Digest Archive vol 1 Issue 414
From: owner-champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:33 PM
To: champ-l-digest@sysabend.org
Subject: champ-l-digest V1 #414
champ-l-digest Sunday, June 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 414
In this issue:
Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Castling
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
Re: Swapping stats
It's so big!!!
Partial Use of Powers
RE: Partial Use of Powers
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Re: Partial Use of Powers
Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
Re: Partial Use of Powers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: miq@teleport.com
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
John Desmarais says:
>
> While the list discussions do tend to be primarily Champions related, it really is a Hero
> System list (as illustrated by the general lack of Fuzion related discussions). It is
> named the Champions Mailing List mostly because the name Champions is more well
> known than Hero System.
Actually, this list originally was for Champions discussion. Back in 1990,
Archer and I started the list as a means of input and discussion so that
the Hero Software gang could sound ideas for their work off us. It was run
off Archer's workstation: champs@elysium.sgi.com and was administrated by
hand by me. When I left the bay area in 1992 the list moved to omg.com and
Geoff took over. Then most recently John has taken up the helm.........
As the list grew in numbers, and the members in experience, many branched
out to other sub genres within Hero system, but I guess we still call it
Champions.
- --
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
>Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
>freeform PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work for
>you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
>
I don't do PBEMs, but I am both a player and an admin on a pretty much
system-free MUX. The experiences are, in some ways, so different it's very
difficult to compare them.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:13:01 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
At 12:42 AM 6/20/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
>>freeform PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work for
>>you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
>>
>
>I don't do PBEMs, but I am both a player and an admin on a pretty much
>system-free MUX. The experiences are, in some ways, so different it's very
>difficult to compare them.
I suppose many of the Onelist games may be MUXs rather than PBeMs; I've
never played in either, and the existence of MUXs slipped my mind. Is
there an umbrella term that covers both? "Online interactive gaming" or
something?
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:36:51 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
David McKee wrote:
>
> >Oh, is THAT what this is all about? Mass?
>
> A:
> >case of Teleport, you can legimately claim that there is a specified
> >way to increase the number of targets - buy extra mass.
>
> [while there is also an additional, DIFFERENT, method for area; the
> cause of this thread]
But nothing at all to do with my answer; I branched off to a purely
"TK" view. I mention Teleport only "en passant", as it were.
> B:
> >This isn't the
> >case with TK - if I want to affect more targets, I've got to do it the
> >traditional way of buying AE.
>
> C:
> >clear to me that the "lift 400kg per hex" is really the only possible
> >interpretation.
>
> Given that you yourself stated A and B, I cannot understand your
> conclusion (C).
My conclusion ("C") is with respect only to TK - not Teleport.
> By your own admission, TK isn't the same as Teleport (A <> B)
Precisely. I wasn't arguing one way or another about Teleport - I
was arguing about TK (why? Because Bob and I have disagreed on this
before. ;-)
> If TK is the "lift 400kg per hex" conclusion (by the virtue of B),
> then as far as I can understand, it is only logical that Teleport
> is not a "lift 400kg per hex" conclusion, because of B....
As I stated elsewhere, I don't believe it's meaningful to apply AE
to Teleport. If it is applied in addition to UBO or UAO, then it
takes on a meaning, but:
- - in the case of UBO, it already has a specified way of increasing
the number of targets (ie +1/4 for every doubling). I would tend not
to allow AE to "override" this. My reasoning is as follows -
in essence, you are lending the power to 1 or more people. Since I
have ruled above that I don't think AE is a meaningful advantage for
Teleport without UBO or UAO, then effectively the recipients get a
Teleport power with AE but not UBO or UAO on it. The AE is thus
meaningless. IMHO, of course.
- - in the case of UAO, Teleport has become an attack power. As such,
I would ignore the extra mass completely (except, possibly, in the
case of inanimate objects) and rule that, if combined with AE, it
Teleported all targets within the area.
