From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:45 PM 
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org 
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #97 
 
 
champ-l-digest      Wednesday, December 16 1998      Volume 01 : Number 097 
 
 
 
In this issue: 
 
    General VIPER stuff 
    Re: Updated VIPER 
    Re: the cottage game weekend 
    Sysabend.Org Hardware Woes 
    [none] 
    [none] 
    [none] 
    Re: CHAR:Mastadon (was Fireman skills) 
    Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
    RE: the cottage game weekend 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
    RE: the cottage game weekend 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
    RE: General VIPER stuff 
    RE: the cottage game weekend 
    RE: the cottage game weekend 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
    RE: the cottage game weekend 
    Re: General VIPER stuff 
    RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:04:43 -0800 
From: Scott Bennie <sbennie@dowco.com> 
Subject: General VIPER stuff 
 
Here's hoping this message gets to you folks in a non-annoying 
format... 
 
Robert Hudson said: 
>>    I feel like the same goes for the huge list of scenarios and plot 
ideas that you're suggesting here too - frankly, elitist as it sounds - 
if any GM can't create his own material , then he needs to hang up the 
hat and pack it in. [Note: I do not mean the occasional emergency 
pick-up game, or the real life crisis shortened planning time game and 
the like, I'm talking about people who have to depend on the published 
material to give them *every* major plot line and scenario in their 
games.] 
 
	It appears to me that what we need is simply good, solid material that 
is thought provoking - not immense, senseless lists of agencies and 
tie-ins to groups no one cares about, and equally immense lists of 
equipment and scenario ideas that anyone with the will to do so can 
create on their own. In this case, I really believe that the idea of 
"Less is more" strikes home pretty squarely. << 
 
I agree with most of the principles, but not the conclusion. Champions 
does work best as a tool kit for the GM to put together the campaign 
that they want. Champions GMs (at least the most outspoken ones) tend to 
want tools, not background. 
 
However I believe, more tools, properly presented, is better than 
fewer tools. A scenario hook (or a whole scenario) might be useless to 
the GM, but it may also spark an idea that the GM might take, adjust to 
suit the campaign, or alter as his/her muse sees fit, and make for a 
memorable campaign session. As long as the book is written in an 
entertaining manner that will keep the GM reading until he reaches to 
the part that inspires him, I think more is better. You can never 
predict what parts of a supplement a GM will bond with, and what pieces 
they'll want to nuke. Some things I think are neat as an author (such as 
the VIPER diary or the VIPER campaign outlines) are sections which I've 
been told aren't particularly useful. 
 
I do try to live by Allen Varney's recommendation that every piece of 
information in a supplement should have some possible effect on 
gameplay, be it a bit of history that may contain a plot hook, or a 
diary description of an agent that tells of some of the internal 
conflict in a Nest, or a weapon whose production line. I don't always 
succeed, but I try. It's the Airplane approach to supplement design - 
Airplane stuffs their movies with so many jokes you're bound to laugh at 
enough of them to feel good. In VIPER, we tried to put in as many GM 
toys and plot hooks as possible. 
 
I don't believe any scenario is ready to play out of the can, except 
perhaps for a dungeon-style crawl, and even then, the GM is in control 
of set-up and staging. These days what I need most from game supplements 
are interesting places to stage combats, new tactical challenges, and 
plot hooks to get the PCs there. Those will likely what I'll be 
concentrating on in the future. 
 
Ross Rannells said: 
>>Hope you don't mind me jumping in.  A couple changes I would suggest 
are as follows. First, free Raven the new Soviet Republic giving small 
amount of the land back to the decendants of their origanal owners and 
the dissolution of the Soviet military, a few enterpising young 
aristocrats should be able to break Raven free from Viper's control. << 
 
Raven's liberation is already handled in Dark Champions. 
 
>>Second, do the agents correctly, give them weapons and equipment based 
on the rules on pages 204 - 206 in the BBB. Its amazing how effective a 
100 point agent can be if his/her equipment is actually bought Focus, 
Indepentant, Strength Min, etc. << 
 
They are done correctly. I'm not interested in point effectiveness to 
the point where the character sheet is clogged down with enough 
limitations that a novice GM has to go to a lot of trouble to run an 
agent. The amount of time that a GM should spend between looking at a 
character sheet and announcing a character's action should be between 
five to ten seconds; longer than that, and pacing gets out of whack. 
 
Independent means a character has to buy a lost focus back with 
experience. It's meaningless for an NPC, unless the GM's going to go to 
the trouble of giving all his agents xp and use them as recuring 
characters. It's a pure point grab, and a clumsy one to boot. 
Independent is a dubious limitation in my book, designed to let 
characters in "little games" make magic items easier. It has no place in 
any Champions game I run. 
 
