From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 8:33 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #94 
 
 
champ-l-digest        Monday, December 14 1998        Volume 01 : Number 094 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    Re: Making Champions Accessible 
    Re: Fireman Skills 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
    Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
    Re: Making Champions Accessible 
    Re: CAPTURING SOMEONE 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:44:55 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible 
 
At 03:12 AM 12/14/1998 -0800, Steven J. Owens wrote: 
> 
>Marketing 
> 
>     Advertising, pushing distributors and game shops to give the 
>material premium space, arranging alliances with comic book companies 
>to suck in the "mainstream" (so to speak) comic book crowd, arranging 
>appearnces at comic book conventions and gaming conventions, etc.  A 
>lot of this, of course, involves money.  Still, it's a fact that these 
>could produce a significant influx of new blood.  Easier said than 
>done, of course, but I figured I'd better mention it to get it out of 
>the way.  Most of this is outside our hands - and probably even 
>outside of GoldRush Game's hands, unless they can cut some kind of 
>business deal with one of the larger comic companies. 
 
I don't think becoming associated with one of the larger comic companies is 
likely to be practical.  DC or Marvel, for example, would have to be 
convinced that creating a series of titles under a Hero System imprint 
would be worth their time and investment.    You can't expect them to 
commit creative personnel and an advertising budget to develop comic titles 
for characters they don't own just because it would boost sales for the 
game companies.  If game sales *need* boosting, the comic giants are likely 
to feel this bodes ill for sales of comics based on those games and 
characters.  How do you convince them otherwise? 
 
Personally, I'd rather see Hero Games or GRG produce an independent comic, 
or even a series of paperback novels.  But that's even less practical. 
 
> 
>Production Values 
> 
>     This goes hand in hand with marketing, and it ranges from having 
>really good production values (printing quality, layout, cover 
>quality) to managing the "image" of the product - slick as well as 
>good cover art and interior art.  Upgrading the "image" of the product 
>and bringing making the game more in line with the current genre of 
>popular comics and gaming. Let's be honest, take most of the champions 
>material and put it on the shelf alongside comics from the last couple 
>of years; it doesn't look like it belongs there.  It should. 
 
For my money, it's the comics from the last couple of years that don't 
belong there.  The Champions material (mainly four-color) reflects classic 
- -- but not outdated -- comic book styles and attitudes.  Comics, like other 
entertainment media, are subject to trends and fads; supplements and genre 
books can be created to reflect those trends that are around long enough to 
both with.  Dark Champions is one such product line, representing the 
"dark, gritty" storytelling style.  GRG's new San Angelo line is another, 
representing (like Kurt Busiek's Astro City) the treatment of a comic book 
city and surroundings as a cohesive and well-realized whole, not just a 
flat backdrop for superhero/supervillain battles. 
 
In short: you can create new products to reflect deserving trends without 
revamping the core product line.  Continuity is a good thing.   
 
> 
>Lowering Barriers to Entry 
> 
>     Abstract thinking refers to the simple fact that the game as it 
>exists now requries a lot of abstract thinking to design a character 
>and powers.  Math is fairly obvious.  These two typically go hand in 
>hand, to some extent.  Ground work refers to the simple fact that you 
>can't just pick up the champions game and run a scenario.  The 
>existing champions material and supplements are not ready to run "out 
>of the box".   
 
I think Hero System games are about as ready to run out of the box as any 
*if* you run pregenerated characters.  I play AD&D, Call of Cthulhu, Harn 
and have played some others, and for most campaigns in every one of those 
systems, the group spent one -- more often two -- entire game session at 
the beginning of a new campaign putting characters together.  Maybe you 
*can* play some of these other games as soon as the shrink wrap is 
off...but I don't know anyone who does. 
 
> 
>Abstraction 
> 
>     Part of the challenge of getting into champions is the champions 
>focus on abstract thinking.  This is the quality that endears the hero 
>system to me, because it gives it such flexibility and range. But it's 
>difficult for most people to think abstractly.   
 
Is this a failing of the game, or of those people?  The ability to think in 
the abstract is a good and useful thing.  If Hero games encourage this 
ability, why change it to cater to the gaming community's lowest common 
denominator?  I don't think players should take an elitist attitude, but, 
you know, if you can't handle Hero, there *are* other games.  No reason to 
strip away one of the things that sets this one apart from the others.   
 
>     The problem is how to alleviate the problem without sacrificing 
>what makes the system unque and powerful, and interesting.  
 