So in essence, I would suggest that AE is only meaningful for
Teleport in the case of Usable Against Others. Indeed, I would
go one step further and say that I wouldn't allow Area Effect
on any power excepting those that are used to "attack" with. You
can have AE Energy Blast, AE Aid, or even AE Force Field, UAO - but
not AE Teleport, AE Flight, AE Armour, and so forth.
YMMV.
> If we equate Teleport's Mass extension for roughly "the quantity
> of targets" because the Area extension is something different,
> discovered through contrast of TK, then the only conclusion I
> can come up with is that Teleport w/ AE doesn't apply the Mass
> limit per hex, but rather the total, since AE and Mass are
> unrelated.
>
> I'm confused.
I hope I've clarified my position somewhat.
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:37:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin wrote:
<snip>
> category alone (including several dozen separate e-mail games devoted to
> "Dawson's Creek Meets Buffy the Vampire Slayer"!) and I have to wonder
Hmmm... (looks for Buffy write-up posted a while back).
<snip>
> Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
> free form PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work for
> you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
<snip>
I did, in fact, engage in "free form" on line roleplaying on a
social talker... It was my first, and best time...
>>>>> "I'm not crazy, I just don't care..."
A Summary: Two very bored people create personae. One of the
two (myself) "runs" the game in so far as setting, while both
players contribute with plot.
The Plot: A female Vampire leaves Vancouver after she
kills a street gang in self-defense. Disheartened over the
experience (as she hadn't killed anyone in one hundred years),
she fled into the forest, pursued by local law enforcement.
Fortunately, she knows a great deal about survival since
she was once part of Norse civilization when she was a human.
An insane, but masterfully intelligent,
carnival side-show freak (billed as the "autistic somnambulist")
with an enigmatic past (and no morals) has found insight in his
madness... With an intuitive knowledge of non-elucidian geometry
and "the spaces between the angles," he had found a way to move
through the dimensions. Erratic, chaotic, deadly, and
unpredictable, he crosses her path.
The Harlequin and Victoria met in an open
field. The Harlequin demonstrated a bit of showmanship, but was
blocking her path. After a bit of show, the somewhat amused
Victoria decided to leave... or at least try.
The Harlequin explained that he loved her,
and had to kill her. Dawn steadily approaching, and the law
close behind, Victoria had no choice but to fight the Harlequin.
What followed was a combat, without rules,
without dice, without character sheets. Simply put, the
entire effort was cooperative... and that cooperation
was vital. It worked out wonderfully, with vivid and
cinemaically viable descriptions of the combat and resoltions
I found totally reasonable.
>>>>> "Trancending perception to see reality..."
Comparing "free form" to HERO is like
comparing a dinner date to a scheduled vacation.
While "free from" can be a lot of fun,
and plays up more on creativity, it requires that both
parties know how to motivate a story, how to develop plot,
and how to develop various disputes over things like fighting,
or what the character's capabilities are, etc. In this way
you can't always be sure what you get, or what you get is fair.
For groups, especially groups where the characters wish
to do alot of fighting, or competing, this can cause a number of
problems. The lack os clearly defined stats might hinder conflict
resolution.
Of course, it's very easy to gloss over the
fulfilling RP you get from free form when you're mulling over
HERO books and dice. That, and "artistic licence" may or may
not be HERO friendly, depending on your Game Master.
I doubt I would have had the same experience
if I were to write something as unpredictable and mercurial
up as the Harlequin while worrying about prohibitive costs,
or OCV/DCV levels... I also was allowed to make things up
"on the fly," such as a number of gadgets based on
carnival and stage magic motifs.