You can make a much better case for Strength minimums as useful 
information. But unless the character has something that causes him to 
vary his strength, this is also something of a bogus limitation. I think 
it should be included, but not as a limitation. 
 
>Third, get rid of Viperia. << 
 
Okay, I'll bite. Why do people complain about Viperia but not Jefferson 
Gable? He's a lot more gross. 
 
>>Fourth, give more low level NPC's 25, 50 and 75 point characters 
should be the mainstay of any organization since they are the most 
common and pentyful. 
 
I chose the 100 pt. plateau for the mainline agent because it was 
traditional. But I like lower powered agents too. 
 
>>Fifth, go more into how Viper gets the money to finance their more 
exotic escapades.  Smuggleing, Prostitution, and other crimes seem right 
up Viper's ally. 
 
Also good information to have, though you should be able to find good 
references to that sort of material in Dark Champions. 
 
To me, the economic heart of an agency like VIPER is using four color 
comic book technology to make money through criminal means; though this 
can be adjusted for the tone of the campaign. Examples of such schemes 
might include: 
 
* VIPER kidnaps the city's millionaires, puts them in the brainwashing 
booth, has them marry female VIPER agents, and then arranges "accidents" 
for them. 
* VIPER creates weapons that makes everyone in a city break out into 
epileptic spasms (unless they're paid a certain amount of money).  
* VIPER invents custom narcotics that allows an addict to spread an 
addiction by touching someone.  
* VIPER overrides the controls on the Army's experimental Herobuster 
giant robot and uses it to rob Fort Knox. 
* VIPER steals the sheath of Excalibur from the local museum and tries 
to analyze its invulnerable properties to duplicate through 
techno-magic. 
 
>>Please expand on these.  Don't make another here's some characters, 
equipment and some main players.  The great thing about SA:COH is the 
flavor and history that is their that the GM can insert their campaign 
into.  It would be great if Viper could also be done that way. << 
 
It's not handled the same way as SA, but by presenting options and 
giving GMs suggestions on how they can customize VIPER for their 
campaigns, it tries to do the same thing. It could be explained better, 
though. 
 
Scott Bennie 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) 
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) 
Subject: Re: Updated VIPER 
 
> 
>   Using this logic, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to replace the 
>Find Weakness with +2 CSLs with Ranged Combat.  The cost is the same, and 
>the GM doesn't have to track those Find Weakness Rolls. 
 
To be honest, in most cases I just roll once for a squad.  Sometimes this 
means the Hero gets the big owie, sometimes he skates. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:13:45 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
Subject: Re: the cottage game weekend 
 
> Right. This wasn't the part I was soliciting opinions on. If you don't 
> partake of the herb, that's your choice.  
 
Actually, I expect he was referring (hmm, there's a pun in there) to its 
legality rather than its appropriateness. Regardless of individual 
opinion on the subject, it's not our choice, or it's a choice fraught 
with such significant potential penalties that many consider it not 
worth the risk where I live. I expect that it's legal where you live, 
since you posted this to a public forum, but it's certainly not legal 
everywhere that people on this list are. 
 
Hence the bad British police impersonation. 
 
JAJ, GP 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:26:08 -0500 
From: GothGeek SysAdmin <xyzzy@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Sysabend.Org Hardware Woes 
 
Some of you may have noticed some slight delays in mail in the Champions list. 
Okay, slight isnt a good word for it. The machine that is handling the champ-l 
list is not very happy right now. 
 
I have cobbled up a temporary patch and have some new hardware on its way 
in and hope to have this *solved* soon.  Until then just imagine a poor 
MiniTower case with a 2000CFM furnace blower jacked into it.  The wonders  
of Ducttape... 
 
- --  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 - Tom Arnold -       When I was small, I was in love,                  -  
 - Sysabend   -       In love with everything.                          - 
 - CareTaker  -       And now there's only you...                       -  
 --------------         -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" - 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:02:00 -0800 
From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com> 
Subject: [none] 
 
unsubscribe 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:54:00 -0800 
From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com> 
Subject: [none] 
 
unsubscribe 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:54:00 -0800 
From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com> 
Subject: [none] 
 
unsubscribe 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:09:19 EST 
From: Leuszler@aol.com 
Subject: Re: CHAR:Mastadon (was Fireman skills) 
 
In a message dated 12/16/98 3:07:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
tstatler@igateway.net writes: 
 
> When reading a 
> magazine one came across a picture of a mastodon and joked "Hey remind 
> you of anyone?" 
 