Yes, agreed. 
 
>     I'm not personally familiar with the Fuzion rules, but the 
>conclusions I've drawn from skimming the book and talking to many 
>players (and listening on this mailing list) is that they were a 
>serious attempt to overhaul the rules and make the game more 
>accessible - perhaps too serious, in that they alienated many of the 
>existing player base.  This is bad for the obvious reason that the 
>existing customer base is what will keep the game going and will help 
>new players get into the game.  The trick is to keep the existing 
>customer base, the existing players, and to keep the existing game 
>going.  Otherwise you might as well just start a whole new game and 
>start from scratch. 
 
I can't speak from experience on the Fuzion rules, myself, except to note 
that I took a good look at C:NM in the store -- several looks, actually -- 
and then dismissed out of hand the possibility that I would ever buy a 
Fuzion-based Hero product.  It doesn't matter to me, this late in the game, 
whether it's a better system or not.  It's just TOO different.  All my 
pre-Fuzion Hero products -- and there are a considerable number of them -- 
suddenly become useless unless I want to convert everything.  And I don't. 
Fuzion is, for all practical purposes, a separate game system and there's 
just too much work involved in making the switch, even if I might get a 
better product in the end. 
 
>Power Blocks 
> 
>     Introduce an intermediate level of abstraction - something 
>between the full-blown character and power construction rules and 
>pre-generated characters.  Take the rules and design "power blocks", 
>typical writeups of typical superhero powers, priced at multiple 
>levels, so the average gamer can just select the power blocks that the 
>player wants and add them to the character sheet.  
 
Space and expense permitting, I'd be in favor of this, but it's hard to see 
how you could put much of this into the core rule book...it's already about 
as big as it can realistically get.  There may be a simple solution, 
though:  in the tradition of GADGETS!, the Spell Bool and the Bestiary -- 
all of which offer pre-built, off the shelf components ready to be dropped 
into a game -- put together a Powers book with some of the more common (and 
a few of the more complex and unusual) sets of superhero powers.  Want to 
be able to control the weather?  Fine, here are three different treatments 
for that, at different power levels, all packaged neatly in a power 
framework with a bottom-line price tag. 
  
>     For example, for the Hand Killing Attack, build six different 
>powers to represent, claws, knives, swords, monomolecular whips, 
>laser-axes, etc.  For each one, have a 40, 60 and 80 point version. 
>In the "powers" section list the effects and the cost.  In appendix B, 
>list the power designs (appendix A is the power construction rules). 
>Do the same for the other "typical" powers.  Under each power list 
>some typical special effects and maybe describe a few possible nuances 
>of each special effect. 
 
Yes, something like that.  Just do it in a separate book so the gurus don't 
have to pay for 96 pages of material they don't need, and beginners have a 
cheaper option than the BBB for a first purchase. 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:27:51 -0800 
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net> 
Subject: Re: Fireman Skills 
 
>Does he know about bombs? defusing them? The chemistry and 
>problems behind different kinds of fires? Hazardous waste? 
>Where did he learn fire-fighting? 
>      County/Volunteer, City Dept, Federal, Navy shipboard? 
> 
 
I think that defusing bombs falls under the jurisdiction under the police 
department Bomb Squad.  At least in bigger cities like Los Angeles and New 
York. 
 
 
 
Geek Code 
**************************************************************************** 
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V 
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y** 
**************************************************************************** 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:19:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
 
At 01:10 PM 12/14/98 -0600, Hudson, Robert wrote: 
>At 10:31 AM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> >Here's what I think should be worked on: 
>   
> >1.  Update all characters to 5th Edition.  (That much is actually 
>pretty obvious; I just didn't want to leave out the obvious.)  Arguably, 
>also utilize some of the rules from Ultimate books. 
> 
> I'd pass on the Ultimates books outside the UMA [maybe parts of the 
>USM] to be honest. All due respect to the efforts of the authors for them, 
>most of the material in the published ones isn't suited to mainstream 
>campaigns.  
 
   For the most part, I'd say that the altogether "new rules" from Ultimate 
books should be avoided, with concentration on the "here's how to build X" 
rules.  The main exception to the former would be the maneuvers and styles 
from TUMA. 
 
> >2.  Give the existing supervillain characters some Experience. 
> 
> Hard to argue here. But buy them some skills for God's sake! If I 
>see another 'Nobel Prize Geneticist' with one science skill at a 13- I'm 
>going to bloody scream. 
 