In HERO, it's some-what hard for me to come up with things
"off the cuff" (admittedly, I'm not intimately famaliar with HERO
rules... so this is a problem for me). Another advantage of free
form: the setting is very mallable, since you use judgement to
gauge the enviornment and NPC's. It allowed for the Harlequin's
random Teleport/XDM to New York City where he shot a business-
man (who would have eventually "caused much in the way of death
and destruction in the future" [how did he know that?]) so
Victoria could feed, allowed for the figure concealed in shadow in
The Carnival of Souls to remain as such until he was discovered,
and allowed for more hand-waving when it came to an entire scene
in a post apocylptic train of death filled with radiation victims.
It's guiltless ret-conning.
I also doubt that I would have been able to allow
the Harlequin take a "quick break" from combat to recite a
disjointed "Pop Goes The Weasel" while he reseted his shoulder
joint, or the player playing Victoria to decide to "go unconscious"
after fighting because it's "dramatically appropriate."
>>>>> "Do you hear the ants screaming?"
I am famaliar with various MU* services on line. One
in particular is a Super MUSH. It lacks a system, and relies
entirely on descriptions. Conflict resolution is consensual,
or if necessary, a judge steps in to guide things along.
While not as narrative as the above example, and I'm sure
not as cinematically friendly (it's much harder to resolve
conflicts with someone you don't know), I found the lack
of rules aided in the way players described their characters.
This beings up the interesting credo of HERO I've heard on this
list about modeling the concept before the power.
Even stranger than this (IMHO) are MU* type games
which require the consent of other characters to preform actions
against the character _despite_ the fact there sre statistics
among these MU* games. (You can find out more info about MU*
type games by going to http://www.godlike.com/mush or http://
www.mudconnect.com... buth are large, comprehensive listings of
MU* games by catagory, program platform, genre, and policy).
>>>>> "There's a method to my madness..."
If you know a system well, have a good relation-
ship with your GM, or go about playing in a "blind" or
what I like to call "pin-ball mechanics" RPG, you can achieve
the same effect. Oddly enough, on-line role-playing adds
to these Role Playing methodologies (which I'll describe
below).
"Blind" role-playing occurs when your character
sheet (normally, of a pregenerated character), is kept by the
GM. Rolls may or may not be done by the player. This
style of role playing lifts the burden of the mechanics off
the player. It also prevents the player from conceptualizing
the characters as statistics and more as characters.
I call it "pin-ball mechanics" because all
of the bells and whistles are on the outside- the history,
the concept, and (in laymen's terms) a general description
of what the character is about is in the hands of the player.
All of the complex circuitry is internalized- in this case, the
game's mechanics.
I find this system of RP works best for
dramatic or cinematic Heroic level role-playing.
It also works well on-line, as the only thing you're
concentrating on is the plot and all of the mechanics can be
internalized by a computer.
In closing, I like the security and regularity that
HERO provides, and I'm sure, in time, I'll be good enough with
the system (and my custom tailored house rules) to run a game
that is both mechanically and role-playing sound.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:44:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: Castling
So... we have Teleportation, 1/2 END; Only to Castle (-1), Only
with Coordinated Actions (-1/2)...
Teleportation; Only to Castle (-1); UAO (Brother Only), Only to
Castle (-1)...
XDM, Only to Castle...
Hopefully, Mind Link to coordinate all of the actions...
The entire "Shares STUN Damage" could be a Physical Limitation...
>>>>>
Interesting thought. Make the XDM all dimensions. Make the Mind
Link All Dimensions. Now, place the twins in two seperate
dimensions. Very interesting effect.
>>>>>
BECV Teleport... is the Line of Sight normally found in Teleoport
replaceable with BECV? If so, perhaps it can be used to negate
any error in Teleporting with Mind Link locating the other twin...
...or the other twin can be a Fixed Location. :)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:47:28 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 10:32 AM 6/19/1999 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
> >Well, I don't have the book with me right now, but does the description
> >of TK even MENTION Mass? All TK does is give you Ranged STR. Which
> >means I can do anything with TK that I could do with STR, except I can
> >do it at range.
>
> STR lifts mass.