Would this been an issue of D.P. 7 from Marvel's ill-fated New Universe 
imprint? 
 
Mike Leuszler 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:24:58 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: It makes my head hurt (Force Field Reversed) 
 
At 10:54 AM 12/15/1998 -0800, Dale Ward wrote: 
>      I've said it before and I'll probably say it again... it's YOUR game! 
>"Do what thou wilst" shall be the whole of the law! 
 
See, now this is why gamers get confused with witches and Satanists... 
 
Kidding, just kidding! 
 
Damon 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:30:23 -0500 
From: emiller1@worldbank.org 
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend 
 
I will not use this forum to discuss controlled substances.  But I would 
like to comment on the question of "what is the coolest/best/strangest 
place(s) you have ever gamed?" 
 
     For many years (10+) my gaming group always got together in one place. 
That place was what we affectionately called "The Little House".  This was 
a cinder-block building on the GM's property, which was not part of the 
main house, and was separated by a walk of about 30 yards.  The house had 
originally been constructed to allow the GM's grandparents a place to live 
out their years of retirement amongst their family, but since they had 
(sadly) long since passed away, the place had fallen on some hard times. 
We cleaned it up, and gathered together furniture from all four of our 
families, pieces that they were prepared to junk or give to Goodwill, and 
we "set up house."  We had a large refrigerator with a freezer, two 
couches, and four padded easy-chairs.  We also had two kerosene heaters 
(the GM's real house used Kerosene heaters as well).  Some of the best 
memories of us as a gaming group come from weekends and other marathon 
sessions held in the Little House.  There were times when we would game 
until we couldn't think straight; we would pack up slightly, and sack out 
in the Little House and the Big House, and get up 6 to 8 hours later, and 
start all over again, after the requisite trip up to the local convenience 
mart, which also had hot foods. 
     The GM lived in the Apalachian mountains in Maryland, on what is known 
as a tertiary road - the last to get plowed out.  Some of our fondest 
memories and best sessions came from getting snowed in, more than once for 
days at a time.  One session in particular, two years ago, we gamed all 
afternoon and all night, slept a few hours, and then spent a few hours that 
afternoon shovelling out the (very long) driveway.  We successfully made 
one run to the convenience mart, and started gaming again that evening.  By 
nine that night, the driveway and road were impassible once more.  A five 
day session (this was close to a weekend) resulted from all this, one of 
our longest, and best, ever. 
     The most unusual place I have ever held a role-playing session was 
actually in my car.  My present SO and I met at a gaming convention; as 
might be then surmised, gaming is a significant activity we like to pursue 
together.  She needed to visit family a few states away, and did not trust 
her vehicle to make the trip, let alone making the trip herself alone.  So 
I drove my car, and went along with her on this trip.  To pass the time on 
this 7+ hour journey, we started discussing a gaming world we were working 
on putting together jointly (Champions, natch).  This quickly turned into a 
series of role-playing scenes, as we allowed each other's NPCs to meet, and 
associate, giving us much better ideas of who and what we were dealing 
with.  We have never forgotten this, and whenever we journey in the same 
vehicle for any real length of time, gaming is often the entertainment of 
choice.  She has even learned to love my new car, because the dashboard has 
a lip around its upper surface, making it perfect for rolling dice when 
truly required. 
 
Just thought I would share. 
David 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:29:10 -0600 
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
 
At 12:08 AM Dec 15 Lockie wrote: 
 
	>point one- if you're bying a product at all, you expect it to have 
content.  I can work up a bunch of overviews in my head, i don't need that. 
If i can do the other stuff, i also don't need a product for that,. If i buy 
a product, i want content. 
 
	Perfectly reasonable - the big difficulty here is, I think, my 
failing to describe my point sufficiently well the first time out. What I'm 
suggesting is not that *all* of this material be knocked out - that would 
make the supplement about ten pages long, and utterly pointless. I thought 
the VIPER supplement was damn good - well balanced, and informative. My 
actual objection was to a suggestion by Bob G. to add in vastly more 
*additional* material to a hypothetical re-issue than I felt was called for 
in any supplement. 
 