   Agreed here.  The main reason I'm suggesting Experience here, though, 
would be to represent the passage of time since we last saw these guys. 
 
> >3.  Add a couple of solo villains. 
> 
> Not sure we really need this - lots of them out there already. 
 
   True; again, though, the logic here is that VIPER's been active since 
the last book, and would have added a few operatives.  If nothing else, 
Bluejay and some of the folks from Enemies For Hire should be included. 
 
> >4.  Lose a couple of villains, particularly Citadel -- not because 
>he sucks or anything, but because storylines given to date have him leaving 
>VIPER.  (Well, he could always show up in an appendix.) 
> 
> I think there were a couple of others that could go too. The 
>cybernetic ones come to mind. 
 
   If you mean Cyborgs Inc., I'm planning on using them in strong 
connection with the Portland OR Nest in Cascade Champions.  :-] 
 
> >5.  Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected corporations (at 
>least a dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the 
>Corporations sourcebook. 
> 
> I have to disagree here - frankly, no one I have ever dealt with has 
>*ever* used those write-ups. Almost everyone considered it a grossly 
>unnecessary level of detail, and a wholly useless complication.  
 
   Count me as a major exception to this.  I find that the corporation 
writeups are extremely useful for both background and active gaming.  In 
fact, the early stages of my campaign use a lot of the scenario suggestions 
from the Corporations sourcebook. 
 
> >6.  Expand "How VIPER Hunts Your Character" to also include "How 
>VIPER Hunts Your Character's Enemies."  If the PCs are dealing with (for 
>example) the Crusher Gang, how could VIPER be involved? 
> 
> Interesting idea, but probably easily extrapolatible from given 
>information. 
 
   But not necessarily.  Given an expansion of several pages in the book, 
I'd consider it helpful to have one of those pages devoted to reversing the 
perspective.  Besides, there are tactics that VIPER can use against 
villains (such as anonymously feeding information on them to the 
authorities, including the PCs) that it might be reluctant to use against 
heroes. 
 
> >7.  Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest 
>info" on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States.  Talk to Champions 
>players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in their 
>area, and include that information.  For example, I know Shelley Mactyre has 
>done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on her website), 
>and I have some material for the latest Portland. 
> 
> Nope - got to come down *strong* against this one.  This is really 
>an absurd level of detail, and it's going to be ignored/thrown out by 
>everyone who disagrees with the author's viewpoints on the 'local' Nest. 
>Pass on this one. [But see comments at bottom] 
> 
>>  >8.  Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal 
>> with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions).  In fact, a new 
>> scenario could be centered around this.  The point, though, is that VIPER 
>> will be starting to devise weapons that are specifically designed to deal 
>> with specific individuals.  VIPER could even have special task forces to 
>> deal with certain enemies (the Champions, the Crusher Gang, the Silver 
>> Avengers, COIL, Prism, etc.), and the PCs could join that list if they 
>> become troublesome enough. 
>>  
> Urk. I think this is a bit much too - no one is going to spend a 
>billion dollars on a weapon system to knock out the Champions. Adapting an 
>existing system maybe, but the idea of a development program for this 
>purpose is just silly. Spend your money finding out Secret Id's [Solitaire 
>is easy to crack, as is Jaguar - Seeker doesn't even have one, and neither 
>does Quantum] and just put a bullet in their heads when they step out of the 
>shower one morning.  
 
   Well, it was just a plot/story seed idea, and not one that I'd recommend 
spending a lot of space on anyway. 
 
> >9.  I'm also wondering if the vehicles couldn't be nearly as 
>modular as the agents -- that is, let the Quetzalcoatl Mk III (for instance) 
>have a selection of three or four weapons that could be mounted on it. 
> 
> Heck - isn't this what your book is for Bob? 
 
   It's a start.  Scott can certainly use TUV for ideas. 
   But why make someone buy a whole bunch of books when one will suffice? 
 
> >10.  Include an entire section where each other Champions Universe 
>organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how VIPER 
>regards and deals with that organization.  (Each would be a quarter-page to 
>a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.) 
> 
> Nope - way too much work. 
 
   Well, that really depends on what Scott decides.  It can be a load of 
work, but it can be rewarding for author and GM alike.  I'll be doing 
something along these lines for VOICE, and getting PCs mixed up in their 
disagreements with Eurostar or Genocide, or in cooperative operations with 
Card Shark or VIPER, are among the possibilities I'll be exploring. 
 