In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
(As an aside - this is why I don't think fixing HA is as simple as
increasing the cost to 5 pts per die. Why would anyone buy it, when
they could buy STR and get Figured Characteristics as well? I
personally set it at 5 pts per die, but it's a 0 END power by
default).
> >So why can't I use a full 20 STR to LIFT, rather than Punch? In the
> >case of Teleport, you can legimately claim that there is a specified
> >way to increase the number of targets - buy extra mass. This isn't the
> >case with TK - if I want to affect more targets, I've got to do it the
> >traditional way of buying AE. If we look at it as several targets that
> >are being lifted, rather than one humongous amount of mass, it seems
> >clear to me that the "lift 400kg per hex" is really the only possible
> >interpretation.
>
> This is just a small part of why I have a problem with having
> Punch/Squeeze as an automatic part of Telekinesis; it creates such an
> imbalance (or, if you don't consider this an imbalance, at least
> confusion).
I can see why you have a problem with Punch - but Squeeze? Using
TK to squeeze someone is about the most common use there is in the
genre - from the Great and Powerful Turtle to Marvel Girl/Phoenix.
Regardless - TK is ranged STR; anything STR can do, TK should be
able to do as well. Are you suggesting that you would prefer TK
to be something like Flight, UAO?
> However, even if this is corrected, your argument would apply to AoE
> STR, which is a not atypical construct for giant humanoids (whether
> organic or robotic).
I've seen this at the AE: One Hex level often enough, but rarely
higher.
> In this case, I would certainly argue that the giant does full STR
> damage to each target in an area, but can still lift only what his
> STR would yield as a total and not per hex. And so it would be with
> TK.
WEEELLLL...
If you use only one hand, then your STR is considered 5 pts less than
normal (makes sense; 5 pts less is "half" STR). AE STR would presumably
mean really big hands, but you can generally only pick up 1 object in
each hand in any case. So I'd allow the giant to pick up two objects -
one with each hand - with his STR - 5 for both. Of course, this isn't
actually any more than he could normally carry. But if he had Extra
Limbs, then he'd be able to grab and lift multiple objects in this
fashion.
TK is different. By default, it's only got one "hand", but when you
buy Area Effect you get a whole pile of other "hands" to use. In
effect, as I see it, Area Effect TK gives you as many "Extra Limbs"
as there are targets (if one seriously disagrees with this, consider
that those "extra hands" could certainly swat or squeeze multiple
targets with full STR - so why not lift?)
- --
GAZZA
"To know others is wisdom.
To know one's self is enlightenment."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:23:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
At 09:47 PM 6/20/1999 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 10:32 AM 6/19/1999 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>> >Well, I don't have the book with me right now, but does the description
>> >of TK even MENTION Mass? All TK does is give you Ranged STR. Which
>> >means I can do anything with TK that I could do with STR, except I can
>> >do it at range.
>>
>> STR lifts mass.
>
>In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
>(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
>in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
Energy Blast makes holes in walls by damaging them. STR does not lift
things by hitting or squeezing them. It lifts them by, well, lifting them.
>(As an aside - this is why I don't think fixing HA is as simple as
>increasing the cost to 5 pts per die. Why would anyone buy it, when
>they could buy STR and get Figured Characteristics as well? I
>personally set it at 5 pts per die, but it's a 0 END power by
>default).
Someone once posted a version of HA that cost 5 points per die, but at
that level had many of the properties of Energy Blast that you wouldn't get
with STR, such as Spreading. I liked this version, and strongly
recommended it for 5th Edition Hero. The idea was clearly not the road
taken, though....
>> This is just a small part of why I have a problem with having
>> Punch/Squeeze as an automatic part of Telekinesis; it creates such an
>> imbalance (or, if you don't consider this an imbalance, at least
>> confusion).
>
>I can see why you have a problem with Punch - but Squeeze? Using
>TK to squeeze someone is about the most common use there is in the
>genre - from the Great and Powerful Turtle to Marvel Girl/Phoenix.