> Point two- relationships define a group. How does viper deal with tech 
> groups? how about drug cartels? What about freelance supers, evil spirits, 
> secret societies, banana republics, daemon lords, ninja clans? That has 
> meaning, more than simply a short explanation of what the group is doing, 
> or the ever-vague 'matirial'. Explaining how it gets on with groups is 
> VERY important, the most vital concept- we can make up our own npc's and 
> so forth, we need to know about thge writers vision of how these people do 
> their buisness, and with whom. Are they anti-magic? Do they get their 
> asses kicked every time they take on the ninjas?. 
>  
	I think this is question of personal viewpoint. I've never used 
*any* group as written, and, as such, I generally prefer to deal with this 
material on my own. Not to say that everyone has to do it that way - Bob G. 
for example, said he uses *all* of the Champions Universe pretty close to as 
written - that's just my opinion.  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:50:38 -0500 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend 
 
At 08:30 AM 12/16/98 -0500, emiller1@worldbank.org wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
>I will not use this forum to discuss controlled substances.  But I would 
>like to comment on the question of "what is the coolest/best/strangest 
>place(s) you have ever gamed?" 
> 
>   
 
My college roommate was a physics major (for a while), and at one point had 
a project tracking radioactive decay which demanded that he make a brief 
observation every half hour or so. Since this was pretty boring, he asked 
me to run my Champions game - in the radiation lab. I got all my players 
together, and we role-played among the radiation symbols. I can't think of 
a more appropriate place to run a superhero game. 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:40:40 -0600 
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Long!] 
 
At 9:48 AM Dec 15 Bob G. wrote: 
 
	>I think you missed the point of Robert's objection.  He doesn't 
want a full list of all the US Nests, even if it's just a paragraph 
describing the Nest Leader and another paragraph describing the size, 
character, and practices of the Nest itself. Not that the logic really 
holds; after all, for every thing that goes into a sourcebook there will be 
someone who wants to change it.  The point of the above-succested listing 
would be to provide something for those who don't already have their own 
ideas to work from. 
 
	This is pretty much right on the money Bob. Include a few [most, 
even] of the major nests certainly, some medium and light-weight nests, 
absolutely - but not every...single...nest in the country. That's where I 
have to say that we've crossed the line into wasted space. 
 
	>Again, the point of the section is being missed.  This isn't a 
study in "this is how VIPER is dealing with the Champions, and you have to 
use the Champions in this adventure."  It's a look at "here's one more item 
in the arsenal of VIPER for dealing with supers that tick them off." And 
they're not, as a rule, the type to just put a bullet through the brain of 
an enemy as said enemy steps out of the shower.  They might do that to an 
agent who's turned State's evidence, but the Champions?  After all those 
public humiliations, VIPER is going to want to publicly humiliate them and 
show off their own power at the same time. It's one thing to kidnap Samuel 
Johnson and threaten to kill him if Quantum interferes with any more of 
VIPER's operations (been there, done that, got the hospital bills, according 
to CU).  It's another thing altogether to develop a Metabolic Disruptor 
(BODY Drain), arm a Five-Team with them, and make an example of her in front 
of the televised news media. 
 
	Okay - *big* difference in core visions of VIPER here with you Bob - 
I can't see any group that exists solely for profit wasting a billion bucks 
to humiliate *anyone.* If a normal thinks you're not hot stuff because 
Seeker trashed seven of your guys on national TV, then visit his grandmother 
with a chainsaw and he'll figure out the truth really quickly. [Granted, an 
extreme example, but real-life Colombian cartels have done exactly that for 
years and no one's been able to stop them either. There are lots of more 
subtle ways to make the point without a chainsaw, and VIPER knows 'em all - 
count on it.]  
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:57:42 -0600 
From: "Hudson, Robert" <x2rhudso@southernco.com> 
Subject: RE: General VIPER stuff 
 
At 1:05 AM Dec 16 Scott Bennie wrote: 
 
 
	>I agree with most of the principles, but not the conclusion. 
Champions does work best as a tool kit for the GM to put together the 
campaign that they want. Champions GMs (at least the most outspoken ones) 
tend to want tools, not background. 
 
	>However I believe, more tools, properly presented, is better than 
fewer tools. A scenario hook (or a whole scenario) might be useless to the 
GM, but it may also spark an idea that the GM might take, adjust to suit the 
campaign, or alter as his/her muse sees fit, and make for a memorable 
campaign session. As long as the book is written in an entertaining manner 
that will keep the GM reading until he reaches to the part that inspires 
him, I think more is better. You can never predict what parts of a 
supplement a GM will bond with, and what pieces they'll want to nuke. Some 
things I think are neat as an author (such as the VIPER diary or the VIPER 
campaign outlines) are sections which I've been told aren't particularly 
useful. 
 
