Digest Archives Vol 1 Issue 93
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:41 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #93
champ-l-digest Monday, December 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 093
In this issue:
Re: the cottage game weekend
I can't believe I'm asking about this...
Re: VIPER Revision
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: Critique Needed: Fiendish Plot
UNTIL (was "Re: VIPER Revision")
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: Making Champions Accessible OR being the Champs pusher
Re: I can't believe I'm asking about this...
Re: Making Champions Accessible
Re: Updated VIPER
[Fwd: Making Champions Accessible]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:15:54 -0800
From: "John Jerles" <jjerles@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: the cottage game weekend
The best gaming atmosphere that I have ever been in was with a group of friends in Dover, England. We were in the military at the time and we were helping some friends get ready for a big SCA meet at Dover Castle.
The Castle was pretty much closed down for the season so we had a good portion of it to ourselves for 2 days before the SCA meet. There is nothing like a good fantasy game being played atop a castle wall.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 12/14/98, at 1:25 PM, Brian Wawrow wrote:
>Hey,
>
>I wanted to relate this gaming tradition to you guys. If you really like to
>game, I highly recommend something like this.
>
<Splif blowing gaming story snipped>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:44:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@njcu.edu>
Subject: I can't believe I'm asking about this...
Are there FUZION rules in *.TXT, *.HTML, or some other format on-line or
otherwise available?
- -+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
- -=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:10:47 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: VIPER Revision
At 1:09 PM -0800 12/14/98, Scott Bennie wrote:
> <italic> 7. Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the
latest info"
>on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States. Talk to Champions
>players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in
>their area, and include that information. For example, I know Shelley
>Mactyre has done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's
on
>her website), and I have some material for the latest Portland.
</italic>>
>What? What has that Shelley person ever done that was worth looking
at? :-) Seriously, this is a great idea, though it could quickly blow
up into a supplement by itself.
<<snicker> Actually, just for clarification's sake, it was the Las
Vegas nest, and my friend Jennifer did all the hard work!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:07:56 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
Chris Hartjes wrote:
>
> On 14 Dec, Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
> >
> >
> > What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the
> > promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa
> > have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire
> > 3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot
> > of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the
> > shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice
> > productwith a good art and a solid system. Good art sell a lot of books.
> > Look to DP9 products. Average game system, good world amazing interior
> > art...
>
> I have to agree with you that the noise made by players and the
> promotion team is crucial to the sucess of a product. I don't think
> that having good art is critical to the success of the Hero System
> product line. I've never heard of DP9 so I'm not in any position to
> comment on it but I have to say this: to judge a game system all you
> have to do is quickly browse through the book before buying. Any
> system that is less than solid can't hide behind art. Good art doesn't
> make for a good game and that's what most Champions players are after.
> I took one look at the Rifts rulebook and said to myself "this is
> garbage hiding behind art work"...
DP9=Dream Pod 9. the people who had created Heavy Gear. Heavy Gear is
selling like water in desert because the Computer game. Exactily as
Mechawarrior did.
> >
> > Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> > weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And sometimes it sounds
> > like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote
> > the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good
> > comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> > Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
> >
> Do you want another company telling Hero want products to publish?
> Marvel puts out enough crap as it is and don't think that publishing a
> Wolverine sourcebook is the way to go. Witness how poorly Marvel
> Superheroes has stood the test of time... The average comic book
> fanboy couldn't role-play their way out a wet paper bag. I don't want
> to deal with idiots who say "why can't I play Spawn? You're playing
> with too few points...".
It is price to be paid for. The people who wants play Superhero RPG want
play SUPER hero. So they will want emulate your prefered Superhero. F*
the game balance. They want play what they want... It is a error at
Champs. Game balance scares the new players...
> >
> > Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is
> > hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people
> > from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf
> > like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction
> > is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a
> > Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say all the time:
> > "Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless path to my
> > self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!"
>
> Can't knock you there...but it gets back to role-playing and the joys
> of creating original concepts and deviating from the established
> histories. The type of person who judges a game based on "how the
> artwork looks" is missing the point. The game exists in your mind, not
> in the real world and no amount of artwork can recreate the adventures
> that are locked inside my brain...
Artworks help for visualization. The players need some visual
references. Newbie wants visual aid to get tuned to the game world.
and Champs is a generic game. If not why publish a Fantasy,Space, Wild
West or Cyberpunk genres?