Not to mention Uncle Martin, any Jedi Knight, a couple of Star Trek
one-off characters (notably in the episode "Plato's Stepchildren," but one
or two others as well), et al. But of all that, I've never seen anything
that I'd call a "telekinetic squeeze," except maybe in one ST:Classic case
where a powerful telekinetic had hold of (I think) Kirk's throat.
I've seen effects where telekinesis was used, and something was being
squeezed, but the dynamic of what was going on would lead me to use
something else -- in most cases, RKA BOECV w/BODY -- to represent it in
game terms.
>Regardless - TK is ranged STR; anything STR can do, TK should be
>able to do as well. Are you suggesting that you would prefer TK
>to be something like Flight, UAO?
No, I'm saying that I'd prefer TK to be lift and move only. Damaging
effects should be bought separately, using damaging Powers.
>> However, even if this is corrected, your argument would apply to AoE
>> STR, which is a not atypical construct for giant humanoids (whether
>> organic or robotic).
>
>I've seen this at the AE: One Hex level often enough, but rarely
>higher.
Same here, at least in game write-ups, though I've seen giants in TV and
movies that would be other versions.
>> In this case, I would certainly argue that the giant does full STR
>> damage to each target in an area, but can still lift only what his
>> STR would yield as a total and not per hex. And so it would be with
>> TK.
>
>WEEELLLL...
>
>If you use only one hand, then your STR is considered 5 pts less than
>normal (makes sense; 5 pts less is "half" STR). AE STR would presumably
>mean really big hands, but you can generally only pick up 1 object in
>each hand in any case. So I'd allow the giant to pick up two objects -
>one with each hand - with his STR - 5 for both. Of course, this isn't
>actually any more than he could normally carry. But if he had Extra
>Limbs, then he'd be able to grab and lift multiple objects in this
>fashion.
This is stretching things a bit IMO. After all, as you apparently
acknowledge yourself, if the giant has 100 STR he'd still be able to lift
only 100 STR worth of stuff (100 tons IIRC) no matter how big his hands
were or how many limbs he has.
>TK is different. By default, it's only got one "hand", but when you
>buy Area Effect you get a whole pile of other "hands" to use. In
>effect, as I see it, Area Effect TK gives you as many "Extra Limbs"
>as there are targets (if one seriously disagrees with this, consider
>that those "extra hands" could certainly swat or squeeze multiple
>targets with full STR - so why not lift?)
Maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but to my mind if AoE gave
the user extra telekinetic "hands" then those "hands" wouldn't have to be
in adjacent hexes. It's more like increasing the size of the "hand."
Whether that's the case or not, I don't see having extra "hands" making
this kind of a difference on Telekinesis, any more than I'd see Extra Limbs
doing the same for STR.
- ---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROS member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Merry-Go-Round Webring -- wanna join?
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Interested in sarrusophones? Join the Sarrusophone Mailing List!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/sarrus.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:24:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> A lot of what Michael Surbrook posts would probably be inappropriate for
> most supers games, but would go great for Horror Hero, Fantasy Hero, and
> other Hero System games. More than one discussion -- including one rather
> recent one -- has been regarding some aspect of fantasy or sci-fi.
I tend to post what ever strikes may fancy and what ever I have recently
read or seen. Since I am trying to make my site a serious multi-genre
character archive, I figure it's a good idea to toss out my creations to
the list, since occasionally get useful feedback and ideas.
The last superhero I posted was (uhm...) the Joker. My last few character
posts included: Major Motoko Kusanagi (anime/cyberpunk setting), Colonel
Steve Austin (book/super agent or superheroic setting), Darth Vader
(movie/space opera or superhero setting) and a whole slew of monsters from
AD&D, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu (etc). Oh, yeah and Bigfoot. My next
character adaption will probably be Gil Hamilton, agent of ARM.
- --
Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
"Be not afraid of greatness: Some are born great, some achieve greatness
and some have greatness thrust upon 'em."