	I agree wholeheartedly Scott! My problem here is that Bob's proposal 
did not just walk - but ran at breakneck pace - past what I considered 
"reasonable." I said before, and I'll repeat here - VIPER is damn good, you 
balanced out things very well. What I was attemptig to state my objection to 
was adding 30-odd pages of material listing what I felt was every minor 
player in the VIPER Universe, their hat size, their modus operendi, and a 
set of plot hooks for them. 
 
	>Okay, I'll bite. Why do people complain about Viperia but not 
Jefferson Gable? He's a lot more gross. 
 
	Beats me Scott. I mean, she's Supergirl - but that's not really an 
impediment to using her as long as your campaign supports that level of 
power. Maybe it's the 'cute and perky' costume and look in her illo? Maybe 
if it was all black leather or something it might make a difference? 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:53:42 -0500 
From: Brian Wawrow <bwawrow@mondello.toronto.fmco.com> 
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend 
 
] I'm kind of curious, though - I've usually associated, say, drinking & 
] gaming with the people who game for the more social aspects - and 
] similarly, most of the smokers I know say its a very social  
] activity - but 
] your post makes it sound like your group is very into the  
] roleplaying & 
] getting into character.  Does altering your mental state help  
] with those 
] aspects? 
Well, my group is definitely into roleplaying. Character development is the 
whole reason that we do it. It just gets fascinating to watch a character's 
personality and outlook change after he's been through some horrific 
situation. The only way that using mood altering substances helps in the 
character development is by forcing you to rely more on your intuition than 
your rational conscious mind. You don't need to take anything for this, it 
just comes easier. Four of five years ago, we used to take acid and game. 
Well, let me tell you, there was some pretty intense character interaction. 
Gladly, none of the people I game with do acid any more and I would 
certainly never drink more than a few beers in a game but putting on a 
little buzz definitely helps you to leave thoughts of your job and your 
bills alone for a while and get right into your character. 
 
I live in Toronto and pot is definitely not legal here, but, like most big 
cities, it's a fact of life. I imagine it's just as true in the UK or the 
states, more people smoke than you think. The cops have bigger fish to fry 
and so long as you're not a dealer or an idiot, evasion's pretty easy. Do 
you have any pirate software? You're probably more likely to get popped for 
that. Legalize! It's better for you than booze! 
 
<snip> 
] Oh, and I did have a 'costume session' when we happened to be  
] gaming on 
] Halloween weekend.  Anyone that dressed up as their character  
] got extra 
] points - and the guy that was playing a female character at  
] the time did a 
] scary good job! 
Heh. That's great. I bet it was a riot. One year my friends and I went to a 
Hallowe'en party as the X-Men. What a laugh. 
 
BRI 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:31:47 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Dr. Nuncheon" <jeffj@io.com> 
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend 
 
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Brian Wawrow wrote: 
 
> I just thought it might be interesting to compare the environment people 
> game in instead of which house rules and mechanical interpretations everyone 
> uses. The atmosphere and environment you game in has a real impact on the 
> flavour of your game. 
 
Indeed...of course, the activity you mentioned is as much a part of your 
gaming environment as the cottage and the woods, inasmuch as it affects 
the players and how they play.  I personally don't do mind-altering stuff 
when gaming (except caffeine & sugar) or especially GMing - I need to keep 
a clear head - but I know plenty of people who do.  (On the other hand, 
getting drunk and playing HoL was fun, but not for the gaming - we got 
about 20 feet away from the prison ship when the game broke down.) 
 
I'm kind of curious, though - I've usually associated, say, drinking & 
gaming with the people who game for the more social aspects - and 
similarly, most of the smokers I know say its a very social activity - but 
your post makes it sound like your group is very into the roleplaying & 
getting into character.  Does altering your mental state help with those 
aspects? 
 
> John Jerles mentioned playing on the wall of a real 
> castle. How cool is that? 
 
/Very/ cool. 
 
> That's got to be about the best possible place to 
> play in all the world. 
 
Well, unless you're playing Star Hero or Cyber Hero. ;) 
 
> I'm sure we've all gamed in a classroom at our high schools or in our 
> parents rumpus rooms on a card table. I want to know where the coolest 
> places to play are. C'mon, somebody must have bothered to go to some effort 
> at some point.  
 
In college, I was too poor.  When I was studying in England, I knew no 
other gamers there.  Now, I live with my gaming group (such as it is - two 
other people), so there's not much impetus to head off into the wild blue 
yonder, and not much of a place to go, unfortunately. 
 
Occasionally at college, I would run solo sessions, and these would 
sometimes be conducted on a walk through backcampus (several acres of deep 
woods), but unfortunately, that's about it. 
 