> [I'm willing to talk intelligently on the subject, but irrational 
>flames will be summarily mocked. You have been warned!] 
> 
> Part of the problem I see with the material Bob is talking about 
>here is summed up in this one sentence:  
> Way too much detail! 
> 
> No offense Bob, but at the level of detail you're talking about 
>here, you might as well roll the dice behind my screen and run my game for 
>me too! 
 
   Hm.  Do I get to summarily mock this part of your post?  ;-] 
   Seriously, it's extremely hard to tell from the keyboard exactly what 
kind of thing a GM is going to need.  Some will needs lots of statistical 
write-ups for every character, gadget, vehicle, and item; others will need 
lots of story hooks and background material. 
 
> A well-thought out presentation is one thing, but the kind of detail 
>being discussed here is simply unnecessary. No one - and I mean *no one* - 
>uses the Champions Universe as written in the supplements in toto. Everyone 
>changes things, deletes groups they think are nothing more than packs of 
>Hostess Twinkies looking for a wrapper, and so on. Wasting both the writer's 
>time and the reader's money on a level of detail that no one is going to use 
>is senseless - and it won't sell. Hero can't afford to publish a VIPER book 
>the size of the BBB, and even if they could, the likelihood of their making 
>a profit on it is miniscule to be kind. 
 
   For one thing, I happen to be one GM who uses the Champions Universe as 
nearly exactly as written as possible.  I do change a few things, such as 
stuff that's contradictory (like a good deal of the background material in 
Enemies For Hire) or that strikes me as blatantly illogical (like many of 
the special abilities for Genocide Pawns). 
   If I don't like a particular character or whatever, I still keep that 
character around, but relegated to background material.  Yes, even the 
characters in European Enemies have a function in my campaign (though I 
have had the Huntsman of the Black Forest kill both Inquisition and Thespian). 
   No, HG couldn't expect a profit from a 400-page VIPER book (at least, 
not if it's done in paper).  We're talking 256 pages, an addition of about 
50 pages from the original.  Most of the stuff I was talking about Scott 
adding was fairly short detail (the corporations being the only large 
addition among my suggestions). 
 
> I feel like the same goes for the huge list of scenarios and plot 
>ideas that you're suggesting here too - frankly, elitist as it sounds - if 
>any GM can't create his own material , then he needs to hang up the hat and 
>pack it in. [Note: I do not mean the occasional emergency pick-up game, or 
>the real-life crisis shortened planning time game and the like, I'm talking 
>about people who have to depend on the published material to give them 
>*every* major plotline and scenario in their games.]  
 
   Fine, and after I cancel my campaign you can explain to my players why 
you think that the difficulty I have in coming up with plots makes me such 
a lousy GM that I don't deserve the position.  As with many other areas, 
Hero System GMs are rather sparse around these parts. 
   If we limit the possibilities to those who can come up with exciting, 
original stories all on their own, that situation isn't likely to change. 
It's similar to the problem with getting new Hero System players, as 
discussed in another thread; if we want more people to get involved, we 
need to service the newbies, and those who have problems in various areas. 
 
> I appears to me that what we need is simply good, solid material 
>that is thought provoking - not immense, senseless lists of agencies and 
>tie-ins to groups no one cares about, and equally immense lists of equipment 
>and scenario ideas that anyone with the will to do so can create on their 
>own. In this case, I really believe that the idea of "Less is more" strikes 
>home pretty squarely. 
 
   If "less is more," than none at all is the max. 
   Really, I do envy those who can come up with a fully fleshed-out 
superhero universe with all-original stories on their own, and make them 
work for a game that is not only viable but vibrant.  Enemies books and 
organization books are not for those GMs, as they can play just fine with 
nothing but the rulebook (and maybe a genre book and/or some Ultimate 
books).  I don't have a problem with such GMs at all, and would love to 
play under one some time. 
   The problem is, these individuals are few and far between. 
   I could certainly come up with a fully fleshed-out world on my own, but 
weaving the NPCs, organizations, and so forth into an ongoing campaign that 
lasts for years like many others have done is beyond my ability. 
   Okay, maybe I should pack it in and give up the game, but then there are 
some players who'd be doing without it in the meantime, not to mention that 
these individuals would be less likely to buy the Fifth Edition HSR when 
it's available, the various Ultimate books that apply to their characters, 
and so forth.  And sure, that's only three players, but if you multiply 
that by as many GMs as probably have a similar problem you'll find that 
limiting the number of scenario plotlines in published books is also 
limiting the growth of Hero. 
   The above level of detail is what you can expect for VOICE 2000.  I'm 
hoping to have at least a little something for everyone, so don't diss it 
until you see it. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:20:09 -0500 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
 
>Can the originator of this thread restate the desired effects 
>of the power again? I've read so much different stuff I've gotten 
>real fuzzy on what was desired again. 
 