(Twelfth Night, II,iv)
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jun 1999 12:21:10 -0400
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Swapping stats
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
| > +40 Strength, Side Effect: 2D6 Drain INT (-1/2).
* GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> on Fri, 18 Jun 1999
| Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. You mistyped that, right? Because surely
| you know that it would have to be 3d6 rather than 2d6; it's 30 Active
| Points OR 1/2 the Active Cost of the power, whichever is GREATER.
what*EVER*.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE3bRT2gl+vIlSVSNkRAsfCAKCUUSaRkQWS4TBK6LDIRvDBL1tN+ACg7UwU
6V/1jPwYks6M90XBydtLkIs=
=U4De
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- --
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:22:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@NJCU.edu>
Subject: It's so big!!!
I almost had a HEROrgasam when I saw the well researched lists
this person complied. Be sure to follow the link on the page to the
various super lists, as the opening page has some lists, but not the juicy
ones. :)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/2864
Wow! :)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:37:55 -0400
From: "Dave Mattingly" <dave@haymaker.win.net>
Subject: Partial Use of Powers
How would you GMs rule on a power that doesn't have to use all its options
all the time?
For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:38:32 -0400
From: "David W Cheung" <dwcheung@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Partial Use of Powers
Personally, my house rules allow partial use of powers in a Multipower;
I.E. I have a telekinetic who has TK with fine manipulation (40 STR, w/fine
manipulation, 70 Active pts.) He can use the 40 STR with no manipulation
and only costs him 60 active pts. from the Multipower.
Same for flight with extra Non-combat multipliers. Only costs him if he is
using them.
******************************
Subject: Partial Use of Powers
How would you GMs rule on a power that doesn't have to use all its options
all the time?
For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
Dave Mattingly
http://haymaker.org
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
>At 12:42 AM 6/20/1999 -0700, Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>>Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
>>>freeform PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work for
>>>you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
>>>
>>
>>I don't do PBEMs, but I am both a player and an admin on a pretty much
>>system-free MUX. The experiences are, in some ways, so different it's very
>>difficult to compare them.
>
>I suppose many of the Onelist games may be MUXs rather than PBeMs; I've
>never played in either, and the existence of MUXs slipped my mind. Is
>there an umbrella term that covers both? "Online interactive gaming" or
>something?
I've never heard such a term, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course.
But to answer your question for you, I've found that while in some ways the
MU**ing experience has been much more 'pure' and direct, it's also got it's
corresponding annoyances. Of course this isn't a simple question because
MUSHes and the like range all the way from having fairly heavily coded
systems to the entirely narrative approach on Children of the Atom. My
conclusion after playing on the latter for a long time is that even when
playing with people or good will, who are trying for interesting RP rather
than to give each other a hard time, it can be very hard not to have
conflicts when there are no neutral systems to adjucate certain things. If
nothing else we could _certainly_ use some sort of common, abstract
descriptive coding for current abilities. Currently, characters on there
are described in text, too, and all too often, trying to fairly evaluate how
to pose during a combat that involves two theoretically skilled combatants
can be _really_ trying, when there's nothing to give you a real solid idea
of which is actually the more skilled.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw)
Subject: Re: Teleport & the Area Effect Advantage
>> STR lifts mass.
>
>In the same sense as "Energy Blast makes holes in walls". True, but
>(I would argue) not the PRIMARY purpose. The primary purpose of STR,
>in Champions, is hitting and squeezing things. (IMHO)
I'd really have to disagree with that; if all you want to do is hit things
or do a Continuous attack, there are much better ways to do it. TK is
almost always taken in one way or another for it's manipulative properties,
not it's damaging properties.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:51:06 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
At 01:37 PM 6/20/1999 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>How would you GMs rule on a power that doesn't have to use all its options
>all the time?
>
>For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
>turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
>or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
This is a really hard call. Generally, I'd just have the character take
two Ultra slots, one with Invisibility with fringe and the other with
Invisibility without fringe. This would especially be the case if the
Invisibility was already going into a Multipower.