Oh, and I did have a 'costume session' when we happened to be gaming on 
Halloween weekend.  Anyone that dressed up as their character got extra 
points - and the guy that was playing a female character at the time did a 
scary good job! 
  
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:59:34 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
 
At 02:20 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Hudson, Robert wrote: 
> 
>> At 4:20 PM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> [No need to worry about my mocking anything you've said Bob - you're still 
>> *well* in the reasoned discussion stage! If it comes off that way I'm 
>> sorry.] 
>>  
> This is a re-send, I bounced last time. 
 
   Actually, it got through OK.  I got "This is taking a really long time" 
warnings on several of my own posts as well, but most of them have gotten 
through at long last.  (I'll re-send any that, in the end, just don't get 
through.) 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:21:09 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@erols.com> 
Subject: RE: the cottage game weekend 
 
At 09:53 AM 12/16/98 -0500, Brian Wawrow wrote: 
> 
>] I'm kind of curious, though - I've usually associated, say, drinking & 
>] gaming with the people who game for the more social aspects - and 
>] similarly, most of the smokers I know say its a very social  
>] activity - but 
>] your post makes it sound like your group is very into the  
>] roleplaying & 
>] getting into character.  Does altering your mental state help  
>] with those 
>] aspects? 
>Well, my group is definitely into roleplaying. Character development is the 
>whole reason that we do it. It just gets fascinating to watch a character's 
>personality and outlook change after he's been through some horrific 
>situation. The only way that using mood altering substances helps in the 
>character development is by forcing you to rely more on your intuition than 
>your rational conscious mind. You don't need to take anything for this, it 
>just comes easier. Four of five years ago, we used to take acid and game. 
>Well, let me tell you, there was some pretty intense character interaction. 
>Gladly, none of the people I game with do acid any more and I would 
>certainly never drink more than a few beers in a game but putting on a 
>little buzz definitely helps you to leave thoughts of your job and your 
>bills alone for a while and get right into your character. 
> 
>I live in Toronto and pot is definitely not legal here, but, like most big 
>cities, it's a fact of life. I imagine it's just as true in the UK or the 
>states, more people smoke than you think. The cops have bigger fish to fry 
>and so long as you're not a dealer or an idiot, evasion's pretty easy. Do 
>you have any pirate software? You're probably more likely to get popped for 
>that. Legalize! It's better for you than booze! 
 
I don't use mind-altering substances in my life, but all of my friends used 
to. 
 
Let me tell you, the 'intensity' is in their minds only.  Gaming whilst 
high or tripping makes you -think- it's more intense, while those on whom 
you inflict your altered self are merely deprived of a decent nights gaming. 
 
I have now gotten rid of all the potheads from my game, because I was 
sick of having to repeat myself, or wait until they got through their 
laughing fits or paranoia, or mood of the moment.  If buffoonery is your 
goal, by all means, get high and game.  Just leave me out.  
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
"Hold it the greatest wrong to prefer life to honor 
and for the sake of life to lose the reason for living." 
        Juvenal, Satires 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:17:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: General VIPER stuff 
 
At 11:04 PM 12/15/98 -0800, Scott Bennie wrote: 
>Here's hoping this message gets to you folks in a non-annoying 
>format... 
 
   Success, Scott!  :-] 
 
>However I believe, more tools, properly presented, is better than 
>fewer tools. A scenario hook (or a whole scenario) might be useless to 
>the GM, but it may also spark an idea that the GM might take, adjust to 
>suit the campaign, or alter as his/her muse sees fit, and make for a 
>memorable campaign session. As long as the book is written in an 
>entertaining manner that will keep the GM reading until he reaches to 
>the part that inspires him, I think more is better. You can never 
>predict what parts of a supplement a GM will bond with, and what pieces 
>they'll want to nuke. Some things I think are neat as an author (such as 
>the VIPER diary or the VIPER campaign outlines) are sections which I've 
>been told aren't particularly useful. 
 
   While I agree on the diary, I found the campaign outlines rather 
thought-provoking.  Wise VIPER Guys and Have VR-01, Will Travel will be 
inspiring some NPC activities in my game.  Also, I'm working up an 
"alternate universe" based on something between Green VIPER Liberator and 
VIPERs in the Dust, for when I start taking my PCs on interdimensional 
romps.  :-] 
 
>I do try to live by Allen Varney's recommendation that every piece of 
>information in a supplement should have some possible effect on 
>gameplay, be it a bit of history that may contain a plot hook, or a 
>diary description of an agent that tells of some of the internal 
>conflict in a Nest, or a weapon whose production line. I don't always 
>succeed, but I try. It's the Airplane approach to supplement design - 
>Airplane stuffs their movies with so many jokes you're bound to laugh at 
>enough of them to feel good. In VIPER, we tried to put in as many GM 
>toys and plot hooks as possible. 
 