> > I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> > the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> > grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character
> > ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new
> > pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
>
> How tough is the math in Champs? It's nothing you can't do with a
> calculator and some scratch paper...Heck, with all the character
> creation programs like HeroMaker and Creation Workshop around I've
> haven't done a character up by hand in years.
It scares a lot. If you don't use a PC (like me) you don't have acess to
Heromaker nor to Creation Workshop (HEY HERO PEOPLE LOOK TO THE MACS!
COME TO MAC SIDE OF THE FORCE!). So I had to work with my players sheet
using the old method. Paper and Pencil. All the math at Champs sounds
scaring to a beginer. The people wants fast math like White Wolf.
Simple points to get the powers they want. All that +/-1 (which means
split or multiply by 2) and velocity calculations are scaring. I must
make all the complex calculations myself and give it ready to the
player.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:56:47 -0800
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Critique Needed: Fiendish Plot
From: Jay P Hailey <jayphailey@juno.com>
>>Does this scheme seem to be workable? Any elaborations or
>>consequences that I have not forseen?
>>
>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert."
<snip>
>The water works engineer would be able to easily direct the PCs to the
>proper places, if they think to ask. But he'd also be liable to tell the
>Police the same thing. And of course the Police aren't going to be too
>happy to have their city threatened with mad rats. So you may want to
>provide them a handy distraction.
How's this? The police all "head for the hills" in order to stop the madman,
but the heroes have clues that indicate that the drug that makes the rats
insane is actually a gas that is lighter than air. So while the policemen
run to high ground, looking for the villain, the heroes head for the
_outlet_ of the system.
Filksinger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:10:54 EST
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Subject: UNTIL (was "Re: VIPER Revision")
In a message dated 98-12-14 17:19:52 EST, sbennie@dowco.com writes:
<< Steve Long was working on UNTIL some time ago; I suspect the work may be
subsumed into an UNTIL project for CNM, where the next VIPER revision is
almost
certain to occur. >>
Correct on all counts. I have, IIRC, about 50,000 words' worth of UNTIL
stuff that I wrote before that project was put on the back burner. It will
need revision to fit the C:NM setting, and of course the 5th Edition, but
it'll get out there soon enough, I hope. ;)
Steve Long
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:11:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Rick Jones <rick@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
> > I don't know how the DC/Wildstorm deal went, but I suppose Jim Lee could
> > still make a deal for a Champions:Wildstorm sourcebook, but gads, those
> > characters are expensive. (Well, some of them are. But a bunch of them
> > are darn expensive.)
>
> There are a lot of options. WEG quit the DC license. Wildstorm don't
> sound to much expansive after they was purchased by DC. And well... we
> always have the Rob Liefeld option... (NOT!!!)
Actually, the Alan Moore revamp of the "Awesome" universe was pretty good.
But again, you run up against the "points are for players" problem.
Supreme and Suprema are the pre-Crisis Superman and Supergirl, down to the
super-intelligent pets and the amazingly cool fortress.
You could model some of the Awesome characters, but you eventually run
into the same problem you do modeling the big guns of any comic book
universe. ("Lesse, Superman's built on 2500 points, and I have... 250.
Dude, that sucks.")
BTW, don't let it be said that I have *problem* with that. I love
Champions. But if you're gonna try to make it the "offical" system of
some comics company, you need to make sure it's a group of heroes that are
easy to model in Champions.
- --
Rick Jones That's the kind of wooly-headed liberal thinking that
rick@blkbox.com leads to being eaten.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Principal Snyder,Buffy The Vampire Slayer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:14:37 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible OR being the Champs pusher
Brian Wawrow wrote:
>
> Okay, I have some opinions to drop in here. *
>
> ] Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> ] weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And
> ] sometimes it sounds
> ] like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk
> ] to promote
> ] the selling. I think Champs system could be official system
> ] for any good
> ] comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> ] Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
>
> *I think this is a great idea. To get Champs associated with a trendy comic
> would probably do wonders. Something like a city book set in Image's New
> York City with Spawn and whomever else lives there would draw a lot of
> interest. Who wouldn't want Spawn as a contact? If Todd is ready to put his
> name on Kiss dolls, he's ready to put it on a gaming supplement.
I agree with you. Champs need some franchise to improve the sellings.
> ] > I personally don't have a problem with the way the current art work
> ] > looks. I don't think I've ever bought a role-playing supplement
> ] > because I like the art...