However, I don't think that the way you propose is necessarily *wrong.*
- ---
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:49:15 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] [5th Ed] Fuzed?
>I believe this is it. About 80% of the people here use Hero for
Champions
>only (I think) so most of the traffic is Champs-related. There is a
>seperate Fantasy Hero list, but a lot of the posts there are
>duplicated here.
I have used HSR for lots of different settings from Old West to Star
Trek...
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
Read Star Trek- Outwardly Mobile At-
http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:22:21 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
>I've just been browsing through the mailing lists aailable through
>onelist.com; there are over 1300 listings under the Roleplaying Games
>category alone (including several dozen separate email games devoted
>to "Dawson's Creek Meets Buffy the Vampire Slayer"!) and I have to
>wonder about all this.
I know! I think that a lot of the WB Eole playing lists are the
responsibilities of a few people.
>One list that apparently was just created today is "AnitaRPG", which
will
>be a game based on the excellent Anita Blake novels. The creator of
this
>list explains: "Made it mainly cause I want to play in Anita's world,
and
>couldn't find an existing RPG totally of her world that suited."
>
>The woman couldn't find *any* existing RPG rules set that would allow
her
>to create a modern urban horror setting in keeping with these novels?
Or is it that she couldn't find a group to play it with?
>Seems unlikely. I'd guess it's more likely she's just one of those
people
>who like the acting elements of RPG games, but don't care for written
rules
>or game mechanics. This would be more of an email LARP than an email
>version of a "tabletop" RPG.
Errrr. Okay.
>Given that the Hero System leans more in the direction of 'rules heavy'
>than 'rules light', it follows that Hero System players aren't bothered
by
>a lot of detailed mechanics in their games, so my question for this
>group is:
>
>Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
>freeform PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work
>for you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
>
>Damon
Nope. I don't do this sort of thing at all nor do I know anyone who
does. Sorry
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:29:48 -0700
From: jayphailey@juno.com
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
> Well, I'm in one called the CAoL or Callahanian Army of Light that
>started out in alt.callahans and just got bigger and bigger. We find
>it's bothfun and frustrating at the same time. Characters range from a
>15th century Scotch Druidess, to a Telekinetic superhero, to a former
>servent of both the Time Lords and Vorlons, to a Moorcockian tradgic
>immortal hero, to a former God of Theives who accidentally destroyed
>hsi home dimention in a battle with Chaos. Because of the huge ranges
>in powers, a normal RPG system just would not work. A few people have
>tired making up the more powerful character with GURPS and Hero and
>ended up with characters costing THOUSANDS of points.
This is one of the reasons that I really tend to avoid online "chat"
styles of gaming because the two or three times I have experimented with
this stuff, some one always says something like :"MY god of power wanders
up to your character and dares him to do anything about it."
Munchkinism refined down to a pure and distasteful form.
> Now doing it free form allows for a lot more fexability in the
>development of the characters, if you want them to start developing an
>ability or a skill or something, your don't have to wait until you
>"level" or have the experience to spend to do it. Thus people spend
>less time thinking on what neat things they want to buy for their
>character, and more on what direction do I want the character to go
>in?
> Also a bennefit of a free-form RPG is that it becomes a more cerebral
>of a game. Dungeon crawls and hack and slash just become boring after
>a while when each person can just write out all their actions ahead of
>time. You have to have some sort of twists to keep theintrests of hte
>other people playing.
Okay.
> Now for the drawbacks. You end up having arguments about how things
>happen when people end up doing things that overlap and you have to
>sit down and figure out what post goes when and how that affects posts
>after it. There's also times someone tries to do something just TOO
>powerful for the plot and we have to stop and go "Nuh uh, I need this
><> way for the plot I have in mind, so you can't get <> effect. You
>could possibly do <> or <>..." and a few times this has lead to some
>hard feeling and bitterness, but we have to work past it. Usually by
>writing ourselves out for a while to cool off.