   Quite so.  In fact, my suggestion on this was to just take a couple 
dozen or so of these hooks, expand them to a paragraph or two, and list 
them all in the back of the book to help GMs' creative juices going. 
 
>>Third, get rid of Viperia. << 
> 
>Okay, I'll bite. Why do people complain about Viperia but not Jefferson 
>Gable? He's a lot more gross. 
 
   One thing that I can think of is direction of hostility.  When Viperia 
shows up, it's because VIPER sent her.  Gable will, as a rule, only be 
encountered (in a combat situation) when the PCs go after him, and even 
then it'll take a long time in a campaign before a VIPER storyline would 
take them to his house. 
   Another possibility is concept.  Viperia looks a lot like a Supergirl 
ripoff (though I suspect that the resemblence is for reasons other than 
"ripoff"), while Gable is more original, or at least not as blatantly 
unoriginal. 
 
>>>Fifth, go more into how Viper gets the money to finance their more 
>exotic escapades.  Smuggleing, Prostitution, and other crimes seem right 
>up Viper's ally. 
> 
>Also good information to have, though you should be able to find good 
>references to that sort of material in Dark Champions. 
> 
>To me, the economic heart of an agency like VIPER is using four color 
>comic book technology to make money through criminal means; though this 
>can be adjusted for the tone of the campaign. Examples of such schemes 
>might include: 
> 
>* VIPER kidnaps the city's millionaires, puts them in the brainwashing 
>booth, has them marry female VIPER agents, and then arranges "accidents" 
>for them. 
>* VIPER creates weapons that makes everyone in a city break out into 
>epileptic spasms (unless they're paid a certain amount of money).  
>* VIPER invents custom narcotics that allows an addict to spread an 
>addiction by touching someone.  
>* VIPER overrides the controls on the Army's experimental Herobuster 
>giant robot and uses it to rob Fort Knox. 
>* VIPER steals the sheath of Excalibur from the local museum and tries 
>to analyze its invulnerable properties to duplicate through 
>techno-magic. 
 
   These are all good plotlines (and this list is a start at the kind of 
thing I was talking about for scenario ideas), but what I think was being 
referred to here was some ongoing money-making schemes that explain why 
VIPER keeps going even though heroes keep foiling its big plans.  Arms 
smuggling, narcotics R&D, credit card fraud, assassination for hire, and 
other ongoing illegal activities could still be right up VIPER's alley. 
They could even get into "borderline" activities like casinos and online 
"adult" services. 
   Of course, the specifics of the activities would depend on the nest, 
among other things. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:57:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Updated VIPER [Longer!] 
 
At 08:35 AM 12/15/98 -0600, Hudson, Robert wrote: 
>At 4:20 PM Dec 14 Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >But not necessarily.  Given an expansion of several pages in the 
>book, I'd consider it helpful to have one of those pages devoted to 
>reversing the perspective.  Besides, there are tactics that VIPER can use 
>against villains (such as anonymously feeding information on them to the 
>authorities, including the PCs) that it might be reluctant to use against 
>heroes. 
> 
> Why would it be reluctant to use this against heroes? Slap a few 
>headlines like "James Harmon III *is* Defender" across the tabloids with 
>documentary evidence and Defender ceases to be a problem. Pay a couple of 
>kids to say Seeker molested them and watch that popularity rating drop 
>through the floor. These are the *BAD* guys, right? Why would they have more 
>moral scruples in dealing with heroes [the enemy] than other villains [also 
>the enemy]? 
 
   Who said it was because of moral scruples?  Part of the character of 
VIPER is that, if someone messes with them, they want it known that it was 
VIPER that got rid of them.  The more troublesome the enemy, the more 
important it is that VIPER's name be in the Cause of Death.  The Black 
Eagle example in the existing work is presented as an exception to the rule. 
   I'll grant that the Grandfather (the New York Nest Leader) would 
probably take tactics similar to what you're saying.  So would many other 
Nest Leaders.  Others would take a more "four-color," "public execution" 
approach -- Python comes to mind as someone who'd rather publicly peel 
Defender's armor off with his bare hands, so he can publicly demonstrate 
his own strength and that of VIPER before tearing the guy's head off. 
 