> ]
> ] The art work is terrible. They could call some new talents to do the
> ] internal arts, and some big hit to do the cover. Adam Hughes
> ] is perfect
> ] but he is very expansive, but Art Adams isn't, and he is a master Fan
> ] Boy...
> *Champions has a longstanding tradition of mediocre artwork. I for one,
> don't base my gaming choices on artwork but if you're looking for a cool new
> game to try, artwork can really grab your attention. White Wolf is a perfect
> example of this. Crappy game mechanics shrouded in loads of style and
> flavour. I think lots of people bought those early books because they just
> looked so sexy.
I purchzased my Vampire 2nd by the look and feel. It helped me to do a
purchase decision. I think tehey did some good arts which helped a lot
the sellings. (and a nice world too)
> <large snip>
>
> ] Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is
> ] hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people
> ] from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf
> ] like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction
> ] is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a
> ] Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say
> ] all the time:
> ] "Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless
> ] path to my
> ] self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!"
>
> *Right, well, there's a happy medium here. The ability to deal with
> abstraction is a matter of philosophy and has very little to do with gaming
> experience. A new player will need very specific examples as a starting
> point. Abstract game concepts are just chinwagging until you understand how
> to apply the math to them. I think you can make that first game easy to
> start without sucking the flexibility out of the system by providing lots of
> clear examples and sample characters.
>
> ] > It has been my experience that new gamers to Champions go through a
> ] > three step process:
> ] >
> ] > (1) Discovery
> ] >
> ] > They are introduced to the game by a somewhat experienced friend and
> ] > have a character made up for them. As their first few sessions
> ] > progress they learn the rules in start asking questions
> ] that you might
> ] > never had heard before or took for granted.
> ]
> ] To introduce a new player you must generate a good
> ] entertaiment to your
> ] player. So they will be excited and wiill comment with the
> ] players. Once
> ] the other possible players have knowledge of the game and how
> ] fun is it
> ] someone will ask to join or it will be more easy to call
> ] him/her to play.
> *That's what's so addictive about this system. Once players understand how
> the system works, they will talk for hours about what they're going to do
> with their next 10 points, provided the game is interesting.
But Champs math stop some players. I have 10 points but... What I'll do
with it? Let me check my Cray to do calculations to remove that
limitation... (I listen it from a player which had 2 limitations at his
teleport powers)
> ] > (2) Creativity
> ] >
> ] > Having figured out the rules, they get themselves a copy of
> ] the BBB and
> ] > start making character willy-nilly, trying all sorts of
> ] different power
> ] > combinations as they strive to make a character that they
> ] feel totally
> ] > comfortable with. It's about this time that they are introduced to
> ] > munchkinism in the quest to wring maximum efficiency out of their
> ] > characters.
> ]
> ] I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> ] the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> ] grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change
> ] character
> ] ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two
> ] about the new
> ] pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
>
> *I always encourage this and I recommend handing out experience for extra
> stuff. In my FH game, the palladin sings war ballads to recover his Life
> magic END battery. So he wrote one out, with probably 8 or 9 stanzas and
> then did a reading at the game with teutonic sounding background music and
> actions like a kata. At first everyone sort of giggled but by the end
> everyone was fascinated by the ballad and applauded. Poof! Free point. It
> really tends to get people wrapped up in the game.
Kewl! I will ask to my players begin do this things in the game...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:23:03 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: I can't believe I'm asking about this...
At 05:44 PM 12/14/1998 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Are there FUZION rules in *.TXT, *.HTML, or some other format on-line or
>otherwise available?
Try these:
Fuzion - All the text you can eat 5.0
http://www.sabram.com/rtalsoriangames/site/fuzion/mainfuzion/FuzionText.html
Fuzion Errata 1.1
http://www.best.com/~rtg1/cnmerrat.html
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:53:34 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br>
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
Rick Jones wrote:
>
> Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
> > Chris Hartjes wrote:
> > > On 14 Dec, Steven J. Owens wrote:
>
> > What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the
> > promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa
> > have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire
> > 3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot
> > of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the
> > shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice
>
> OTOH, I understand that the readers of Inquest picked Champions as the #1
> RPG.
Readers not. Critics. Ask for the Heros people about the last years
selling? They don't will give some good news. (a lot of time without a
new book is a reflex of the money condition)
> > Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> > weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And sometimes it sounds
> > like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote
> > the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good
> > comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> > Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
>
> I don't know how the DC/Wildstorm deal went, but I suppose Jim Lee could
> still make a deal for a Champions:Wildstorm sourcebook, but gads, those
> characters are expensive. (Well, some of them are. But a bunch of them
> are darn expensive.)