Sure. 
 
The character wants a force field.  One she can use to protect someone in 
the same hex as she is, or she can move it to protect someone else at the 
expense of her own defense.  I can live with this, and know how to do it. 
 
In the future she wants to have second use for this power.  The target will 
be covered by an energy field that lets in all attacks but reduces the 
effect of outgoing ED/PD based attacks.  At the moment, I don't know if the 
target can simply walk out of the area, or if the effect would go right with 
him. 
 
By her logic a Force Field has two sides.  One side absorbs incoming damage, 
while the other is transparent to outgoing (your own) attacks.  In her case, 
the Force Field will have an Area of Effect.  She wants to be able to turn 
it inside out, such that when she puts it around someone, all incoming 
attacks act exactly as they would have otherwise.  Any attack (and were not 
talking drains and the like here) launched by the target would be reduced in 
effect by the same amount as the force field would normally protect. 
 
~ Mike 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:37:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Making Champions Accessible 
 
At 03:12 AM 12/14/98 -0800, Steven J. Owens wrote: 
>     Advertising, pushing distributors and game shops to give the 
>material premium space, arranging alliances with comic book companies 
>to suck in the "mainstream" (so to speak) comic book crowd, arranging 
>appearnces at comic book conventions and gaming conventions, etc.  A 
>lot of this, of course, involves money.  Still, it's a fact that these 
>could produce a significant influx of new blood.  Easier said than 
>done, of course, but I figured I'd better mention it to get it out of 
>the way.  Most of this is outside our hands - and probably even 
>outside of GoldRush Game's hands, unless they can cut some kind of 
>business deal with one of the larger comic companies. 
 
   Shortly after Hero5 was announced, there was some discussion of what 
could be done to let people know that Hero Games did not go out of 
business, that the HERO System is still alive and well, and that there are 
new products being made for it and more on the way. 
   The leading, most feasable idea was posters for game stores to display. 
I even suggested a couple, and there was a short thread of suggestions 
contrasting the original vs New Millenium versions of various characters 
such as Doctor Destroyer, Seeker, and Foxbat. 
   Display ads in comic books was deemed the next most likely, if I 
remember rightly, though the expense of this would limit it to a short 
campaign -- and forget about advertising in DC or Marvel.  That's clear out 
of the league for HG and GRG. 
   Other aspects of your discussion have merit, though rather limited 
merit.  The only practical way to have a comic-book partnership would be 
for someone to make a line of comics similar to the Fuzion-Powered comics 
that someone (DreamRiders Workshop, I think) is putting out. 
 
>     Actually, some of this may not be outside our hands; maybe we 
>could look at ways we can "grass roots" market the game system?  Are 
>people trying to make an effort to bring new players in?  Of course, 
>that also is easier said than done... :-). 
 
   Grassroots efforts are always good.  :-] 
 
>Production Values 
> 
>     This goes hand in hand with marketing, and it ranges from having 
>really good production values (printing quality, layout, cover 
>quality) to managing the "image" of the product - slick as well as 
>good cover art and interior art.  Upgrading the "image" of the product 
>and bringing making the game more in line with the current genre of 
>popular comics and gaming. Let's be honest, take most of the champions 
>material and put it on the shelf alongside comics from the last couple 
>of years; it doesn't look like it belongs there.  It should. 
 
   Of the various aspects of production value, the quality of artwork 
(other than cover art) is one that should be considered secondary.  It's 
not unimportant by any means, but I think that a poorly-written piece 
illustrated by the hottest name in comics today (I'm too far out of that 
loop to drop any names) would be outsold by something written by Steve Long 
and illustrated by me. 
   The number one consideration should be clear and consise writing, 
followed by legibility, and then durability of the physical product. 
Personally, I think that both HERO and GRG have come a long ways from their 
respective early days in all three of these areas (though I *still* am 
going by second-hand reports where SA:COH is concerned). 
 