That sort of arbitration of time and chgaracter action and enforcement of
character play balance is the purpose and function of any game system.
Game systems are a form of language with which the imaginary charascter
and setting is described and manipulated.
> As a GM of a freeform game, you can end up with even more fantastic
>of things than you ever expected, but you can also end up seeing a lot
>of planning go into the toilet with one single post sometimes. It's a
>littleeasier to "herd" players in a particular direction with a
>tabletop game,but sometimes it's fun just to be able to sit back and
>watch some completely unexpected sub plot show up and develop.
I might have fun in this sort of game, except that I don't deal well with
having dreadnoughts threaten my characters.
Jay P. Hailey <Meow!> [ICQ: 37959005]
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http://www.geocities.com/~tesral/jay/
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:15:47 -0400
From: "Scott C. Nolan" <nolan@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Freeform PBeM RPGs
>>Given that the Hero System leans more in the direction of 'rules heavy'
>>than 'rules light', it follows that Hero System players aren't bothered
>by
>>a lot of detailed mechanics in their games, so my question for this
>>group is:
>>
>>Do you or any of the players in your group participate in the kind of
>>freeform PBeM games described above, and if so, how well does it work
>>for you, compared to more structured 'tabletop' RPGs?
I do. I use Hero for my FTF games, but I run a campaign using the Amber
Diceless Role-Playing System (than which few games are more freeform)
for my ongoing PBEM. I have ten players and have been running it for about
18 months now. You can check out some of the character's journals at:
http://www.erols.com/nolan/amber/serpent/sharper.htm
It works exceedingly well. Mechanics can be a difficult thing to simulate
over PBEM, especially if you want to have any sort of speed at all. The
game focuses much more on character interaction and less on combat.
This is not to say that I prefer one over the other, just that it works quite
well for the medium.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:29:53 -0500
From: "Michael (Damon) & Peni Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Partial Use of Powers
At 01:37 PM 6/20/1999 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>How would you GMs rule on a power that doesn't have to use all its options
>all the time?
As illegal, I'm afraid. I've never been enamored of the rule, but the BBB
is clear that a Power with an Advantage is a distinct Power; the Advantage
must always be used when the Power is used, and END cost is figured on that
basis.
It is explicity stated that an Advantage cannot be used alone (not what you
are asking about) and the above rule, from BBB page 90, certainly seems to
state that you cannot use a Power without the Advantage(s) bought for that
Power.
>For example, if a character had Invisibility with No Fringe, and wanted to
>turn the Fringe on, would you allow it? Would it take up the full 30 points
>or just 20 in a multipower multi slot?
No Fringe may be unique to Invisibility, but it's still an Advantage --
because it looks and acts like one. Under the rules as given, Invisibility
*with* a fringe effect would be a separate Power, and he'd need to have
bought it separately.
If all he bought was the No Fringe version, it'd take up the full 30
points, and I wouldn't allow the fringe to be turned on...though I would
most certainly allow the player to compromise his concealment by making
noise, knocking things over or otherwise making himself something of a
target despite his invisibility.
One way around this might be through the use of a variation on Variable
Advantage, which [with GM permission] might allow the character to swap out
"No Fringe" for some other Advantage of equal value. For example, I'd
probably allow a character to buy Invisibility to Normal Sight, and for +20
points allow the character to choose between No Fringe (+10 points) and
coverage of an entire Sense Group (+10 points). Total cost for this would
be 50 points: 20 for the base Power, +10 for the Advantage du jour, and +20
for the Variable Advantage (2x the maximum total Advantages the character
can apply to the base Power, which seems in keeping with the usual value of
Variable Advantage).
How weird is that? It's no more "canon" than what you asked about, but it
strikes me as being an adaptation of an existing rule rather than a direct
violation of one, so perhaps that's preferable?
Damon
------------------------------
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