There are a lot of options. WEG quit the DC license. Wildstorm don't
sound to much expansive after they was purchased by DC. And well... we
always have the Rob Liefeld option... (NOT!!!)
> > I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> > the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> > grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character
> > ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new
> > pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
> The big problem with Champions is that it's not a game that folks can
> generally pick up at a game store and come home to play the next night.
> Most folks (at least locally) came into Champions by joining an existing
> group (or joining a group of folks who have played Champions in the past
> and are starting up again). My group played Villains and Vigilantes in
> high school, in spite of the clunky system, because it was so much easier
> to pick up than Champions. These days, when someone joins our Champions
> game, one of the experienced players will take the player aside, get an
> idea of what they want out of their character and make the character for
> them. Eventually, they get the hang of it, but it's pretty hard to make a
> good first character.
Let me tell a interesting story about new gamers, poor selling
promotions and lack of advertising at expecialized magazines.
Once time ago in a distant land called Brazil, a die hard player which
I'll hide his name calling him Avatar was tired to play DC Heroes,
Marvel Super Heroes ,GURPS,AD&D and WoD... So he begun search for some
nice games. His first option was Rifts. Tons of books, easy to play but
without game balance to keep him and some loyal players playing for more
than a month. After this he got his old DC heroes and visited a
newsgroup talking about Superheroes RPG... There he had listen about
another system called Champions/Hero. He was intrigued how many people
could talk about a so unknow system... He got some opinions positive
opinions. There he visited Theala's Home Page and discovered the amazing
world of Champions System...
Excited he went to his local store to puirchase the game... and what
hapened? He didn't met the game there because the people who make the
distribuition said this system was unknow at the country. After this
answer he went to the main games distribuitor at his country and found
tons of WoD,Gurps and AD&D books, but no signal of Champions... Well
what he coud do? Forget the game? Maybe... He did his last chance
purchasing... Internet. He tried found the company Homepage and he
didn't found... Amazon Books... Ha! Nothing about this game there... So,
he had forgot the game. At that distant year he went to US of A at his
vacations. There he found a shop called Complete Strategist. He found
the game and purchased without doubt.
Now starts the second part of the story. :~| (I can't hold my tears...
someone call Oprah or Rikki Lake to take some good closes)
Avatar was happy with his copy of champs... he even read it at the
flight from NYC to Rio de janeiro (the city where he lives). Once in Rio
he tried found players to this system. The logical option was the game
shops... The answer was NO! From the other possible players. Nobody had
knowledge about the game. Nobody wants play it yada yada yada... His
answer was Internet... he begun play Champs PBEMs. After 1 year trying
get ftf players he found a small and brave group to play his beloved
champs! What hapened? When he was explaning the game math and doing the
characters one of the players shooted this amazing quote: "To do a
Champs sheet is as complesx than do a Role Master sheet. To much math, I
hope I don't will do as much math at the game session"... Avatar sad by
this declaration (he knows Role Master was the most complex game over
the world). Some other playes said similar things after this quote. The
1st session ran ok. The second ran at the average. The third one was
going ok... but all players said Champs was to much weird to them. No
initiative rolls, strange damage roll system, lack of interesting
disadvantages and the basic world which came with the main book was
weak. After this bombastic revelations he made a decision! Basic Champs
universe? Never MORE! It helped to keep some players away... And he did
his own world. Avatar did a nice game world (dark enought to entice some
White Wolf players) and it was kept sucessfull for a lot of sessions...
Now Avatar is trying to bring more Champs copies to his country... but
it look night impossible because the local game shops don't have any
chance to ask new Champs... Motiff? No new products, no old killer
products, no new books, nor new relaunching. Posters for the game
shops... Ha! No signal. Own a Magazine? What is it? Avatar had found an
old copy of a related magazine in NYC only. (and it was really ugly!).
Using his marketing knowledge (Avatar is an advertiser and works in a
small press company) he had knowledge about:no promotion, no sellings...
no sellings nobody will play the best rpg over the world!
> I suspect that, without "sponsors" into Champions, most folks are going to
> gravitate to other supers games. Presumably the new Marvel game, which
> does sound really easy to pick up.
I agree with you. The Marvel new system looks fast and attractive to
play.