>     In the first case, the random hero generation rules, I think they 
>really weren't a serious attempt to overhaul the game.  It wasn't a 
>main focus of the game and it didn't provide enough variety for broad 
>use.  You could get more milage out of building a set of thirty or 
>forty generic character types and packaging them with the combat & 
>campaign rules, with the character & power construction rules 
>available in an appendix (not to remove them from the system, but to 
>shift the focus for the first-time player/GM from the power 
>construction to playing the game). 
 
   Well, you're certainly right that the random superhero generator wasn't 
supposed to be a serious overhaul attempt; IIRC it even says right in the 
text that it's just a tool for quick-and-dirty character generation. 
   On the other hand, changing the format to the extent that you suggest 
here would be taking things just a tad too far. 
   That said, I do think that a book of sample beginning PCs of various 
superheroic types might well be a good thing.  One could get, say, 45 
characters into a 96-page book, with each taking up about one page for the 
description and a second for the character sheet (the rest of the pages 
taking up stuff like introduction, table of contents, etc.).  If it went 
over well, a similar book could be built for fantasy PCs. 
   Alternately, a "quick Champions" book could be made with about half that 
many sample PCs, and the basics of what the Powers and such mean along with 
the bare bones of the Hero combat rules.  And, similarly, a "quick Fantasy 
Hero," "quick Star Hero," etc. 
   Of course, even at that, one runs into the problem that many aspects of 
a character, Disadvantages in particular, will be highly campaign specific. 
 This, however, is a bridge that can probably be crossed upon arrival. 
 
>     Introduce an intermediate level of abstraction - something 
>between the full-blown character and power construction rules and 
>pre-generated characters.  Take the rules and design "power blocks", 
>typical writeups of typical superhero powers, priced at multiple 
>levels, so the average gamer can just select the power blocks that the 
>player wants and add them to the character sheet.   
 
   Actually, I do think that Dave Mattingly is planning on doing something 
similar to this in the Champions 5th Edition genre book. 
 
>     To extend this even further, provide a selection of character 
>templates; not just the five or six archetypes, but 12 to 18 different 
>variations, each one a framework of a character, ready to have a set 
>of powers (like take the tough guy framework and drop in the "super 
>strong" and "super tough" power blocks, plus the "general 
>invulnerability" power block (which has things like life support and 
>flash defense, etc)).  New players can grab a template, skim through 
>the list and select several power blocks, then work up a character 
>background and persona and they're ready to roll (and role). 
 
   Ditto. 
 
>     For example, make power levels roughly 40/60/80 points.  Call 
>them street-level, superheroic, and galactic.  Derive appropriate 
>active points, defenses and damage classes from those point ranges. 
>Now *require* that all Hero/Champions products adhere strictly to 
>these power levels; providing duplicate character sets for other power 
>levels is viable, but the key is that if the cover says "a supplement 
>for street-level champions", the contents have to be "ready to roll" 
>at that level. 
 
   I agree with the basic principle, though I'd prefer somewhat different 
specifics here. 
   For one, I prefer 40/60/80/100 point levels, calling them heroic (for 
super agents as well as street-level vigilantes), standard superheroic, 
high-powered superheroic, and cosmic. 
   Second, I agree with the power level guideline, but not so much as a 
strict, 100% rule.  It's much easier to deal with books that are geared 
toward mutliple styples and multiple power levels.  The latter is 
particularly useful, for when the PCs advance from one power level to the 
next.  So a really full supplement would have a bunch of thugs at the 40 
point level, some supers at the 60 point level, a few supers at the 80 
point level, and some "pull out all the stops" top-level baddies at the 
100-point level. 
 
>     The existing Champions supplements are fairly good in general. 
>Some better, some worse.  Where they are in general weakest is where 
>other game systems are strongest; because the system is so flexible, 
>the points are usually fairly vague.  There tends to be a lot more in 
>terms of background material than in character writeups, gadgets, 
>vehicles, bases, settings, etc.  Supplements that are not weak on 
>these terms are usually along the lines of the "gadgets" book, not 
>providing any connecting framework at all for the gadgets.  This is a 
>problem because this is where the system challenges new GMs the most. 
>To encourage new blood to play and GM, we need to make supplements 
>that make it easier for them to do so. 
 
   This rather depends on what the GM needs.  Yes, a good, strong set of 
game statistic write-ups for characters, vehicles, and such is very 
important; it's one of the few areas where Kingdom of Champions is weak. 
However, it's just as important to provide hooks for stories, and this is 
where those strong background descriptions come in. 
 