> >But why make someone buy a whole bunch of books when one will 
>suffice? 
> 
> Well.... Because Hero will go out of business and fold up shop if we 
>don't? 
 
   Ah, so *that's* why TSR's doing so well -- they've spread their rules 
and other materials across dozens of books, so their gamers have to buy 
hundreds of dollars of stuff each... 
   Maybe the Fifth Edition HSR should be a two-volume work, with the 
character creation rules in Volume One and the rest in Volume Two. 
 
> >Hm.  Do I get to summarily mock this part of your post?  ;-] 
>Seriously, it's extremely hard to tell from the keyboard exactly what kind 
>of thing a GM is going to need.  Some will needs lots of statistical 
>write-ups for every character, gadget, vehicle, and item; others will need 
>lots of story hooks and background material. 
> 
> I really think the way to go here is something in the middle Bob - 
>the VIPER sourcebook was pretty well balanced in that regard, but I think 
>much more either way and you might as well just call the thing off. 
 
   My list of suggestions added to both sides.  On the one hand, a couple 
of extra villains (along with logical character development for those 
already there), a few more weapons, and some expansions on the vehicles. 
On the other, a bit more detail on the corporations and relations with 
other orgainzations, and something a bit more explicit in the way of plot 
hooks. 
 
> >For one thing, I happen to be one GM who uses the Champions 
>Universe as nearly exactly as written as possible.  I do change a few 
>things, such as stuff that's contradictory (like a good deal of the 
>background material in Enemies For Hire) or that strikes me as blatantly 
>illogical (like many of the special abilities for Genocide Pawns). 
> 
> You do? Okay - you're my exception then, because you're the *only* 
>guy I've met in twelve years that did!  
 
   Actually, I do have a specific reason for it, in addition to what I've 
already said.  I figure I'm going to be writing stuff set in the CU, so I 
might as well game in it, if only so I can playtest my own material. 
 
> Personally, I think the 'Champions Universe' suffers the inevitable 
>consequences of being cobbled together from elements of twenty different 
>writer's personal campaigns and viewpoints - it's more than a touch 
>incoherent, downright silly in places, and suffers from a desperate need to 
>be visited by someone like Marvel's 'Scourge' who'll put a legion of loser 
>characters out of my misery. [Doesn't mean I don't love the game - but the 
>campaign world needs serious help IMO.] 
 
   The incoherence of cobbling from multiple viewpoints makes it a 
near-perfect representation of its original source material.  After all, 
this is also how the DC and Marvel Universes came to be. 
   I do think, though, that the Champions Universe sourcebook could have 
been done better.  It was a nice try, and in some places even helpful, but 
it should have been done by a single author with a specific plan and format 
so it came out looking more like JNL or SACoH.  One of the projects I'd 
wanted to do in 2000 (after my current slate of projects is done) was a 2nd 
Edition CU, this time done in a manner that's a bit more coherent, 
eliminates useless characters (as well as characters that HERO no longer 
owns the rights to and whose creators aren't interested in keeping them as 
a part of the CU), and makes the whole thing as coherent and useful for a 
Champions GM as OHOTMU or Who's Who would be for readers of the Marvel and 
DC Universes (or at least nearly so). 
 
> >If we limit the possibilities to those who can come up with 
>exciting, original stories all on their own, that situation isn't likely to 
>change. It's similar to the problem with getting new Hero System players, as 
>discussed in another thread; if we want more people to get involved, we need 
>to service the newbies, and those who have problems in various areas. 
> 
> I can see the point, but I feel like presenting the new player or GM 
>with a volume of material as large as what it seems to me you're describing 
>is just as intimidating, and will probably have the same consequences as 
>presenting them with a game system that has the reputation for complexity 
>that Hero does - they'll turn elsewhere. I don't think the solution to 
>Hero's shrinking player base really lies with the rules or the supplements - 
>Rolemaster has us beat all hollow for complexity, and they attract new 
>players - but rather with the fact that people willing to make the effort to 
>*run* the game are becoming fewer and further between. 
 
   Well, we had the opportunity to suggest what we'd add if the VIPER 
Sourcebook were to be updated with an extra 64 pages.  That's how big the 
suggested product was going to be. 
   How is having several dozen additional scenario suggestions going to 
scare off new GMs and players?  It seems to me that the problem product is 
the one that presents a bunch of really interesting material, but no clear 
way for the GM to work it into his campaign.  The campaign-related 
suggestions I'm making simply expand on what's already there, and make the 
book useful to even more GMs than already are able to use it. 
- --- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROS member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join? 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
------------------------------ 
 
End of champ-l-digest V1 #97 
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