Avatar
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:51:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER
At 11:46 AM 12/14/98 -0500, Geoff Depew wrote:
><I forwarded this to my Champions GM -who recently subscribed to the list -
>and this is the response he sent back.>
>
>>Well, this is a lengthy question. I have done several things with VIPER
>>in my game that many of you may find repulsive. I have, thanks to the
>>wonders of genetic manipulation, eliminated the focus limitation for
>>those flying VIPER agents. (That would be...Flight Endorphin Viper
>>Agents)
Ewwww. Even *I'm* not dippy enough to use that. ;-]
>>I had Pulsar rejoin VIPER. He's been much more successful since then.
>>He's not even unlucky anymore. And now he has an energy blast for
>>everyone. Old Villains should get old, and tougher.
This is part of what I was getting at with the Experience remark I made.
And I do rather like this turn for the character. Pulsar could even
have a KS: Crusher Gang, and become a consultant for VIPER Hunting his old
friends. (And, of course, he'd be Hunted by the Crusher Gang on 14-!)
>>VIPER Force One: I have YET to see a group that does not scream, bitch,
>>and moan when I take these guys out of the box. I LOVE them, but my
>>players hate them. Keep them anyway, but please, please, do something
>>about Mirror Man? That character is ridiculous. His getaway method is to
>>never send the primary duplicate into combat and to have Chasm carry a
>>Change Environment Darkness Grenade. Let's be serious, people. This is
>>twinky.
I'll go along with this.
>>VIPER Force Two: Well, within a week, this group is going to cease to
>>be, because more than likely, Armstrong will be the new Golden Avenger,
>>and the Current Golden Avenger, AKA Adolf Hitler, will be either in
>>Stronghold or dead. To request details of the "Golden Ages" plotline,
>>conceived in the first feverish days of my champions campaign eleven
>>years ago and finally coming to fruition now, mail me separately at
>>msatran1@hotmail.com. I think it's an interesting variation, if not a
>>publishable adventure. (Unlike the previous foray into Naziism by Hero
>>Games, this one clearly features Hitler as a Villain, and therefore is
>>more politically safe) However, I like them...keep them.
I had to read this twice to figure out that you were talking about
Lyndon Kaufman and not DJ Johnson as "the Current Golden Avenger." Because
of this personnel change (Kaufman was killed by Eurostar a couple of years
ago, while Johnson appears in Shelley Mactyre's new PRIMUS book), this
plotline would be largely impractical in a published adventure.
>>Most of the book is really quite good, but I noticed some things
>>missing.
>>1) VIPER Assault Helicopters. These are a must. You cannot fight heroes
>>in urban environments without VTOLS and the maneuverability they
>>provide.
Yeah, the black helicopters in the book are stealth vehicles; some good
VTOL craft would be a great start (Scott, look up http://www.moller.com for
some really nifty ideas).
>>2) Why in the name of god do they need to compete with COIL? King Cobra
>>is a power mad looney, but he's still a looney. The "Battle over a Snake
>>Motif" is slightly silly.
There's more than a snake motif behind the war. COIL is responsible for
the unpleasant origins of most of the Serpent Syndicate, and has done quite
a bit to make life miserable for VIPER and anyone connected with it.
>>3) RAVEN is hardly integral. Just eliminate them.
Already done. See An Eye For An Eye.
>>4) Give the PC's a smart, canny Supreme Serpent who is human rather than
>>this bizarre alien computer concept. The concept of VIPER is trained
>>agents with supervillain support. Give him military skills, training,
>>and a nasty gun, with a gadget pool. Have there be political maneuvering
>>between his top dogs to get the position when he dies.
This could be a plot in itself, where the current (alien computer)
Supreme Serpent is somehow removed from power and replaced with the type of
person you describe.
An important note for *all* writers of supplement updates: please, avoid
retroactive continuity as much as possible! Some people do use materials
close to the way they're written, and don't want to have to do a lot of
reconciliation when buying a new product. That reconciliation would
generally involve either devising a story to explain why things changed
(something that should be done in the supplement itself), or ignoring the
new material (which makes the work put into the change a waste of time).
>>5) VIPER Power Armor. If this happens to any significant degree, it is
>>over for heroes everywhere. Why have supers at all? Just mass produce
>>your power armor and go for it. You can have almost any effect except
>>magic.
It depends. PRIMUS also has power-armored agents, but these are both
less numerous than the rank-and-file agents and less powerful than
full-fledged supers like the Golden and Silver Avengers.