>     None of these can be fundamentally changed without seriously 
>affecting how the game feels and works, but perhaps we can introduce 
>new approaches to them that ease people into the game, or introduce 
>"jump start rules" (to borrow a leaf from SJG's Car Wars) to get 
>new players into the game quickly 
 
   I think that this is a good idea.  It's probably too late to call for a 
rewrite in the Hero5 book, but arranging the Combat rules so that you can 
just stop reading at some particular spot and have all the basics, and then 
have all the "fundamental extras" in succeeding sections, would be a good 
thing. 
   Like you, I can't think of what, out of the main combat rules, should be 
considered "fundamental extras" -- at least, what isn't already listed in a 
separate section (like Knockback or Long Term END). 
 
>     For the tactical options and modifiers, I can't think of any that 
>really can be done without.  I can think of a few different game aids 
>that might make life easier; for example, combat maneuver cards.  I've 
>suggested these before, though I've never really had a crop of new 
>players to try them out on.  The idea is to take the combat maneuvers 
>from the book and build a set of cards, one card for each maneuver. 
>Make enough for each player to have their own set.  The player selects 
>a maneuver and lays it down on the table.  The card lists the effects 
>and has nice, big numbers for cumulative modifiers. The GM can just 
>glance at the cards and quickly sum up what the player's current 
>modifiers are.   
 
   I think that this would be a good general idea as a commercial product. 
Just design one card that could be filled out for a single combat option 
for a single character, and sell them in packs of 50 or so (maybe with an 
extra card for instructions, and one or two that list basic combat 
maneuvers and modifiers, and perhaps all the Martial Arts maneuvers from 
TUMA). 
 
>     As one example, not that I think this is a problem now, but it 
>might become one: We have to recognize that we're going to see new 
>players and that they're not going to be up to the "standards" we 
>currently have - particularly if some of the suggestions below ever 
>come to pass.  We have to embrace the new players anyway, whether 
>they're people who just want to pull out a character sheet and play, 
>overdramatic Vampire and Goth players, or eight-year-old comic book 
>fans who want to play their favorite heroes.   
> 
>     We have to do this in recognition of the fact that they will 
>improve the future of gaming in this genre and this game system - even 
>if the system doesn't look so much, at first glance, like the system 
>we know and love. 
 
   I definitely gotta go along with you here.  Many of those coming into 
the system will not have the same tastes in style and genre that we have. 
It's been this way for a long time; the Vampire/Gothic overdramatizers you 
mention above are not that much unlike the AX&X diehards who want to hack 
and slash through everything in sight. 
   But a lot of those same folks will come into the game with ideas that 
will make the system better for all of us. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:59:30 -0800 
From: Jim Dickinson <jdickins@oregonsbest.com> 
Subject: Re: CAPTURING SOMEONE 
 
If you know the character real well, and can identify a situation that he 
might have fallen prey to, then one twist I have used successfully is to 
have the session begin AFTER his abduction, but before the Nazi's get what 
they want.  Maybe he was drugged, gassed, hypnotized, whatever.  But the 
PC's memory is hazy at best, and maybe what he remembers isn't exactly true... 
 
...I used this to get a PC into a bind, but also to start him in a place 
where I knew he would discover something I wanted him to know about the 
master plot.  Anyway, it was really a lot of fun playing with his memories, 
false and true, and letting him piece things back together on his own. 
 
This has also been used in movies and TV where people were drugged and then 
made to think they killed someone, or that the person who drugged them was 
a victim, too, etc. 
 
Maybe that helps you out?  ;-) 
 
At 12:31 PM 12/4/98 -0600, you wrote: 
>Here's another puzzler: I need to be able to capture a player character 
>without hurting him.  He's too strong just to be jumped by goons, and he's 
>a savvy-enough hunter that he could probably see any snares I set for him.  
>Any neat tricks or favorite tactics come to mind? The campaign is a pulp 
>type adventure, set in 1936.  The villains are Nazis. 
> 
>Thanks, 
> 
>Guy 
> 
> 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert." 
>--Charles Fort 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:18:08 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
 
At 01:10 PM 12/14/1998 -0600, Hudson, Robert wrote: 
> 
> 
>	>5.  Write up Duchess and other VIPER-connected corporations (at 
>least a dozen total, I'd say) in a format similar to that in the 
>Corporations sourcebook. 
> 
>	I have to disagree here - frankly, no one I have ever dealt with has 
>*ever* used those write-ups. Almost everyone considered it a grossly 
>unnecessary level of detail, and a wholly useless complication.  
 
