task
forces to</I>
<BR><I>deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the
Silver</I>
<BR><I>Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if
they</I>
<BR><I>become troublesome enough.</I><I></I>
<P>A good idea, though I think advice needs to be given on how to give
clues to PCs when they're being hunted and how to run a "VIPER hunts the
PCs scenario".
<P> <I> 9. I'm also wondering if the vehicles couldn't
be nearly as modular as</I>
<BR><I>the agents -- that is, let the Quetzalcoatl Mk III (for instance)
have a</I>
<BR><I>selection of three or four weapons that could be mounted on it.</I><I></I>
<P>Good idea.
<P> <I> 10. Include an entire section where each other
Champions Universe</I>
<BR><I>organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how
VIPER</I>
<BR><I>regards and deals with that organization. (Each would be a
quarter-page to</I>
<BR><I>a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.)</I>
<P>VIPER does that to an extent; expansion is always possible.
<P><I>Geoff Depew wrote:</I>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><I forwarded this to my Champions GM -who recently
subscribed to the list -
<BR>and this is the response he sent back.>
<P>>Well, this is a lengthy question. I have done several things with VIPER
<BR>>in my game that many of you may find repulsive. I have, thanks to
the
<BR>>wonders of genetic manipulation, eliminated the focus limitation for
<BR>>those flying VIPER agents. (That would be...Flight Endorphin Viper
<BR>>Agents)</BLOCKQUOTE>
My own preference is for genetic manipulation to be relative uncommon,
for the same reasons you give for power armor later.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>I had Pulsar rejoin VIPER. He's been much more successful
since then.
<BR>>He's not even unlucky anymore. And now he has an energy blast for
<BR>>everyone. Old Villains should get old, and tougher.</BLOCKQUOTE>
That could be fun. I think Pulsar and VIPER would be a decent fit. He'd
have to mature a little bit.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>VIPER Force One: I have YET to see a group that
does not scream, bitch,
<BR>>and moan when I take these guys out of the box. I LOVE them, but my
<BR>>players hate them. Keep them anyway, but please, please, do something
<BR>>about Mirror Man? That character is ridiculous. His getaway method
is to
<BR>>never send the primary duplicate into combat and to have Chasm carry
a
<BR>>Change Environment Darkness Grenade. Let's be serious, people. This
is
<BR>>twinky.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, all villains should scream bitch and moan when used out of the box.
It's a GM's job to adjust them for the campaign. As for Mirror Man, we
could have him broken into little bits somewhere. I like killing villains...
:-)
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>VIPER Force Two: Well, within a week, this group
is going to cease to
<BR>>be, because more than likely, Armstrong will be the new Golden Avenger,
<BR>>and the Current Golden Avenger, AKA Adolf Hitler, will be either in
<BR>>Stronghold or dead. To request details of the "Golden Ages" plotline,
<BR>>conceived in the first feverish days of my champions campaign eleven
<BR>>years ago and finally coming to fruition now, mail me separately at
<BR>>msatran1@hotmail.> I think it's an interesting variation, if not
a
<BR>>publishable adventure. (Unlike the previous foray into Naziism by
Hero
<BR>>Games, this one clearly features Hitler as a Villain, and therefore
is
<BR>>more politically safe) However, I like them...keep them.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like fun. Actually, given your later comments on the Supreme Serpent,
Armstrong or someone like him might actually be a good fit for that role
with a little bit of a boost. Either him or Python.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>Most of the book is really quite good, but I noticed
some things
<BR>>missing.