>>6) More robots, some tougher, some weaker.
Good idea.
>>7) More tanks. The lack of a standard medium sized hovertank is a
>>significant weakness.
Ditto.
>>8) VIPER doesn't need any more weapons.
Well, maybe a *few* more. Take a look at VIPER's regular enemies when
devising them, though. I'd favor a sonic RKA rifle for dealing with the
Crusher Gang, and a cold-projector or two (RKA and EB) for use against
COIL. Throw in something along the lines of a traditional flame-thrower,
and I think the collection would be close to complete.
>>9) Viper needs more independant villains who aren't goofy and silly. A
>>lot of the ones in the book are either too tough, too weak, or too silly
>>to use. Old Classics like Bluejay, Cheshire Cat, and others should also
>>be redone.
I'm mostly in agreement here. I think I have a narrower definition of
"silly" than the writer here, but some "grim" villains for Dark Champions
GMs would certainly be helpful. Full write-ups of the Sinister Samurai, M.
Puissant, and other Nest Leaders who are both hands-on and super-powered
would be a good idea (though I'm planning on writing out the Samurai for
Cascade Champions).
>>10) Worst problem with VIPER. VIPER has too many skills now. You can
>>take three agents and kill a hero in his secret ID with the new way some
>>of these agents are set up. VIPER is supposed to be a dangerous
>>opponent. Not an unbeatable one.
Maybe a page on "why VIPER fails" would be in order. Certainly there's
a bit of backstabbing and heavy rivalry going on even in the existing work,
but some specifics would be nice to help get things planned out --
especially how VIPER does these insidious things without leaving the player
hunched over his next character sheet.
>>11) Get rid of the find weakness on VIPER agents. That's ridiculous.
>>It's unbalancing on heroes. Think about what happens if every VIPER
>>agent has it. "How do I get Find Weakness with my gun? I was trained by
>>VIPER, they've all got it, by god."
I think they got it because their original version had it.
At the same time, it should be noted that their Find Weakness is with
one VIPER weapon. One. That's it. If the agent trained with a VR-21
"Thunder" short-range blaster rifle and then switches to a UW-1 "Torpedo"
Carbine, then that agent doesn't get to use his Find Weakness any more.
(This is something that was missed in the "Diary of a VIPER Agent" in the
existing work.)
Another point that needs to be covered is what agents do with their Find
Weakness if their weapons do Entangles or other inappropriate damage (like,
can Find Weakness be used with AoE/Explosion attacks, logically speaking)?
>>12) More Planes. VIPER could use some more planes. With missiles, this
>>time. Missiles are a great way to stop the heroes from attacking agents.
>>Just shoot a random building and watch the fun.
Works for me. :-]
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:06:58 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@ruralrj.com.br>
Subject: [Fwd: Making Champions Accessible]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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n 14 Dec, Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
>
>
> What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the
> promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa
> have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire
> 3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot
> of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the
> shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice
> productwith a good art and a solid system. Good art sell a lot of books.
> Look to DP9 products. Average game system, good world amazing interior
> art...
I have to agree with you that the noise made by players and the
promotion team is crucial to the sucess of a product. I don't think
that having good art is critical to the success of the Hero System
product line. I've never heard of DP9 so I'm not in any position to
comment on it but I have to say this: to judge a game system all you
have to do is quickly browse through the book before buying. Any
system that is less than solid can't hide behind art. Good art doesn't
make for a good game and that's what most Champions players are after.
I took one look at the Rifts rulebook and said to myself "this is
garbage hiding behind art work"...
>
> Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And sometimes it sounds
> like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote
> the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good
> comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
>
Do you want another company telling Hero want products to publish?
Marvel puts out enough crap as it is and don't think that publishing a
Wolverine sourcebook is the way to go. Witness how poorly Marvel
Superheroes has stood the test of time... The average comic book
fanboy couldn't role-play their way out a wet paper bag. I don't want
to deal with idiots who say "why can't I play Spawn? You're playing
with too few points...".
>
> Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is
> hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people
> from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf
> like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction
> is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a
> Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say all the time:
> "Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless path to my
> self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!"
Can't knock you there...but it gets back to role-playing and the joys
of creating original concepts and deviating from the established
histories. The type of person who judges a game based on "how the
artwork looks" is missing the point. The game exists in your mind, not
in the real world and no amount of artwork can recreate the adventures
that are locked inside my brain...