One man's "unnecessary" is another man's "indispensible".  Something you 
don't have any use for in your game may be the keystone of an adventure arc 
in my campaign.  If it's not in the book, I have to do extra work to create 
it; I'd rather it be in the book. 
 
>	>7.  Expand the "Sample Nest Leaders" section to cover "the latest 
>info" on "all" of the VIPER's Nests in the United States.  Talk to Champions 
>players from around the country to see what they've done with nests in their 
>area, and include that information.  For example, I know Shelley Mactyre has 
>done some very interesting stuff with the Reno nest (it's on her website), 
>and I have some material for the latest Portland. 
> 
>	Nope - got to come down *strong* against this one.  This is really 
>an absurd level of detail, and it's going to be ignored/thrown out by 
>everyone who disagrees with the author's viewpoints on the 'local' Nest. 
>Pass on this one. [But see comments at bottom] 
 
I think this would be excellent, space permitting.  We get the benefit of 
several different author/GM's creativity, several different takes on the 
same idea, in one product.  As always, choose what you want, ignore or 
modify the rest.  That is inevitable in a Hero product -- even the core 
rulebook -- and should not be used as an argument (at least, not as the 
sole argument) for excluding something. 
 
> 
>>  >8.  Present a handful of weapons that are specifically designed to deal 
>> with specific VIPER enemies (such as the Champions).   
>>  
>	Urk. I think this is a bit much too - no one is going to spend a 
>billion dollars on a weapon system to knock out the Champions. Adapting an 
>existing system maybe, but the idea of a development program for this 
>purpose is just silly. Spend your money finding out Secret Id's [Solitaire 
>is easy to crack, as is Jaguar - Seeker doesn't even have one, and neither 
>does Quantum] and just put a bullet in their heads when they step out of the 
>shower one morning.  
 
Um, I gotta go with Robert on this one.  Every campaign will customize, and 
every campaign will choose a different set of things to ignore or modify. 
However, one of the most likely things to be dropped is the Champions 
themselves (in favor of home grown characters).  Little point in creating 
Champions-specific weapons systems if those characters aren't in play. 
 
>	>10.  Include an entire section where each other Champions Universe 
>organization is listed in turn, with a detailed discussion on how VIPER 
>regards and deals with that organization.  (Each would be a quarter-page to 
>a full page or more, depending on how complex the relationship is.) 
> 
>	Nope - way too much work. 
 
It *is* way too much work...for every individual GM to have to duplicate 
this amount of work seems silly.  Let Scott do it for us; that's what we're 
paying him for when we buy his product. 
 
>	A well-thought out presentation is one thing, but the kind of detail 
>being discussed here is simply unnecessary. No one - and I mean *no one* - 
>uses the Champions Universe as written in the supplements in toto. Everyone 
>changes things, deletes groups they think are nothing more than packs of 
>Hostess Twinkies looking for a wrapper, and so on.  
 
Again, we're all going to change things, but we're all going to change 
*different* things.  Authors have to try and guess which items are least 
likely to require change by the greatest number of buyers.  Think modular. 
Detailed backgrounds, adventure scenarios and interlocking histories and 
long-term plans may well not fit into the home grown campaign universe 
(though I'd welcome the brief writeups of VIPER's relationship to other 
organizations, so long as that was kept separate).  But you can drop an 
attack helicopter or APC in anywhere.   
 
>	I feel like the same goes for the huge list of scenarios and plot 
>ideas that you're suggesting here too - frankly, elitist as it sounds - if 
>any GM can't create his own material , then he needs to hang up the hat and 
>pack it in.  
 
I'm in favor of GM's creating their own scenarios, certainly.  The 
occasional, short, scenario idea or plot hook is welcome, but writing up 
the whole adventure probably is a waste of time for many of us.  Remember, 
players have access to the same products the GMs do; to keep them in the 
dark we either have to write our own adventures or make significant changes 
to those we buy.  Keep adventure descriptions short and sketchy. 
 
Lots of material in a tightly integrated format -- bad. 
Lots of material in a modular, loosely woven format -- good. 
 
Damon 
 
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End of champ-l-digest V1 #94 
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