<BR>>1) VIPER Assault Helicopters. These are a must. You cannot fight heroes
<BR>>in urban environments without VTOLS and the maneuverability they
<BR>>provide.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed. Helicopters are also easier to hide than larger aircraft. VIPER
needs hover snakes.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>2) Why in the name of god do they need to compete
with COIL? King Cobra
<BR>>is a power mad looney, but he's still a looney. The "Battle over a
Snake
<BR>>Motif" is slightly silly.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, Cliff liked it. And sometimes when you get into a vendetta, you just
can't leave it alone. VIPER has a lot of problems with this.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>3) RAVEN is hardly integral. Just eliminate them.</BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that Dark Champions pretty much takes care of this.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>4) Give the PC's a smart, canny Supreme Serpent
who is human rather than
<BR>>this bizarre alien computer concept. The concept of VIPER is trained
<BR>>agents with supervillain support. Give him military skills, training,
<BR>>and a nasty gun, with a gadget pool. Have there be political maneuvering
<BR>>between his top dogs to get the position when he dies.</BLOCKQUOTE>
See Armstrong above. Of course, this is awfully similar to Strucker, or
Cobra Commander, for that matter, though the military skills is debatable
on the latter.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>5) VIPER Power Armor. If this happens to any significant
degree, it is
<BR>>over for heroes everywhere. Why have supers at all? Just mass produce
<BR>>your power armor and go for it. You can have almost any effect except
<BR>>magic.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is why the power armor is either a) relatively weak (Steel Serpent's
an improvement on the Turtle armor concept, but not *that* much; a Genocide
Pawn would laugh at it.), b) expensive (the really good armor is too expensive
and complex to mass produce; let's see someone reverse engineer Dr. Destroyer's
armor), or c) unreliable. Perhaps including new armors with some backlash
effects for failed rolls ("Captain Hank tried to activate that new flight
system yesterday, and it fried his ass. No one's gonna touch the Flying
Fox now, 'cept at gunpoint.")<BR>
<BR>I tend to agree with the general view on battlesuits=mass produced superhumans=world
dominance, which is why technology in my current campaign is a lot more
limited.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>6) More robots, some tougher, some weaker.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Robots are always fun, and provides a good reason to lower the number of
agents in the fight (which speeds up the combat, therefore a good thing).
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>7) More tanks. The lack of a standard medium sized
hovertank is a significant weakness.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, although I'd probably go more for smaller armored vehicles that are
easier to hide in urban settings. Also, VIPER needs APCs in the worst way.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>8) VIPER doesn't need any more weapons.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Whimper... Actually, I think a couple new guns to through players off who
are too familiar with the current mix would be okay. I'd like to add some
medium powered weapons with some good ranged scopes, and remove or downplay
the weapons with the really hefty OCV bonuses, changing the OCV bonuses
to range bonuses.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>9) Viper needs more independant villains who aren't
goofy and silly. A
<BR>>lot of the ones in the book are either too tough, too weak, or too
silly
<BR>>to use. Old Classics like Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, and others should
also
<BR>>be redone.</BLOCKQUOTE>
The power level issue is why advice on adjusting their power level was
given for the characters in the book. As for the silliness, there's a place
for it, in moderation. Not every campaign has the same tone.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>10) Worst problem with VIPER. VIPER has too many
skills now. You can
<BR>>take three agents and kill a hero in his secret ID with the new way
some
<BR>>of these agents are set up. VIPER is supposed to be a dangerous
<BR>>opponent. Not an unbeatable one.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, that's really a GM call. You have the same problem with supervillains
or even the mob if you give them enough investigative skills. Champions
in general should give some GMing advice on how to deal with this
sort of thing, mostly along the lines of "always give the player a clue
that their secret ID is being investigated and give them an opportunity
to respond so they can protect it."
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>11) Get rid of the find weakness on VIPER agents.
That's ridiculous.
<BR>>It's unbalancing on heroes. Think about what happens if every VIPER
<BR>>agent has it. "How do I get Find Weakness with my gun? I was trained
by
<BR>>VIPER, they've all got it, by god."</BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but... it's a major breach of continuity. Why would VIPER stop training
their agents to find a weak spot? I'd rather not retcon this ability away
from them.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>12) More Planes. VIPER could use some more planes.
With missiles, this
<BR>>time. Missiles are a great way to stop the heroes from attacking agents.
<BR>>Just shoot a random building and watch the fun.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally. It must be noted that a new VIPER project for Champions 4th/5th
is not in the works. Cliff and I discussed a second VIPER project after
VIPER came out; I wanted to do a book that focused on adventures, and Nest
layouts, and keep the new villains down to a minimum, since I felt that
VIPER was a little overstuffed with them - new villains would mostly have
been Nest Leaders. But given that I (and a lot of good friends) had gone
for years without being paid by ICE, I felt it'd be counterproductive to
do any more work for them. (BTW, ICE did eventually pay off its bills,
after Hero took the license back and the Middle Earth CCG gave ICE a needed
cash boost).
<P>Thanks for the feedback. So no one wanted to kill Viperia?
<P>Scott Bennie</HTML>
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End of champ-l-digest V1 #92
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Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 04:20 PM