>
> To introduce a new player you must generate a good entertaiment to your
> player. So they will be excited and wiill comment with the players. Once
> the other possible players have knowledge of the game and how fun is it
> someone will ask to join or it will be more easy to call him/her to play.
Exactly. The most enjoyable thing for me is getting newbies involved
in the campaign. They often generate some of the best ideas for
characters and campaign details.
>
> I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character
> ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new
> pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
How tough is the math in Champs? It's nothing you can't do with a
calculator and some scratch paper...Heck, with all the character
creation programs like HeroMaker and Creation Workshop around I've
haven't done a character up by hand in years.
- --
Chris Hartjes
Entertainment Resources Group
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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:05:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Hartjes <chris@ergmusic.com>
Reply-To: chris@ergmusic.com
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible
To: avatar@ruralrj.com.br
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On 14 Dec, Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote:
>
>
> What make a game sell a lot? The noise made by the players and the
> promotion team. Some sucessfull game companies like White Wolf and Fasa
> have noise fans... how many comentaries did you had listen about Vampire
> 3rd edition or Shadowrun 5th? Well, it is the noise which attract a lot
> of players. We must make noise and more noise when Champs 5th go to the
> shops, but... Champions people must encourage us to do it with a nice
> productwith a good art and a solid system. Good art sell a lot of books.
> Look to DP9 products. Average game system, good world amazing interior
> art...
I have to agree with you that the noise made by players and the
promotion team is crucial to the sucess of a product. I don't think
that having good art is critical to the success of the Hero System
product line. I've never heard of DP9 so I'm not in any position to
comment on it but I have to say this: to judge a game system all you
have to do is quickly browse through the book before buying. Any
system that is less than solid can't hide behind art. Good art doesn't
make for a good game and that's what most Champions players are after.
I took one look at the Rifts rulebook and said to myself "this is
garbage hiding behind art work"...
>
> Associated famous products sell. The Champions standart universe is
> weak, unknow for any super hero comic book fan. And sometimes it sounds
> like Marvel at 1970's. but without Spiderman or Amazing Hulk to promote
> the selling. I think Champs system could be official system for any good
> comic book company like Wildstorm or even Dark Horse... (We made
> Godzilla,Predator and Ghost sheets... who could make the Groo sheet?)
>
Do you want another company telling Hero want products to publish?
Marvel puts out enough crap as it is and don't think that publishing a
Wolverine sourcebook is the way to go. Witness how poorly Marvel
Superheroes has stood the test of time... The average comic book
fanboy couldn't role-play their way out a wet paper bag. I don't want
to deal with idiots who say "why can't I play Spawn? You're playing
with too few points...".
>
> Abstraction is side effect of ambient around the game universe. It is
> hard get to much abstraction in a Super Hero universe. If the people
> from Champs was aiming abstraction they could try make some White Wolf
> like products. Exactily as Steve jackson Game did. I think abstraction
> is related to Players "actitude". You can extract abstraction from a
> Spawn like game if both GM and players had patience to say all the time:
> "Oh pain! How my life is miserable! How my life is senseless path to my
> self destruction! Oh Pain! Oh Hell!!!"
Can't knock you there...but it gets back to role-playing and the joys
of creating original concepts and deviating from the established
histories. The type of person who judges a game based on "how the
artwork looks" is missing the point. The game exists in your mind, not
in the real world and no amount of artwork can recreate the adventures
that are locked inside my brain...
>
> To introduce a new player you must generate a good entertaiment to your
> player. So they will be excited and wiill comment with the players. Once
> the other possible players have knowledge of the game and how fun is it
> someone will ask to join or it will be more easy to call him/her to play.
Exactly. The most enjoyable thing for me is getting newbies involved
in the campaign. They often generate some of the best ideas for
characters and campaign details.
>
> I suggest less math (it scares a lot new players) and more ideas about
> the game universe and/or character concepts. Stimulus are essential to
> grab the new player. Let his mind flow. Ask him/her to change character
> ideas with the other players or write a paragrapher or two about the new
> pc. If s/he draws don't be afraid to ask some arts.
How tough is the math in Champs? It's nothing you can't do with a
calculator and some scratch paper...Heck, with all the character
creation programs like HeroMaker and Creation Workshop around I've
haven't done a character up by hand in years.
- --
Chris Hartjes
Entertainment Resources Group
- --------------22537B7208D67AE95B9F38ED--
------------------------------
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